Updated
Summary
Memorials and funerals are held in Uvalde, Texas, for seven of the 21 victims. Senator Chris Murphy discusses the latest attempt to get gun safety measures through Congress. The burden of being an LGBTQ teacher in Florida is discussed. Russian forces fortify their positions and gain some ground in Ukraine`s Eastern Donbass region. A mass shooting at a Tulsa, Oklahoma, hospital leaves at least four people dead.
Transcript
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone.
More than a week after the school massacre in Uvalde, Texas, the community and the nation continue to grieve.
And just tonight, we have learned of another shooting in Tulsa, Oklahoma, at a hospital. Authorities say multiple people were shot and at least three have been killed. The shooter is also dead. We will bring you the latest as soon as we have it.
Meanwhile, in Uvalde, memorials and funerals were being held today for seven of the 21 victims, including one of the two fourth grade teachers, Irma Garcia, along with her husband, Joe, who died of a heart attack days later.
Investigators say they are still trying to interview Uvalde school police Chief Pete Arredondo, the commander on the scene, although he claims he`s been in contact with investigators every day.
And, in Washington, meanwhile, lawmakers met to discuss a possible way forward on gun safety legislation. The senator leading those talks, Chris Murphy of Connecticut, will join me a little later.
But after yet another community has been devastated by yet another mass shooting, we begin THE REIDOUT tonight with a hard conversation about the gun, because we need to understand how we got here. And we cannot avoid talking about the AR-15 and the industry that gives murderers the tools to succeed in devastating fashion, because it wasn`t always like this.
In a remarkable interview with “The Washington Post,” former gun industry insider Ryan Busse explained how the AR-15 conquered the American market.
He wrote this: “Prior to about 2010 or 2012, there was never a gun sold in the United States commercial market that was desert tan color. Now a significant percentage of guns are sold in desert tan color. Why? Iraq and Afghanistan,” adding: “About 1999, in the Columbine shooting, the NRA set its political course. We`re in the culture war business. Then you have these wars happening, AR-15s, patriotism, Islamophobia, all of that happening in the culture at the same time.”
Busse was speaking specifically about the company that manufactured the weapon used by the murderer in Uvalde, Daniel Defense. It`s a company that makes no bones about its place in the culture war, leaning hard into right- wing Christian conservative red meat and hyper-militaristic branding.
Just days before its AR-15 was used in Uvalde, the company tweeted a photo of a young boy holding an assault rifle with a Bible proverb: “Train up a child in the way he should go. And when he is old, he will not depart from it.”
Its Easter advertisement, an assault rifle with a Bible and a cross and the caption: “He is risen.” Now, if you`re not churchy, that refers to Jesus, you know, the peace-loving Jewish guy who was put to death by the Romans.
And during Christmas last year, Santa Claus was depicted wearing a military helmet and smoking a cigar, enjoying his AR-15-style rifle. Imagine him coming down your chimney. Their video ads are similarly militaristic, featuring kids and adults using their weapons in what look like war games.
It`s an extreme way of capitalizing on a wholly manufactured sense of apocalyptic fear, deliberately created by people who have a financial and political motive to keep a certain segment of the population, namely, white working-class Christians, in a constant state of panic.
The gun industry, aided by the right-wing media ecosphere, creates this hyper-anxiety. Elites want to take your guns, while immigrants are being brought in to replace you, teachers are indoctrinating your children and turning them gay and against your ancestry.
It`s just constant baiting, building up the sense of apocalypse, and giving the AR-15 mythical status as the weapon of choice to fight back. Onward, Christian soldiers.
As Busse notes: “The idea of civil war/race war with heavily armed citizen patriots as your warriors is hardly under the surface anymore. I won`t go so far as to say they actually want people to die in a race war. It`s a political tool for them. They think they can use it to motivate and make people angry and fearful and hateful,” and then get them all armed up. Ka- ching.
Joining me now is Ryan Busse, the former firearms executive who was featured in that “Washington Post” piece. He`s the author of “Gunfight: My Battle Against the Industry that Radicalized America,” and Charles Blow, “New York Times” columnist and an MSNBC political analyst.
Thank you for being here.
Mr. Busse, I read your — the interview in the piece on you with kind of horror, but also kind of with an aha, because it did bring together for me a lot of the stories we have been covering on this show, this sort of constant fear of books and history lessons and books that have LGBT characters and immigrants and putting kids in cages.
It all kind of comes together around what you call this sort of sense of apocalypse. Talk a little bit about how the gun industry and companies like this particular company that we talked about have marshaled that into money.
