Updated
Summary
“Austin American Statesman” releases video of Uvalde, Texas shooting and police response. Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy (D-CT). NBC News confirms that Trump allegedly called a member of the White House support staff who was talking to January 6 Committee.
Transcript
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: There is an enormous unfathomable human tragedy at the center of the story. Thank God this ten-year-old girl did not have to carry the pregnancy to term.
And let`s be clear eyed about what the antiabortion Republican Party wants. They want a world in which that child would be forced to carry her rapist baby. And that is the world and the country they are making.
That is “ALL IN” on this Wednesday night.
MSNBC PRIME starts right now with Ali Velshi.
Good evening, Ali.
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: It is worth underscoring the efforts that people went to, to undermine that story, and they continue to. They continue to say it`s not true, that Joe Biden was out of line when he said, it is not probable.
I appreciate the passion you brought to that, friend. Have a good, night we will see you tomorrow.
HAYES: You too, man.
VELSHI: Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. We have to guess that we are and excited about tonight. Senator Chris Murphy and Beto O`Rourke, the former congressman and current candidate for Texas governor. We`ve got a lot to ask both of them.
But first, one revelation that we got yesterday about Donald Trump`s attempt to overturn the 2020 election did not come from the big public hearing yesterday about the January 6th investigation. Rather, it came from “Mother Jones Magazine”, which contained leaked audio of this guy, Steve Bannon, former White House advisor, and double layered buttoned down shirt aficionado.
The leaked audio is from a few days before the 2020 presidential election. Now, rewind a little bit, and remember with me. A couple months earlier, Steve Bannon had been arrested on charges that he had been bilking unsuspecting donors out of their money by telling them that their donations were going toward building a wall on the southern border, when in fact the money was going into Steve Bannon`s pockets.
Bannon was arrested on this luxury yacht off the coast of Connecticut. It is a yacht belonging to an exiled Chinese billionaire, who is kind of a patron of Bannon`s.
In the leaked audio we got yesterday, Bannon, out on bail, is in a meeting with a bunch of his Chinese billionaire friends. Fine crew folks who worked for this Chinese billionaire sprawling online network, peddling far-right disinformation. And at this meeting a few days before the presidential election, Bannon is filling them in on how election night is going to go down.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP AIDE: What Trump`s going to do is just declare victory, right? He`s going to declare victory. But that doesn`t mean he`s a winner. He`s just going to say he`s a winner.
The Democrats — more of our people vote early that count. There is vote in mail. And so they`re going to have a natural disadvantage, and Trump is going to take advantage of it. That`s our strategy.
He`s going to declare himself a winner. So, when you wake up Wednesday morning, it`s going to be a firestorm.
If Trump is losing by 10:00 or 11:00 at night, it`s going to be even crazier. No, because he`s going to sit there and say, “They stole it. I`m directing the attorney general to shut down all ballot places in all 50 states.” He`s not going out easy. If Biden is winning, Trump is going to do some crazy (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
(END AUDIO CLIP)
VELSHI: Which is, in fact, pretty much out had happened.
I mean, Steve Bannon got the time of night slightly off, he did not say was stolen at 10:00 or 11:00, he waited until after 2:00 a.m. He didn`t direct the attorney general to shut down polling places, but as we saw in yesterday`s hearing, about six weeks later at an Oval Office meeting, he entertained the idea of having the military seized all the voting machines.
But the fact is, Steve Bannon clearly seemed to know the basics of the plan and what it would lead to. “Mother Jones” reports that elsewhere in the leaked audio, Bannon says that any chance for a, quote, peaceful resolution of this is probably gone. He said, quote, this is a revolution. This election just triggers more fighting, end quote.
And look, you did not have to have special no knowledge or psychic powers to know that Trump was likely going to contest the results of the election. The foreshadowing was pretty heavy. We were all forewarned about the so- called red mirage that would appear on election night, that early returns would look good for Trump, because of the order in which get ballots are counted, which would allow him to claim that the victory was being stolen from him as his leads started to be eaten away by Democratic ballots, exactly with Steve Bannon described as, quote, our strategy.
It`s not like Trump him self was shy about talking about this in the weeks before the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: The only way we are going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. Remember that. It`s the only way that we`re going to lose this election. So, we have to be very careful.
