Updated
Summary
The January 6 Select Committee has formalized a path to share witness transcripts and evidence with the Justice Department. Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Senator Joe Manchin announced an expansive agreement that had eluded them for months addressing health care and climate, raising taxes on high earners and large corporations and reducing federal debt. Congress is sharing January 6 evidence with the Department of Justice. Fox News snubs Donald Trump`s primetime rally and airs Ron DeSantis` interview instead.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Welcome to THE BEAT. I`m Ari Melber. And we are covering a lot tonight, including this breakthrough for the President`s agenda in Washington initiatives that were long left for dead roaring back to life, many eyeing a big win ahead of the midterm Senator Schumer and mansion, who had been holding out or brokering this deal behind closed doors, and we`re going to explain what it means.
So I`m calling it the most ambitious climate action ever undertaken by the United States. That`s how the Times put it. And Medicare would then regulate the price of prescription drugs in order to negotiate, which would actually help a lot of people who need drugs, according to the experts also raise taxes on corporations, as well as some of the very rich high earning individuals who the administration and Manchin apparently agree can afford it.
Now, what happens next? And what does it mean, we go right to the White House itself, White House Communications Director Kate Bedingfield making some time at a very busy moment. Thanks for being here.
KATE BEDINGFIELD, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Of course. Thanks for having me, Ari.
MELBER: Absolutely. Our setup here was quicker than usual, because we`d be quoting the White House, but we have the White House. So bottom line one, what does this all do? And two, the big question, how did this president get this Senator Manchin back on board?
BEDINGFIELD: Well, what does this all do? It does an enormous amount for families all across the country, it tackles the climate crisis in a meaningful and urgent and frankly, historic way, it`s going to lower the cost of prescription drugs, it`s going to lower the cost of health care, and it`s going to rewrite the tax code so that corporations have to pay their fair share, and people making under $400,000 a year are not going to see a tax increase.
So, this is a massive downpayment on a lot of the big things that President Biden campaigned on when he ran for president in 2020. These are big campaign promises. And he`s incredibly gratified by the deal that came together. And he is incredibly grateful you asked, you know, how it came together. He`s incredibly grateful to the work of — for the work of Senator Manchin, Senator Schumer, and people who have been working on this quite literally around the clock for months and months and months. So a lot of work and an enormous, enormous step forward for American families.
MELBER: How did you get Manchin?
BEDINGFIELD: Well, so I`ll let Senator Manchin speak for himself. But you know, he has negotiated in good faith. These conversations have obviously been, as you all know, you`ve been covering it have been ongoing for a long time. And this last round of work with Senator Schumer and others, you know, was incredibly impactful. And again, the President is really grateful and hopeful that Congress is going to move quickly to pass this into law.
MELBER: And you mentioned the action on climate. So for people who are worried about the future of the earth, this planet that we reside, as long as it`s inhabitable, and or these hot summers, what does this do?
BEDINGFIELD: Yes, so this is going to help us meet President Biden`s carbon emission goal by 2030, which is a huge, huge piece of getting the climate crisis under control, bringing down temperatures, as you say, you know, the country is burning, the planet is burning. And these are investments in energy security moving forward, its investments in clean energy projects, it`s going to ensure that we are moving to a clean energy system.
And it`s also in addition to doing all of that, it`s also going to help bring down energy costs for families. Now it includes rebates and money that`s going to help bring down energy costs for family. So it takes enormous, enormous steps to tackle the climate crisis, which as you know, the President has said is an existential one.
MELBER: How does it affect inflation, Senator Manchin, had floated that as one of the reasons he initially didn`t want to go along again, for folks joining us the Biden ministration getting this breakthrough. And we`re talking to you from the White House. But does this do anything about inflation in your view?
BEDINGFIELD: It does, absolutely. The name is aptly named, because it is going to tackle inflation, of course, going to lower the deficit on top of the $1.7 trillion historic lowering of the deficit that we`ve done in the last year that helps bring inflation down. It`s going to lower costs for families, it`s going to lower costs on prescription drugs on healthcare, again, energy prices, so it is going to tackle the things that are that families are paying a lot for, it`s going to bring them down.
Again, I think it really reinforces some of the big promises the president ran on and also underscores how focused he is on the things that are impacting people around their kitchen table.
MELBER: Yes.
BEDINGFIELD: And so it is it is absolutely going to help to bring inflation down.
MELBER: Well, it`s clearly one of the brightest news days and where we`ve seen some of the most excitement out of the Biden White House, which is why we want to hear from you. Before I let you go, I did want to hit on one other piece of potentially bad news you`re well aware of it which is how the economy is doing writ large, obviously you can`t turn that dial automatically but let`s look at the Washington Post headline here.
