Updated
Summary
Trump White House strategist convicted for defying the January 6th Committee subpoena and could face one month up to two years in prison. Campaign veteran Chai Komanduri joins Ari Melber to talk about a new video that reveals Senator Josh Hawley running from the mob he cheered. Chief Medical Advisor to the President of the United States Dr. Anthony Fauci joins Ari Melber to talk about President Joe Biden`s status after getting COVID.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: Thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. We are grateful. “THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER” starts right now.
Hi, Ari. Happy Friday.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Happy Friday, Nicolle. Thank you. Welcome to THE BEAT.
We are reporting this breaking news in the trial of Steve Bannon.
Trump White House veteran Steve Bannon found guilty today on both counts. This is the first Trump aide convicted in connection to the January 6th probe. It is big legal news. It is the first conviction of anyone for defying the House January 6th Committee as well. And we have experts about to join us who were inside the courtroom.
This is a major deal. Prosecutors basically made and won their case that Bannon hid insurrection evidence by refusing to show up or testify or provide any documents requested under that lawful subpoena. Mr. Bannon now faces up to two years in prison in a precedent-making a victory for the Justice Department and the House probe.
We have a lot to get to tonight, a lot of angles, but this is one of those stories where we go right in with the breaking news to the people who know it best. Former federal prosecutor John Flannery has dealt with exactly these kinds of criminal cases and been counsel to three congressional committees which is of course how these particular charges began. “Politico” legal reporter Josh Gerstein known for many scoops, has been covering this story. He is outside the courthouse.
We begin with you, Josh. Tell us how this news came down and what it means.
JOSH GERSTEIN, POLITICO LEGAL AFFAIRS REPORTER: Well, Ari, good to see you. The deliberations were very short in this case. The trial, too, was pretty short in terms of actual evidence to the jury, just to witnesses. One person from the House January 6th Select Committee that`s running the hearings that have been underway for the last few weeks, and very briefly one FBI agent.
The jury deliberated less than three hours, really around 2 1/2 hours including lunch, and came back with these two guilty verdicts. One for refusing to show up and testify and one for refusing to bring the committee the documents that it had requested. So, you know, the defense here just didn`t go over very well with the jury, such as it was. Didn`t seem like it took them very long to dispose of it.
MELBER: Yes, you say it didn`t take them long. This would seem to affirm, Josh, what DOJ`s entire strategy was. They argued this was a simple case and thus they didn`t need much time nor many witnesses, just two. The Bannon folks sort of made a pitch or a kind of gamble legally to say they would counter by saying, well, you just didn`t carry your burden, we don`t have to say anything and I hope that there`s one or two jurors who thought this was — according to Bannon`s lawyers — a kind of political vendetta, a kind of Democratic infiltration of DOJ.
Based on what you saw inside the courtroom today, what did you glean about how this fared, how the jury looked, just the sheer speed of this decision?
GERSTEIN: Well, you know, you`re right, Ari. Towards the very end of the case right before it went to the jury the defense did try to suggest that this was some kind of Democratic hit job, that there was perhaps some conspiracy between the key witness here and one of the prosecutors, and at times frankly some of the arguments seemed more like the caricature of arguments that a trial lawyer would make, for example, Steve Bannon`s lawyer Evan Corcoran suggested that maybe Bennie Thompson didn`t actually sign the subpoena for Bannon and it might`ve been forged because his signature didn`t look like his signature on some other letters.
So those were the kinds of straws frankly that it seemed the defense was grasping at towards the end here after their major arguments, we should say, were basically excluded by the judge before the trial even got underway.
MELBER: Right. And you we remind viewers, it`s always a bad sign if you want to hang your defense or your case on things that aren`t even allowed in, that can of course be debated, it can be litigated, criminal appeals happen, although they`re difficult. John Flannery can remind us what a high standard that is. But that was the same tone we got from Mr. Bannon outside court today. He`s now convicted. He now faces a mandatory minimum unless this is overturned as mentioned on appeal, and yet he was defiantly trying to continue his fights with the committee. Take a listen, John.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST TO DONALD TRUMP: I want to thank the jury for whatever they did, the judge, particularly the court administration here, everybody. I only have one disappointment and that is the gutless members of that show trial committee, the J6 Committee, didn`t have the guts to come down here and testify in open court. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: As mentioned, John, you`ve advised these very committees.