[21:05:00]
The only way they can take this election away from us, is if this is a rigged election.
The Democrats are trying to rig this election, because it`s the only way they`re going to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: So, there may be a tendency to hear this leaked Bannon audio, and think, whatever, we knew Trump was thinking about doing that.
But in terms of holding Trump accountable for his actions between reelection day and January 6th, especially in terms of thinking about whether Trump will have criminal liability for his actions, there is actually a really big difference between, the one hand, Trump was never going to accept that he lost, and it was grasping at anything he could after the election.
And on the other hand, Trump had formulated a plot to stay in power if he had lost the election, and began carrying that plot out on election night. Based on what we learned in yesterday`s hearing, there are reasons to believe that Steve Bannon was not just spitballing when he was describing Trump`s plans to deny the election results. He may very well have heard about those plans from Donald Trump himself, because that is certainly what`s seems to have happened a couple months later when Trump`s plans for January 6th happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): On January 5th, the day before the attack on the Capitol, tens of thousands of people converged on Washington. Well, certain close associates of President Trump privately expressed concerns about what would occur on January 6th, other members of the presidents inner circle spoke with great anticipation about the events to come.
The committee has learned from the White House phone logs, that the president spoke to Steve Bannon, his close adviser at least twice on January 5th. The first conversation they had lasted for 11 minutes.
Listen to what Bannon said that day after the first call that he had with the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. It is all converging and now we are on to the point of attack, right, the point of attack tomorrow. I`ll tell you this — it`s not going to happen like you think it`s going to happen. It`s going to be quite extraordinarily different. All I can say is strap in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MURPHY: From those same phone logs, we know that the president and Mr. Bannon spoke again on the phone this evening, this time for six minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Here`s the thing. If you heard Steve Bannon make those remarks on January 5th, and they weren`t a secret because many of us did hear them that day. You might just think he was pumping up his listeners, or engaging with bravado, or, quite likely running another scam like his build a wall fund-raiser. We are going to overturn the election, send us cash.
But it entirely changes the way that you hear his words that day, when you know that he had just had an 11-minute conversation with Donald Trump! Quote, is not going to happen like you think it`s going to happen, end quote.
Left unsaid there is because Donald Trump just told me the secret plan for how it is going to go down.
Remember, we also learned yesterday that Trump and his allies apparently planned in advance to march on the Capitol, but deliberately kept that planned secret so that it would appear that the march to the Capitol was spontaneous.
The point here is not about Steve Bannon, it`s about Donald Trump. One of the goals of the January 6th hearings is clearly to place Donald Trump at the center of the decision-making around the actual plot to overturn the election culminating in the attack on the capitol. It was Donald Trump who spoke to Steve Bannon the day before the attack, prompting the Bannon to tell his supporters that all hell was going to break loose the next day.
It was Donald Trump who, on January 5th, told the chief of staff to call Mike Flynn and Roger Stone, allies who had connections to the right wing militias who led the Capitol attack. It was Donald Trump who gathered his staff in the Oval Office the day before the attack and asked them with the best route was for the mob to cape to the Capitol the next day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Every one of these elements of the planning of January 6th isn`t independently serious matter. They were all ultimately focused on overturning the election. And they all have one other thing in common: Donald Trump participated in each assistant substantially and personally. He oversaw or directed the activity of those involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: The January 6th investigation is laying out the best case we possibly can. Not just for Donald Trump`s responsibility for the Capitol attack, and the plot to overturn the election, but for his criminal liability for it.
Joining us now to discuss is congressional investigation reporter for “The Washington Post” and MSNBC contributor, Jackie Alemany.
Jackie, good to see you. Thank you for being with us tonight.
One of the takeaways from this hearing was learning about Donald Trump`s hidden plan to direct his supporters to the Capitol, despite knowing, as we learned from Cassidy Hutchinson, that many of them were armed.
[21:10:12]
Now, you summarized this in the post. Let me ask you. Do you have any insight into how Trump pivoted from wanting to seize voting machines on the night of December 18th, 2020, to convening a mob via tweet hours later?
JACKIE ALEMANY, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: That is still a gap that has not been filled in by the committee despite the litany of revelations that have been revealed yesterday.
