Updated
Summary
After defying a congressional subpoena, Steve Bannon now trying to cut a deal to avoid criminal trial of contempt. Bannon is being linked to the most incriminating January 6th events like Trump`s call on insurrection eve. Talking Points Memo founder Josh Marshall and NYU Law Professor Melissa Murray joins Ari Melber to talk about Steve Bannon linked to the most incriminating January 6 events and Bannon`s testimony which may reveal Donald Trump`s call on insurrection eve. Dustin Stockton, one of the actual organizers of the January 6 rally that preceded the attack on the Capitol, joins Ari Melber to talk about the January 6 Committee investigating the coordination between rally organizer and Donald Trump`s White House GOP lawmakers.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. We are grateful. THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you so much. Welcome to THE BEAT. I am Ari Melber, and we begin tonight with a breakthrough in the January 6th probe from the very top.
This is building an on a story that we first brought you on Friday night. It is the rush towards an attempted legal surrender by a top Trump aide with the written cooperation of Donald Trump himself. And if that sounds unusual, that`s because this is the first time anyone has reported a story like this before because you never have Trump involved.
Indeed while other Trump aides have testified about January 6th, even Trump`s own family, none have ever done so with Donald Trump himself weighing in in writing in what could be called a semi-cooperative or arguably cooperative fashion. I`ll explain all that and where there is room for skepticism.
But all of this a type of breakthrough that speaks to the stakes here, and what is shaping up as one of the House committee`s most aggressive and decisive legal victories as White House veteran and 2016 campaign chair Steve Bannon makes this move at an attempted partial legal surrender. He is offering a type of last-minute bid to try to cut a deal and cooperate with the January 6th Committee.
He is saying he wants to testify before this committee. He`s saying that now he will deal with them. He will talk, and if he did so under oath that`s a new legal obligation, and he`ll do so despite the many months of defiance that we`ve all experienced if you follow the news. Bannon even arranging a letter from Trump himself which aims to explain this huge reversal. Now the bottom line here is if nothing else, the pressure got to Bannon.
Remember Congress did not negotiate or wait on Bannon. The committee made an assertive and hardball decision, kind of unusual for many Democratic-run probes, to immediately hold Bannon in contempt when he defied, to immediately push for the DOJ to indict him, which it did. There were some at the time who said, gosh, this sets it off on aggressive footing or will it do what DOJ and Garland want to do? Or will it look, quote-unquote, “political”?
Well, Congress, led by this select committee and its chairs, who we`ve all been covering, they said, no, we`re going forward. That`s why Bannon now is facing up to two years in prison, and that is why apparently his tough talk has begun melting with this effort to cut some kind of deal, news that broke just this weekend.
Here is how we got here. Here is how Bannon`s talk has gone from a type of theatrical MAGA pack of lies and defiance to now pleading for a deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: This is the complete charade that the January 6th Committee —
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST, DEADLINE: The House is voting right now to find Trump ally Steve Bannon in contempt of Congress for brazenly defying a subpoena from the January 6th Select Committee.
BANNON: This is going to be the misdemeanor from hell for Merrick Garland, Nancy Pelosi, and Joe Biden. We`re going to go on the offense. We`re tired of playing defense. We`re going to go on the offense on this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Steve Bannon, a former trusted adviser to Donald Trump, now says he will testify and he wants to do so publicly.
BANNON: I want you guys to stay focused, stay on message. Remember, signal, not noise. This is all noise, that`s signal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump now says he will waive that claim of executive privilege if Bannon reaches an agreement to speak with the committee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: How about that? Signal and noise. The projection on display there is absolutely wild and very obvious. Tonight`s news shows no speeches on the courthouse steps were the noise, produced for mostly the MAGA crowd that may naively still believe all that, just like those live stream videos and the podcast bravado which is Mr. Bannon`s specialty. That the noise.
The signal is this actual shift from defiance to asking the committee to help him cut a deal so he might avoid the risk of going to prison, to, quote, “testify,” as Bannon`s lawyer puts it in writing, adding a preference for doing so at your public hearing.
Now sometimes I have to state the obvious around here, so let me state it. Mr. Bannon, a defendant awaiting trial, is not in much of a position to negotiate about venue or forum of said testimony, considering he is currently facing what will be a mandated public trial and then a very private and constricting prison cell if convicted. He is, I take pains to note, legally presumed innocent until this trial and its resolution.