[18:05:02]
Your response to how often that would happen when committee members testify at a normal trial and your response to the meaning of this big guilty verdict for the man who ran Donald Trump`s 2016 campaign, Steve Bannon.
JOHN FLANNERY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it`s very interesting for a guy to say they wouldn`t come here and talk went in his own case, in his own defense he would not talk, although promising a medieval attack on the charges against him, and then before the trial his lawyer admitted we don`t have a defense and the jury agreed. And then we have the lawyer come out and he says, well, I have a bulletproof issues on appeal.
It`s really more like Swiss cheese because every issue that he mentioned to speak to the public that I guess he hoped hasn`t followed these issues about privilege and so forth, have been handled and have been rejected including by the court, including by the people who appeared before the court, about a man who was not working for the president to enjoy any privilege, and privileges take flight in the face of crime and of course this privilege rests with the incumbent president which is Biden, not Trump.
MELBER: Yes. That makes sense. And then, John, the reason Mr. Bannon was initially called as a witness, and I`ll have more on this later in the program, but I wanted to get your — both of your reactions first is because of what he did and knew around the 6th. The committee did not say whether that would be criminal. He has the right to invoke the Fifth as other witnesses have done but boy, was he involved. Take a listen to how he sounded beforehand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: To John and then Josh, what does it mean in this open probe that the first person to defy it and to go to trial for it has been convicted. It would seem they want to get the information on why he was talking that way, John, but it also would seem to send a message to anyone else who wants to play around with DOJ.
FLANNERY: We crossed the Rubicon into an area where finally we`re actually demanding and accounting for the misconduct of those associated with Trump, including in this case one of the key advisers to the president, Bannon, and his friend rogue Rudy Giuliani. And it`s very interesting there are magic moments in every trial and I think there have been in these hearings. And one was when Liz Cheney yesterday was speaking about what Bannon said on October 31st, 2020, and he outlined exactly what was going to happen.
MELBER: Right.
FLANNERY: And that was really telling and that was kind of riveting. And then she said, so is this the kind of person that you think should have anything to do with government going forward? This is powerful stuff. And I think they took the argument, I think it`s undeniable, and I can imagine any Republican looking in the mirror and thinking that this is a good way to go.
Now I will see if there is some conversions but there is also talk about we should allow him to cooperate, that is Bannon. Forget it. His next stop should be felony investigation, the hypothetical of what he did in this conspiracy, and my past as a prosecutor, I have had people offer to cooperate and I refused to let them cooperate and I refused to cut a deal with them because I thought they should be punished for what they did.
MELBER: Right.
FLANNERY: And not get any credit for it, and he is so far up the pinnacle this guy shouldn`t get consideration except to be considered for serious conspiracy charges.
MELBER: Right. And also, you`re drawing on your experience which is why we talk to you. In fairness to the process we`ve had committee members on this program who said they still welcome his testimony and his documents. The fact that he never furnished the documents certainly hurts him in their eyes because he didn`t start that process.
Josh, same question to you regarding what this man knows. He was of course featured in those hearings, the primetime hearings last night because he seemed to have a foreknowledge, advanced premeditated knowledge about aspects of this. And again, I want to be clear. He`s convicted today on what was a very basic defiance of a subpoena. Most Americans can`t get away with that.
No one is prejudging whether what he did around the election rises to a criminal level. That wasn`t adjudicated. But what do you think, Josh, about why he seemed so intent on not cooperating when he is tied to so many things and where does this go next? Final question to you, Josh.
GERSTEIN: Right. Well, one open question, Ari, is how closely Bannon was communicating with President Trump during the days leading up to the January 6th attack. Frankly the whole effort to try to sow discord and sow chaos at the Congress seems like a very Bannon-esque kind of undertakings. So it will be interesting to see if he cooperates. I tend to suspect that he will remain defiant and it is worth keeping in mind while the Justice Department had this success today, they`ve actually passed up bringing cases against other major Trump world figures such as Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino, so the message is still a bit muddled I think to those that may be holding out against the committee.