[19:05:13]
RYAN BUSSE, AUTHOR, “GUNFIGHT: MY BATTLE AGAINST THE INDUSTRY THAT RADICALIZED AMERICA”: You`re exactly right, Joy.
And I lived inside that kitchen where this incredibly incendiary marketing and incredibly damaging politics was cooked up. The NRA figured out a long time ago, especially when Barack Obama started to lead in the polls in 2007, that it can make people do really irrational things, vote in irrational ways, if it could just gin them up with fear and hate, to the point where they were just one degree below boiling.
And when a populace is there, they will vote in irrational ways. They will vote against their own self-interest. They`re very, very volatile. And we – – and we`re living with the consequences now. And there are many AR-15 companies. The AR-15 really came into its own about that same time as this symbol of apocalypse and a way for many gun companies to make a fortune.
And people like Marty Daniel at Daniel Defense were really on the forefront of using this sort of fear and just outright Christian nationalism to drive both sale of the AR-15, but also further the NRA message that keeps normal, good people so fearful.
And if you doubt this, just wait. These 19 kids, they — that very killing will be used to spur more fear, because the message that will soon come out of the NRA will be, it doesn`t matter how bad this was, we have to stay stalwart, these people are coming for our freedoms despite this.
Like, that too will be converted to fear. And if that sounds an awful lot like Donald Trump, who could convert everything into fear, it`s because that`s exactly what it is. The NRA perfected this. And they handed it to the right.
REID: And just — to stay with you for just a moment, inside of the back rooms at the NRA or in companies like Daniel Defense, in the C suites, do they understand that they are creating a dangerous toxic brew here and not care, or are they sort of in denial?
Because I scrolled through Daniel Defense`s Instagram feed today, and it looked like preparing people for a war, as if this was Ukraine being prepared to fight the Russians. It looks literally like war games, and they`re shooting at human targets and playing — playing war.
BUSSE: Look, this has become a mixture of quarterly capitalism and election year quarterly capitalism, right?
The NRA cares only about winning the next election. That`s it. They don`t care about the downstream effects. It`s very much like pollution, right? They`re going to put it in the river, and they will let somebody else deal with the downstream effects.
Well, the downstream effects of this are our kids, right? There are these kids in the school. They are our political system. There are people marching on the Capitol with AR-15 flags. There are people intimidating — there are men intimidating lawmakers in Michigan with loaded AR-15s. Like, these are the downstream effects.
We can`t run from them anymore. Do I think they know it? Yes, they know it full well, but they win the — it`s just like a quarterly report at a big corporation. You make the quarter. You worry about the next day the next day, right?
REID: Yes.
BUSSE: I mean, you don`t worry about the effects until you get there.
REID: And then people act surprised that we have people that are feed — that culture war is fed into them, and then they pull off a mass shooting.
Charles, let me bring you into this, because I was having a conversation with my good friend Bishop William Barber, and he sort of did another ka- ching for me. He talked about the fact that, in 1915, “Birth of a Nation,” which was the first real blockbuster, and still is one of the most seen, most watched movies of all time, came on the scene just at the end of the era where Reconstruction died, and the troops were pulled out of the South in 1877.
And then, in 1915, a friend of Woodrow Wilson, the president at that time, translates this sort of — creates this film. And he screens it in the White House, and it becomes a huge film.
We`re going to play a little clip of it here just to show you what it looks like. It literally made the Klan come back after it had been squashed after the Civil War. It created a rebirth of the Klan. And, of course, lynchings followed, because you had this sort of depiction in the media of apocalyptic fear of this black menace.
So it`s not like this is a new thing. It`s happened before. What do you make of the fact that it`s happening again?
CHARLES BLOW, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I mean, I think your other guest is exactly right.
The NRA has figured out that this works. And there`s a blood pact between the Republican Party, the NRA, and the gun makers themselves. And there`s a cycle of money and power that is being turned all the time between those three parties.
And you see this — they create menace out of everything. One menace that they create that I don`t think we have touched on enough here is the menace that something will actually happen, that something will be done, that there will be an assault rifles ban.
And so when you see people like Barack Obama run and win, the background checks go through the roof, because people run out to buy guns, because they assume that something may happen that may one day prohibit them from having them.
[19:10:05]
And you see the same thing happen after mass shootings that get a lot of national attention. People run out and buy these guns all over again because they assume that something might happen to prohibit them from buying them.