A larger point, though, is this attempt to cooperate at all, and why now? The door is closing quite clearly for Mr. Bannon to claim any cooperation because, one, the committee is down to its last hearings, and two, Bannon`s criminal trial begins next week, literally.
[18:05:09]
Now, if this were a tactic to simply delay next week`s trial, which many skeptics who are familiar with Bannon`s operations would reasonably see that as a possibility, well, any delay tactic has just failed and fallen flat on its face. We can report for you as well, because a lot has been happening in this story tonight, well, late today a judge ruling this trial will continue as scheduled and rejecting other Bannon long shots like his request to subpoena Pelosi or January 6th investigators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN, MSNBC HOST, YASMIN VOSSOUGHIAN REPORTS: It`s too little too late for Steve Bannon. A judge just ruling in the last hour or so that his new willingness to testify before the select committee won`t play any role.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Won`t play any role. Likewise, committee leaders say they will not be giving Bannon any special public hearing as requested in that letter, but they are open to having him come and talk. That is why they held him in contempt in the first place. This was not supposed to be randomly punitive or settling a score. It was the punishment for him not doing what so many others have done, which is comply with lawful requests to tell the truth about what happened with that horrific insurrection.
Now, there is a lot here. Now later tonight we`ll actually break down some of the legalese around that privilege which Bannon does not have and the future of his trial. But, if you pull back from the noise, to use the word of the day, and pull back from the intricacies, here`s what`s basically happening. The most defiant Trump aide involved in this probe is folding and trying to cut a deal, and doing so with Donald Trump`s written cooperation, or at least the PR optics version of asserting that.
And again, we can bring skepticism to aspects of this, but big picture, why is this happening? Because pressure works. Pressure from this committee, which as mentioned has done things a little differently, pressure from the DOJ when it decides to prosecute insurrection and obstruction cases seriously and contempt cases with vigor, it appears that pressure works even on some of the people whose entire life and brand is around claiming that they are imperious and impervious to this and they will not be affected and they do whatever.
A lot of this comes down to fear. On that day, January 6th, it was so many brave public servants, police officers and members of Congress, Vice President Pence, who were subjected to the fear of a criminal mob summoned and rallied and organized by Donald Trump. And that was wrong. And much of that was criminal. We are careful to cover the legalities of individual cases, but convictions have been had, crimes have been proven.
It was a criminal assault not only on democracy, but on the brave and innocent people conducting themselves and trying to defend it. Fear is powerful. But who is afraid right now? If you take nothing else from this, it would appear that Mr. Steve Bannon is the one who`s afraid, afraid of trial, afraid of prison, afraid of actually acting on the propaganda that he spewed at his supporters for so long. That fear, which can focus the mind, is an instrument of the criminal justice system.
Now we turn to our special guest tonight for a one-on-one interview to get into all of this, the former acting solicitor general for the Obama administration, Neal Katyal.
Neal, your reaction to Mr. Bannon`s position, what with its legal deficiencies that we`ll get into a little later in our conversation, but what does it say about aspects of the system potentially working?
NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL: Well, you know, I do think, Ari, it`s a very interesting reversal from Steve Bannon. I mean, this is the one time that Steve Bannon has wanted to check his privilege, and it turns out he doesn`t have any. This is a guy who wasted three chances to do the right thing. He could have volunteered to testify. He could have testified after being subpoenaed or after the criminal referral.
And we`re now a week before his criminal trial, Ari, as you were saying, and now all of a sudden he says he wants to do his duty. And I don`t know what in the world Steve Bannon must have said to Donald Trump to allow him to waive this privilege that he`s never even had in the first place, but I doubt it was an appeal to the greater good. So I agree with you that there`s this fear component on the part of Bannon. He`s got to, particularly after the judge`s ruling today.
But this has always felt to me like some sort of last-ditch attempt by Bannon to try and get in the good graces of the judge and jury for his criminal trial and perhaps also to try and turn the PR narrative, in which the House January 6th Committee has been so successful on, and trying to get a Trump person to testify on live TV.
[18:10:05]
MELBER: Yes. You make several striking points there, including our observation that Mr. Bannon clearly is second-guessing everything he`s ever claimed and said in public. I`m reminded of Vince Staples who rapped, everybody tough until they got to go and see the judge, and there`s a lot of fake toughness here.