But one thing that I found interested in watching the hearing, is that it was quite noticeable that most of those people that were featured in that seven-minute montage that was brilliantly put together to recreate the unhinged meeting that happened on December 18th with the crazies versus those that were actually working at the White House at the time — Sidney Powell, Mike Flynn, the Overstock.com guy, Patrick Byrne, versus Pat Cipollone, Eric Herschmann, Derek Lyons, and some others, was that most of those people they did testify behind closed doors to investigators did not specifically and explicitly reference the former president.
Instead, they were throwing food at each other, describing their actions with each other. Rudy Giuliani pretty profanely describing how the White House aides to President Trump were acting. But noticeably none of them actually described the former president`s actions what he was saying, what he was feeling, how he was going to weigh in until the end, when Pat Cipollone addressed the elephant in the room and said the former president still wanted to go ahead and appoint Sidney Powell as special counsel.
That being said, you know, there were still — despite tons of color provided, there was still some evidentiary gaps, if you are looking at it from the Department of Justice`s purview, which is how President Trump ultimately made that pivot and that leap to realizing that some of the avenues that he had been previously considering were closed, and that he then needed to look towards the march on the Capitol as a way to hold on to power.
VELSHI: And the pivot is intriguing. The committee went out of its way yesterday and Liz Cheney in particular went out of her way to articulate the idea that at some point, everybody was — everybody of the same mind was telling Donald Trump that he had lost the election. He cannot keep pretending that he did not think that he had lost the election, and the committee was pointing out that Donald Trump is responsible for the actions, that he deliberately took.
Liz Cheney wants to be clear, don`t think about it as a mission in those 187 minutes or days leading up to it, it was an act — it was a commission, it was Donald Trump trying to overturn an election that he knew he had lost.
ALEMANY: Yes. That is exactly right, and that was a not so subtle jab at the department of justice. A message to them that their bottom approach has been misguided, according to Liz Cheney, at least.
And from a prosecutorial approach, it is important for the Department of Justice and hence, some of why I think it can explain some of the committee`s strategy here in trying to show that Trump knowingly was trying to overturn the election results, despite knowing that there was no fraud evidence, that there would not be any fraud identified by these people who were trying to find it and that he was told over and over again that there was not any evidence of election fraud by his senior most advisers.
But this sort of test between the Department of Justice and the committee was certainly noticeably yesterday in Liz Cheney`s comments, where she was, as you just noted, trying to paint this picture of but, yes, there might have been people in the White House who are now pivoting strategies. They have moved from the deny-and-delay to trying to say that the former president was influenced by bad actors around him.
Liz Cheney has preemptively cut right through that, saying at the end of the day, this is the president of the United States that is responsible for his own actions.
VELSHI: The committee was also making the argument that the tweet, the infamous tweet promoting the protests on January 6th by Donald Trump made the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, two extremist groups that had no previous history working together, join hands in coordination for this attack on the Capitol. Why is that significant?
ALEMANY: It is extremely significant, because it really does exemplify his call and response that we have been talking about, which is when the former president put something out on the Internet and into the world, there was immediate activity and the response from violent extremist forces.
[21:15:11]
And that, essentially as you heard in the words of the whistleblower from Twitter, or former Twitter employee, that Trump was well aware of the impact that his words and his tweets were having and sort saw it in real time explode, and really snowball into active coordination. It is also notable because these are two groups that, you know, historically, and in their past, have not been alive on interests. We are actually brought together by a Trump ally, Roger Stone, someone who was able to do that coordination for him.
So that sort of brings the committee closer to connecting the dots there, and connecting former President Trump directly to the violence. It was a Trump campaign person, and a Trump ally, Roger Stone, who are actively involved in bringing together these groups and helping them coordinate their plan on January 6th to foment this insurrection.
VELSHI: Jackie, good to see you. Thank you for your time tonight. We always appreciate it.
ALEMANY: Likewise.
VELSHI: Congressional investigations reporter for “The Washington Post”, Jackie Alemany.
So after several public hearings about January 6, we learned a ton of new information, but is that enough? As I was just discussing with Jackie, is that enough for the department of justice to make a decision on prosecuting Donald Trump? We are going to have more on that ahead.