In a way, Donald Trump was the worst thing that could have happened for the NRA and gun makers, because they didn`t have a foil, right?
REID: Right.
BLOW: And so they couldn`t say, he`s going to do it. So they had to make other enemies.
They had to say that the people are coming across the border are the enemy, or there`s going to be a race war, or whatever. So, you — they`re constantly trying to figure out who is going to be the best foil to gin up the most sales and the most anger in the electorate?
And that game is not new. As you just pointed out, they have been playing it forever. Conservatives in this country have been playing that game forever. But it is — this is a new iteration of it, and it is potent.
REID: And the thing is, I mean, I think about you can do — “Birth of a Nation” was very interesting way of ginning up that, as you said, then.
You had Nixon, who said, oh, you know what, we`re just going to — we`re going to demonize the hippies and the black and brown people with this war on drugs. But it was great politics to get more people to vote. There`s always a purpose for it, either a financial or a political purpose.
And I guess I will ask you the same — to comment, Charles, on the same question. The fact that there is no pause or sense of guilt or a sense of – – a pause morally in creating rage that then produces violence, does that surprise you? Or, at this point, should we stop being surprised?
BLOW: It doesn`t surprise me, because I think, on some level, they look at this as collateral damage, right, because 99.9 percent of these weapons — because there are millions of them out there — are never used in any sort of mass shooting.
And, in fact, even in community violence, the weapon of choice is a handgun, not an AR-15. So, the vast, vast, vast majority of people who own AR-15s are not using them in any sort of violent way…
REID: Yes.
BLOW: … have never fired them at another human being and probably never will.
And so they look at that, and they say, well, the vast majority of the weapons that we`re selling are not doing any of this damage, that these are the kooks.
REID: Yes.
BLOW: These are the weird offshoots who are doing this.
And we have to say, that`s all it takes. It only takes a fraction of a percent, when you have millions and millions and millions of these guns to do incredible damage.
REID: Yes.
And Ryan, Ryan Busse, let me ask you this sort of — I guess this is kind of the key question. Having worked inside the industry — and I will note for our audience that the shooter is dead. We have another mass shooting. And this came just before we started this program, that — word of another mass shooting, this one in Oklahoma.
The shooter is dead. Three people have been killed, at least three people. This was at a hospital, Ryan. There`s no place that we are safe now, because, as Charles just said, it only takes one kook armed to the teeth with a civilian version of an M-16 to kill a lot of people in a short period of time.
So how do we fight an industry like this that is a hyper-minority view, and that has a hyper-minority of politicians, but who are so committed to their goals that they won`t change anything? What do we do?
BUSSE: Joy, not very long ago, in the industry, about 15 years ago, its own industry regulations, rules that I lived under, rules that were imposed by the industry itself, would not allow tactical gear to even be shown or displayed or touched in its own trade shows, right?
They knew that this was not something that should be proliferated throughout our society. Anybody could see that the unhinged proliferation would lead to this sort of stuff. I mean, now we have Tulsa. I have done three different book events where they have been interrupted by mass shootings.
I wrote a book about the gun industry. And just like here tonight, we`re doing — we`re doing a segment on gun violence, and it`s interrupted by gun violence.
REID: Yes.
BUSSE: So, the industry`s own predictions have come true.
Now, what do we do about it? There are millions of reasonable, responsible gun owners who know that this is not right. They know it isn`t. And they have been too silent. They have let the NRA speak for them. They have let the NRA say that this is one big monolith. And it is not.
It is time for reasonable gun owners to kick the door open and to stand up and tell the Republican Party that it`s time to be decent, responsible citizens. That`s what has to happen to make a change.
REID: Yes, absolutely.
You can`t advertise cigarettes on TV anymore. There are things that societies can do when they want less of a thing. And I think we should all be able to agree, whatever party you`re in, that you want less of this thing, less of these murders and massacres of schoolkids and churchgoers and people shopping.
Like, you`re not literally safe anywhere, including in a hospital. That`s what we`re dealing with tonight.
We`re going to do the breaking news on that. A hospital has been shot up. How much more blood before people decide we have had enough?
Ryan Busse, thank you so much for being here. And thank you for the interview you did and the information you gave us all in that piece. And, Charles Blow, always a pleasure. Thank you both.
[19:15:01]
We are keeping an eye on tonight`s shooting in Tulsa, Oklahoma. At least three people have been killed. Authorities say the gunman is dead. We will bring you the latest information as it becomes available.