Now you mentioned the intricacies. And I do want to get that in as well and the DOJ has had its answer today. And normally that would have been higher in the top of the show, but as mentioned there`s a lot going on. They called it a last-ditch attempt to avoid accountability. And so Neal stays with us as I walk through this part.
Bannon and Trump talking about waiving privilege, which makes it even harder for other indicted Trump aide Peter Navarro to continue with his strategy. You may recall Mr. Navarro has a whole case here that`s been undercut by his supposed buddy Bannon and his former boss, which could have him even more upset than that day he was arrested the way Bannon was on his contempt charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: I was on my way to Nashville today. What did they do? They didn`t call me. Instead of calling me and say, hey, we need you down at court, we`ve got a warrant for you. I would have gladly come. What did they do? They intercepted me getting on the plane and then they put me in handcuffs. They bring me here. They put me in leg irons. They stick me in a cell. That`s punitive. What they did to me today violated the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Fact check, false. Those agents had a warrant. No court has found such a violation. But other judges have pushed back on these Trump pets` views of privilege, as Neal mentioned. And none of this has been a secret. The committee has noted Trump had not invoked privilege for either of these defendants and I raised that point with Navarro myself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The former president has not invoked it publicly or in writing for you.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Our committee has not been given any attempted invocation of executive privilege by Donald Trump.
MELBER: It doesn`t exist for you yet because Donald Trump doesn`t have your back.
NAVARRO: The president is not going to cooperate with a kangaroo committee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Fact check, it`s complicated. The new letter from Trump is a nod towards potential or asserted cooperation, while the DOJ has found evidence that Trump never invoked executive privilege at all in the Bannon case and thus probably not for Navarro, meaning they`re basing a defense on something that literally never happened. That`s how “Politico” put it simply.
So fast forward to today when the judge clears the way for Bannon`s trial, which starts Monday, and the judge ruled against a series of motions that did not go Bannon`s way, as NBC News wrote up today`s proceeding, including, quote, “knocking out several potential defenses he`d raised.” Then Bannon`s lawyer said in the courtroom, quote, “What`s the point of going to trial here if there are no defenses?”
It`s a bad, bad sign, and that was open court. The judge agreed, suggesting Bannon`s team consider that it has basically no actual defenses. There`s no White House privilege defense when Bannon didn`t work at the White House at the time and when Trump didn`t invoke it, which Trump`s own lawyer has now admitted as well in an interview with DOJ agents.
I bring Neal back because, as mentioned, that walks through a lot. Your response about what`s most important about all of that, including the new ruling.
KATYAL: Yes, there`s certainly no executive privilege here, Ari. I mean, Steve Bannon hasn`t worked in the White House since 2017 before I think TikTok was even a thing. And, you know, I think the committee has gotten good evidence. And the Justice Department, even from Trump`s own lawyer, Justin Clark, that Trump has never invoked executive privilege in this matter, and you`ve been on that from the start. But now they have corroboration from Trump`s own attorney.
And so to me, the big thing is this judge`s ruling today. This judge is named Carl Nichols. He`s an extremely well-respected federal judge in Washington, D.C. He was appointed by Donald Trump. He was a high-ranking Justice Department official in the Bush administration, and the judge today just eviscerated Bannon`s defenses. I mean, Bannon`s — really his only argument legally or in mitigation at sentencing is a kind of last-minute declaration that, hey, I`ve finally seen the light. I want to testify. I want to give you the documents and the like.
And, you know, to quote Bannon`s own attorney, as you were saying, what`s the point in going to trial here if there are no defenses left after the judge rejected everything today? I mean, the judge said today that Bannon`s kind of chief defense he`d been trying to make, which is, hey, I had to know what I was doing was illegal but, you know, when Congress made this solemn requests to me and I denied them, and said, no way, I`m not going to give you anything, either you have to prove that I knew that was illegal.
[18:15:09]
Then the judge today says, nope, you just have to — the prosecution just has to prove that it is deliberate and intentional that you withheld these documents at all. That`s it. Not that you needed to know it was wrong or anything like that. And that also eviscerates, Ari, our friend of the show Peter Navarro`s defense, because that is Navarro`s defense as well.
MELBER: Right.
KATYAL: The judge has now ruled against it. Both of these gentlemen are looking at very serious jail time right now.
MELBER: Yes, as you say, very serious jail time and this is — really we got today the full DOJ defense which I quoted from is pretty blistering in places. I mean, they call this the 11th hour, ninth inning basically BS optics train. That`s sort of the essence of the rebuttal.