[18:10:08]
MELBER: Interesting point you say and to remind everyone, as you said, there were four people brought up in this manner. Two of them indicted. Now one convicted, Bannon, today, if we`re keeping score. And two, where the Justice Department formally announced the staffers you mentioned, that they`re not pursuing. So interesting to hear from your view following all of this. There is a model there for some potential witnesses.
I know you`ve covered it, I know you`ve been busy. Like the jury, Mr. Gerstein, you do get to go home, I would assume now, Friday night. Thank you for your work and joining us. Mr. Flannery, thank you as always.
GERSTEIN: Thank you, Ari.
FLANNERY: Sure.
MELBER: We turn — absolutely. Thanks to both of you.
We turn next to how Mr. Bannon`s tough talk ran into a brick wall. Our shortest break is 60 seconds and we have a federal prosecutor when we`re back in one minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This didn`t seem like the misdemeanor from hell, Mr. Bannon. What happened?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought it was pretty good one.
BANNON: This is round one. That`s what happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Misdemeanor from hell is what Mr. Bannon had famously promised in his offense-defense here. Pretty good hell is what he just riffed on but this went out with a whimper. Legally, publicly, in every way.
Mr. Bannon decided to do something different than virtually all other officials, him and Mr. Navarro, were the ones who just said they were completely defying the committee and Mr. Bannon has folded. We reported even before today`s guilty verdict that he basically presented no defense. The five-day trial is quick, it ends tonight with this guilty verdict on two counts. Bannon never said anything in court other than affirming he would not testify. The jury deliberated for less than three hours.
You can see in a new sketch of Bannon in court he was looking down on his phone . The person who drew the sketch would suggest that he was sort of smiling at whatever he was looking at but certainly wasn`t smiling by the end of the day. The sentencing is likely to come in October. There`s a mandatory minimum as mentioned so he would get at least 30 days no matter what but up to two years depending on how the judge looks at sentencing factors. Now Bannon and his lawyer did react further today. They say they have all eyes on the appeal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: We may have lost the battle here today but we`re not going to lose this war. OK. David Schoen is going to talk to you about our appeals process.
DAVID SCHOEN, BANNON`S LAWYER: This is round one, that`s what happened.
BANNON: Yes. State game.
SCHOEN: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a bulletproof appeal. The overreaching by the government in this case has been extraordinary on every level. There are issues for appeal in this case, they`re astounding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That`s their view and every person convicted in American courts does have rights to appeal, but the feds don`t think there is much here. Here`s what one prosecutor is saying. Quote, “It`s not difficult. There were two witnesses because this is as simple as it seems.” They also in court compared Bannon to a child continuing to argue with their parents after they`re told they`re grounded. It doesn`t change the fact that the decision has been made.
This is the case that, one, in front of that judge and with this jury, so this is the type of case, the type of argument, the type of basically confident framing, that you can expect the government, that the Justice Department to continue when they face this on appeal. Here is Bannon when the indictments first came down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: I`m telling you right now, this is going to be the misdemeanor from hell for Merrick Garland, Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. We`re going to go on the offense. We`re tired of playing defense. We`re going to go on the offense on this, and stand by.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: We`re joined now by former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance. Welcome back.
JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Good to see you, Ari.
MELBER: You know, Joyce, we throw around so many legal terms I`ll just remind folks that when you`re the U.S. attorney you`re in charge of the entire office that oversees cases like this.
[18:15:09]
So for viewers you would be managing many of these, and I`m just curious how you would react if your line prosecutors won a case like this this quickly, and what you would think of the 00 he has the right to appeal but what do you think of the likelihood of success on appeal?
VANCE: So possibly the more relevant experience I had in my career, Ari, was the six years I spent as the appellate chief in my office, where I oversaw all of our criminal and civil appeals and argued an awful lot of criminal appeals, and I would say that Bannon and his lawyer David Schoen`s assessment of this case is being, you know, some sort of miracle bulletproof case on appeal is dead wrong.
