Updated
Summary
New York Times reports on January 5, Marc Short, vice president`s chief of staff, called Pence`s lead Secret Service agent to his West Wing office and told him President Trump was going to turn publicly against the Vice President and there could be a security risk to Pence because of it. Trump adviser Peter Navarro was arrested and charged with two counts of contempt of Congress for failing to comply with a subpoena issued by the January 6 Committee. Mike Pence`s chief of staff alerted the Secret Service of risk to Mike Pence on eve of January 6.
Transcript
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: She said she was influenced by the great Naomi Osaka and by Colin Kaepernick to speak out. Tomorrow is her first ever Grand Slam final match. She`s the youngest finalist for nearly 20 years. She`s amazing. She is my Who Won the Week.
I want to thank Fernand Amandi, Dean Obeidallah, my buddies, I appreciate y`all. That is tonight`s “REIDOUT.” ALL IT WITH CHRIS HAYES starts now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voiceover): Tonight on ALL IN. A January 6 bombshell
JONATHAN KARL, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT FOR ABC NEWS: Were you worried about him during that siege? Were you worried about —
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I thought he was well-protected, and I heard that he was in good shape.
HAYES: New reporting from New York Times one day before January 6, the Vice President`s chief of staff warned security detail that the President was going to publicly turn against Mike Pence and put his personal security at risk.
TRUMP: I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so.
HAYES: Tonight, former Pence aide Olivia Troye on confirmation of our worst fears. Former impeachment manager Joe Neguse on why we didn`t know this during the impeachment trial. And former DHS Secretary Jeh Johnson, and what this means about how close we came to a successful coup.
Then, the surprise arrest of an alleged coup plotter.
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: They intercepted me getting on the plane, and they put me in handcuffs, bring me here.
HAYES: Ari Melber on what we know about the arrest of Peter Navarro and what it means for the criminal investigation of the President.
NAVARRO: We had over 100 congressmen and senators on Capitol Hill ready to implement the sweep.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Do you realize you`re describing a coup?
HAYES: When ALL IN starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES (on camera): Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. The ex- President of the United States, Donald Trump, created such an acute security threat to his own Vice President Mike Pence in pursuit of his attempted coup, that Pence`s chief of staff warned the Secret Service on January 5 that he thought the VP would be in danger the next day.
This newest reporting comes from the New York Times. It breaks just days before the bipartisan committee investigating the six is set to begin his public hearings with even more revelations sure to come. Now, we have known for a long time in the days before January 6, there was a target on Mike Pence. He was under enormous pressure from Trump and his allies to go along with the coup by essentially throwing out electors from states that voted for President Joe Biden and handing victory to Trump instead.
We know Pence tried to get to yes, calling allies and advisers including former Vice President Dan Quayle to see if he could find a way to justify overturning the results of a free and fair election before ultimately determining that he could not. But that did not stop Trump and his fellow coup plotters who knew that Pence was unwilling to cooperate from turning the screws.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I hope Mike is going to do the right thing. I hope so. I hope so. Because if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election.
Mike Pence, I hope you`re going to stand up for the good of our Constitution and for the good of our country. And if you`re not, I`m going to be very disappointed in you. I will tell you right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That`s the message that the crowd gathered at the Ellipse heard right before Trump whipped them up to a frenzy and then sent them, instructed them, invited them to march towards the Capitol where of course thousands of them broke into the building, assaulting police officers, and chanting hang Mike Pence. They even erected a gallows with a noose outside the building.
Naturally, the Secret Service took the angry mob, some of them chanting hang Mike Pence, pretty seriously. The Secret Service came to retrieve Pence from the Senate chamber where he was presiding over the joint session to ratify Biden`s victory where he was doing the thing that Donald Trump didn`t want him to do that the crowd didn`t want him to do. And we know some of what happened next thanks to reporting from Washington Post journalist Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig.
“The lead special agent in charge of the Vice President`s protective detail twice asked pence to evacuate the Capitol, but Pence refused saying I`m not leaving the Capitol. The third time it was more of an order than a request. Pence`s detail guided them down to a staircase to a secure subterranean area that rioters couldn`t reach where the Vice President`s armored limousine awaited.
So, Pence is now somewhere beneath the Capitol with Secret Service agents urging him to get in his limo and flee the scene. Just listen to Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland who sits on this bipartisan committee which has been investigating the insurrection for nearly a year now describe what happened next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): So, when his secret service agents, including one of them who had — was carrying the nuclear football with him were chased out by these neo-fascists and they ran down to some still undisclosed, mysterious place in the Capitol.
He uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I`ve seen so far. He said, I`m not getting in that car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:05:23]
HAYES: I`m not getting in that car. This is the moment of truth. Remember, Pence is under tremendous pressure to go along with the coup. He`s decided that he won`t go along with the coup. And he knows the president hates him because of it. And insurrectionist mob just broke into the building with the stated intention of publicly executing him. The Secret Service is demanding that they usher him to safety and Pence refuses to get in the car.
Now, up until today, here`s where there has been some ambiguity, because there are basically two ways to read what happened there. The first is that Pence simply did not want to show weakness in the face the mob. He didn`t want the image of what that would mean. This is the argument his chief of staff Marc Short outlined last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE: He said I`m not leaving. And the reason you say he`s not leaving is because he said he did not want our adversaries across the globe to see a 15 car motorcade fleeing the Capitol.
I think he exerted enormous leadership under enormous pressure. And I think he, again, despite efforts to have him evacuate, he said, I don`t want that visual for the world to see. I`m going to stay here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Now, there`s likely some truth to that idea. But new evidence points to Pence`s motivations as being a little more complicated than that. There is ample reasonably that Trump wanted Pence out of the picture so that the coup could go on without him because he knew that Pence wouldn`t play ball.
But remember, we`ve just learned this last few days because according to a newly uncovered memo, written by a Trump lawyer and sent to Rudy Giuliani, one that a judge found to not be covered by the crime-fraud exception and privilege, meaning that it was evidence and possibly a crime, that in this memo, right, they spell out a possibility of basically just going around Pence.
If Pence would somehow just recuse himself from election certification, if Pence says, OK, fine, I won`t do it but I`ll step back. Well, then a Trump ally, who is willing to go along with coup could take his place. Again, quoting from the memo, “Iowa Republican Senator Chuck Grassley or another senior Republican majority member would become the presiding officer of the joint session and begin the election certification.
And from there, it would be just a matter of following the instructions in Trump lawyer, Johnston`s coup memo and hand the victory to Trump. So, again, this is key. Think about this. We know there was a plan in place to do the coup without Pence, right? If you get rid of Pence and someone else is presiding because it`s the presiding person at the fulcrum.
Now, we also know that people in Pence`s inner circle were extremely suspicious of what lengths Trump would go to get Pence out of the way. And I mean, like, physically out of the way.
Rucker and Leonnig reported one exchange between a guy named Anthony Ornato, a Trump loyalists and senior Secret Service agent, and a Pence advisor named Keith Kellogg. ” Ornato who oversaw Secret Service moments told Kellogg that Pence`s detail was planning to move the vice president Joint Base Andrews. Again, this is on January 6, OK.
Kellogg replied, you can`t do that, tony. Leave him where he`s at. He`s got a job to do. I know you guys too well. You`ll fly him to Alaska if you have a chance. Don`t do it. Again, when I first encountered that bit of reporting, I didn`t quite get what he was alluding to, like you`re flying or Alaska, right? If Pence isn`t there, someone else can preside. If someone else can preside, someone else can do the coup as the memo spells out.
So, one of Pence`s advisors reportedly thought the Secret Service under the guidance of Trump loyalists was hatching a plot to physically get Pence out of the picture so the coup could go on without him. And this appears to be the theory that Congressman Raskin has endorsed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RASKIN: The Secret Service agents who presumably are reporting to Trump`s Secret Service agents who were trying to spirit him off of the campus. And he said, I`m not getting in that car until we count the Electoral College votes. He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do.
This was not a coup directed at the president. It was a coup directed by the president against the Vice President and against the Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Then just today, we got a new piece of evidence and that must have been weighing pretty heavily on Pence`s mind, right? So, as Maggie Herrmann reports the New York Times on January 5, one day before all this goes down, Marc Short, vice president`s chief of staff, called Pence`s lead Secret Service agent to his West Wing office. Come here, I have to talk to you about something. And the chief of staff had a message for the agent. The President Trump was going to turn to publicly against the Vice President and there could be security risk to Pence because of it.
[20:10:17]
Just take a second to digest this. We`ve gotten sort of used to a lot of this. But right, the vice president`s chief of staff on January 5, the day before January 6, that the Vice President was going to put in physical danger because of the President, because the President would go after him publicly in a way that would target and incite violence towards him.