[18:05:05]
Economy shrinking again in the second quarter, recession fears. The country may be heading into a recession. What else can this administration do? And at what point does it become important to acknowledge how bad this is, even if there`s a technical process for declaring a recession, and not having a government that overly spin something that is, you know, then candidate and now President Biden has said was a problem with the last president?
BEDINGFIELD: Well, look, I mean, I think it`s important to think about what an economy in recession looks like. I mean, you think about what a recession is, that`s, you know, businesses shuttering, that`s people unable to find jobs. That`s not what we`re seeing in this economy. There are incredible indicators of strength. We`re at historic low unemployment, 3.6 unemployment. We`ve created a historic number of jobs.
So you know, there are indicators in the economy that is stronger. Obviously, the GDP number is one indicator. But if you look at, for example, some of the economic forecasters, some of the big financial firms on Wall Street, even Chairman Powell says, This doesn`t look like an economy in recession.
And so what the President is doing is continuing to advance his economic agenda, to create jobs, to put more money in people`s pockets, which, again, the, you know, the huge deal that Senator Manchin and Senator Schumer announced last night is going to help do that. So he`s continuing to move forward to build an economy that`s going to continue to grow.
MELBER: Understood. I know how busy it is at the White House in Washington, Kate. And there`s someone from Brooklyn who always says, You could have been anywhere in the world tonight, but you`re here with us. And we appreciate that. And I want to echo that and say, thanks for joining us from the White House tonight.
BEDINGFIELD: It`s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
MELBER: Thank you. We have now _____ who knows his way around some of those Biden`s staff and that project. He was the veteran of several presidential campaigns, including Barack Obama`s which is relevant. As we look at a deal that has some of the wishlist from the Obama era, I should say, excuse me era. We talked about climate, you`ve got this heatwave that we were just talking to Kate, about 15 million Americans are affected by that temperatures have topped 110 degrees in many places. Yikes.
Well, this package sets aside all of this money for clean energy technologies, wind, solar, tax incentives for people who want more energy efficient homes and cars at a time where some of those cars have proven popular trending even. We`re also told in the reporting from the times that it would instantly reset the role of the U.S. in what is obviously a global effort to save the globe. Here`s the president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: This bill would be the most significant legislation in history to tackle the climate crisis and improve our energy security right away. It`s a big deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: It does more than one thing, which we were just discussing with the White House. You have this issue around actually standing up to the role of capitalism and corporate greed in whether people can get fair access to healthcare and medication, right. So pharmaceutical companies have fought this, but now you have the government getting more negotiating power on this.
This is actually why I mentioned this before we bring in Chai Komanduri, something that then President Obama has called for, and something he fought for as a candidate. Here he was in the 2008 primary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We are not going to make some of these changes, unless we change how business is done in Washington. The reason that we can`t negotiate for prescription drugs under the Medicare prescription drug plan is because the drug companies specifically sought and obtained a provision in that bill that prevented us from doing it. And unless we change that politics, we`re going to continue to see the waste that we`re seeing in the entitlement programs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He said what he said and he meant it and those politics continued to bedeviled Democrats because to get the breakthrough in health care that was so vital. They did compromise, leaving out government negotiations on drug prices with Obamacare. That changes now Medicare can negotiate.
The package also raises taxes, as mentioned on corporations on certain private equity firms. And these high earners who seem to spend more money dodging taxes than they could just pay up for the taxes. Democrats say this will do a lot.
And bill does need all 50 Senate Democrats, they got Manchin, now Senator Sinema has not exactly announced where she stands and we bring in that Obama veteran Chai Komanduri. Welcome back, sir.
CHAI KOMANDURI, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: Good to be back, Ari.
MELBER: I just went through a lot of policy and a little bit of politics. I think the Obama eye to the world would say gosh, that took a long time. And yet it is happening on the drug front. Give us your reaction writ large, including anything you heard from the White House there?
KOMANDURI: Well, I think that this deal is a testament to how much of the political climate and political ground in America has shifted this summer. And I think the direct reason for that is the January 6 hearings. I think the January 6 hearings have highlighted that Democrats don`t just face a Republican opposition, democracy faces a Trumpist authoritarian opposition.
[18:10:07]
So I think that that has made everybody a lot more serious, including Senator Manchin about coming to some kind of deal and having something that they can deliver to voters to show that Joe Biden and Democrats are affected —
MELBER: Let me tell you — let me slow you down, because I gave the White House in fairness, ample opportunity to explain Manchin`s move.
KOMANDURI: Right.
MELBER: It didn`t, you know, that didn`t do that. And, you know, I can only ask questions, I can also answer them. You`re suggesting that it`s not necessarily so much that he was moved by external forces, but that going towards these midterms with these numbers, doing something domestically rather than being fairly or not perceived as doing very little made more sense to him?
KOMANDURI: Right. Exactly. I mean, Democrats have to be seen as effective. The problem that has been weighing down Democrats is that Joe Biden and Democrats look ineffective. Part of that has been Joe Manchin is recalcitrance to sign on to any deal with the White House.