Also, Senator Chris Murphy and Beto O`Rourke will join us live.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:21:15]
VELSHI: It`s been almost two months since a gunman in Uvalde, Texas, took an assault style rifle into the Robb Elementary School and shot 19 fourth graders, and two teachers, dead, injuring several more. The story of that tragedy has evolved almost every week since. Families of the victims, residents of Uvalde and journalist trying to cover this massacre had been peppered with misstatements and altered narratives from members of law enforcement in that city.
But yesterday, we got the clearest picture yet of what`s happened that day. “The Austin American-Statesman”, along with this TV news partner station, KVUE, in Austin, obtained and published surveillance video from the school, that shows what the gunman did and how police responded that day.
It`s generated fresh outrage about the length of time that elapsed before they finally enter the classroom where the gunman was. Now the full video is an hour and 22 minutes long. We are going to play portions of it for you, highlighting key moments from that day, but obviously, before we play this, I have to warn you, this is very difficult to watch.
So if you would like to look away or leave the room for a moment. Now is the time. And we will note that you will hear several rounds of gunfire, but not the sound of children yelling or crying which is on the actual tape. The Austin`s “The Statesman” made the editorial decision to remove the sounds of the kids screaming.
OK. Here we go, first, you see the gunman enters the building unobstructed at 11:33 a.m. He checks the hallway before approaching two classrooms. Now watch this, a child walks out of the bathroom, and before the child around the corner, you can see it in the second. They see the gunmen, they hear him open fire.
Child ones out of the, frame child to the gunman enters the classroom, and continue shooting.
Officials say, the gunman fired 100 rounds in total. The gunman fired stops and starts over and over. About three minutes, later small group of police officers entered the building and approach the classroom where the shooter is firing at students and teachers. They retreats down the hallway, after our gunmen fires a burst of shots. Watch this.
One officer touches his head, the back of his head, seemingly concerned that he was hit, over the course of the next 70 minutes. More federal, local, and state officers arrived. They got body armor, protective shields, guns, and equipment. They walk back and forth in that hallway. Not answering the classroom where the shooter periodically fires more rounds.
We know some officers asked for keys to the unlocked classroom. They still waited. They`ve been brought in a sledgehammer. They still waited. An hour and 14 minutes after the first officer arrived on the scene, the officers pushed into the classroom, and killed the gunman, an hour and 14 minutes. That`s where the video ends.
A group of officers finally firing and answering the classroom as another officer, you can see there in the middle of the screen, keeps a separate group of officers back.
Hours after “The Statesman” released this video, the Uvalde City Council held a meeting. The council voted to accept the resignation of the Uvalde school police chief, Pete Arredondo, the incident commander the day of the Robb Elementary School shooting and ostensibly, the guy in charge in the hour and 14 lag time in response.
He was by the way recently elected to the Uvalde City Council before the shooting. You can hear meeting attendees applauding his resignation.
There was also heated exchange between the mayor, members of the council, and Uvalde residents after the mayor commented on “The Statesman`s” decision to release the video.
[21:25:02]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR DON MCLAUGHLIN (R), UVALDE, TEXAS: The way that video was released today is one of the most chicken things I have ever seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mayor said chicken, it was taken (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
AUDIENCE MEMBER: What about the cops? Are they chicken (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to handle that.
AUDIENCE MEMBER: You said that they did a good job? Do you still think they did a good job?
MCLAUGHLIN: Adam, I`m not going to get into an argument with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: The executive editor of the “Austin-American Statesman” published this explanation for releasing the surveillance video, quote: This tragedy has been further tragic by changing stories, heroic-sounding narratives proven to be false and a delay or in most cases rejection of media requests for public information by law enforcement leaders, public officials and elected leaders.
But there are heroes, elected leaders, public officials, law enforcement officers, survivors of the massacre who want the truth out. The truth always wins, maybe not on our clock, but the truth always prevails. And this is the reason that we publish alongside KVUE.
Joining us now is Beto O`Rourke, former Democratic congressman who`s running for the governor of Texas against the incumbent Republican Governor Greg Abbott.
Congressman, good to see you. Thanks for being with us tonight.
BETO O`ROURKE (D), TEXAS GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Thanks for having me.