But I did want to get you on one final intricacy before I lose you, Neal. And that is of course there`s something technical here in the law about the way you deal with people who do defy these requests. And there`s basically a program where you`re trying to get them to comply, and there`s a different way, different laying where you`re just saying, hey, you`re being punished for your past noncompliance, end of story.
The DOJ takes great pains here to say it`s door number two, which means later ninth inning efforts to comply do not, quote, “cure” your past wrong. And I understand that`s their position that — the aggressive position they obviously would take.
My final question to you, Neal, is what would happen, though, if by Monday, say the start of the trial, Mr. Bannon did get in front of this committee or did get a letter from the committee saying that they do see him making a good faith effort or a six-hour sit-down even without documents, can any of that then go in to help him at trial?
KATYAL: It`s possible, Ari, but, I mean, the beauty of these contempt charges that both Bannon and Navarro are facing that they`re designed to elicit information. They punish you because you have — you`ve wasted government`s time for months and months and months, made them spin their wheels while you didn`t give them the evidence that they say they so solemnly need. I mean, here Congress as a whole voted to hold these guys in attempt because they said we need this information. It wasn`t just the committee. It was Congress as a whole.
And, you know, that`s what I find so offensive about Peter Navarro`s clip that you just showed, saying oh, it`s punitive. They put me in leg irons. Yes, no duh. You know, you defy a congressional vote like that when they say we need this evidence, and you say no? Of course you deserve that. I mean, that`s what every person in this country deserves when they don`t, you know, when they don`t adhere to a solemn request for information through duly noted channels.
So to me there`s something really poetic about this man Steve Bannon who after all sought out to deconstruct the administrative state and now he`s going to be sent to prison for failing to follow administrative procedure. If there`s one thing I appreciate more than poetry —
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: Well, if convicted.
KATYAL: — it`s testimony.
MELBER: Yes. And I only have to jump in to say if convicted, which I think is how you meant it.
Well, Neal, you`ve really walked us through on which I think is useful and it speaks to the high stakes going towards Monday. The committee does have stuff it wants from Bannon and they`ve taken great pains to argue they`re not out to, quote, “get Trump people,” they`re out to get information. Mr. Bannon, as you defined, has a very narrow path here to try to cooperate in time in a substantive way that he could fit into the trial.
As I mentioned, he`s presumed innocent legally but facing some really bad evidence, which even his lawyer noted. So, Neal, thank you for being our one-on-one guest here at the top of the program.
KATYAL: Thank you.
MELBER: Appreciate it.
Coming up, what does Bannon know which goes to why the committee is still playing ball here? He is a key fact witness. We have a breakdown. And later tonight, you know we do exclusives around here. You heard Mr. Katyal mentioned our past interviews with Mr. Navarro. Well, tonight we have a live interview of a key witness who`s facing the January 6th Committee with links to so much of what happened that day. We`re going endeavor to get that information for you live right here.
And by the end of the hour, a preview of what is shaping up to be a high stakes hearing tomorrow from this committee, including the insider who we`re told is going to break some of his silence about that controversial and indicted organization, the Oath Keepers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:23:45]
MELBER: Trump aide Steve Bannon trying to fold, and an investigator for the House committee here is saying that the panel would have hours and hour of questions for Mr. Bannon. He does know a lot, and that`s why he mattered as a fact witness, regardless of what you think of his ethics or his tendency to lie as we covered in the beginning of the program.
Just one week before the insurrection, Bannon was urging Trump to focus everything on pressuring Mike Pence. Of course we`d later learned that became an arm of the attempted coup. Four days before the insurrection, well, Bannon had none other than John Eastman on his show, the “War Room,” which is a very particular piece of propaganda that operates within that MAGA movement.
Some of the stuff at the time might have looked downright whacky, but now that Mr. Eastman himself has claimed and invoked the Fifth Amendment on the grounds not to incriminate himself and how much we have learned from the committee and otherwise about alleged crimes, it is interesting to see how they were talking going into the 6th, and Bannon referred to the behind the scenes plans to overturn the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: We`re live from the nation`s capital. It`s 2 January. Massive constitutional fights going on behind the scenes. People don`t understand.
John, first off, this argument of what`s actually happening at the state basis and what happened in the Constitution, that you and I happened to be on a call last night and you were talking people through, it was so brilliant.