And guess what? Pretty good prediction, right? Pretty prescient, pretty prescient warning, entirely valid. In fact, we now know also from reporting the times that while the angry mob was storming the Capitol, chanting, hang Mike Pence, Trump was at the very least, open to the idea. “Trump`s chief of staff Mark Meadows told colleagues that Trump had said something to the effect of maybe Pence should be hanged.”
So, in that moment, in the undisclosed location at the Capitol, Pence had every reason to be worried about his image, worried about the attempted coup. And we now know worrying for his life. He knew the President was going to abandon him, but more than that turned against him, and that the President`s supporters might turn violent, in fact, had turned violent. His worst nightmare was coming true.
Trump was pursuing any strategy possible to hold on to power by any means necessary. And at that point, because Pence would not play ball he was an obstacle. Anything that would remove him from physically being able to dispatch his duties would be to Trump`s benefit to further the plot, whether that meant Pence was shipped to Alaska, or the crowd just got their hands on.
Olivia Troye was a White House Homeland Security Adviser Mike Pence before she resigned from the Trump administration. She is now the chief strategy officer to the New American Movement, political initiative to promote democracy and combat political extremism. And she joins me now.
Olivia, it`s great to have you. I mean, I you work to all these individuals, so there`s a sort of personal connection here and I didn`t, but I still found the revelation today of Short calling the Secret Service agent into his office in the West Wing the day before this goes down to warn him about what is about to happen just mind-blowing.
OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER TO MIKE PENCE: Yes, look, I read that case and it was chilling to me. Knowing Marc Short well, having worked with them, and knowing the former Vice President Mike Pence role, I — you know, when you read this, it sounds like you`re reading something in a Tom Clancy novel, right? But except for the fact that this is actual real life. This happened in the White House. This happened in the United States in what is a democracy, a functioning democracy for now, right.
And that is why this is so incredibly upsetting to kind of process every time I see a new story like this break because I had grave concern. I was concerned for Mike Pence`s life. I was concerned about what the threat were looking like and what was going to happen on January 6.
And look, I was concerned because I know who Donald Trump is, and I know what he`s capable of. And I know what that inner circle is like what they – – when somebody speaks out against them. I`ve lived that. And I certainly feared for the fact that I knew — you know, I had confidence that Mike Pence would do the right thing that day. But I knew that by doing the right thing that day, that meant that he was crossing Trump. And when you do that, there are no boundaries to what that man is capable of doing.
And so, reading this, I have no doubt that there was fear in Marc Short and he knew what they were up against that day.
HAYES: Yes, I mean, I think what is becoming clearer and clearer to me — I think there`s two ways — I think everyone who is paying attention, particularly aftermath of January 6 understood how serious what happened on that day was. I think, aside from you know, a bunch of sort of like, paid propaganda, sort of like, you know, glib idiots who are trying to, you know, wipe it away.
Like, everyone understands what happened that day was serious. There`s two sort of ways of understanding it, right? One is that the President is deluded and infantile and stubborn and got caught up in these conspiracy theories and just like refuse to let go and kind of stomped his feet around and was — and was facilitated by other people and it all got out of hand in the end. Like, it got — it got out of control of them this is what happened.
The other is that they had a deliberate plot to take seize power that they went about attempting to implement. And when it became clear that Pence was an obstacle, part of the plan meant removing him from the equation.
[20:15:24]
TROYE: Yes, it`s full on staging a coup to overturn a free and fair election, right? And that is what the — what is at stake here. That is the most important piece of thi. because I also — because when I look at this, I think about the fact that Trump is still out there. This is — this circle of people still like this out there. And this influence is still out there in our political system. And what does that mean for the future of our country when we`re learning these facts real time about what happened real-time back then?
And like, as we go through these hearings on January 6, this is why it matters. It`s important for Americans to really realize how — the gravity of the situation that moment and all of the things that led up to it and what was really happening here. This is the President of the United States directly putting the Vice President`s life in danger. That is just unbelievable.
And there`s no one — I don`t care what political affiliation you belong to — no one should be OK with that. No one should be — no one should give that a pass.
HAYES: And when you talk about the looming threat, right? This is an individual who is probably the front riser for the party`s nomination in 2024 should he choose to run, Well, I can`t help but think. And I know you left the administration quite, you know, nobly I think in a way that very few others did. It`s part of why I enjoy having you in my program because I think you did it with real integrity in a way that very few did.