So I think that has been a big part of his calculation. And I think it`s also part of the understanding of a lot of Democrats that we have to have some kind of deal, something to run on, something to present voters on these key issues of concern for them, including climate, drug prices, and inflation.
MELBER: Yes. And so we were reporting this out, we mentioned on last night`s broadcast. Now, there`s a lot more details coming out about it. And then you have Manchin, who`s usually the thorn in the Biden administration side.
I did mention I want to show Sinema. I mean, it`s almost like some, you know, some West Wing episode that was cut because it was too repetitive. There`s always one or two of them. Take a listen to Senator Sinema.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you leaning one way or the other? Possibly thinking about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator, are you not going to stay where you are until after the parliamentarian (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like we said, she doesn`t have comments. She`s going to be reviewing the text, and she`ll have to see what the parliamentary process produces.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s her spokeswoman basically saying we don`t have the answer yet. And there`s two ways to view this. I`ll let you respond, Chai. One is none other than Justice Scalia, who said you have to be careful — very careful when interpreting silence. That`s true in law and life.
On the other hand, this is something that most mainstream Democrats have been advocating for a long time we showed the Obama template, it is by its very nature with Manchin on it. Not radical San Francisco left. I mean, he`s in a tougher state than she is.
So I don`t want to over interpret the sounds. I want to be responsible with the viewers about what we know and don`t know here in the journalism. On the flip side, you`re a democratic political expert. Is it a little odd when 40 some are for the cheese mum?
KOMANDURI: It is almost inexplicable, especially when you think about the fact that Joe Manchin is in a state that Trump won by 70 percent. It is a state that is a coal state, you know, and he`s now giving a vote to the most ambitious climate package in American history, probably, at least in Nixon probably. We haven`t seen that —
MELBER: Yes, since Nixon EPA type.
KOMANDURI: Yes, when you think about Nixon with EPA and the Clean Air Act. I mean, you`d have to go back that far to find a climate package and a set of proposals that are as ambitious as the ones that Joe Manchin assigned onto.
So Kyrsten Sinema does seem almost inexplicable. It`s a purple state. It`s not a red state. Why is she so recalcitrant? Now, I think there`s still some hope to be had here. I mean, she hasn`t said no. And we have to remember that Joe Manchin seemed very difficult for a long time.
MELBER: Right.
KOMANDURI: You know, there was — there`s a great scene in the movie Terms of Endearment where Jack Nicholson plays this rascally character, but then in the end, he does the right thing. He comes back to Shirley MacLaine, and helps console her after the tragedy of her daughter`s death. And Shirley MacLaine says, Who would have guessed after all this time, that you would have turned out to be a nice guy? Well, I think that — that turned out to be true for Joe Manchin. I hope it`s true for Senator Sinema.
MELBER: Love that. And we`re going to do movie trivia. Do you know how Jack Nicholson orders toasts when they don`t take any substitutions.
KOMANDURI: You know, I wish I had that whole speech of memorized from Five Easy Pieces.
MELBER: Look at that, Five Easy Pieces. I don`t talk about my family that much. But my dad always loved — he loves that scene where, you know, your daughter toast so hold this, hold that until you get just the toasted bread?
KOMANDURI: Yes, Five Easy Pieces directed by Bob Dreyfus and I believe from 1970, one of the great movies of the early 70s.
MELBER: So if people wondered I`m not trying to do with Chai Komanduri advertisement but people wonder Oh, you know, he brings up his own references he must pre-research them, which you could I don`t know. This Five Easy Pieces you didn`t know I was going to bring it up. And yet here we are Five Easy Pieces in this case a toast. Chai Komanduri, good to see you.
KOMANDURI: Good to see you.
MELBER: Absolutely. We have our shortest break right now. One minute when we come back. I got Maya Wiley and January 6 and this development, new testimony. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:16:08]
MELBER: The Justice Department now is getting new evidence in this criminal election probe and it is something that has been a while in the making. We even discussed a times when it seemed odd that the January 6 committee had this standoff but they are formally sharing their investigative material POLITCO reporting, there appears to be greater urgency as prosecutors obtain this evidence and look at Trump`s inner circle.
We know that the committee has been unusually effective over 1,000 people interviewed, over 150,000 documents obtained and they`re getting more. Trump`s former number one Chief of Staff Mulvaney testifying today. We saw him arrive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you plan to tell the committee today?
MICK MULVANEY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ACTING CHIEF OF STAFF: The truth. how about that for a start.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And were you asked to come in pr do you volunteer to come in?
MULVANEY, I was asked to come in:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You asked to come in. Subpoena or no?
