Updated
Summary
Tonight, President Joe Biden issued an address to call for action on gun violence in America. Fulton County, Georgia District Attorney Fani Willis, who is investigating President Trump`s efforts to overturn the 2020 election in Georgia, had begun subpoenaing witnesses to appear before a special grand jury, starting this week.
Transcript
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, “ALL IN”: Even from his — Donald Trump`s own son, who apparently did not have daddy`s number at that point.
Olivia Beavers, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
OLIVIA BEAVERS, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, POLITICO: Thanks, Chris.
HAYES: That is “ALL IN” on this Thursday night,
MSNBC PRIME starts now with Mehdi Hasan.
Good evening, Mehdi.
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thank you very much.
Imagine not having daddy`s phone number, but thank you.
HAYES: Sad. Sad story.
(LAUGHTER)
HASAN: That`s just — something to think about tonight.
Thanks to you all at home for joining us this hour.
It was February the 14th, 2018, Valentine`s Day. On that day, a 19-year-old mass shooter armed with an AR-15 semiautomatic rifle, and multiple magazines of ammunition entered Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School and murdered 17 people. That shooting sparked a nationwide youth lead movement for new gun safety legislation.
But a year later, little had been done at the federal level to curb gun violence. By Valentine`s Day, 2019, then President Donald Trump was trying to push attention back to his pet issue, building a wall to stop immigrants.
At the time, Trump was threatening to declare a national emergency in order to try to build his precious border wall without congressional approval. It was that threat from Trump which prompted this counter-threat from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): If the president can declare an emergency on something that he has created as an emergency, an illusion that he wants to convey, just think of what a president with different values can present to the American people.
You want to talk about a national emergency? Let`s talk about today, the one year anniversary of another manifestation of the epidemic of gun violence in America. That`s a national emergency. Why don`t you declare that an emergency, Mr. President? I wish he would.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Why don`t you declare that an emergency, Mr. President? If Trump declares a national emergency, at the border, she said, just think about a president with different values can present to the American people.
The very next day, Donald Trump did declare a national emergency, at the U.S. southern border, and the very next year, the nation did elect a president with very different values.
Tonight, that president issued an address to call for action on gun violence in America. He did not clear declare a national emergency. But here is some of what he did say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: After Columbine, after Sandy Hook, after Charleston, after Orlando, after Las Vegas, after Parkland, nothing has been done. This time, that can`t be true. This time, we must actually do something.
We need to ban assault weapons and high capacity magazines. If we can`t ban assault weapons, then we should raise the age to purchase them from 18 to 21. Strengthening background checks, and enact safe storage law and red flag laws. Repeal of the immunity that protects gun manufacturers from liability. Address the mental health crisis deepening the trauma of gun violence and as a consequence of that violence.
These are rational, common sense measures, but my God, the fact that a majority of Senate Republicans don`t want any of these proposals even to be debated or come up for a vote, I find it unconscionable. Let us finally do something.
God bless the families who are hurting. God bless you all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Let us finally do something, President Biden tonight calling for a host of new gun safety measures, and urging Congress, Republicans in Congress, to make them happen. And the president is right, only Congress can make those things happen.
But there are also things that he himself can do to try to curb gun violence, and things the president can threaten to do himself if Congress does not act. President Biden has already used his executive authority to crack down on the proliferation of so-called ghost guns which are untraceable, and can evade metal detectors.
But gun safety activists have pointed out that there are still many more things that the president can do without Republican votes in Congress, without Joe Manchin`s help. He can widen the definition of gun sellers to include private individuals, and gun show attendees, and ending their exemption from federal background checks. He can create a new office of gun violence protection in the White House, to coordinate efforts across the country.
He could lift the ban on releasing gun tracing data from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, data which can help show where guns are flowing in this country, especially criminal guns.
[21:05:06]
He can boost local enforcement of existing red flag laws, and, of course, you can follow Nancy Pelosi`s 2019 suggestion, and declare gun safety a national emergency, with all the new powers and some funding that entails.
Those are executive orders he can do. All of that, though, rather frustratingly remains, tonight, in the president`s back pocket.