And the people left behind Marc Short who you worked for, right, he could have told the impeachment hearing this. I mean, they could have made this public. Like, it may have had an effect. Like, there might have been enough votes to convict the president and make him — you know, bar him from future office and the country would be better off just unequivocally and they didn`t do that.
TROYE: Yes, absolutely. I like I worked very closely with General Kellogg as well. And so, that story, it doesn`t surprise me because he knows — he knows these people well. He knows what they`re capable of. And so for him to say, you know, I know what you`re capable of doing, that, you know, he would take Mike Pence out of the equation, it`s because I believe that story wholeheartedly. I`ve seen Kellogg, actually speak the truth in meetings.
But the problem is, Kellogg is back in line. He is one of Trumps biggest loyalists still today. That is what is so insane about this entire situation. And so, these voices, everybody needs the truth. Everybody lived what I lived during my tenure there. We all saw this firsthand. And so, now, we`re getting these stories and books and everything that are coming forward. But in the moment when it mattered, all of these people were going to allow this person to get reelected to office. That`s the bottom line.
And they were going along with it until the plan got out of control, and January 6 happened and that mob showed up. And then there was no longer putting this back in the box, right? But that — looking forward, that`s what I worry about for upcoming elections. And that`s what I worry about looking at the horizon of 2024. What does this all mean when all of these voices that could have made a big difference back then fall back in line and allow potentially for us to be in a situation that could lead to a murder like this again?
HAYES: Olivia Troye, thank you very much. I appreciate it. Up next, what this latest revelation means for those public hearings into January 6 which are right around the corner as senior Trump aide Peter Navarro gets arrested for contempt of Congress. That`s coming up.
[20:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HAYES: It`s been about a year and a half since the January 6 insurrection. We`re still learning explosive new details about what happened on that day and in the days leading up to it. The latest bombshell of course, that according to New York Times, Marc Short the chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence went out of his way, the day before the mob storm over the Capitol in a highly unusual action to warn Pence`s, lead Secret Service agent the Vice President could be in danger because Donald Trump would turn on him. And we`re learning this less than a week before the January 6 Committee kicks off their first primetime hearing.
Congressman Joe Neguse is a Democrat from Colorado who was an impeachment manager for Trump`s second impeachment for inciting insurrection on January 6, and he joins me now. Congressman, it`s good to have you. I think I know the answer this question but like you didn`t know this, did you?
REP. JOE NEGUSE (D-CO): Good to be with you, Chris. No, no, I certainly wasn`t aware of the reporting that was just announced earlier today. I mean, we of course, I was there on January 6, as were the vast majority of the impeachment managers. We knew the threat that was posed to. I was on the floor of the House from 8:00 p.m. until 4:00 a.m. until we certified the election results.
I can remember very vividly shaking Vice President Pence`s hand in the early morning hours as we finally certified the election and discharged our duties. But no, I wasn`t aware of the particulars, and it clearly underscores not just the danger that our republic was facing as a result of the President`s actions and his acolytes, but the real threat and danger sure that was posed to the Vice President himself in terms of his personal security.
I agree with my friend Jamie Raskin. The reported words that the Vice President uttered in that entire episode are some of the most chilling that I`ve seen in terms of what happened on January 6.
[20:25:14]
HAYES: Yes. And again, I don`t want to — I`m glad that Marc Short has cooperated to the committee. I`m glad that committee knows this information. It`s important and I`m eagerly looking forward to hearing. It would have helped during the impeachment hearing, I feel like, am I crazy, if the Vice President`s people have been like, yes, you know, the President did paint a big target on Mike Pence`s back and like the hang Mike Pence thing wasn`t short of an accident. Like, I think that could have had an effect.
NEGUSE: You`re certainly not wrong. I do think it would have had an effect. Clearly the January 6 Committee has had the benefit of time and the ability to have the space to conduct compulsory process and issue subpoenas and be able to propound document requests. It`s one of the reasons why the hearings next week will be so important.
But no, I agree with you. And look, I think part of the challenge here is you teed it up really well. Clearly, the president, the former president was impeached for inciting the attack on the Capitol, but the subtext was always this conspiracy to ultimately subvert the peaceful transfer of power.