VELSHI: Your reaction to this? You and I in fact spoke right after the event in Uvalde. At that time, we didn`t have a tenth of the story that we have now. We knew the reality that the gunman had killed the students and teachers.
I`ve never seen a story like this that change is so much where the information is so inaccurate, and now we see this video that lays waste to the narratives that we were hearing from some of the police officers and officials in the days after the shooting.
O`ROURKE: You know, I was just and you`ve all day this past Sunday, and I had a chance to meet with many of these families, made the parents who lost their kids, met with the children`s brothers and sisters, met with the relatives of those two teachers who gave their lives trying to protect those children in their classroom.
And to a person, they want the same things, they want to make sure that the memory of their children, of their family members, is never lost. They want to make sure that there is justice to the point that you are making tonight, that the truth comes out, all of the truth and the facts, and that there is accountability at the end of the day for what people did, and for what they failed to do. Those families have waited day after day, week after week, now more than a month later, and still nothing.
And they are learning about it through the news media one day at a time, one fact at a time. We just further exacerbating the suffering that they are feeling, the torment that they are going through right now.
And the third thing they have all said to me, is that they don`t want any other family to ever feel the way that they do now. They want action. They want changes. They want to make sure that our kids all of our, kids are safe, going back to school.
In El Paso, my hometown, our kids will be returning to school in 17 days. That is when the El Paso Independent School District begins a new school year. And nothing, nothing has changed in this state since that shooting in Uvalde, since the shooting at Santa Fe High School, or since so many other school shootings or acts of gun violence in the state of Texas.
The only thing the governor has done is to make it easier for people to carry guns, publicly, without a background check, without any training, or any vetting, whatsoever. What those families deserve right now is justice, and it deserve leadership. And all of us in Texas, and those of us who love Texas, need to stand up for those families right now, and fight for them, until we get them what they deserve.
VELSHI: So, two things have changed, since that shooting. One is up there has been some movement, I`ll be modest, at the federal level, the first movement that we have seen in decades.
And the second thing is, opinions in Texas have changed. A state that has relatively widespread support for guns and the Second Amendment, the support for stricter gun laws is up 20 points since that shooting. And the support for universal background checks is through the roof. The support for raising the minimum age to buy a gun to 21 is up 48 percent.
So public opinion was always in support of safer gun laws, in Texas, and now the current governor is completely out of step with changing public opinion.
O`ROURKE: You are absolutely right. And those changes that we are seeing in congress, and my thanks to your next guest, Senator Chris Murphy, for being a leader on that and making it possible, that was really produced by the grassroots leadership of groups like, Brady, and Giffords, and Moms Demand Action and March for Our Lives, and literally hundreds of thousands and now millions of Americans who are standing up to be counted at this moment of truth.
You will be pleased to hear that when we were there on Sunday, in Uvalde, we were also there to march with these parents, and with these young students who had organized a march for the community. Hundreds of people turned out. They didn`t rally in the plaza, that it serves as a memorial for those victims, demanding action, demanding changes to our gun laws.
[21:30:01]
Common sense stuff like universal background checks, or red flag law, or safe storage laws, most of us can get behind that as you pointed out. The polling indicates that. But we all feel it`s in Texas, we just have leadership right now that won`t take that action and that is why we need change.
VELSHI: When you and I talked in person, in Uvalde, you felt confident that there is a tipping point. There is a straw that breaks the camels back in Texas. Texas has lead in these suppression of voting. Texas has lead in the suppression of reproductive rights. And Texas continues to lead and unusual and out of step gun laws.
Do you think that has an effect in the end, because Republicans keep winning statewide races?
O`ROURKE: Absolutely, it does. Our current governor has not only badly failed these families, and the community of Uvalde, but he is letting down this entire state. You have to look no further than our electricity grid where they are issuing conservation notices because as the temperature rises, we cannot depend on the power and the energy capital of the world — a state that has a total ban on abortion with no exception for rape or incest, and the governor who is completely out of line with the long proud traditions of responsible gun ownership in Texas.
Like many Texans, I grew up with guns in the household, but we grew up with an understanding of the responsibility and accountability that comes with owning a gun, and using a gun. He has beholden to the NRA, and to the gun lobby. He should instead be focused on these families and listening to them right now as they ask him to do the right thing as we enter this next school year.