For now, the hopes of changing America`s gun laws continues to rest with Democratic lawmakers in Congress, trying to strike a deal with Republicans. The same Republicans who have lit spent the last two weeks gaslighting the nation about the problem we actually face.
A lot of hay is being made about the fact that Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell has reportedly dispatched Texas Republican Senator John Cornyn to work with Democrats on a new proposal to combat school shootings. But, listen to the way that Mitch McConnell actually talked about those negotiations, when asked about them back in his home state of Kentucky, earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): We have a group led by Senator Cornyn, and Senator Murphy on this Democrat side discussing how we might be able to come together to target the problem of mental illness and school safety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: We`re going to come together to target the problem, he says, which is mental illness and school safety. Republicans have gone out of their way to try to not make this about guns, did not even mention the word guns.
For the past week, we`ve watched them time and again redirect this conversation to be about school safety in the abstract, saying we need to harden the schools, and limit the number of doors each school has. Those arguments were ludicrous to begin with, but they were completely destroyed yesterday, when a gunman walked into a medical center in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and killed two physicians, a receptionist, and a patient. We now know that the shooter was armed with a 40 caliber semiautomatic Smith and Wesson pistol that he purchased on Sunday, and, of course, an AR-15 semiautomatic assault rifle, which he purchased on the day of the shooting, approximately one hour before he walked into that medical center.
Will Republicans now tell us that we need to harden hospitals as well? Is it too easy to walk into a hospital in America, too many doors? What about a church? Or a synagogue? Or a Sikh temple? Or a grocery store? Or a bowling alley? Or a movie theater?
The problem facing Democrats at this moment is how to engage Republicans on this issue, when Republicans refused to admit with the problem is.
Today, Democrats and Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee debated a new package of gun safety bills, introduced by a House Democrat. During that debate, Florida Republican Congressman Greg Steube decided that after a string of mass shootings, it would be appropriate to start showing off his own guns while zooming into a congressional hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GREG STEUBE (R-FL): This gun would be banned.
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): I hope the gun is not loaded.
STEUBE: I`m at my house. I can do whatever I want with my guns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: I can do whatever I want with my guns.
How should Democrats debate reasonable gun safety measures, when that is what the other side of the debate looks like? How do Democrats make it clear that Republicans are oppositions issue into any limitation on guns in America is not just wrong, but dangerous?
Well, here is one example of how it can be done, from Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Nineteen kids are dead, 19 children are dead. And so, to my Republican colleagues, I ask, who are you here for? Are you here for our kids? Or, are you here for the killers?
Because if you were here for the kids, you do all you could to protect the next school shooting that is about to happen. We know it`s going to happen in America.
But if you`re hill here for the killers, you would do everything to make it easier for the next school shooting to happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: So, is that the way the Democrats should be taking on Republicans in this fight? And it is a fight. Or, does the safety of the American public reflect rely on good faith attempts to negotiate with a party that has demonstrated its bad faith, on this issue, time and time again?
Joining us now are: Kris Brown, president of Brady, a nonprofit organization advocating for gun control reforms, and Ezra Levin, cofounder and executive director of Indivisible, a national movement of local leaders promoting progressive values.
Kris, Ezra, good to see you both. Thank you for making the time.
Kris, let me start with you. What is your immediate reaction to President Biden`s speech tonight? Was it enough, dare I ask, to address this national emergency?
KRIS BROWN, BRADY PRESIDENT: I think President Biden just gave the speech of a lifetime, to be honest. And, it`s one that he has prepared over many years.
[21:10:03]
First of all, he really acknowledged the huge emotional toll this kind of mass shooting is taking on the national populous all across the country. He was with the families. He shared the experience of being with them and feeling their pain. And also understanding why is so many Americans across this country are wondering why, why do we allow this to happen?
This is the slaughter of children, in schools. And I think it was a hugely important speech. I think that part of what we need to do in this country, is really re-frame what we`re talking, about here. Meanwhile, we`ve been talking about this throughout the night.
This is about public safety. Let`s not kid ourselves. It`s about anything different than that. Actually, it`s about enforcements of laws that they already have on the books, that the National Rifle Association has systematically stopped from happening. It is animating a huge amount of fear, but it is not about fear related to firearms, it`s about fear of easy access to dangerous weapons, weapons of war, the many parents across this country, we are hearing from are saying, I`m afraid to send my children to school.