MULVANEY: I was honestly just asked to come in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Mick Mulvaney doing his riff on a Beanie Sigel the truth. Every time I come in the booth, the truth, others can judge whether that is true. But he is casting himself as someone who by implication, he`s suggesting he wasn`t forced in and he`s going to tell the truth, which again is interesting, because whatever you think of him, he clearly is acting like this as a legitimate committee that he wants to cooperate with, not some quote show TRA (ph).
We also have learned that the former Treasury Secretary Mnuchin has sat for a type of interview transcribed. The committee is also talking to Pompeo, the former chief diplomat and the former head of DNI, John Radcliffe. Those are officials who may know a lot of things including the attempt to abuse national security power is something that committee has explored as well as the question of whether they got close to trying to actually use the 25th amendment to remove Donald Trump, not because he was incapacitated, but because they viewed him potentially as a criminal President. Pompeo name checked on that very issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Hutchinson, you told us that you were hearing about discussions related to the 25th amendment. Here`s part of what you said.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: Mr. Pompeo have the conversation with Mr. Meadows in case you hadn`t heard, discussions amongst cabinet secretaries. And when I understand it was more of a — this is what I`m hearing. I want you to be aware of it. But I also think it`s worth putting on your radar because you`re the chief of staff, you`re technically the boss of all the Cabinet secretaries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And it`s not just the 25th amendment. There`s also questions about all of the interactions in the global stage. We`re going to get into it with two people who also represent truth, Maya Wiley and Elie Mystal when we`re back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:23:25]
MELBER: We are back with two excellent guests as we track this January 6, committee progress and a whole lot more. My Wiley is President CEO of the Leadership Conference in Human Rights and a valued counselor and Elie Mystal, Justice Correspondent with The Nation always highly caffeinated.
ELIE MYSTAL, THE NATION JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Indeed.
MELBER: Facts?
MYSTAL: Facts.
MELBER: I just walked through some of what`s happening. So I`m just curious big picture, your response, Maya?
MAYA WILEY, THE LEADERSHIP CONFERENCE PRESIDENT AND CEO: Noose tightening. That`s my response. And you know, look, what`s interesting about this, and Elie, and I was just talking about this. All these people who had nothing to say when Donald Trump was being impeached for these very same things, people who kept their mouth shut, despite what we know, they knew now and just how explosive, dangerous, outrageous and even criminal it. Now coming forward to the committee and making we don`t know what exactly they`ll say. But given what we`ve heard already, we`ve already heard facts that are going to be evidence that put Donald Trump right in the center of a conspiracy.
MELBER: Yes. And something that I think people have learned through these processes is something that lawyers fixate on, right, sometimes too much, which is process. But when you control process and rules, you have a lot more control over outcome.
And so, you know, is there an instant replay or not? You make that question that`s going to depend on then what you think you`re going to benefit from and that`s why lawyers obsess over rules. So, when you look at this process, and we showed Mick Mulvaney, loyal Trump aide, as you said, people could get into all the problems with him.
What does it tell you that earlier in the process, he wasn`t around out.
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And now the committee has spoken to the public, the process is playing out. He doesn`t want out. He apparently wants in.
WILEY: Well, maybe even more to the point Cassidy Hutchinson has spoken to the American people in the committee. And you know, it makes it a lot harder when you have someone who has come forward and named you as someone with direct information, who was in the room in discussions that go directly to what the President said did or thought.
And so, you know, what it really suggests is the committee has done an excellent job using the platform they have and the way in which they`ve been pulling out their witnesses, so that they get witnesses that now are kind of backed into a corner because they already have someone who`s put them in the room, said this is a person with knowledge —
MELBER: Exactly.
WILEY: — and then can now call the people and say, Is she telling the truth or not?
MELBER: Well, as is so often the case, you`ve given us a great framework to work with. Now I`m going to go over to my coffee klatch? Are you ready?
MYSTAL: I`m totally ready.
MELBER: I think my as point speaks to something that you do, which is the intersection of law and journalism. The first witness and the first call is often the hardest. But if you`re at the end of your story, and you already got a bunch of stuff that the other people know is either true, half true or Gosh, you must have talked to somebody doesn`t that sweeten the pot sometimes not for patriotism. I`m not talking about that. For self-interest to go well, valleys got half the story. I better get my point it.
MYSTAL: It loosens lips, right. And we I think we saw that, especially with Pat Cipollone, right, who was constantly throughout these hearings. Pat knows this, Pat knows this, Pat knows this. Finally, Pat goes in and tells what he knows.
But you also see the point of a subpoena. Y`all see the point of having people testify under oath, because you know what we haven`t seen it. Remember how when Cassidy Hutchinson came out and they were all just like, oh, Secret Service people are going to testify under oath that she was — no they didn`t. Tony Ornato, where is he? Show up, Tony? Because he doesn`t want to testify under oath, either. Right?
So, I think the dairyman — I think the (INAUDIBLE) committee deserves a round of applause they have done a great job. But you know, who wants to chose a random pause me? I`m going to take a victory lap that?