The governor could call a special session about legislature right now, and get those laws passed. But he won`t. And we must ask ourselves why? And then we must do what it takes to change the person in that office so that we can have real leadership that looks out for all of us.
VELSHI: Beto O`Rourke, thanks for joining us tonight. We always appreciate your time. Beto O`Rourke is a former congressman who is running against the incumbent Governor Greg Abbott for the governor of Texas — thank you for your time tonight, sir.
O`ROURKE: Thank you.
VELSHI: We just talk about Chris Murphy. He joins us live next. We got a lot to ask him.
And later, what the Department of Justice is learning from the January 6th hearings and whether or not it will be enough for them to charge Donald Trump.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:36:56]
VELSHI: President Biden arrived in Jerusalem today, kicking off a four-day tour of the Middle East in what maybe one of the most geopolitically complex trips abroad of his presidency. In just these four days, Biden is expected to both attempt to slow Iran`s nuclear program, and to rebuild America`s relationship with oil rich Saudi Arabia, somehow, without helping to rebuild the image of Saudi Arabia`s human rights abuse and crown prince, which is one serious diplomatic balancing act.
When Biden ran for office in 2020, he vowed specifically, and some would say correctly, that he would make a pariah out of Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman for his role in the vicious murder of “The Washington Post” columnist Jamal Khashoggi.
And just last year, the Biden administration released a U.S. intelligence report they concluded that the crown prince himself personally approved Khashoggi`s murder.
But before Biden even makes it to Saudi Arabia, officials from the administration are already fending off questions about whether this trip is really about getting help from Saudi Arabia on oil prices, telling “The New York Times” that while, quote, no explicit deal is expected to be announced on a racing Saudi oil production, out of concern that it might be coming across, as unseemly, a reward for easing the crown prince`s return to the diplomatic fold, that is likely to come in a month or two.
As for Iran, a large part of the reason Biden is in Jerusalem today is to try and get a buy in from Israel on starting talks right renewal of the Iran nuclear deal, something that Israel currently opposes.
But even that is diplomatic 3D chess following the death of a Palestinian- American al Jazeera journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, who was killed in the West Bank in May. The State Department says that she was likely killed by accident by Israeli troops, but the U.S. has not carried out its own investigation into the American citizen`s death, 24 senators and 57 Congress people are demanding that they do so. Our next guest is one of these senators.
But the Biden administration so far has been reticent to investigate. President Biden spent decades on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. If anybody can walk this tightrope, it should be him.
Joining us now is Chris Murphy, the senator from Connecticut, a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
Senator, good to see you, and while we had that conversation about guns a few minutes ago, I should tell you. When you last talked about that legislation, you expressed hope that it went through, and it did. That is a big deal in America. So, congratulations on getting that piece of bipartisan legislation done.
I do want to talk about this trip. Last week, President Biden published an op-ed in the Washington Post explaining his decision to go to Saudi Arabia, essentially acknowledging the diplomatic win that this is going to be for Saudi`s crown prince, despite his human rights record, but saying that it is a worthwhile trip, given the importance of the partnership with Saudi Arabia when it comes to oil, regional security, when it comes to building a coalition in the Middle East, with regard to Iran.
Do you buy that?
[21:40:00]
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): Well, it`s the president`s prerogative to travel anywhere he sees fit to meet with world leaders. I have long argued that the president of the United States should be meeting with allies and adversaries. Saudi Arabia is most traditionally an ally, but certainly very often they carry out foreign policy objectives that conflicts with ours.
My contention is that if the president is going to make this trip, if he is going to sit down across the table from Saudi leadership, he should get some significant concessions. Concessions about the Saudis political repression, there are over 100 political prisoners locked up in Saudi Arabia. We should demand that those prisoners be released.
Every day that the United States aligned ourselves with a country with this kind of brutal campaign of political repression, it hurts our image abroad. But also, commitments when it comes to the Saudis behavior in the region. There is a cease fire in this horrific war in Yemen that the Saudis have been perpetuating, that the United States has occasionally been helping them perpetuate. We need a permanent end to that war. The Saudis have a lot to say about that.