And up next: Senator Chris Murphy, the senator who is perhaps our best hope for getting gun safety measures through Congress, joins me next.
Plus, the incredible burden of being an LGBTQ teacher in a state where conservatives see you as some kind of dangerous other. Nicolette Solomon, now a former Florida elementary school teacher, joins me.
THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:09]
REID: Republicans continue to peddle dishonest solutions that deflect from the real issue, guns, and the real solution of gun reform.
Their latest push? Door control.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): One of the things that everyone agreed is, don`t have all of these unlocked back doors. Have one door into and out of the school.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): If the school was on lockdown, could the doors have been locked, where he couldn`t have gotten in? There are billions of dollars sitting out there after COVID for schools that we should redirect that money to allow the schools to use that to have one central point of entrance to protect these kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It`s the latest form of Republican gaslighting, that protecting kids from a mass shooting — shooter armed like they`re fighting a war could somehow be about, what, teachers, or a good guy with a gun, or even a good school with a door? It`s not.
And here we are debating these absurd theories that have been debunked since Columbine.
Joining me now, Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, a Democrat leading bipartisan negotiations over gun reforms.
And, as our previous guest — thank you for being here, Senator.
As our previous guest, who came from the gun industry at one point, noted, literally, our previous segment about guns was interrupted by yet another mass shooting, this time at a hospital in Tulsa, Oklahoma. You have been keeping count of the numbers that are going on.
We can`t even get through a 10-minute segment on gun reform, on guns and gun violence, without another shooting. I just want to get your thoughts on that.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Since Uvalde, we have had somewhere around 20 mass shootings, including now, it appears, at a hospital.
We have had more mass shootings this year than days in the year. They are happening at a pace that we have never, ever seen before in this nation`s history. And it is not coincidental to a dramatic increase over the course of the last few years in the pace of gun sales, which ultimately means a lot of guns end up in the hands of people who shouldn`t have them, including people who have criminal records, including people who have serious red flags.
And so this is just something that I worry the country is becoming used to, I worry the country is becoming numb to. And I hope that we can get some agreement between Republicans and Democrats, because, if we don`t, this pace will continue to increase. And, every single day, you will see one or two or three mass shootings in this country, something we could have never dreamed about just 10 years ago.
REID: Or after Columbine?
I mean, the reason — and I definitely — we are not numb to it. I definitely am not. I`m shaken by each and every one. And I know you`re not, just from your passion.
But you know who I worry is numb to it? Some of your colleagues. Let me play Mitch McConnell. This is what Mitch McConnell says every single time there`s a — there is one of these massacres. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): We will lift the victims and their families and the entire community in prayer.
My colleague from Florida will carry home the prayers of the whole Senate for victims and their families for the community of Parkland.
Psalm 34, that the lord is near to the brokenhearted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: And I shudder to say it. Joe Manchin, this time, came out after — after — and said: “I have never been in his frame of mind. I can`t get my grandchildren out of my mind.” He said: “This time around, it feels very different.”
That`s literally almost verbatim what he said in 2018 after Parkland. So the people who don`t want to do gun reform have a script, Senator. And I — forgive me if I`m not hopeful that, after these shootings happen and they just say the same script, and then add to it harden the doors and make only one way in one way out, which is actually unsafe, I don`t have a lot of hope.
Why should I have hope that you guys are going to be able to get something done?
MURPHY: Well, first of all, Joe Manchin is, frankly, in our caucus one of the leaders on the issue of changing our gun laws.
He was, of course, the author of the background checks bill compromise in 2013 that failed to even at that time when all of the Democratic senators` support.
But why is this time different? Well, I do think there is a different kind of reaction to the cataclysm of Uvalde. I think there are Republicans who are emotionally moved by what occurred. And I think that we have had 10 years since Sandy Hook to build up an anti-gun violence movement in this country that`s strong, that now has, frankly, more members and more money and more resources than the gun lobby has.
And so we`re in a fair fight when it comes to elections. That matters when we`re trying to get Republicans to the table. Maybe we won`t succeed. But I have never seen more Republicans at the table willing to talk about changes in our gun laws than I do today.
[19:25:06]
I was in an hour-long conversation today, hour-long conversation yesterday with Republicans, side conversations every morning and every evening. There`s something different happening right now. And I hope that ends up in a piece of legislation before the Senate.
REID: And we need a piece of legislation obviously to get 60 votes because of Manchin and Sinema. They won`t allow any reforms to the filibuster. So you need 60 votes.