This case absolutely will not be reversed on appeal. They`ve done everything that they could to do what defense lawyers call injecting air. They`ve tried to create a lot of arguments, oh, the judge didn`t let us make certain legal defenses or introduce certain evidence, but ultimately that won`t help them on appeal in this case.
MELBER: So what would Mr. Bannon, who is twice convicted but only once — I should say twice indicted but only once convicted because he was pardoned previously. What kind of sentencing factors will the judge consider? What do you envision here?
VANCE: So this is an unusual misdemeanor charge. It has a 30-day mandatory minimum. The sentence for a misdemeanor can`t by law exceed one year, and although there are two counts here and theoretically it`s possible that the judge could sentence in a consecutive fashion, that means he would serve the sentence on one count and then the sentence on the second count so that could be 60 days or up to two years, it`s likely that he would serve that time concurrently.
His guideline range will be something in the neighborhood of zero to six months, but we know he`s got that 30-day mandatory minimum. The government is almost certainly going to argue that the judge should go higher than that mandatory minimum to send a strong message that Steve Bannon is not above the law, and like other mere mortals has to comply with subpoenas from Congress.
MELBER: Right. Now I feel like I`m either one of your junior lawyers or one of your students if you were a guest lecturer. So if I`m understanding you right it sounds like you`re saying something in the neighborhood, and again judges have discretion for a reason, but something in the neighborhood of, say, one to nine months-ish?
VANCE: It will be at least 30 days. It can be as much as two years. I think something in the neighborhood of 30 days to nine months or perhaps even a year is a reasonable estimate but like you say, Ari, the judge will have discretion about how to impose sentence and whether both of those counts get served at the same time or separately.
MELBER: Understood. And a month plus in any of those federal units is no picnic, especially for an individual who has never lived anything like that. Mr. Bannon who`s been a guest on this program and who`s made a lot of money in his life and had a successful life, he is a multimillionaire, it would be a very different experience in a federal incarceration unit. Take a listen to him — go ahead.
VANCE: It would be, Ari, and there is one other point we should make about the statute which is that typically you would expect someone like Steve Bannon to go into federal custody but this statute specifies that he`ll be held in jail which implies to me if the court has actually honored this rather unusual provision that he`ll be spending time in the D.C. lockup rather than processing into the Bureau of Prisons.
MELBER: Interesting. You say, again, because a misdemeanor so it doesn`t have that long a time, it doesn`t go into BOP, it would be basically, what, the D.C. city jail?
VANCE: You know, actually by statute here and it uses this phrase that I have not seen in a statue before but it talks about jails. That`s where people typically are held before they`re convicted. Prison is where you go after a conviction.
MELBER: Right.
VANCE: So we`ll have to see what the judge does here at sentencing.
MELBER: Really interesting because we always learn a lot from you including the details which matter. Here was Mr. Bannon earlier also again going at the committee. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: Why is Bennie Thompson not here defending his committee, the show trial? Does he really have COVID? Has anybody checked? This is an absurdity. It`s completely and totally absurd. Why is Bennie Thompson — they can`t find any human beings, there is no human beings that will admit to anything about setting any date.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: A final question, Joyce, he is a citizen and he happens to be a defendant and now he is convicted, but he has every right to publicly say what he wants, attack anyone. Do you see, though, for those who are following the fact and not the bluster, do you see any of this intersecting with his appeals strategy or is this just a side bluster or what some call a side hustle because sooner or later he still wants to use this politically even if he has to serve time?
[18:20:16]
VANCE: The guy who`s blowing the whistle in the background is making more sense than the words that are coming out of Steve Bannon`s mouth here. Nothing here that helps him on appeal but I think you`re right, Ari.
MELBER: OK.
VANCE: This is about Steve Bannon portraying himself as a martyr and probably making a buck down the road on the book that he`ll write.
MELBER: Understood, and we did want to get the views there and you`ve walked us through it with great acumen.
Joyce, I wish you a great weekend as well.