MELBER: Do it.
MYSTAL: Metaphorically I don`t like running.
MELBER: I`m going to lay it out. It`s just fact checking. You do it, but then Maya will judge/
MYSTAL: OK, by all means.
MELBER: OK.
WILEY: I`m here for that.
MYSTAL: Day before the hearing starts, I come on your show. I`m sitting in that seat. And I say the January 6 committee has an audience of one. And that one is Merrick Garland. And well, you should judge the committee by whether or not this committee lights a fire under the DOJ. And I think, as we sit here now, eight hearings later, we have seen that fire lit. We have seen the DOJ now really want to get at some of those transcripts that January 6 committee already has. We have seen the jolts according to some reports that they got from Cassidy Hutchinson. We have seen the DOJ now subpoena Mike Pence`s top aides to try to come in and talk to that right. We have seen the DOJ go forward. And I think a lot of that some of this was happening before the hearing started in fairness.
But I think a lot of the public pressure on the DOJ now has been is because the January 6 committee has done an excellent job. So hats off to Bennie Thompson, Adam Schiff, that lady from Wyoming who exists.
MELBER: Are you doing shoutouts?
MYSTAL: I just think they`ve done a great job and they deserve some credit for this because a lot of times we do the Democrats in disarray story. The Democrats and the Wyoming lady, they have done a great job.
WILEY: Say her name. Say her name, Elie. Say here name. Say it.
MYSTAL: Ms. Cheney.
WILEY: Thank you.
MYSTAL: And Mr. Kinzinger.
MELBER: As promised. As promised.
MYSTAL: Great job.
MELBER: Judge Wiley.
WILEY: Mr. Mystal is quite accurate that the Department of Justice including the Attorney General was a very critical audience for this hearing. I would say what is particularly pivotal was Cassidy Hutchinson, because she brought evidence that for from at least from public reporting, we know they did not have because that is not the way they were investigating this case, right? They were leaving —
MELBER: And willing (INAUDIBLE) to catch up.
WILEY: And we didn`t. So they — that actually put it quite squarely —
MELBER: Yes.
WILEY: — in the court of investigating Trump directly. But can I just say one thing?
MELBER: Well, I just want to —
WILEY: One thing —
MELBER: I`m going to give it back to you.
WILEY: OK.
MELBER: But it was also Cassidy Hutchinson that we learned that it seemed like some people at DOJ had to play catch up with the committee.
WILEY: Well, I think the simple question is, the question is, I want to give some credit to Department of Justice here because I`m not quite, quite as negative as is my friend is that the fake elector in — the Department of Justice was investigating fake electors, and that was going to take them to Trump.
[18:30:00]
I do think Cassidy Hutchinson sped this up dramatically with her testimony, the fact that we have the investigation in Georgia, which, you know, again, you know, that grand jury was not public could not have the same public impact unless there`s an actual indictment that Cassidy Hutchinson was an incredibly important witness.
MELBER: Well, this picks up on something that we`ve covered and others have covered with Andrew Weissmann and other DOJ veteran saying they should go farther. DOJ has in its own way tried to both say, we`re not talking about this, but also you get the impression they`re trying to put out what they`ve been on.
You sound on the evidence more sympathetic to the idea that they were working on it. I think the rebuttal though, and we can discuss is they`ve been doing this all piecemeal, they`ve been doing it itemized. And if that`s your theory, and you do it really itemized — and I will say we`re going to talk about this later in the program. We have a special on this tomorrow, actually. But if you do it too itemized, you might miss the coup forest from the storming the Capitol trees.
MYSTAL: Yes, look —
WILEY: I think that —
MELBER: Well, I`ll go Maya and then you since it`s a rebuttal.
WILEY: No, I think that`s true. Well, because I don`t hear that as a rebuttal.
MELBER: OK.
WILEY: My point was not to say that the Department of Justice was investigating in a way that was going to aggressively get them there. It`s that the fake elector investigation that sounded like they had started was eventually going to get them more close, and particularly if they got someone like a Cassidy Hutchinson speaking to the FBI, might have gotten there.
I think the question is, how fast how long, and how aggressively would they pursue it? So, I agree with you on that point.
MYSTAL: Look, reading Merrick Garland is a bit like reading a horoscope, right? We`re kind of at the point where it`s a criminal close to you shall be held accountable in your future, right? And that could be anybody. It could be Meadows, that could be — who knows what`s going to happen, right? So — but he`s giving you enough to believe what you want to believe.
If you want to believe that Merrick Garland has been working doggedly with a secret plan for 18 months and this is now — you can believe that. If you want to believe that Merrick Garland need a little push or shove from the January 6 Committee to get to where — you can believe — you can believe what you want.
At the end of the day, there`s going to be one question, is the former President of the United States indicted for his role in trying to overthrow the government?