Tell me, in your mind, as you`re talking to these Republicans, who you say — and I believe — listen, they have children and grandchildren too. They`re human beings. You can`t not be moved by it, by these deaths of little kids and their teachers.
What do you think is realistic to get through the Senate and get 60 votes or that would avoid a filibuster?
MURPHY: Yes, we need to get 60 votes.
We probably, frankly, need to get more than 60 votes in order to get this passed and to get Republicans comfortable with the product. I don`t think we have to get it all done at once. I think what we`re trying to do here is prove to Republicans that, if they vote for measures that tighten up the nation`s gun laws, the political sky does not fall.
In fact, they are going to get a lot more supporters than they will people attacking them back home. We have to prove that to Republicans. And so what are we talking about in this legislation? We`re talking about red flag laws. We`re talking about strengthening our background check system.
We`re talking about incentives for the safe storage of firearms. We are talking about mental health money as well. But we`re talking about a comprehensive package that will allow Republicans to take that step forward and learn that, in fact, there`s political gain to be had in attaching yourself to the 90 percent of your constituents who want us to do something about gun violence.
REID: The challenge, though, is there, is that Mitch McConnell has already come out and thrown two false flags at gun reform and said what he thinks is real gun reform is to do something about mental health — this is somebody who opposes Obamacare and wants it repealed — and to do something — I don`t know if — did he mention — oh, hardening schools, the same thing, doors and mental health.
They`re not going to legislate on anything that has to do with actual firearms. That`s a problem.
MURPHY: Well, let`s see, because I would argue that tightening the nation`s background check laws and passing red flag laws fits the test that Mitch McConnell put before us, because, when you tighten our nation`s background check law system, you are making sure that both criminals and people with significant histories of mental illness don`t get guns.
Red flag laws are used to stop people whose brains are breaking in some way, shape or form from holding on to the weapons that they are potentially going to use to kill themselves or to — others.
So, yes, I have never believed that this is a mental health problem. We don`t have any more mental illness than any other country in the world. But we have all the gun violence. So there`s something else that makes us different.
REID: Yes.
MURPHY: But I think that we may be able to find something that gets Senator McConnell`s support.
REID: Do you think that there should be a — the age to buy beer is 21? Should there be a minimum age of 21 to buy a rifle?
Because AR-15s are a rifle, they`re long gun, they`re classified like a rifle. You should be able to buy one in Walmart, until they themselves decided to stop selling them that way. But they`re a rifle, so you can buy them easier than you can get a Glock. Do you think that should change?
MURPHY: I do think that should change. And I think there`s a couple of things at play here.
One, you do have to look at the profile of these mass shooters, right? They are frighteningly similar from shooting to shooting. They tend to be in that 18-to-21 range. And by a strange sort of feature of American gun law, if you`re 18 years old, you can`t buy a handgun, because, for a long time, we thought that the handgun was the most dangerous weapon you could own.
But you can buy an AR-15. Well, we now know that AR-15s are, in fact, more dangerous, given the pace of mass shootings, than handguns may be. And so it`s just an effort to update the law. You can`t buy a handgun today if you`re 18, but you can buy a gun that can kill a lot of people much faster than a handgun.
Again, I don`t know whether there`s 60 votes in the Senate to get that done. But I do know there are a lot of Republicans talking about the fact that we need to do something about this profile of shooter, that 18-to-21- year-old male, that tends to do this over and over and over again.
REID: Well, if anyone can do it, the one person I believe actually could get it done is you.
So, Senator Chris Murphy, really appreciate your time this evening. We wish you Godspeed and hope that you`re successful in getting something done here. It`s critical all for all our families.
[19:30:01]
Thank you.
And, as I mentioned earlier, we are keeping an eye on yet another mass shooting. Three people are dead in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we will keep an eye on it on the other side of the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:35:00]
REID: It has been nearly 100 days since Russia began its invasion of Ukraine.
And, while Ukrainians have courageously defended their homeland, Russian forces are fortifying their positions and gaining some ground in Ukraine`s Eastern Donbass region. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says his country is losing 60 to 100 soldiers every day and needs more help.
And, today, President Biden announced a new $700 million weapons package for Ukraine. Writing in “The New York Times,” President Biden said that his administration will provide Ukraine with more advanced longer-range rocket systems and munitions, so that Ukraine can fight on the battlefield and be in the strongest possible position at the negotiating table.
That is not sitting well in Moscow, and officials there are accusing Biden of adding fuel to the fire. The Kremlin is also declining to answer what their response would be if Ukraine fired those rockets into Russian territory.