[18:25:05]
This is a defining moment. People will remember this one forever. It`s where you were in this fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Just tosses in they were on a call together the night before, that was January 1st. This is January 2nd. You`re days out from something that he was then touting as a world historical event that you`d remember where you were, and you have to remember, on the 2nd, all of this looked like it was running out of gas.
On insurrection eve, Bannon was also linked to key Trump figures at the headquarter at the Willard. He was reportedly in the room when Mike Pence`s chief of staff phone in, complaining that Trump had publicly said Pence would reject the election results, and the statement was that Pence needs to be loyal from the Trump aides who are trying to engineer that. Later the same night, Trump called Bannon reportedly to discuss what happened when he personally pushed Pence on this, and that is all Bannon scheming with the insiders.
Then there are other angles. On the very same day, insurrection eve, it was Bannon — listen to this, because if he does go before the committee, I bet you they ask about it. Bannon then boasting about trying to get the leader of the Proud Boys out of a Washington, D.C. jail cell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their leader is arrested when coming into Washington, D.C.
BANNON: Look, I don`t know those guys really but I`ve got to tell, we put call out last night, Trump would bail out for the guys. It`s not acceptable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Yes, we found that. That is the level of coordination. I mean, either you`re the type of person who`s working on bail for Proud Boys for your own reasons going into the 6th or you`re not, and again, under oath the questions would be, what did you know, why were they so vital, why did you need to spring them right before the 6th?
We`re talking about the chair, the number one official on the Trump 2016 campaign who was also in the White House. If he has direct involvement — I say if because all this has to be investigated — but if he has involvement with the Proud Boys` operational planning that`s a biggie. Bannon also declared in advance of all this that all hell was going to break loose.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. It`s going to be moving, it`s going to be quick. It`s not going to happen like you think it`s going to happen, OK, it`s going to be quite extraordinarily different, and all I can say is strap in. The “War Room,” a posse, you have made this happen, and tomorrow it`s game day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Now, that`s a person who plays a lot of games and has a lot of bravado, but he did sound on record like someone who knew something and was preparing for something big, whether it was big and public and free speech or big and criminal and violently operational is a question DOJ is investigating regardless of what happens in the resolution of his trial about cooperating with Congress.
He would appear to know a lot of things, and so when you take it all in, yes, you can look at Mr. Bannon`s bravado, his ethics, his life story. At the end of the day, this is a very real fact witness if not more. The January 6th Committee has to be looking at all this and questioning whether the real reason he`s been avoiding testifying is not just making one more media spectacle, indeed his effort to get out from under the trial would suggest there`s something other than attention that he`s concerned and whether he is concerned about being in the position where he either has to tell what he knows under oath about Trump and Eastman, and those people, or plead the Fifth.
We`re going to get into the answers to some of these questions with all eyes on Mr. Bannon with Josh Marshall and Melissa Murray when we`re back in one minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[18:30:02]
MELBER: Are you a witness of fact to the investigation regarding obstruction or collusion or both?
BANNON: I think I`m a witness of fact, for all of it. I think I`m a witness of fact, for all of it. It to kind of go through the whole thing. And of course, I`ve been to Capitol Hill, right a couple of times. So, you know, I`m a witness of fact, of there also.
MELBER: How many days did you talk to Mueller`s investigators?
BANNON: I don`t want to go into the details. But I had a very thorough session. Right, he did, it was over several days. I don`t want to be specific about how many.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s what Steve Bannon told us when we interviewed him. That was after his cooperation with the Mueller probe. A reminder that for all of his antics, he has navigated federal probes before, and found ways to cooperate and with the help of Donald Trump, avoid jail. Joining us now is Talking Points Memo founder Josh Marshall and NYU Law Professor Melissa Murray. Welcome to both of you. Josh, do you think he knows things that would be useful to the DOJ or House probe?
JOSH MARSHALL, FOUNDER AND EDITOR, TALKING POINTS MEMO: I mean, it certainly seems so based on his own words. I mean, one of the most interesting things is that podcast or online show or whatever that — whatever that thing he has is, he was basically doing a real-time narrative of the whole plot. I mean, it`s all there in real-time. It`s almost — I don`t know what it`s like.
It`s almost like when you find out later someone was doing a documentary and giving you the sort of the — you know, telling you what was up in real-time and only when the documentary gets released, that you can hear it all. But it was all broadcast in real-time.