MELBER: Well, two —
MYSTAL: That`s going to be the question.
Melber: I`ll give you two follow-ups. One, do you think that Garland is more likely to indict if Mercury`s in retrograde? And two — that`s horoscope humor, some of the worst type of jokes I do? I rarely do horoscope humor. But two, you just boiled it down to a binary, do you indict Trump or not?
There is of course a different view which is that OK, if you indict the former president, it`s a big deal. If you do nothing, well, history will judge. There is a middle, is there not, to Elie and Maya before I lose you, will you do indict the coup conspiracy? If you indicted several people who served in the White House or people who are in the government level of abusing power, based on the evidence, that does certainly chill the next round because people are watching other people incarcerated. And whether or not the former president is a beneficiary or an indicted coconspirator or other things, is that not a middle ground? Both of you final thoughts.
MYSTAL: I like the idea of Mark Meadows going to jail for the rest of his life. But I still think that the committee has laid out that the person on top of all of this, in charge of all of this, doing all of this was Donald Trump. And so, I do think that indictments need to land at his doorstep for there to be a sense of justice.
However, if we at least get to Meadows, I won`t — getting to Meadows, I won`t call that nothing. That will be something.
WILEY: Every single indictment counts, every single one. And every single indictment gets you closer to more indictments, quite frankly, and we know that, including flipping witnesses. I do agree with Elie. I don`t see a situation or scenario where if you`re following the evidence, you don`t land at a very serious investigation of Donald Trump. And the Department of Justice should do what it should do, which is investigate rigorously, follow the evidence, and bring all the charges that can based on that evidence.
MELBER: I think you both make great points. I will add, whether you like it or not, in fairness to Mr. Meadows, we don`t have public evidence that he`s closer to indictment, the DOJ actually formally publicized that they declined to indict him on the privilege battle, partly because they thought he had a defense. It doesn`t mean he was right. It just means they didn`t think it hit that criminal bar. I just want to add that. We will of course, follow up with you later to find out where you`re getting your brewed decaf.
MYSTAL: Well, it`s the summer, so it`s cold brew now.
MELBER: Cold brew. Shout out to cold brew. Elie Mystal, Maya Wiley, thank you both.
Coming up later, we turn to another huge and important story, this fight over women`s rights. How it`s affecting the Midterms and a special guest on that.
Also, right-wing media attacks on Trump. You don`t hear that every day. And some awkward moments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE DOOCY, HOST, FOX NEWS: In the same poll, 55 percent —
BRIAN KILMEADE, HOST, FOX NEWS: There`s that cold shot again.
DOOCY: 55 percent of Republicans or people leaning Republican want somebody other than Donald Trump to run. That`s up six percent from their earlier poll.
KILMEADE: And if the former president is watching, you should know those are the just the numbers you`re relaying, you didn`t come up with those numbers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:00]
MELBER: Turning to this story that shows absolutely awkward tension within Fox News and the Republican Party but that`s not why we`re covering it. We`re covering it because it actually can matter. We`ve mentioned this before. Rupert Murdoch remains a very powerful owner of the largest mainstream conservative media empire.
And we`ve seen Fox News has now started just ignoring entire Trump`s speeches. Murdoch outlets say he`s unworthy to be president again. And then you have someone who used to be the kind of center right leader of the Republican Bush party, Karl Rove. He`s writing in, of all places, Rupert Murdoch`s Wall Street Journal, that Trump is hoarding millions of dollars from Republican donors. He`s not helping other Republicans.
[18:40:03]
And then you have it. “Donors might not keep giving. Candidates might start to wonder how strong an ally Trump really is.” And then there`s a shot at the discredited claims about the 2020 election. And they all sound standard and like a low bar, but you don`t usually hear that from conservative Republicans in a conservative political outlet like the editorial side of the journal.
Now, Trump was giving that primetime rally in Arizona on Friday. The Fox News evening lineup did not take it live. Here`s what they did.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA INGRAHAM, HOST, FOX NEWS: Joining us now, and I`m delighted he`s with us, Governor Ron DeSantis from the great state of Florida. I mean, you`re just the guy. You`re the man of the moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: A man of the moment while the former president and self-proclaimed head of the party is talking. You don`t see that every day. And everyone — let me tell you, everyone in politics knows what`s going on here. They ignore the rally. They gave 13 minutes to DeSantis. Some people saying that`s just cold, man. Now, some at Fox are also worried about what Trump will do and no one is writing any — anything right now about who`s coming and going. We`re just caught following the split.
Trump went after the Fox and Friends hosts of going to the “dark side” after they`ve mentioned the factual matter that he is sagging in some Republican primary polls. And then you get it`s uncomfortable moment where one host mentioned the polling again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOOCY: 75 percent of Democrats want somebody else. In the same poll, 55 percent —
KILMEADE: There`s that cold shot again.