And you see that plainly in the Eastman emails. And I think one of the central threads that you`ve sort of begun to — and others I think are trying to trace is precisely what happened with respect to the Vice President.
HAYES: Yes. I want to play this thing. I keep coming back to the — there`s two things. There`s something that your colleague Gallego said — Congressman Gallego said and something that Pence said. Both the same thing which is like don`t leave the Capitol, right? Like, even though the security situation is bad, like don`t get the guy.
But here`s what Ruben Gallego put it, and I want to ask you a question. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RUBEN GALLEGO (D-AZ): I saw a bunch of buses pull up, and they were buses to evacuate us. And let me tell you, in coups, when you leave the Capitol, you`ve lost. And so, I started texting every member I could, and all of our text chains, like do not leave. Like, if they tell you to leave, like do not leave. Like you`re safer staying here. Like, if we get on those buses, there`s no guarantee we`re ever coming back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: You know, that sounds scary and might hit some people`s ears it`s hyperbolic. But what I keep coming back to which I don`t think people truly appreciate, the violence and everything can be seen as an accident of everyone getting out ahead or as part of the plan. And then ultimately, to the extent that the Congress is not there, or Mike Pence can`t preside, the thing that Donald Trump wants to prevent can`t happen.
NEGUSE: I think you`re precisely right. And I agree with my colleague, Representative Gallego. You know, we had spent weeks, Chris, preparing rebuttals to the objections that we knew we`d be made on January 6, myself Representative Raskin, Chairman Schiff, and Chairwoman Lofgren. And one of the outstanding questions that bedeviled us throughout that entire process was what would the vice president do? Would he discharge his duties faithfully or would he subvert the Constitution as the former president and his allies wanted him to do.
And of course, one of the outstanding questions is what happens if the vice president decides not to preside for nefarious reasons? And of course, you touched on this in terms of some of the reporting around the Senate Pro Tem, Senator Grassley, perhaps serving in that role rather than the vice president.
So, yes, I mean, clearly, we came very close to the brink, in my view, of losing our Republic, the ability for our country to continue functioning as a constitutional republic. And I suspect we`re going to learn a lot more starting next Thursday evening as the January 6 Committee begins these public hearings and begins to kind of tell the story that so many Americans have not been able to quite yet see.
HAYES: All right, Congressman Joe Neguse, as always, thank you for your time.
NEGUSE: Thank you.
HAYES: Coming up, my colleague Ari Melber on the arrest of one of his guests last night, admitted coup plotter and senior Trump aide Peter Navarro. That`s ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:33:34]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER DONALD TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: They intercepted me getting on the plane, and then they put me in handcuffs. They bring me here. They put me in leg irons. They stick me in a cell. By the way, just historical mode. I was in John Hinckley`s cell. They seem to think that that was like an important historical note.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, NBC NEWS HOST: Big feelings there, guy. This morning, apparently while he was at an airport on his way to Nashville to appear on Mike Huckabee show, Trump adviser Peter Navarro was arrested and charged with two counts of contempt of Congress for failing to comply with a subpoena issued by the January 6 Committee.
The first charge was for failing to appear for a deposition, the second for refusing to turn over documents.
Thank God, Peter Navarro said he`s been very open about being in the middle of Trump`s plot to steal the election, even though he was refusing to cooperate with January 6 Committee.
Navarro kept talking publicly about how the plan was supposed to work. He did very specifically back in January with my colleague, Ari Melber.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: The plan was simply this, we had over a hundred congressmen and senators on Capitol Hill ready to implement the sweep. The sweep was simply that we were going to challenge the results of the election in six battleground states.
These were the places where we believed that if the votes were sent back to those battleground states, and looked at again, that there would be enough concern amongst the legislatures that most or all of those states would decertify the election that would throw the election to the House of Representatives.
[20:35:07]
ARI MELBER, CHIEF LEGAL CORRESPONDENT: You`re describing the way that the incumbent — hold on, you will get your turn, I just let you go for a while. Let`s go this back and forth, sir.
Then, you will use the incumbent losing party`s power, that was the Republican Party that was losing power to overtake and reverse that outcome. Do you realize you`re describing a coup?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That T.V. appearance on this network was entered into the public record by the January 6 Committee back in March when they officially voted to recommend contempt charges, again, Peter Navarro.