So, it certainly seems as your package made clear that he was talking to everyone on the sort of the White House, lawyer, Federalist Society side, and also seemingly on the, you know, fascist paramilitary side. So yes, he seems like he`d be someone who could shed a lot of information on what was going on.
MELBER: Yes, I think you lay that out. And it is interesting, the media aspect, and media is a big part of the whole Trump movement. You know, Professor Murray, no shade to podcasts. There`s a longtime BEAT producer who prefers to get any and all possible information via podcasts, which I always found a bit much. But some podcasts are about, you know, cooking and movie reviews and they`re in more of a (INAUDIBLE) story state if you will.
This thing to Josh`s point was not your normal pot. You got White House people and a lot of others coming in and out talking about what they wanted to do, referring to real actionable things. I want to play, here two days out from the insurrection, talking about converging on the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: This thing`s going to be starting tomorrow, it`s going to be wild, you just like two days. So, it`s incredible, you`re going to be part of history, we want as many people to get here as possible.
All going to converge on that point on the 6th, we`re all going to converge there. We just got to impose our wills, like in football, you have to impose your will on the opposition —
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Professor?
MELISSA MURRAY, LAW PROFESSOR, NYU: Well, as Josh says, I mean, it`s really more than just a podcast, it seems to be a media channel for giving marching orders to this army, that they are basically propelling toward the Capitol for this purpose. So, in a sense, it`s almost like the kind of Radio Free Europe that you might have had, you know, the arm of this particular resistance.
And if I were Steve Bannon`s lawyer, I might be really worried because it`s clear from all of his podcasting efforts, that this is a person who really likes to imagine himself at the center of things. And I imagine, in this particular circumstance, this is not a place where you want your client to be in the center of things.
You actually want them to be as far away from the center of things as possible. And I`m not sure that Steve Bannon will have the discipline to remove himself or to basically not present himself as being central to all of this.
MELBER: Yes, Josh, I mean, we showed a bit of what I interviewed him and I — we sat for an hour and I found him to be cagey, strategic, political, but he gave many answers that corresponded to or related to the truth because we fact-checked, we researched. Strong disagreement about his worldview, we could get into that.
But he didn`t strike me as one of these random hacks, who repeats a talking point and doesn`t have any detail. He seemed to be someone who had a mastery of details to the professor`s point. That may hurt him if all the records stack up just how informed he was about the intent of the day.
MARSHALL: Yes, I mean, you know, it`s — as you — as I think you said in your introductory package, if you had — if you were listening to this stuff, you know, if you weren`t a MAGA person, and you`re listening to this stuff in real-time, you know, a year and a half ago, you probably say, wow, this is crazy. Like, you know, this is not what we`re hearing here.
But when the next day you see it all happen, then you go back to Steve Bannon say, Steve, let`s talk because it really seems like you knew what was going on here since you predicted all of it, basically. And all the players were, you know, converging on your show. So, yes, I would imagine that, you know, I guess it`s an open question how much he was involved in specific bad acts.
[18:35:00]
You know, I need you guys as the lawyers to tell me how bad an act is it to be talking to all the people committing the bad acts. But it seems almost certain that he knows a lot of information that would be damaging to a lot of people. And he may well himself, you know, be facing Jeopardy. I mean, look, he seems to me like someone, what you`ve seen over the last three to six hours, he has been saying a big F.U., to the whole justice system and the whole political system for the last year and a half.
And he seems now like someone who`s just kind of out of time. And you know, he`s like Tessio, at the end of The Godfather asking for a break from Tom Hagen. But there`s no Tom Hagen. There`s no one to ask. And so, he`s just kind of, you know, scrambling, flailing, and that`s what I see.
MELBER: He needs a wartime consigliere, and they`ve all run out of town. Professor?
MURRAY: Well, it`s also worth remembering that at the point in time, when he was broadcasting these messages on his podcast, he was likely actively involved in negotiating the terms of the pardon he would ultimately receive when the president left office.
So that`s also in the background here that you have to remember that, you know, is he particularly invested in what is happening because he`s somehow beholden to this administration because of the clemency he was seeking and ultimately did receive.
MELBER: And like a good lawyer —
MARSHALL: That`s a really good point, yes.
MELBER: Yes, as Josh said, it`s a good point. I was going to say, you know, they say, like a good neighbor, one of the insurance companies is there. I don`t need to give free advertising. But like a good lawyer, Melissa Murray is there with the final point. Mr. Bannon was at that time also trying to get out from under a federal criminal trial for defrauding.