And I think the hundred senators that are looking at this, and trying to internalize this, really have to understand — Americans are sick and tired, and they are afraid. And they want this Congress to do something that is actually a pretty conservative idea. Focus on public safety, this is not hard.
HASAN: Kris, just to follow very quickly. You and other activists have praise the president for using executive orders on things like ghost guns, and he has doesn`t along with executive orders. As I mentioned in the introduction, he could still do more, right? He can crack down on gun, shows and the definition of gun sellers. He could declare a national emergency.
BROWN: Absolutely, he can do that, and we want him to declare gun violence like public health emergency. We`ve been very clear on that.
But, I think he`s also right. We are a system of government, and most Americans looking at this are wondering whether the government works except for the United States Senate, because so much is sitting there. It is right for him to say that we need laws passed because executive action can be challenged by the National Rifle Association.
So he has done a lot, his administration has done a lot. It`s right also for Congress to act, because I want to make a really important point here because Congress is not active, to establish a national framework for things like background checks, the entire risk of gun violence is shifting to American parents, to American citizens.
HASAN: Yes.
BROWN: We are seeing these problems being meted out across the country, and we are demanding change.
HASAN: So, Ezra, let me bring into this conversation. The Senate, in my view, ridiculously is on vacation right now. But a small bipartisan group of senators is meeting to discuss whether they can reach consensus, on very basic, very limited sets of policies to address gun violence, including an expansion of background checks.
How confident are you that they will get it done?
EZRA LEVIN, CO-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INDIVISIBLE: I`m not confident. We`re talking about the Senate here. But just because I`m not confident, doesn`t mean that it`s impossible. We know that, because of Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin, we can`t get rid of the filibuster, they`ve refused to join in with the other Democrats to do that, that means you need ten Republicans on board.
So, am I saying that we need Mitch McConnell to do us a favor? No. Mitch McConnell is not going to do us a favor. The Republicans in the Senate are not going to do us a favor. But what we do know, what Mitch McConnell and the Republicans knew when they pursue some amount of political threat, when they think. Oh, if I don`t back down, I`m going to suffer politically.
And, so what`s our job is in this moment, I`m not talking about Democratic senators, I`m not talking about the president, I`m talking about all of us, all of us watching at this moment. Our job is to change the political calculus of those Republicans. That means, join up with March for Our Lives on June 11th, on protests all across the country.
And it means taking a cue from the folks in Indivisible Houston, who found had crews in a restaurant and said, hey, why are you against common sense gun violence prevention laws? Get behind us in this.
We need everybody. If you`ve got a Democrat or Republican, getting involved in this moment, and changing what is politically possible.
HASAN: So, you mentioned, Ezra, the Ted Cruz incident. We have tape of that, that wasn`t activists from your group confronting Senator Ted Cruz, right after he attended the NRA convention that took place three days after the shooting in Uvalde.
Let`s have a look at that clip, and we`ll get your reaction on the other side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN HERNANDEZ, ACTIVIST: You can make it harder for people to get guns in this country. You know that. No, you know that. But you stand here, you stand in the NRA convention.
[21:15:03]
It is harder, it is harder when there are more guns to stop gun violence.
SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): When you put violent, ignorance, and hatred —
HERNANDEZ: It is not ignorance.
CRUZ: You don`t know what you`re talking about.
HERNANDEZ: We are in this country and there are guns everywhere. There are kids dying. Why is this so hard? Why does this keep happening? And why did you come here to the convention to take blood money? Why? When 19 children died, 19 children died. That`s on your hands. That`s on your hands.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Ezra, we are not aware of public response from Ted Cruz to that clip or incident yet. But I have to ask, as much as I enjoy watching that, and I`m sure many people at home is like yes, that is a thing to do.
Can you really shame people who have no shame?
LEVIN: Oh no. You can`t shame Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz is probably going to fly over to Cancun next week. I`m sure, that`s what he likes to do.
The point here is not to shame Ted Cruz. The point here is to make it very, very clear to everybody watching. Not just folks watching us right now, but everybody at home watching who is not a partisan on this issue. It`s not a Republican, or Democrat, or independent, they just want to common sense gun laws.