Then earlier this week, Navarro filed a lawsuit against the committee in which he revealed that he also had been subpoenaed by a federal grand jury in D.C. And you would think that maybe having a possible criminal contempt charge in the Department of Justice and then being subpoenaed by a grand jury would be a reason to maybe lay low to avoid talking so much.
But no, last night, Peter Navarro went back to talk to Ari Melber on the eve of his criminal indictment being unsealed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: The seriousness for me Ari, is you know, the average lifespan in America for an American male is 76 years old. If I were to go to prison for a year, which is what the contempt of charge could do to me, that would be about a fourth of my remaining life, and there would be a fine that would take a significant portion of my retirement savings. So, I`m taking this very seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Can`t think of anyone more qualified to talk about Peter Navarro`s current predicament than Ari Melber when he joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:41:11]
HAYES: So this afternoon, Donald Trump`s trade adviser Peter Navarro appeared in court after being charged with two counts of criminal contempt of Congress for refusing to cooperate with January 6 Committee.
Each count carries a maximum of one year in jail and a fine of up to $100,000. Navarro was released without bail, ordered to return to court on two weeks.
He spoke to reporters on the steps of the courthouse where he said he will represent himself in court because he does not want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers.
In November, the Department of Justice charged Trump Adviser Steve Bannon with the same two charges for his refusal to cooperate with the committee.
The House also recommended charges against Trump`s Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and another advisor Dan Scavino, who have both refused or Meadows started to and then stopped.
But the New York Times reports tonight the DOJ will not bring charges against those two men. It`s possible that no journalist has spent more time talking to Peter Navarro than Ari Melber, he`s MSNBC`s Chief Legal Correspondent as well of course as the host of “THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER” 6:00 Eastern weeknights here on MSNBC.
Great to see you.
MELBER: Good to see you, Chris.
HAYES: I haven`t seen you in person in a while.
MELBER: It`s been a minute.
HAYES: So, it`s really nice to see you in person. First, let`s start with Navarro chargers. What do you make of them? How expected versus surprising was the development today?
MELBER: Well, it all came at him fast because there was this amount of time where he`d been held in contempt and people were wondering what the DOJ was going to do.
And then he got hit with a criminal subpoena, which is a big deal and a separate track. And then he filed his own civil suit leaking in the suit his own grand jury subpoena which is allowed but unusual.
And then, we learned that this indictment was put under seal yesterday. So, when he walked in for the interview, which you just played some from last night, he was secretly under sealed but he didn`t know that, no one else knew that.
And the reason for that is because the Justice Department was able to prove to a judge that Mr. Navarro legally should be treated like a fugitive, like someone who is a flight risk, or who might commit new crimes like tampering or destroying evidence. And that`s why he was apprehended at the airport, which is you showed moments ago, he was upset about it.
HAYES: Yes, there were two things about this. There`s the charges, which are not that surprising, given the fact that he flatly refused this lawful subpoena and was referred for it. And then there was the means by which he was brought in. And there was definitely a like, do you know who I am reaction from him and a lot of people in Trump world today were like, how dare you?
MELBER: Yes. And I thought, that`s where — yes, he might be a valuable person, he might be a character, Donald Trump has hired a lot of characters, it`s the most diplomatic way I can put it.
But as your reporting has shown throughout tonight, this is larger than any one person`s personality. That attitude that idea of being above the law, this law should only be used against others.
He also said in our interview last night and alluded to this in his own lawsuit, he`s threatening other people in government. He is pushing back on this by saying when Republicans take power, he will work with them to go after Biden, to impeach him, to use legal tools against other Democrats. This continues the normalization we`ve all been covering. That`s itself a confession.
HAYES: The law as an instrumental use to attain power to reward friends and punish enemies, which has been the kind of ethos for the Trump people from the beginning.
So, I want to also ask you about the decision we just got, right? So, right before you came here, the New York Times reporting the Justice Department has declined to take similar steps against Mr. Meadows and Trump`s final Chief of Staff and Dan Scavino, the Deputy Chief of Staff, that`s according to people familiar with prosecutors decision in a letter reviewed by the Times informing the top House Counsel of it.
So, if I`m keeping track of this and I might not be correct and I`m wrong. So, you had four referrals, right? There were four people who refused. Bannon and Navarro are getting prosecuted. Scavino and Meadows are not. How do you make sense of that legally?
[20:45:07]
MELBER: It`s a great question. And we`ve learned more about what the Garland part of the DOJ has been doing in this week than we have I think, collectively in March.