Among others, MAGA and Trump supporters for this convoluted Build the Wall fundraiser where they allegedly pilfered money. Trial wasn`t resolved, because he got the pardon as mentioned. But that was the incentive to be as helpful as possible to Donald Trump`s possibly criminal effort to stay in office. And so, he may have done everything then for that reason, and he`s still held the line up till this weekend. I`m overtime but Josh, finish your thought.
MARSHALL: Really quick point, as you said before, Steve Bannon in the past as bad as a guy he is he may be, he`s always seemed to me, pretty shrewd about what not to touch, what not to touch to get himself in big trouble. And the — the pardon issue may be why he didn`t just touch it here. He grabbed the handlebars and he rode the thing forward.
Because it seems clear to me, he`s — you know, he`s neck-deep in this, and trying to get out of under an indictment with serious jail time would be a pretty good — pretty good reason to do that.
MELBER: Yes, you both kind of buttoned it up. And it also speaks to the motivation to go beyond normal politics, normal grandiosity. But to ironically, it`s almost Oedipal. And you remember — you remember M.C. Oedipus, Melissa?
It`s almost Oedipal, that his fervor to get out from under one criminal trial has landed him here and another one. We`ll come back to all of this Joshua and Melissa, good to see you. As we talk about the malicious and the violence. We have more on that tonight and a January 6 Committee witness with links to Bannon live next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:43:04]
MELBER: This is one of those days to start the week where there`s just a lot of different news and now, we turn to an exclusive interview with a January 6 Committee witness. The committee wanted to hear from him. So do we. Dustin Stockton it was one of the actual organizers of the January 6th rally that preceded the attack on the Capitol. This was the rally where people were listening to speeches. This is before and different from the march on the Capitol. Here he was speaking out one day before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DUSTIN STOCKTON, JANUARY 6 TRUMP RALLY ORGANIZER: Obviously, we know what`s going to happen in the Capitol, and that we need these legislators to do the right thing. We need them to look at the evidence that this election was stolen, and then do the right thing because if our votes don`t count, nothing counts.
(End VT)
MELBER: Now after the insurrection, he did cooperate as mentioned with the committee, and testified about communications with the Trump White House and with House Republicans. Stockton has links to Mr. Bannon through the effort that actually a prior guest mentioned this fundraiser to build a border wall with people`s money, citizen money.
It was a project that actually led to Bannon`s indictment for fraud and then the pardon he got after working so vociferously on all these efforts for Trump. Dustin Stockton joins me now. I appreciate you coming on THE BEAT, sir.
STOCKTON: Ari, thanks for having me back. I appreciate being here on Steve Bannon day.
MELBER: Well, there it is. Let`s start there. Your reaction to both his defiance, different from, as we noted the way you approach the request for your testimony. And now what he`s doing over the weekend, which he says is with Donald Trump`s blessing.
STOCKTON: Well, as you said, I am one of the cofounders of We Build the Wall and that project that did successfully complete a segment of border wall I should say, and the one person who has gone to trial and ended in a hung jury, so we`re not sure where that stands. So, I did want to point that out. But I do want to say, man, he is overpaying for his legal representation.
[18:45:00]
I have a great lawyer, Josh Nass, has been representing me, as a friend, I don`t have the same resources that Steve has. But he told me, you know, I had deep reservations about working with the committee, because of partisan reasons and politics. And he told me, this is the system, this is what you have to deal with. And the only thing you can do is comply and comply completely. And we follow that to the tee.
We took a lot of heat of it, in part because Steve was out there saying, you know, giving the finger to the committee and saying that he wasn`t going to cooperate in any way. And that caused a lot of backlash for those of us who decided to comply, and fall early, and that people were wondering why we were caving to this committee.
Well, it`s the law and it`s our duty as Americans, this is the committee we have, it was the Republican`s decision not to have people on the committee to cross-examine and to provide another format. So, this is what we`re stuck with. And, you know, Steve —
MELBER: So, to pick up on that point, I mean, you`re basically saying that, in that world, Mr. Bannon`s claim that he would defy to the end made it harder for other people to both do and explain their cooperation. What do you think now that it looks like — I mean, do you think he`s been consistent or do you think he`s sort of reversed himself?