And they are watching interactions like this between Ted Cruz and his constituents, where Ted Cruz says, you don`t know what you`re talking about. We need to face a reality in this country that there is a marginal, radical MAGA extremists faction of the Republican Party that is controlling policy for the entire nation.
They are a radical dangerous minority. We are the normal majority. And if we take the fight to them, and this is on guns, this is on abortion, this is on contraception, this is on teachers, this is on schools, this is on our democracy.
We are on the majority, they are in the minority. If we take the fight to them, it makes it more difficult for them to prevent us from doing popular things.
HASAN: We are almost out of time. Last to you, Kris, less than 30 seconds left. Quick question.
You`ve been campaigning on this for a long time. Do you feel like we are in a different moments, even after Parkland, or Sandy Hook?
BROWN: I think that we are in a moment where Americans are seeing mass gun violence every day, gun violence, and are not feeling safe in their communities. When we have 50,000 Americans who have died over the last year since the House passed HR8, the Brady expansion law and the Senate hasn`t acted. And we have nearly 2,400 children killed, people are afraid, and they want change.
And yes, it is different. We are hearing from gun owners, we are hearing from Americans across the country. They want something to happen, and I think the senators are really feeling that.
HASAN: Like all of our viewers watching at home, I do hope and pray that you are right, and this time it`s different.
Kris Brown, president of Brady, one of the oldest organization advocating for gun control in America, and Ezra Levin, cofounder and co-executive editor of Indivisible, thank you both.
Up next —
BROWN: Thank you.
HASAN: Up next, the Republican solution to school shootings as being to cut down on doors, and to send more armed police officers into schools. But the data shows, that doesn`t work and has terrible consequences.
More on that with Democratic Congressman Jamaal Bowman, straight ahead. Do not go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:22:56]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROTESTERS: Do your jobs, do your job!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HANNITY: Hundreds of parents and teachers including a Texas teachers union march to senator Ted Cruz`s office in Austin, Texas, this week to protest the senator`s proposed solutions to mass shootings and schools like Robb Elementary, in Uvalde, Texas.
Solutions like this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: We know from past experience that the most effective tool for keeping kids safe, is armed law enforcement on the campus.
Have one door, into and out of the school, and have that one door armed police officers at that door.
At that single point of entry, we should have multiple, armed police officers.
(APPLAUSE)
Or if need be, military better and trained to provide security, and keep our children safe.
What stops armed bad guys is armed good guys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HJASAN: The thing is, he is wrong. What past experience and data actually show us, is that armed good guys are not the answer to armed bad guys, adding more police officers to schools does not work. Just look at the few recent mass shootings in this country. School policing increase in popularity after the 1999 shooting at Columbine High School that killed 13 students. The school resource officer was there that day. He shot at the gunman and missed.
In 2018, there was an officer on duty at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in parkland, Florida, when a gunman killed 17 students. He and his bulletproof vest state outside the building, where the shooting happened, safe from danger while students were shot dead.
And then, of course, in the Uvalde, Texas, shooting that killed 21 children and teachers. Texas Department of Public Safety says that the school resource officer responded to a 911 call about an armed man, the officer drove right past the shooter and mistook a teacher for the gunman.
[21:25:04]
That is not to mention the Uvalde school district police chief who reportedly told the 19 officers position outside the classroom where the gunman was killing students, not to enter. Aside from that, anecdotal evidence of school resource officers or good guys with guns, not stopping the bad guys with guns, there is also this.
Here is a report from last year published in the journal of the American Medical Association. This study examined 133 incidents of school shootings, and attempted school shootings between 1980 and 2019. It found that armed guards were not associated with the significant decrease in rates of injuries and deaths. In fact, the rate of death was higher in schools with armed guards. I`m good guys are not the answer to this problem.
And it`s not just adding school resource officers to school buildings doesn`t work, it`s actively harmful to students, especially those who are not white. Not only are schools with more Black and Latino peoples more likely to have officers roaming the hallways, increasing the arms of officers assaulting students, police are more likely to punish black students harshly come back pretty common among kids, criminalizing them before they even finish great school.