HAYES: Yes. They were very — it was the part of the iceberg we didn`t see.
MELBER: And so, going into these hearings next week, we now know exactly what you said, the disposition of all these cases. Meadows had the strongest argument because the fairest way to put it is that he cooperated or pretended to initially and then they ran into disputes.
But he did provide a lot of evidence, some damning material about all of this.
HAYES: A lot of damning material.
MELBER: It appears to come from his text chain, people remember all those news stories. Navarro we just discussed. Scavino is the smallest fish. And then, that sort of rounds it out for those four.
But I do think this is — if you look at the precedent, now you can say the DOJ has indicted more than one person for defying these congressional subpoenas. That is a more aggressive stance than most Justice Department`s but this has been more blatant defiance than in history, but it sends a message to others. Yes, you got 50-50 odds of getting indicted.
HAYES: Yes. And you know, keep in mind when you say the sort of more blatant defiance. I mean, Steve Bannon was basically like on his podcast being, you know, go stuff it.
I mean, it wasn`t — there wasn`t — you know, with Meadows, there was a legal process, there were negotiations, there was back and forth. Sometimes he tried to find accommodation, I mean that and basically, you know, gave them the finger.
MELBER: Yes. And that`s what this sort of this — you mentioned that it has become part of this right-wing MAGA effort by some of these operatives to say they will go farther. It`s sort of a public Putin primary. And they want to show how hardcore they`re willing to be.
So, Bannon and Navarro, people say, why do they talk at all and they talk to each other in “War Room”. Navarro did several interviews as you know, they are trying to defy Congress and make themselves look bigger in the MAGA movement while doing this.
Legally the question is, if they do actually lose at trial, how big are you in a movement if you`re incarcerated?
HAYES: Well, and then the final part of this, final part of the — part of the puzzle to loop back to what you said that we`ve learned more, like, there`s this question the whole time of like, what is garland doing? What is DOJ doing? There seems to be on its face enough predicate for criminal inquiry here.
You have a judge in the Eastman trial ruling that the preponderance of the evidence indicates a crime was committed. Ergo (PH) the crime fraud exception pertains to this memo.
What is Department Justice doing? What do you make of the Navarro subpoena? The other interviews of some of the fake electors in terms of how we`re — how you`re conceptualizing what they`re doing in DOJ?
MELBER: Well, as you reported earlier tonight, you can try to look at this as something that got out of control and was not organized. But when you put together the efforts to recruit state legislators to put in fraudulent electors, to recruit Pence or as you said, his replacement to do this. All of this was driving towards trying to have America go to bed on the evening of the sixth without it being resolved.
And then, it`s only under two weeks till the — to the transition day. And from there, it`s a race to the Supreme Court and everything else. And the violent insurrection advanced those goals.
We don`t currently have the proof to completely draw that link.
HAYES: Correct.
MELBER: But the violence insurrection is consistent with what that externally planned and promoted Jan. 6 policy was.
HAYES: The point about going to bed on January 6 is a really key one. And that`s very well said. Ari Melber, great to see you.
MELBER: Thanks, Chris. Great to see you in person.
HAYES: All right. Coming up, former Homeland Security Director Jeh Johnson on the threat to former Vice President Mike Pence from former President Donald Trump, that`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:53:09]
HAYES: The role of the Secret Service, of course, is to protect the President, the Vice President and others and to carry out investigations into crimes against the financial infrastructure of the United States.
Usually, the threats they have to think about are coming from people outside of the government. But on January 5th, 2021, the Secret Service detail assigned to protect Vice President Mike Pence and found out it had perhaps the most extraordinary and unique situation, possibly in American history.
Because according to The New York Times, Marc Short, Pence`s chief of staff, informed the head of the detail that Donald Trump “was going to turn publicly against the Vice President on January 6”. There could be a security risk to Pence because of it.
So, they would have to protect the security of their charge from the threats emanating from his boss, the President of the United States.
The Secret Service takes this kind of thing incredibly seriously. The agency was originally created as a part of the Treasury Department, but it was moved into the Department of Homeland Security after September 11th.
Jeh Johnson headed up that department, serving as the Secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama. He`s been very outspoken about the threat Trumpism poses to American democracy and he joins me now. It`s great to have you on the program.
Obviously, this reporting, you know, you weren`t at the department during this time. You don`t know anything I assume more than what`s publicly reported.