VANCE: Thanks, Ari. You too.
MELBER: Thank you. We are going to fit in a break but I want to tell you we have been working on something important. Josh Hawley exposed. I have our breakdown on the facts, the evidence, and what you need to know when you`re on the run from the people you fomented into an insurrectionist mob. It`s my take, I want to share it with you. It`s coming up in tonight`s show.
But first, our final word on what the Bannon conviction means not for him but for this committee that just announced new hearings with new pressure on people to cooperate, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:25:55]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this. All hell is going to break loose tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was insurrection eve. We turn now to our special report on the biggest legal and political news in the nation tonight. The man who ran Trump`s 2016 campaign convicted for hiding evidence after promoting the January 6th effort to overthrow the 2020 loss.
Steve Bannon was more involved and more public about that offer than really most people. In late 2020 he was also seeking a pardon for a different indictment from Trump which I just discussed with Joyce. So he at that time turned his media program into a veritable clearinghouse for the January 6th effort. He had guests that seemed obscure at the time like coup lawyer John Eastman who of course is now in the soup.
And Bannon seemed to both echo and shape what was Trump`s increasing obsession with getting Pence to somehow do something to overthrow the loss. And that`s why the House probe had Bannon on its witness list upfront and then when he defied them that`s why he was the first Trump aide ever held in contempt of Congress for the January 6th probe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): The plain fact here is that Mr. Bannon has no legal right to ignore the committees lawful subpoena. There is no conceivably applicable privilege that could shield Mr. Bannon from testimony.
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Mr. Bannon will comply with our investigation or he will face the consequences.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The consequences arrived today with a conviction that could bring up to two years in prison and had a mandatory has time there, which shows whatever you think of Bannon, the guilty verdict also overlaps with these probes and hearings as the first conviction of a Trump White House veteran in the probe, and that has wider implications for someone else, Bannon`s ally in this plot and his podcast colleague Peter Navarro who was awaiting a trial by the same DOJ prosecutors on virtually the same set of facts.
If this was a kind of test run then Navarro`s lawyers would take it as a confirmation that their defendant has a very uphill battle, and really both these individuals might need to adjust their legal outlook after they brashly taunted the committee and the whole process, saying this is all a dog that did not bark.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: There`s been no outreach from 6th January Commission.
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Yes.
BANNON: And here`s the reason. Because Peter Navarro, the first thing you`ll send over it, hey, put this in the official record, which would be the Navarro report.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: The dog that didn`t bark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The dog that didn`t bark. Bannon now faces this mandatory time behind bars. Now he can assess that as whatever analogy he wants to use but this all matters and it`s not about picking fights or political fundraising or podcast promotion. Trump aides may be a habit in almost Pavlovian response where they turn everything, even bad news about their personal security, into, well, a kind of PR mythmaking because that`s what Trump does.
But this is so much more. The committee won this legal victory today and they have reiterated they welcome cooperation from Bannon and Navarro just as their Vice Chair Cheney was putting pressure on someone else who`d been holding back, Trump lawyer Cipollone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: We think the American people deserve to hear from Mr. Cipollone personally. He should appear before this committee and we are working to secure his testimony.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was when she was still pushing it voluntarily but he still declined, so he got a subpoena. Now let me tell you what a subpoena means because Mr. Cipollone already knew and Mr. Bannon and Mr. Navarro are learning. It means you must show up and cooperate or provide legal objection of why you won`t which can include pleading the Fifth which is not that hard and doesn`t take that much time, but if you don`t do either of those things you can be indicted, convicted, and end up behind bars.
[18:30:00]
That will weigh much heavier on the minds of anyone facing this committee that just announced more investigations and new fall hearings if they didn`t already know how it works.
Now coming up, we turned to a story that any other day would have been, frankly higher in our broadcast. This video damning that reveals Josh Hawley running from the very mob he cheered. I have our take on. It`s something we`ve been working on and I want to share with you and words from Mr. Hawley when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:06]
MELBER: Turning now to Senator Josh Hawley, a freshman Republican who assumed office in 2019. Exposed in the primetime insurrection hearings for cheering Trump fans, who would storm the Capitol on January 6, and then running from them. Hawley did more than any member of the Senate to tangibly advanced the plot to overthrow the results on the Senate floor.