Black girls in particular are disproportionately criminalized, even arrested at school at higher rates than their counterparts.
Take the 2015 case of a 16 year old student, in South Carolina, who refused to leave her classroom when her teacher reprimanded her for using her phone in class. This is how the school resource officer responded to her refusal to leave. And I have to warn you, this is difficult to watch.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
HASAN: Horrific.
After he dropped that student from her dad, he told another student quote, I`ll put you in jail next.
Kids are supposed to feel safe in school. All kids. Worrying that at any minute for any minor infection, a police officer will physically force you to put your hands behind your back is not safety. It`s assault. It definitely does not stop the threat of school shootings.
Yet again, and again, after school shootings. We see right-wing politicians in this country try to cynically convince us, that we should put more armed officers inside schools, to protect the kids.
Joining us now is Democratic Congressman Jamaal Bowman of New York. After the massacre of 19 students and two teachers in Uvalde, Texas, he had some blood words for lawmakers who refuse to do anything about guns.
He said on Twitter, quote: Republicans in the Senate helps kill a classroom of children. This makes 240 mass shootings this year alone. All of which they are complicit in. NRA donations are more valuable than life to them. They must be voted out of office.
Congressman Bowman also has specific insight on this, quote/unquote, hardening schools. He is the former principal of the Cornerstone Academy for Social Action, a middle school in the Bronx.
Congressman, thank you for making the time tonight.
Can I start by asking you of your reaction to President Biden`s speech tonight? Is it enough, in your view, as a lawmaker in Congress?
REP. JAMAAL BOWMAN (D-NY): I think everything the president called for needs to be done. We need a ban on assault weapons immediately. If Congress is not brave enough to move forward with the ban, and by Congress I mean Republicans in Congress, then we need to raise the age. President said 21. I say 25. I think those two things absolutely need to happen.
You know, Republicans, they claim to be the pro-life party, but there are more like the pro-death party. For anyone to think that we need more law enforcement, in our schools, based on the data and the narrative and the history that you just shared, and we need more guns in the schools. They must be out of their minds. We know that more guns leads to more shootings, and leads to more deaths. That is just the bottom line.
HASAN: Congressman.
BOWMAN: They are so cowardly — yeah, go ahead.
HASAN: No, I`d just going to jump in on your rather apt phrasing. You said they are not the pro-life party they are the pro-death party. When you look at COVID, when you look at school shootings, it`s an apt phrase.
But those are strong words that a lot of your fellow Democrats don`t want to use. And I mentioned earlier in the show, Congressman Swalwell, has spoken out. We`ve seen Congressman Gallego very bluntly accused some Republicans of being baby killers. You`re saying party of death.
That`s one part of Democratic Party speaking very forcefully. And then you have the president saying well, they are rational Republicans that we can work with. You have others in your party that you still think there is a bipartisan deal to be done.
Where is the Democratic Party on this when it comes to dealing with Republicans on an issue like gun control?
[21:30:02]
BOWMAN: So, Republicans, specifically Republicans in the Senate, do not want to move the country forward on any important issue. Whether it`s the Women`s Health Protection Act, the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act, or common sense gun reform, or many of the other bills that they stuck in the Senate, they do not want to move the country forward. And they support policies that lead to the proportionate killing of children in our country.
Kids are the number one victim of gun violence in our nation. Black and brown people are disproportionately killed by guns in our nation. They are the party of the great replacement theory, and much of this feeds into that when you talk about the perspective of Black and Brown people.
But they are also a sick party that allows our kids to be slaughtered on a consistent basis. Well over 3,600 school shootings since Sandy Hook. What – – we are a sick nation!
HASAN: So let me ask you this, Congressman, before we run out of time. You heard me talked about school resource officers and the impact on Brown and Black people. You, as U.S. 11-year-old, you`ve spoken about this, before. You and I discussed this before and you say — you talked about how you were assaulted by police as an 11 year old. You then went on to become a principal at an elementary school. Two pretty important personal form of experiences.
Talk about police in schools, and what happens if you have more place in schools.
BOWMAN: Well, I can talk about, when I was a dean`s student before becoming a principle, and the police consistently targeted my students, because of their, quote/unquote, misbehavior. But they targeted them aggressively, more aggressively because they were Black or Brown.