But I mean, as someone who interfaced with the Secret Service a lot, knows Secret Service and Secret Service details, just like your reaction to just imagining that conversation in that West Wing office between Marc Short and the security detail.
JEH JOHNSON, FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY UNDER PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Chris, as Secretary of Homeland Security, I was the oversight for the U.S. Secret Service. I was also a Secret Service protectee for three years.
The Secret Service, the protection detail for protectee is monitoring threat streams directed at the protectee constantly. I don`t want to get into too much detail about that.
[20:55:06]
JOHNSON: So, that is not unusual, what is most unusual as you pointed out in your lead in, is the Chief of Staff of the protectee having to report to the protect these details, a threat stream instigated by the protectee`s own running mate. That was the absurdity of the times we were living in a year and a half ago.
And I`ll be interested to read what`s in the forthcoming book. I read The New York Times report. And you know, like everyone else, I find it extraordinary and absurd.
HAYES: Now, sometimes I go back and forth about you know this, about how bad is it thermometer. I asked myself, I try to kind of not get too lost in the — in the present and not lose perspective about what the threats to American democracy are.
One thing that I`ve noticed is that the interactions I`ve had with people that served in the Obama administration, who are pretty clear eyed and have a perspective I think sometimes and a little bit of like distanced from like you guys in the news cycle get yourself wound up sometimes, all seem as concerned as I`ve ever found them.
I mean, that`s true. I think of Eric Holder. I think it`s true, the ex- president from the words that I`ve heard from Barack Obama. Where are you at as someone who served in this government who thinks about American democracy about where things stand right now?
JOHNSON: Chris, for a long time, we like to say we live in the most durable democracy on Earth. We used to boast about how every four years, every eight years we have peaceful transfers of power. That is no longer true.
We as a democracy can no longer say that we always have peaceful transfers of power in January after an election year. We found out a year and a half ago that our democracy really is quite fragile.
You know, as the saying goes, it`s a democracy if you can keep it. And the reason I believe our democracy has been so durable for so long through Barack Obama, the 44th President of the United States is because there were people in power who were trustworthy, who were responsible, who believed in the Constitution.
And even where there were some gray did the responsible thing. That nearly broke when we elected to the office of the presidency, someone, frankly, who had no respect for constitutional norms, had no understanding of the Constitution, no understanding of history, no understanding of the rule of law. And our system nearly broke as a result, and I`m not sure we could have survived another four years.
HAYES: We of course are speaking in the aftermath of the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas before that, the one in Buffalo and then subsequent in Uvalde 20 mass shootings, including one in Tulsa that killed four people and also the gunman as well.
You wrote a very provocative piece in The Washington Post saying it`s time to show the real horror of mass shootings in pictures. Why must innocent schoolchildren, you write, for the rest of their lives carry the vivid memories of the executions of their teachers and classmates while federal and state lawmakers in the adult constituents who elect them are spared?
What do you — what do want to see here or not want to see? What do you — what do you think the power of the images of those children and what that gun and gunman did to them would do?
JOHNSON: I really hesitated writing that. It`s been on my mind since Sandy Hook 10 years ago. I know that I lacked the moral standing to urge upon a parent that you should have an open casket funeral or display the photographs of your dead child.
But we need a game changer here, Chris. And you and I both know that images are powerful, images can alter the course of history. Remember the images from Vietnam. Remember the images from the Edmund Pettus Bridge. Remember the images from Birmingham were fire hoses and dogs were turned on demonstrators.
An image can galvanize public opinion and alter the course of history. We are hiding ourselves. We are averting our gaze from the tragedy of shootings like this, the brutal murder of children with assault weapons.
And what I said in the piece I truly believe, why should a child who was an eyewitness, a vivid eyewitness to this tragedy, who will live with this for the rest of his or her life in grief counseling, be the one to bear witness from all of this, but all the rest of us, including our lawmakers are spared?
And so, that`s how I see it. I believe we need a game changer of some sort. I don`t advocate for the display of any particular image. But I do think the public and the lawmakers that represent them in Congress need to be a lot closer to this tragedy.
[21:00:06]
HAYES: Jeh Johnson, thank you so much for making some time tonight. Really appreciate it.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
HAYES: That does it for ALL IN for this week. “MSNBC PRIME” starts right now with Mehdi Hasan. Good evening, Mehdi.