Now, remember, in all presidential races, voting ends in November, and then states formalized the results in December. The electoral college makes it official, as you see in this December headline. So, it was all over in December, under the Constitution, the law, and what the states said in the electoral college.
That is why even Mitch McConnell who has pushed constitutional limits on obstruction tactics and stealing a Senate seat. Even that, Mitch McConnell was in December whipping Senate Republicans into line to just follow the legal results rather than use January 6 for a brawl or some sort of last- ditch futile coup attempt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mitch McConnell had urged Republicans not to join House Republicans in certification challenges.
SEN. PAT TOOMEY (R-PA): Among the most fundamental aspects of our republic, and a democratic system is to accept the outcome of elections.
(End VT)
MELBER: Republican senators were following McConnell including many loyal Trump allies. Until — you remember this? You might have been getting ready for New Year`s Eve, you might have been thinking about other things until December 30th. When Hawley, this low-ranking freshman broke ranks, getting headlines like this. There was a crack to purportedly challenged Biden`s victory in Congress.
And that upended the process because now the Senate would, in a formal sense, try to take up this so-called challenge. Turning what had been a dead end or well in Trump last ditch fantasy into something tangible. Those marchers could rally around as Hawley would then salute them that morning. Wanted to make sure everyone knew he started this. He did this. He led this.
He took the wheel from McConnell. And well now, this week, this very serious largely nonpartisan probe has newly revealed evidence that shows exactly how Senator Hawley responded to those people he cheered. And to the results, he claimed to want. Take a look. He ran. He scurried. He ran, fearing for his physical safety and his life. Fearing those very scary people that he claimed to support and cheer would hurt him.
He was apparently aware that those people might beat him or murder and assassinate him if they even got near him. Video shows that Hawley got farther from that main breach to those underground stairways, where he continued to do what senators never do in their own halls of power. Scurrying with fear down the stairwell to get away from the people he cheered.
Let me tell you something. Let me put it plainly as we tried to do around here. Rarely, do you ever see a public figure`s hypocrisy and cowardice, crystallized into the peak of the historic crisis that he helped create, all in one day? That`s what the nation is now seeing, how Hawley started and ended his day on January 6.
The lead senator pushing the plot on the Senate floor, then found himself running away from the very forces he helped unleash. So, you`re running and running and running away. But you can`t run away from yourself. As Bob Marley famously put it, and when you are running like that, you must have done something wrong.
That is why so many people, regardless of party or ideology, can feel the gut reaction to that cowardly, pathetic, defenestrating sprint, by this man, this freshman, this politician, and it is deeper than just a moment because we get so many things boiled down to these little moments. It`s not just a moment. Think about it.
The Republican Party of Trump and Pence and Hawley is quite literally running away from its own worst creations from itself. That`s just the facts. It is a truth. And there is room for a reckoning. We bring on campaign veteran Chai Komanduri who is here with us on the history, the facts, and what comes next for accountability when we come back.
[18:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): When I walked by that particular group of folks were standing there peacefully behind police barricades, well off of the plaza, and I waved to them, gave them the thumbs up, pop my fist to him.
The overwhelming majority of them are peaceful and there`s no doubt about that.
You call them insurrectionists. I mean, folks who I walked by when I was on my way to the House chamber were standing there peacefully.
[18:45:00]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Josh Hawley lying about who was at the insurrection. We`re joined by Obama campaign Chai Komanduri. He didn`t look like he thought they were peaceful when he was running away.
CHAI KOMANDURI, POLITICAL STRATEGIST: No. And, you know, I think we`ve talked before on THE BEAT about political courage, you know, which we defined as basically willing to put — basically put your election on the line for principles which we`re seeing this Cheney do right now. What we saw with Josh Hawley was a textbook definition of political cowardice. He literally looked like a conman, running away from the dopes he had just fooled.