And I, myself had to stand toe-to-toe, in between my students and police, to stop police from arresting my students. And unfortunately, when they are more police in schools, because of the explicit, an implicit racism that still exists within law enforcement that we don`t deal with consistently, Black and Brown kids are going to continue to suffer. We are going to continue to support the school of the present pipeline.
There are many answers that need to be pursued here. Ban on assault rifles, more mental health support for kids, and more support for teachers overall, and preparedness in terms of recognizing the red flags that are happening in our schools. But not more officers and more guns, Republicans are wrong on this one once again.
HASAN: We will have to leave it there. Democratic Congressman Jamaal Bowman of New York — thank you for joining us tonight. Appreciate your bluntness on this particular issue.
Still ahead, as a grand jury in Georgia hears testimony from the election official that got that infamous phone call from Donald Trump, pressuring him to find over 11,000 votes, don`t forget about another infamous figure that was by the president said at the time. Much more on her, and on the official power of election, she still wheels to this day. Up next, you don`t want to miss this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:37:39]
HASAN: She started out as a liberal Democrat. In fact when she was first elected to the Oklahoma House in the 1970s, she was in the progressive wing of the Democratically controlled legislature. She was a major force in getting the Equal Rights Amendment ratified in Oklahoma. She boasted that she authored the bill that made Oklahoma the first state to offer universal preschool. She was the first woman in the country to chair a House Budget and Appropriations Committee.
When she married her second husband in 1984, she agreed to take her husband`s name, but only if he agreed to switch his party registration, and become a Democrat.
Then, she ran for lieutenant governor as a Democrat under her new name Cleta Mitchell. But then, Cleta Mitchell began to change. And people in Oklahoma politics have been puzzling for years over what happened.
Some of her former colleagues think it`s her loss in the Democratic primary, for that lieutenant governor`s race, a loss she blamed on what she thought as ungrateful teachers union. Others thought it was the influence of her second husband, that he had changes his party registration, but not his conservative leanings.
Then there was her husband`s conviction on bank fraud charges, a few years later, which she blamed on overreaching government regulation.
Whatever it was, by the time she got to Washington in the `90s, she has soured on this whole liberal idea of helping the less fortunate. In 1996, she told “The New Yorker” that she used to, quote, sit in the state capital thinking of all the good things I could do with other people`s money. But as “The New Yorkers`” Jane Mayer put it, when she had to earn that money herself, she found she was a bit less generous.
As “The Washington Post” described it, quote, with her background as a Democrat and her newfound fervor as a Republican, she was courted by Washington`s conservative activists, and she became a leading lawyer for GOP candidates and committees, including the National Rifle Association.
She also became a vocal anti-gay crusader. She worked diligently to push gay Republican groups out of the party, saying they promoted the homosexual agenda. In the midst of that, a reporter tried to ask her about her divorce from her first has been a 1982. He later came out as gay, became an AIDS activist, and died of the disease in 1991.
Cleta Mitchell shut down the interview, calling it a hit piece. And for most people will be enough of a political journey for one life type. A liberal Democrat and pioneer of women`s rights, to welfare bashing anti-gay lawyer for the NRA.
[21:40:08]
But Cleta Mitchell wasn`t done. I`m sure you remember Donald Trump`s infamous phone call to Georgia secretary of state, in the weeks after the 2020 election, the one where President Trump, then President Trump berated and threatened Georgia`s top election official, telling him to find nearly 12,000 votes, so that Joe Biden`s win in Georgia could be overturned.
Well, guess who is on that call with Trump, helping him make his case to overturn the election.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, TRUMP CALL TO GA SECRETARY OF STATE, JAN. 2, 2021)
MARK MEADOWS, TRUMP CHIEF OF STAFF: Mr. President, everybody is on the line. This is Mark Meadows, the chief of staff. You also have the attorneys that represent the presidents, Kurt and Alex, and Cleta Mitchell, who is not the attorney of record, but has been involved.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: We have all these different people that voted, but they don`t live in Georgia anymore. What was that number, Cleta? That was pretty good number, too.