So, I think that the president`s right to go into the Middle East here, often meeting with regimes in the region who are sometimes with, us sometimes against us. But I hope that they are going to get some significant concessions from the Saudis while he is there.
VELSHI: Let me ask you about this letter. You are one of the senators leading the charge for a U.S.-led investigation into Shireen Abu Akleh`s death, the Palestinians have to conduct an investigation. They say that it was the Israelis. The Israelis, other than the first few days, have stopped denying that it was them.
Why isn`t important that the U.S. conduct an independent investigation?
MURPHY: Well, first and foremost, anytime an American dies overseas, we should apply the highest degree of scrutiny to make sure that we get to the bottom of the story, as to how an American citizen was killed. In this case, given that it might have come at the hands of the foreign security forces, that inquiry is even more important.
We are simply asking that we do a thorough review, a review that we are not confident that the Israeli authorities have done themselves. So, I think that it is important to get to the bottom of this, even if the bottom involves some unsavory truths about an important ally of the United States, and what they may have done, or elements of the security forces may have done to contribute to this American`s death.
VELSHI: Senator, you joined families from Uvalde and Highland Park, in D.C., today, pushing for a ban on assault weapons. Just weeks ago you discussed getting the largest — and in some cases, the only piece of gun control legislation in decades through Congress. Your Republican partner for that Republican John Cornyn has said that he is done. He does not want more legislation. He does not see more legislation getting through Congress.
What do we do now? That was good legislation, it was meaningful legislation, it was a big change. What happens next? What happens when more things happen, and people one more and Republicans say we`re done?
MURPHY: Well, listen, Senator Cornyn and I were engaged in a month of 24/7 negotiations around the most significant pieces of gun violence legislation in 30 years. I can understand why he wants a break.
But when I know is that the demand for action isn`t abating around this country. It is increasing. What I also know is that the strength of this movement is really what moved the needle, 15 Republicans supporting this bill supporting a bill the significant would be unthinkable years ago.
But Republicans came to the conclusion that there were more political gains to be had voting for this bill, and standing with 90 percent of their constituents backing up the gun lobby. And that movement of families, of parents, who wants additional changes to gun laws, is just going to become stronger after Uvalde, after Highland Park.
So, I`m realistic. I don`t know that we are going to come back and pass another major anti-gun violence bill in the next 30 days, but I don`t think that these parents are — and I know that these parents will not stop, and I think the Congress will do more. That`s what happens with the social change movements. Once they get a taste of victory, they come back for more and more, and more. They usually get more, and more, and more.
VELSHI: Senator, we appreciate your time as always. Thank you for covering so much ground with us tonight. Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, he is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
So, during yesterday`s January 6th hearing, we learned the January 6th investigators have referred a matter of potential witness intimidation by Donald Trump to the Justice Department. Well, just in the past hour, there has been breaking news that may give us a clue as to who the target was of Donald Trump`s intimidation. We`ll have the story on that next.
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Stay with us.
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REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): After our last hearing, President Trump tried to call a witness in our investigation. A witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. That person declined to answer or respond to President Trump`s call, and instead alerted their lawyer to the call. Their lawyer alerted us.
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And this committee has supplied that information to the Department of Justice.
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VELSHI: All right. That was just one of the explosive new revelations from last night`s January 6 hearing.
Donald Trump personally attempted to contact a witness in the investigation, which is an act of potential witness tampering that we now know has been conveyed to the Department of Justice.
Now tonight, we got breaking news about that witness. Just within the hour, CNN has reported that the witness Trump is alleged to have called is, quote, a member of the White House support staff who was talking to the House Select Committee. NBC News has not independently verified that report but according to CNN, the call was made after former Trump White House aide, Cassidy Hutchinson, testified publicly to the committee. The White House staffer was in a position to corroborate part of what Hutchinson has said under oath, according to the sources, end quote.
Cassidy Hutchinson`s included multiple explosive revelations about the former president`s behavior during his time in the White House including accounts of the president becoming physically aggressive with members of the Secret Service, and throwing food across the room that White House staff had to clean up.
Joining us now is the former federal prosecutor Joyce Vance.
Joyce, good evening to you.