That`s something that Secretary of State Tony Blinken claims Ukraine will not do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The Ukrainians have given us assurances that they will not use these systems against targets on Russian territory. There is a strong trust bond between Ukraine and the United States, as well as with our allies and partners.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: With me now is Tom Nichols, contributing writer for “The Atlantic.”
Tom, thank you for being here.
And I will note for the audience that we are still following — it is ironic that we are still following the Tulsa latest shooting. So we have violence at home and violence abroad.
But Ukraine is still under very heavy bombardment from Russia. What do you make of the fact that we are sending them more aid, $700 million more? We`re going to put a little list up of the things that we`re sending. It feels like it is enough and not enough.
TOM NICHOLS, “THE ATLANTIC”: Well, the problem is that the Russians can simply keep pounding away at the Ukrainians because they don`t care about human life. They are willing to just grind away for small territorial gains day by day by day, hoping that Ukraine, the smaller power, will become exhausted, and that everyone in the West will become bored and eventually just kind of forget about this conflict.
The Russians are willing to play this long game and wait it out. And that`s — it`s — that`s a hard thing for the Ukrainians to deal with, which is why Zelenskyy wants to be able to shoot back in these artillery duels and to inflict casualties on the Russians as well.
But you`re right. It seems like a lot, but it`s not enough, because the Ukrainians are going up against a really large power with a lot of destructive capacity, and led by a president, led by a dictator who doesn`t really much care about human life, either of his own soldiers or of the people he`s attacking.
REID: So, what would happen if the artillery that we`re providing to Ukraine, if they were to shoot a missile that landed in Russia? What do you think would happen?
NICHOLS: You know, it`s hard to say.
And I can see why no one really wants to speculate about that, because I think it would depend on what the Ukrainians thought they were doing, what the Russians thought they were doing. Was it an accident? What was it targeted at? Was it targeted at all?
I think the Russians make a big deal about the sanctity of their own territory. Of course, they don`t really think very much about the sanctity of anyone else`s territory. But I don`t think there`s much point in the Ukrainians doing that.
I think Blinken — Secretary Blinken made the point about a bond of trust. But also, from a military point of view, from a strategic point of view, it just doesn`t make much sense, and especially if you`re trying to dislodge people that are attacking you.
So I think it`s just too hard to know what would happen, given the — so many ways that that scenario could play out.
REID: Well, and the Russians want us to think that nukes could happen, right? They use their possession of nuclear weapons as a threat.
You have a piece out now talking about the fact that we really don`t have a strategy to deal with nuclear-armed powers. There`s them. There`s also China. What do we do when countries that are rogue nations like Russia can also not even low-key threaten us with nuclear war or threaten the world with nuclear war?
NICHOLS: You`re absolutely right that the Russians want us to believe, they want the world to believe that everything runs the risk of nuclear — of a nuclear reaction.
And the problem is that we haven`t really thought much about this. I mean, we have had this — as I said in the piece, we have had this 30-year holiday from thinking about nuclear weapons and thinking about nuclear war. And I think the two fallacies that we could fall into is to believe the Russians when they say that everything causes a nuclear war, but also then to fall into this — to some of the thinking I think you saw in the early days, when people were calling for no-fly zones and other things, saying that nothing could cause a nuclear conflict.
[19:40:10]
There is inherently a danger here with a large nuclear-armed power attacking its neighbor, and that neighbor being helped and supplied by countries in the West. That is not a risk-free situation. The Russians want you to believe that it`s a lot riskier than it looks.
REID: Yes.
NICHOLS: But I think people here at home need to understand that it`s not zero risk either. And we need to think about that.
REID: Yes, unfortunately, yet another thing we need to be worried about and think about.
Tom Nichols, always a pleasure. Thank you very much. Very much appreciate you.
NICHOLS: Thank you.
REID: Cheers.
OK, let me bring in MSNBC correspondent Gabe Gutierrez for the latest on the shooting in Tulsa, Oklahoma, tonight that`s left at least three people dead.
Gabe, what do we know, other than the fact that the shooter is apparently dead?
GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Joy.
Well, there are several fast-moving developments here. Just within the past few minutes, we have heard from local police that at least three people are dead, plus the gunman, so a total of four people dead, including the gunman.
He is — has not — or he or she has not been identified yet. And we`re still trying to find out more information. But police say the gunman — that police opened fire on the second floor. So, there was some activity here on the second floor. Investigators and police response teams are now going room to room carrying out a search of this hospital.