And one thing that it sort of brought to my mind was the movie Get Out. So, one of the real concepts in Get Out is the perils of white allyship. The idea that white people because of their superior social status, and on average superior wealth, you know, are not really trustworthy allies of African Americans all the time.
That — what for African Americans seems like a fight for survival for white people can be a hobby or a fad. Well, this is a case where we saw the perils of white allyship, except the victims, were white people themselves. You know, for the MAGA mob that was there. These were white working-class people who were expressing a rage that they felt in a world that betrayed them. For Josh Hawley, this was a professional opportunity.
I mean, he was simply using them for career opportunism. And that`s something that we see throughout the MAGA movement. All the MAGA leaders are sort of like that. Donald Trump is somebody who comes from privilege. He was actually dismayed at the fact that the rioters looked cheap and poor to him, and that they had made him look like he was a low-class figure.
You know, Howard Stern said Donald Trump would rather please Maggie Haberman at the New York Times than the MAGA mob. You know, the same thing is true with Tucker Carlson. You know, he`s somebody who James Carville has described, more comfortable with liberal media leads like Al Hunt and Judy Woodruff than the people who actually watch the show.
So, we have seen this repeatedly with the MAGA movement. This movement is run by elite leaders who are really just con artists and look at the white working class as marks for — to make more money off of them. They have a profitable swindle.
MELBER: You make a very incisive boy, particularly with the lying in the elitism there, which of course they lie about. So, they don`t want to admit to the elitism. Although they seem obsessed with it, which might be because they`re familiar with it because it comes from within. When you look at what they`ve created. This is dangerous to everyone. But it`s also dangerous to them, which is why it can seem so supremely craven.
There have been attempts to valorize Mike Pence, which are extremely counterfactual and odd. He spent his last days up to the 6th holding meetings trying to find out if he could find a way to help the coup. That wouldn`t make him a criminal. Donald Trump didn`t want to directly do stuff. Mike Pence has been a lot of time around him and got the memo, which is why there were memos.
And that`s not courageous leadership. It was a final double-checking of whether he could find a way to do it, all the lawyers said no. Plenty of people in government and business know that you check with lawyers and he didn`t do it. So, what does it tell you that people like Mr. Hawley and Mr. Pence, who may have had different points or different lines they found, but Mr. Pence went along with all of this, the misogyny, the racism, the violent rhetoric, all of it up to the night of — the eve of the insurrection, the 5th?
Was he in your view, a hero? Or was he on a spectrum closer to Mr. Hawley – – we wish safety for everyone we are against murder and assassination but at a very direct level did he — do you think also foment and contribute to MAGA which then tried to kill him or do you think he`s a hero?
KOMANDURI: Well, I don`t think Mike Pence is a hero. I would not put him as far as Josh Hawley. I think that the description of makers or breakers and gamers, I think it really applies to Mike Pence. Mike Pence wanted to use a MAGA mob to game the system. And by the way, he largely succeeded. You saw his response to the Dobbs decision, he was delighted. He wants abortion to be legal in all 50 states now.
You know, that was why he basically believed he could game the system. And he went right up to January 5th — a 5th — January 6th, gaming the system to try to get what he wants, which was, you know, abortion overturned. I think he also would like to see gay marriage overturned, etc., etc. That was his goal. I think Josh Harley`s much — Josh Hawley`s much more of a narcissist.
I think that he is at his heart a con man. And I think one of the big things with con men is they don`t believe they will ever get caught and I think that they also are fascinated by seeing how far — how much they can get away with. And I think that`s very true of Josh Hawley. I think that`s true of Tucker Carlson. And I think that`s true of Donald Trump.
[18:50:00]
MELBER: Very interesting on all of it, and you`ve been around some of it, and some people quote, lyrics. You said, makers and breakers. So, I think you`re quoting historian Tim Snyder. Refuting quote, any wisdom here. Chai, thank you. Have a good weekend. I got to keep it moving because Dr. Anthony Fauci joins us live on THE BEAT with so much happening when we return.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I really appreciate your inquiries and concerns. But I`m doing well. We`re getting a lot of work done. We`re going to continue to get it done. And the — in the meantime, thanks for your concern and keep the faith. It`s going to be OK.