CLETA MITCHELL, ATTORNEY: Well, the number we have registered out of state, after they moved from Georgia. And so they had a date when they moved from Georgia, they registered to vote out of state, and then it`s like the 4,500, I don`t have that number right in front of me.
TRUMP: And then they came back in and they voted.
MITCHELL: And voted. Yeah.
TRUMP: All we have to do, is find 11,000 plus votes.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HASAN: That`s all we have to do, Cleta. We just had to find 11,000 votes, and we could overturn this election.
Cleta Mitchell was on that court, because she had been working hard for weeks on crazy schemes to keep Trump in power. A month before the court, she was emailing Trump`s chief of staff, laying out a multi-point plan for Georgia`s Republican legislature to toss out the popular vote and declare Trump the winner. When that didn`t work is time to pressure the secretary of state to do it instead, and when that didn`t work, when Joe Biden took office, despite all her hard work, well, she said to work making sure the next election goes her way.
“The New York Times” reporting this week that Cleta Mitchell is working with the Republican National Committee, and lots of big pocketed right wing groups, to recruit an army of election deniers who had essentially hound elections officials and elections workers across the country. Her training manual advises recruits to be forever present inside elections offices, and to essentially conduct surveillance on elections officials, to determine which ones are enemies.
They`ve already driven at least one county election official out of office. The registrar in Democratic Fairfax County in Virginia, resigned earlier this year after he said Cleta Mitchell`s groups subjected him two months of accusations of fraud.
Unbelievably, even as Cleta Mitchell has been involved in this democracy undermining project, she got herself appointed to a Federal Election Advisory Board last year, I kid you not. Trump appointees held a federal civil rights agency hostage, refusing to let it do its work, unless they got to put one of their allies on the election advisory board.
Now, Cleta Mitchell advises a federal elections agency, on how to administer elections. I`m not making this up. And the moral of the story, especially for Democrats, is that when people aren`t held accountable, they don`t go away. They don`t keep their heads down and move on.
No, they doubled down. They go from trying to overturn the last election, to actively working to undermine the next one.
But, there is still that possibility of some accountability for that Georgia phone call, for that effort by Donald Trump and Cleta Mitchell, and their allies to tampering the election in Florida. A grand jury in Atlanta is investigating that plot and today they heard from their first big witness. That is next. Do not go away.
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[21:48:27]
HASAN: On Sunday night, in the middle of the night, literally 11:30 p.m., former President Donald Trump went to his off brand social media site to post this.
The young ambitious radical left Democrat “prosecutor” from Georgia who is presiding over one of the most crime-ridden and corrupt places in the USA, Fulton County, has put together a grand jury to investigate an absolutely, in all caps, perfect call to the secretary of state.
He continues about how he thinks the election was stolen, and all is normal nonsense, but it`s pretty telling that on a Sunday in the middle the night, that was what was on the former presidents mind. He seems a little bothered.
Well, we learned late last week, that Fulton County, Georgia District Attorney Fani Willis, who is investigating President Trump`s efforts to overturn the 2020 election, in Georgia, we learned that she had begun subpoenaing witnesses to appear before a special grand jury, starting this week.
You likely remember as we mentioned before the break, this whole investigation got started because of President Trump`s now infamous January 2nd, 2021 phone call, where he essentially tried to bully Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, a Republican, into finding him more than 11,000 votes that simply did not exist.
NBC News confirmed that today, Mr. Raffensperger himself testified to the grand jury, in the afternoon. According to Georgia Public Broadcasting, he was there for four, hours much to discuss, I guess.
So, to be clear, that grand jury has the tape of the call, and they have now heard from the primary witness. I for one can see why President Trump, former President Trump, might be a bit nervous.
[21:50:03]
Joining us now is Barbara McQuade, former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, and current professor at the University of Michigan School of Law.
Barb, thanks so much for being with us tonight.
Most major criminal probes that we`ve covered in the past seem to have called on most important witnesses to testify close to last. Why do you think Fani Willis called Raffensperger in the grand jury`s first week?
BARBARA MCQUADE, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Well, although he is an important witness, he`s likely to be a friendly witness. The witnesses that you might tend to wait until the end, are those that might tend to be more hostile, and those where you feel the need to have as much information as possible, to be armed with all the documents, so you can confront them with other things we`ve learned.