STOCKTON: Well, he — he`s obviously run out of options. And the — you know, when you can afford the white-shoe law firms that Steve can afford, you often think that there`s a different set of rules, because in America, if you can afford great lawyers, often there are separate rules for you and for other people. So, you know, Steve`s found out though, that in this instance, this committee is not messing around this — the Department of Justice is not messing around on this.
The actions that happen that day were serious, there`s no denying it. The violence and the problems that it caused. So, there`s no getting around that. And Steve`s finding that out the hard way, and, you know, his 11th hour to try to fix it — you know, I hope the committee will take up this opportunity to talk to him and let him testify. And he can avoid any kind of you to jail.
I listened to your last segment, and I think the panelists were pretty spot on. Steve is very shrewd. He`s also very cautious. He`s been navigating professional politics for a long time. He knows how to keep himself out of trouble. So, I hope that they`ll take his testimony and that it`ll be revealing.
MELBER: Yes, well, I think you make a fair point, especially because the process here is supposed to yield the information, as I emphasized, not target anyone for who they are or what they happen to believe. Although legally, he`s put himself in quite a spot. So that`s Bannon. I also want to ask you about what we expect to learn in tomorrow`s hearing.
Reading some reporting hear about these Oath Keepers and Proud Boys. As mentioned, you were planning the rally that day or you were one of the people. And the select committee now has testimony about contacts between militia group readers, far-right political operatives, and quote, rally organizers, which could play a role in establishing whether Trump oversaw a quote criminal conspiracy.
Rally organizers there is a term that applies to what the committee believes the evidence shows are some of those people, you are on the inside and you`ve talked to the committee about the split. Did you witness in any way other organizers working directly with those militia groups, or having a plan to turn a rally into an invasion of the Capitol?
STOCKTON: Yes, well, we definitely saw some of the other organizers that was a definitive split between the group that put together the ellipse, the rally at the ellipse in the morning, and the group who was planning a rally at the Capitol. In fact, the group that was putting on the rally, the ellipse made several efforts to stop any other rallies from happening.
Specifically, in part, because the people who were organizing it, we`re using vastly different rhetoric than we were using far more revolutionary and violent and they were —
MELBER: And let me ask you because I have — I just have 30 seconds left. When you talk about that rhetoric, did you hear it before the 6th as storming the Capitol, was at that precise, those folks?
STOCKTON: It wasn`t — It`s hard to go back and look now and say what was rhetorical and what wasn`t. What we remember, though, is that tensions were extremely high. And we had an obligation to tamp those down to be able to present ourselves as a reasonable political movement. And there were people who were not following that, and they were the ones pushing people to go to the Capitol.
And we weren`t pushing our people not to participate that in any way. And of course, when Trump sent people to the Capitol it felt like an affront to us that he had kind of taken that more radical side and made no sense to us. And it goes to my speech before. What we expected that day at the rally at the ellipse was a presentation of detailed evidence.
[18:50:00]
I listened to that clip on myself on January 5th, and in my head, I was so confident and sure that what was going to happen at the rally at the ellipse was a presentation of evidence of the fraud that we`ve been hearing about kind of — we didn`t see that happen.
MELBER: And I have to jump in for time, but people can debate the information, although people are free in America to present their views. As you say, it was very interesting hearing you say that you thought Donald Trump sending the people down was siding with what you`d cautioned about a bit concerned about which was the violent side. And so Dustin Stockton, appreciate you coming on THE BEAT. I hope you`ll come back, sir.
STOCKTON: Hey, thanks for having me and anytime.
MELBER: Absolutely, we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:55:25]
MELBER: There will be another January 6 hearing tomorrow focusing on those violent groups and how they are linked to people in the Trump groupings. A former veteran of the Oath Keepers testifying live.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL), JANUARY 6 SELECT COMMITTEE MEMBER: The president`s tweet on the wee hours of December 19th of be there be wild was a siren call to these folks. And we`ll talk in detail about what that caused them to do, how that caused them to organize.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The committee also had that breakthrough of the Trump White House counsel finally testifying. So, some of that could be aired tomorrow, the way we`ve seen video depositions. You can see all of it with our special coverage beginning on MSNBC at 12:30 p.m. Eastern. We`ll have a special edition of THE BEAT tomorrow.
And I will join Rachel and our whole team for a primetime recap, as we`ve continued to do in the spirit of those Watergate hearings, letting people know at night what happened if they were working or busy during the day that begins at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. And right now, “THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID” is up next.
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