DOOCY: 55 percent of Republicans or people leaning Republican want somebody other than Donald Trump to run. That`s up six percent from their earlier poll.
KILMEADE: And if the former president is watching, you should know those are just the numbers you`re relaying, you didn`t come up with those numbers, right?
DOOCY: CNN came up with that.
KILMEADE: Right.
DOOCY: Ainsley said this was a fascinating poll. It is. That`s why we just talked about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Yes, but live TV can be well revealing. Let`s look as that smile begins to fade from Mr. Kilmeade`s face when he realizes he is caught live on camera with a co-host talking again about these Republicans who, let`s keep it going, just don`t like Trump as much as they used to. He almost looks like he`s concerned someone might catch him not saying this but just being near it.
The laughter you hear is from Lincoln Project co-founder Rick Wilson. You`re not a big lefty?
RICK WILSON, CO-FOUNDER, LINCOLN PROJECT: No, no.
MELBER: That`s not how you spent your life.
WILSON: No, no. Not high roll.
MELBER: You know this world.
WILSON: I do.
MELBER: I wanted to get your view on what`s going on. And particularly as I mentioned, however it plays out, you don`t have that DeSantis programming by accident do you?
WILSON: Look, this is a very considered decision on Murdoch`s part. They have decided Ron DeSantis is the new boy wonder. They`re — as long as Donald Trump keeps bleeding out, they`re going to keep pressing button. Ron DeSantis has got hot and cold running Republican elites and consultants flying down to Tallahassee to kiss the ring and other parts. He is the — he is the man of the moment with the billionaire class in the Republican Party. And it`s driving Donald Trump out of his damn mind.
He sits in the — in the bridal suite at Mar-a-Lago or at the — or at his room at Bedminster and throws things at the walls every time he sees Ron DeSantis on Fox, which is about every 35 seconds now. I mean, that one 13- minute clip is just one of the probably half a dozen hits he`s done on the show — on the channel in that week. He is the guy Rupert has picked. And Rupert owns the most powerful normative force in Republican politics outside of Trump.
I do have a theory though, Ari, that eventually, Rupert`s instinct to watch a car crash, to watch a fight, he`ll elevate Trump again because Trump will get back out there in the fight. And look, the reality is Donald Trump still controls about 30 percent of Republican base.
MELBER: Sure.
WILSON: The Trump hotties, they will never break. And that`s enough to win primaries.
MELBER: But there`s been many, many strategists like yourself, campaign veterans, as well as political scientists who point out that what we call campaigning, much of it is designed for public and media consumption.
WILSON: Sure.
MELBER: There`s the private parts. You got to raise the money. You do this and that. But the public parts people hold rallies to get them first on TV, definitely on TV where they think their voters are watching. If Ron DeSantis doesn`t even have to hold rallies because his sit-down interview beats an entire Trump rally on Fox, what does that do to the Trump apparatus in this potential pre-campaign period?
WILSON: There were two giant driving factors in 2016, Jeff Zucker and Rupert Murdoch, who flooded Trump with earned media. He was on every single day. Trump could go to the opening of a — of a phone booth and they would have covered it with an hour before, an hour of analysis after, and whatever, you know, long discursive rambling Trump had.
There — if they took him out on the earn media side, it makes it harder and harder because he doesn`t have Twitter anymore. He has a — he has a much more difficult time doing this. But that — we shouldn`t underestimate the fact that Trump is — got 100 percent name I.D. in the Republican Party. All his craziness and errors and flaws are baked in the cake with those voters. They like a lot of that.
And Ron DeSantis is basically diet Trump right now. And he`s like oh, I can do this without all of the, you know, pussy grabbing and every other damn thing that was — that was a deficit back in the past or without having to overthrow the government.
[18:45:07]
MELBER: Yes, the terrible misogyny that was supposed to take Trump out.
WILSON: Right. All the grotesque errors of Trump. Those were already baked in the cake for most voters. With DeSantis though, when he makes mistakes, they`re going to be new mistakes. And the fact of the matter is he`s very popular with the Fox set, the very online Republican set. Most Americans don`t know who he is yet. He is on the untested corner.
HAYES: Right. You`re making a very important point, especially for people who are really close to it. I got 40 seconds left. Last question is, why does Brian Kilmeade look so sad there?
WILSON: You know, Brian Kilmeade is thinking to himself, I`m going to go back into my — into my studio and I`m going to find my phone and it`s going to have 100 angry texts from Donald Trump and it`s going to make me very sad. Because Trump is very intimate with these people. He grew to believe that they were an adjunct of his White House and of his power. And now they`re betraying him one day at a time. It really stinks.
And the fact is, they know Ron DeSantis is younger and thinner and more attractive, and he hates every bit of that.
MELBER: Well, you`ve shined a light on more than one important facet, including the fact that there is a political emotional aspect to this.