Again, that hospital is St. Francis Hospital in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The shooting broke out some time around 5:00 p.m. local time. And, again, we`re just starting to get that information that at least three people are dead, plus the gunman, described only as a person with a rifle. Again, it`s not clear how the gunman died exactly. And, of course, a motive that has not been identified.
Now, Joy, we are now hearing more and more about these incidents over the last several days, of course, this coming fresh on the heels of the Uvalde massacre, but, again, this time at a hospital, a shooting at a hospital, with at least three victims. The gunman is also dead, according to police, the information just starting to trickle out now — Joy.
REID: And, very quickly, just before I let you go, Gabe, do we have any sense or is there any reporting on the victims, whether we`re talking hospital staff or whether we`re talking about people who were in the hospital for some other reason?
Do we have any more information who, at least generally, general information who these victims were?
GUTIERREZ: At this point, not yet. We don`t have ages of the deceased. We don`t know if — what their relation may or may not have been to the gunmen.
So, all that information, as you know, Joy, comes out in the next — in the coming minutes and hours. Right now, all we know, though, is that at least three people are dead, and that`s the latest, according to police, plus the gunman.
No idea on a motive, what — if the gunman may have been there for a while or if he just stormed in the hospital, again, St. Francis Hospital in Tulsa.
REID: Yes.
GUTIERREZ: We`re still waiting to get those details from authorities — Joy.
REID: Thank you, Gabe.
And if you get the information in the next 15 minutes, raise your hand, and we will get back with you.
Gabe Gutierrez, thank you.
Up next: the Florida teachers trapped right in the middle of the don`t say gay mess. One of those teachers joins me next.
We`re back in a minute.
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REID: It is pretty clear that American schools have become a dangerous place for our children.
And, lately, it feels like politicians are choosing to focus on all the wrong things. Just take a look at Florida, where politicians will not pass laws to protect your kids from the very real threat of school shootings. But they will ban books, ban you from saying gay, and punish Disney for criticizing Florida Republicans for targeting LGBTQ kids.
Unfortunately, teachers are caught in the middle of all of this. They are expected to create a space for kids to blossom and grow, while politicians demand that they take up arms against violent intruders, keep silent about our history of racism, and ignore LGBTQ issues.
Mind you, Florida teachers are expected to do all this on a measly salary that pays roughly $50,000 a year. It is no surprise that many of these teachers are quitting.
Nicolette Solomon, a fourth grade teacher in Miami-Dade County, is one of them. She left her job after a — after the Florida legislature passed the don`t say gay law. Solomon, who is a lesbian, told NBC News that, even after surviving the pandemic, this law, the don`t say gay law, was the straw that broke the camel`s back.
Nicolette Solomon, former Miami fourth grade teacher, joins me now.
And I would like to note that today is the first day of LGBTQ Pride Month.
So, happy Pride. Thank you for being here.
NICOLETTE SOLOMON, FORMER FLORIDA TEACHER: Thank you.
REID: As I`m reading that, I am catching my throat a little bit, because fourth grade teachers are very much on our minds right now. We just had two fourth grade teachers get slaughtered in Uvalde, Texas.
So your job is not only important because you — your former job — as you`re teaching our precious children, but also the risk of death is real in class, in a classroom in American schools.
So I just have to get you to just tell me how it feels to, despite all of those risks, for not a whole lot of money, you were driven out of teaching.
SOLOMON: Yes. There were a lot of reasons. And, like I said, it was the straw that broke the camel`s back.
[19:50:03]
With the climate in Florida, it was just — it was too much. And with the don`t say gay bill, I knew that it was only going to get worse. It was already bad. And this just — I didn`t see it getting better.
REID: Did you — had you stayed, were you afraid that if you, for instance — I mean, when my — sort of — when my youngest son — when we moved to New York, his teacher had a picture.
And he told me oh, we got to meet my teacher`s husband. And his teacher was a man. And he brought his picture of him and his husband and their child to school. If you had done that, do you think you would have gotten sued or fired?
SOLOMON: That was the fear.
And I wouldn`t have done that, just because I already was very scared. I never came out to my students. They actually found out on their own. They`re fourth grade. They`re 10-year-olds. They have access to the Internet, and they found my wedding video on Google, not even my social media. So they found that and then came to me and asked me.
And I wasn`t going to lie to them, of course. And I told them, yes, that`s my wife. And the children accepted me. The parents accepted me. I was very grateful for that.