For Raffensperger, I think there`s an expectation that he will be a friendly witness, so to speak, his words are on the recording, I think it`s always stood firm in his position. So I think she just wants to probe, not only the call, but all the other conversations that may have occurred before or after that. So, in many ways, it`s kind of important to start with, him just to get educated himself on what happened.
HASAN: The guy`s written entire book about that, experience in the phone call, in which he mentioned sitting in his kitchen, and his wife listening, and his wife also testified today.
Fani Willis office has audio of Trump pressuring Raffensperger. We`ve all heard that audio. We`ve had it for more than a year.
What else does she need? I feel like, Barb, if you are my where the people making that call to Raffensperger, we`d be behind bars by now.
MCQUADE: Well, I think that the main thing that she needs to prove is criminal intent. And I know that we talk about this a lot, but it is an essential element of any kind of fraud claim. So, you know, all crimes have kind of two components, the bad act, and the guilty mind. And so, you know, the bad act here is pretty apparent. He was demanding that Brad Raffensperger find in these 11,000 votes.
But, if he genuinely believed that he won the election, he may argue, I just wanted one I was entitled to. I thought I had lost even more than 11,000 illegitimate votes, I was just asking him to correct this injustice. That`s all I was asking him to do.
So, her task is to find out whether there is a fraudulent intent, then he knew he lost, and he was demanding that Brad Raffensperger cheat to say he won.
HASAN: Donald J. Trump is nothing if not a devoted crusader against and corrector of injustice.
One last quick question, Barb, January 6th — the January 6th Committee just announced a big public hearing. It`s going to be next Thursday, 8:00 p.m., live on this network. The committee has said it will present previously unseen material. How big of an impact do you expect these hearings to have on public sentiment?
MCQUADE: I think they can potentially be very important, I think there are some people like you and me, and maybe many people in the audience here, who pay very wrapped attention to all these details. But there are plenty of other people who pay only passing attention to it.
HASAN: Yes.
MCQUADE: And members of the committee have promised to reveal new information that is not yet been disclosed, things that Congressman Jamie Raskin has said will blow the lid off the Congress. So it sounds like there`s some important things that are to come, I also think it sounds, like from reporting, that they are using video and text message and other kinds of things to present kind of a multimedia presentation, understanding that the public has a short attention span, and only in appetite for small doses, we`ve all been ruined by watching law in order for all these years, that it sounds like they understand that they need to make a compelling presentation.
HASAN: If anyone can match the cast of law and order, it`s Congressman Jamie Raskin. It will be a big night next Thursday.
Barb McQuade, former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, current professor at the University of Michigan School of Law, appreciate your analysis as ever. Thank you.
MCQUADE: Thank you, Mehdi,.
HASAN: Still ahead, one last story to get, to about a much-needed in very positive change of the White House.
Stay with us.
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[21:58:27]
HASAN: Do you remember this photo? Donald Trump with a very white class of White House interns. It`s a photo that went viral especially when it was compared to this photo, of President Obama and his last class of White House interns who appeared to be more representative of the American population, shall we say.
But whether you are an intern in the Obama White House, or the Trump White House, you can only be an intern if you can afford to be an intern. The cost of living in Washington, D.C. is incredibly high. If you don`t have the outside financial resources to work as an unpaid intern, then you are probably not going to work that intern. You`ll probably be able to fill that role even if it`s offered to you.
A group called Pay Our Intern, which led the push from members of Congress to pay their interns, noted in a 2019 report, that quote, a legislative internship create pathways in public service but unpaid internships create barriers to those pathways.
In an effort to topple those barriers, the Biden White House announced today that the White House will for the first, time in recent history, finally, pay its interns. They will be paid $750 a week. However, interns will not have a housing stipend or be allowed to accept third-party funding to supplement their pay.
So, while the White House is still a long way from removing all the barriers that come with unpaid internships in D.C., paying interns $750 a week is a good step in the right direction. And will, we hope, invite more law income students and professionals of all races into their first jobs in government and public service.
That does it for us tonight. We`ll see you again tomorrow.
Now, it`s time for “THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL”.
Good evening, Lawrence.