Let me first are by getting your reaction to the news. It`s important because of the potential for this to be witness tampering, right? The idea that whomever it, is in this case is a pretty important person, the former president of the United States calls someone, who might know something about what Cassidy Hutchinson said, whether or not the former president knew that this person was in touch with the committee or not. Tell me about why this is a problem and what you think about the story that is just developing?
JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Right, the core of this crime witness intimidation is the notion that you cannot have someone who is perhaps a target or a subject of an investigation, attempting to use any sort of inappropriate pressure to either hinder, delay, prevent, or alter a witness`s testimony. It`s a very broad statute. It tries to contemplate all of the possible circumstances where someone could try to tamper with the witness and perhaps, importantly here, it even reaches an attempt to intimidate a witness that`s ultimately it`s not successful.
So that sort of pops a context for us to appreciate this breaking news tonight, that what we would be learning about would be a call made by the former president, someone on the White House support staff, and that is a really unlikely call for him to make. And just the normal course of operations, this is someone who spoke dismissively as people as being near coffee boys in the past.
So, unlikely, that he would have a sort of sustained friendship here. And that feeling I think is confirmed by the fact that whoever the target of this call was reached out to his or her lawyer.
VELSHI: And in just that sort short on a time that you are delivering that on, so we have not confirmed that this story is true. The CNN reporting, MSNBC has now confirmed to be true.
Talk to me about the point that you are just making. There might be a situation where Donald Trump or anybody who is even largely a subject to an investigation would go would have an ongoing relationship with someone who may or may not be talking to the committee. Where does that lie between, I was just calling him, versus witness intimidation? And how does that get establish?
VANCE: That line depends upon the government`s evidence. For instance if there was a voice mail message that was left probably unlikely since Trump`s notoriously shy about leaving any kind of a trail, but if he left a message that said, listen I want to talk to you before you testify. I am concerned.
Well, that might be some helpful evidence. But something that we note here is that because Liz Cheney announced that they had referred this to DOJ, that means that there is no more proactive investigation going on. Either DOJ has evidence of witness tampering, or they don`t, it`s not possible to do anything undercover at this point. Perhaps to have a phone call take place that would be taped.
So whatever the situation is, it should be clear from DOJ`s point of view, remembering that this statute is meant to be very broad and very expensive, because at the heart of our criminal justice system is the need to find out the truth about situations. And if witnesses can be intimidated, can be threatened, and can in other ways, being courage to not tell the truth. Then our system breaks down.
So, DOJ has a history of pursuing these cases progressively, interestingly, both Roger Stone, and Jared Kushner`s father were prosecuted for witness intimidation. It is not a crime that DOJ tends to sit on when the evidence is there.
VELSHI: Joyce, we did have your schedule to talk about other things having to do with the investigation but it was through a good portion that you were here as this news broke, and we appreciate you helping us analyze it as always.
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Former federal prosecutor, Joyce Vance, we always appreciate your time. Joyce, thank you.
VANCE: Good to be with you.
VELSHI: And we have one more story to get to tonight, how someone born in the 1800s is making history in the halls of the United States Capitol in 2022. That`s next.
Stay with us.
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VELSHI: Tonight, history was made in the U.S. Capitol statutory hall with the unveiling of a statue honoring the educator and civil rights leader Mary McLeod Bethune.
Here is the first statue of an African American to represent a state in the hall. She`s representing the state of Florida, and replacing one of the states previous statues of a confederate general. It`s a historic and long overdue tribute to a remarkable woman.
Mary McLeod Bethune was born in 1875 to formerly enslaved parents. She was one of 17 children who lived in this cabin in South Carolina. She started working in the fields at the age of five, until she was ten when she started school.
She was a bright student. She excelled, winning scholarships for advanced education. She became a teacher, and in a few years, opened her own school for African-American girls in Daytona Beach, Florida. That institution would later become Bethune Cookman College, now called Bethune Cookman University.
In addition to her work in education, Mary McLeod Bethune was also a civil rights activist. Mary McLeod spent most of her formative years in fields, and went on to accomplish all of that and more. It is fitting that there is a statue in our capital honoring her, with her famous words inscribed on its base. Quote: Invest in the human soul. Who knows? It might be a diamond in the rough.
That does it for us tonight. We will see you again tomorrow.
It is time now for `THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL”.
Good evening, my friend.