But, yes, if I came out and said that I was, I would be very scared of being sued or fired, or even them finding out on their own. Would I be sued or fired, even though I didn`t say anything?
REID: Yes.
It is a frightening sort of thing to have — to have to talk about in the 21st century, that you would be afraid of just talking about your family and your life, for fear of being fired or breaking the law.
But I also — I raised my kids in Florida. The schools have always been challenged. Florida ranks pretty low in terms of reading scores. And now it`s even lower. After the pandemic, reading scores are even lower. We`re talking about only about a quarter of children reading on grade level. We`re talking about third and fourth graders.
Do you think that Florida is spending too much time focusing on social issues and book banning, and not enough time teaching children to read?
SOLOMON: One hundred percent. I think that is one of the biggest issues, is, we`re only focusing on these social issues and making it political, when it shouldn`t be political.
This is about teaching kids to read and having them be able to read what they want to read. And focusing on book bans because it doesn`t align with one person`s views and religions, it doesn`t make sense. And we are losing, because we are dropping in our reading scores.
And it`s scary to raise a child in Florida.
REID: Absolutely.
Have you ever had a child tell you that a book damaged them or scared them, a book on their grade level?
SOLOMON: Not anything LGBTQ-related.
It`s funny, though. In the textbooks, actually, there`s some stories that shouldn`t be there that are more damaging than any of the LGBT books that I have seen, where they make fun of a name, or it`s kind of like a Cinderella story twist, where they behead the princesses.
So, that shouldn`t be in the curriculum.
REID: Yes.
SOLOMON: But having — a penguin having two dads is banned?
REID: Yes.
SOLOMON: That doesn`t make sense to me.
REID: It doesn`t make sense to, I think, any one sensible.
SOLOMON: Yes.
REID: Nicolette Solomon, thank you for teaching for as long as you did teach. And wishing you all the best. Thank you.
And don`t go anywhere, because up…
SOLOMON: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
REID: Thank you.
And, up next, I will fill you in on the Republican plan to use an army, an army of poll-watching vigilantes to protect American elections from widespread voter fraud that only exists in their imagination.
Stay with us.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have been so pleased to hear of all you vigilantes out there that want to camp out at these drop boxes. We put the word out today that, if you`re going to come and be like a mule and stuff ballot boxes, this time, you`re going to get caught. So don`t try it.
We`re going to be out there. We`re going to have hidden trail cameras. We`re going to have people parked out there watching you. And they`re going to follow you to your car and get your license plate. It`s going to happen, so don`t try it.
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REID: That was an Arizona State senator seriously suggesting that people stalk and harass people who vote by drop box.
And while this example may be extreme and, you know, totally illegal, it`s unfortunately only one piece of a terrifying and much more sophisticated network of Republicans intent on using virtually nonexistent voter fraud to steal as many future elections as they can.
It`s been Steve Bannon`s fever dream ever since the insurrection failed to overturn the election, and to flood the — to flood the election precincts.
And now, in a stunning piece of reporting, Politico has uncovered tapes of Republican operatives strategizing on how to overturn votes in Democratic precincts.
Here`s the RNC director for Michigan at a poll worker training session for Republican activists last October.
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MATTHEW SEIFRIED, RNC ELECTION INTEGRITY DIRECTOR FOR MICHIGAN: We are trying to recruit — truly, it`s going to be an army, right? We are going to try to recruit lawyers.
We`re going to have more lawyers that has — than have ever been recruited, because, let`s be honest, that`s where it`s going to be fought, right?
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REID: An army. Sounds extremely democratic.
Those sessions included slides with the laughable claim that the RNC wants to make it easy to vote and harder to cheat, as well as detailed instructions on how to challenge a voter.
It is worth noting that when asked about the strategy, an RNC spokesperson initially said recruits are not being trained to challenge voters.
Politico also obtained tapes of the legal counsel of an election group that helped attempt to overturn the election meeting with activists from multiple states discussing plans for identifying friendly district attorneys who could stage real-time interventions in local election disputes.
But the most revealing part of the reporting is the RNC Michigan official saying that he`d achieved a goal set last winter. More than 5,600 individuals had signed up to be poll workers. And, several days ago, he submitted an initial list of more than 850 names to the Detroit clerk.
Needless to say, this is not normal small-D Democratic behavior. And if we just let this happen, we may not have a democracy to fight for anymore.
If there was ever a time for high voter turnout, it`s since November.
And that is tonight`s REIDOUT.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts now.