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MELBER: The president discussing his COVID diagnosis, and now we`re joined by his advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci. Thanks for being here.
[18:55:00]
ANTHONY FAUCI, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER: Good to be with you. Thank you for having me.
MELBER: How`s President Biden doing?
FAUCI: He`s doing fine. I mean, you saw him there on the clip. I had a discussion today with his primary physician, Dr. Kevin O`Connor. And as he reported publicly in the letter, that the President is actually even better today than he was yesterday. So, you know, you never can guarantee anything, but he has all the signs of looking like he`s going in the right direction, you know, he`s a generally healthy person.
He`s vaccinated, doubly boosted. And he`s on an antiviral drug, that has been clearly shown to have a major positive impact in preventing one from progressing to severe disease. And as you`ve heard from his physician, and even from the president himself, he`s carrying on his duties virtually today, and actually doing quite well. He`s even better and more improved today than it was yesterday.
MELBER: Yes, you mentioned him working, and they shared that video, they also shared a photo of him at work. Virtual, as you say, for safety. You have now since this pandemic began serve two presidents who have all of the best prevention care and people around them. Both ultimately got COVID. Is this a teachable moment in some way? How do you as a public health communicator deal with the fact that fairly or not people say, gosh, I guess everyone`s going to get COVID eventually?
FAUCI: Well, not necessarily, everyone is going to get COVID. But everyone likely is either going to be vaccinated, boosted, and protected, or even vaccinated and have a breakthrough infection. Or if you`re not vaccinated, you have a risk not only of getting infected but also of having a severe outcome. So, what we`re talking about is that this virus is extremely efficient in transmitting from person to person.
And that`s the reason why we`ve got to utilize all of the interventions that we have, that we know are effective, and we have many now. We`re so much better off now than we were in January 2021. Now, we have vaccines readily available, we have boosters readily available. We know that masks do prevent both acquisition and transmission.
And we know that we have antivirals that work and we have plenty of tests so that people could know if they`re infected, and help them to make the decision to protect themselves as well as others. For example, people in your household that might actually turn out to be vulnerable, that you don`t want to inadvertently affect. So, we will have to live with some level of this virus.
What I had been saying all along, is we don`t want to live with a level of the virus that is so high, that it actually continues to disrupt the social order, be at the economic, be at school, be at other things and we can do that. We can do that by getting more and more people vaccinated and boosted by wearing masks where appropriate.
And the CDC has pretty clear guidelines about that. And by utilizing testing, as well as antivirals, if you do get infected, we can live with the virus, but it`s got to be at a lower level than it is now. 300 deaths per day is not an acceptable level for us.
MELBER: Yes, as you remind people, there`s a way to live life, but there`s still a high costs for the unvaccinated. I only have about a minute left. But given all the hang-ups over mandates and what you described as moving back to semi-normal, do you think it`s time to rethink some of those mandates that people should be able to go to work or do things with a little less requirement on them?
FAUCI: Well, people are going to be mandated or not at the local level. What the federal government does, what the CDC does is provide an analysis of the epidemiology and the spread in a particular county, city, or state, then make a recommendation depending upon a number of factors, the dynamics of the virus, the spread, the hospitalization, the hospital capacity.
It`s the local authorities, each individual one is probably different from the other that will make that decision at the local level, whether to mandate because they may have a difficulty, for example, of healthcare providing that might override or overcome the healthcare system. So that`s something that is a local decision.
MELBER: Understood, and it goes to everyone figuring this out as we go. I want to thank you for giving us both the update and your thoughts on the wider situation, the presidential update as well. Have a good weekend, Dr. Fauci.
FAUCI: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
MELBER: Thank you. Quite a week everyone. You can always catch up with me online @AriMelber on social media, whichever one you use. And the @AriMelber, we have an update on our event in New York. Tomorrow for those who want to join me and the best way to connect to me as always, go to AriMelber.com, and we can connect directly. I wish everyone a great weekend. “THE REIDOUT” with Joy Reid starts now.