WILSON: No question.
MELBER: And there are people who do that, people who manipulate that, but as you say, that`s part of it. Rick Wilson, thank you and good to see you in person, sir.
WILSON: Thank you. Good to see you.
MELBER: I want to tell everyone something I mentioned earlier that we are really excited about. Tomorrow, right here at this hour, we have a new original special, Inside Trump`s Election Plot. It`s a BEAT special report. It will air here at 6:00 p.m. and again at 9:00 p.m. Eastern. And I`m going to go through our new reporting about why this was more than a riot that got out of control, why it was a coup conspiracy. I hope you`ll consider joining me tomorrow at 6:00.
If you`re busy, which is cool, it is the summer, consider DVR-ing it. I`m going to put in a little break here, but when we come back, we turn to a story that matters. The fight over women`s rights, how it`s playing in the midterms. Stay with us.
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[18:50:00]
MELBER: America`s clash over women`s rights is a flashpoint in these Midterms. Democrats increasingly highlighting Republicans who are using that new Supreme Court ruling to crack down on women`s rights, on abortion, on even things that protect people`s health, their life, affecting children. All of this after, of course, the Supreme Court did what so many appointees had claimed they wouldn`t which was completely overturn Roe. Democrats nationwide now trying to take up the issue at least in the campaigns with ads like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is Doug Mastriano and does he speak for you? He wants to outlaw and criminalize all abortions.
DOUG MASTRIANO (R-PA), GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: My body my choice is ridiculous nonsense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tyler Kistner says he`s 100 percent pro-life and supports allowing the government to criminalize abortion, no exception.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Supreme Court`s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade is the result of a coordinated Republican attack on abortion. Your rights are on the ballot in November. Make your voice heard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Make your voice heard. That`s a political claim there. And of course, this is a political process about who controls the government. But of course, that is just one layer. This is also human beings, our wider culture, how we understand this stuff, and who we listen to.
And as you may know, if you fall to be closely, we recently sat down with the Emmy-winning political comedian Samantha Bee who has advocated and satirize on these issues for a long time. People know where she`s coming from, but she also pushes people to think. And we talked about her reaction to conservative Supreme Court justices pushing to overturn Roe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA BEE, COMEDIAN: I`m shocked but not surprised. Shocked but not surprised. That`s all I can really say. It`s devastating. I mean, it`s devastating. It`s devastating. Everyone around me is — you know, people are texting me. They`re like, what are we going to do? And like, I actually don`t know. I`m so sorry. I actually don`t — I really don`t know. I really don`t know.
You just can`t imagine this kind of like minority rule where the vast majority of the country wants something and is very comfortable with something and they`re still living with this president — precedent for 50 odd years. To take it away is such a disgrace and an injustice.
You know, we`ve been talking about Roe v. Wade falling since the beginning of the show. You know, for seven years, we`re in season seven now and look where we are now. So, I hate to say that you — that I wasn`t wrong about that. But I wasn`t and here we are and it`s very, very dire.
We need to feel better about the world we live in or at least we need to like, express it if we`re not going to feel better about it. You know, I somebody — I often interview people. I often interview people with you know, just like the bleakest possible point of view and I feel better at the end of it because I`m like, well, thank you for going there with me, OK. Like, we went there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: We went there in more depth. This is a new interview. We just dropped it this week as part of our Mavericks series. This was taped right before we got the final ruling, but after the draft ruling, so that`s the context for her remarks and I want to share. You can see the whole thing at msnbc.com/mavericks or scan the code on your screen.
And when we come back, I`m going to tell you why it`s a coup conspiracy and what comes next right after this.
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[18:55:00]
MELBER: It`s hard to believe we are just about a week out from that final and climactic January 6 Committee hearing. Well, the work continues today. We`ve been reporting new witnesses heading in including people who have been sought after for many, many reasons, including the former number one Trump aides, Chief of Staff Mulvaney, who said today he`s telling the truth.
And as we mentioned, that would be a sign that this is, in his view, a legitimate thing he wants to be a part of and be seen cooperating with, not some show trial. A lot has changed over the course of these hearings. And that brings us to something special that I want to make sure you consider joining us for tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. Eastern. We have been writing and preparing our whole BEAT team here this special, Inside Trump`s Election Plot.
It is a special report and it will debut original real reporting on why these are coup conspiracies tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. Eastern as you see on the screen. It will also air, MSNBC has decided, in the 9:00 p.m. our Friday night. I encourage you to try to join me on either timeslot or DVR if you`re busy on a Friday night, which I get, because I`m going to share with you why the DOJ started narrowly and why the new evidence shows you have to look much broader. You have to look at this as a multifaceted coup conspiracy if you want to address and prevent the next one.
I`ll explain more tomorrow. That does it for us tonight. The “REIDOUT WITH JOY REID” is up next.