Updated
Summary
New reporting reveals the DOJ is investigating Trump`s actions as part of its Jan. 6 criminal probe. It came hours after Attorney General Merrick Garland discussed the DOJ`s work with NBC News. The House Oversight committee is set to hold a hearing on America`s gun violence epidemic on Wednesday.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: We went into overtime. THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts right now.
[23:00:38]
STEPHANIE RUHLE: Tonight breaking news, the new report that the Justice Department is indeed investigating the actions of the former president over his fake electoral scheme. An investigation said to include phone records of his closest allies, and the new e-mail evidence showing insiders knew exactly what they were doing.
Then as Republicans split over the former guy and his former VP, could Democrats be in for some big wins despite a complicated economy, as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Tuesday night.
Here we go. Good evening. Once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. We begin this evening with bombshell breaking news from the Washington Post. The Post reporting the Justice Department is investigating former President Trump`s actions in its criminal probe of efforts to overturn the 2020 election.
The paper reports quote, prosecutors who are questioning witnesses before grand jury, including two top aides to Vice President Mike Pence have asked in recent days about conversations with Trump, his lawyers and others in his inner circle, who sought to substitute Trump allies for certified electors from some states to Joe Biden one.
In addition, Justice Department investigators back in April received phone records of key officials and aides in the Trump administration, including his former Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows.
Earlier tonight, our friend Carol Leonnig broke down some of her reporting and described what federal prosecutors wanted to know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROL LEONNIG, THE WASHINGTON POST NATIONAL INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: What we learned is that they are asking most of their questions at least so far about Donald Trump. The questions overwhelmingly are what did Donald Trump tell his lawyers? What did Donald Trump say to you? What did Donald Trump say to Mike Pence?
And those are questions asked in the very serious and formal environment of a grand jury, a grand jury that`s preparing as part of a criminal investigation for the possibility of charging people with crimes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
What is not news that Attorney General Merrick Garland has come under a whole lot of growing pressure to act as the January 6 committee reveals more details about the efforts to keep Trump in power. And just hours before this latest news broke, Garland sat down with our own Lester Holt, and he discussed the department`s work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We have been moving urgently since the very beginning. We have a huge number of prosecutors and agents working on these cases.
LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS HOST: You said in no uncertain terms the other day that no one is above the law. That said, the indictment of a former president of perhaps candidate for president would arguably tear the country apart. Is that your concern? As you make your decision down the road here? Do you have to think about things like that?
GARLAND: Look, we pursue justice without fear or favor. We intend to hold everyone, anyone who was criminally responsible for the events surrounding January 6, for any attempt to interfere with the lawful transfer of power from one administration to another accountable. That`s what we do. We don`t pay any attention to other issues with respect to that.
HOLT: So if Donald Trump were to become a candidate for President, again, that would not change your schedule or how you move forward or don`t move forward.
GARLAND: Say again, that we will hold accountable anyone who was criminally responsible for attempting to interfere with the transfer legitimate lawful transfer of power from one administration to the next. I mean it from the bottom of my heart, the only pressure that I prosecutors are the agents feel is the pressure to do the right thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Anyone means anyone. Also today, The New York Times reporting that previously unseen emails so Trump campaign officials knew, knew that the slate of fake Trump electors that they were setting up well, just that fake. Lawyers working on the plan made it clear, they knew the fake electors might not hold up to legal scrutiny. And this was all all in writing.
[23:00:05]
With that, let`s get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel tonight, Phil Rucker, Pulitzer Prize winning deputy national editor of the Washington Post, former U.S. Attorney Joyce Vance, who spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. She`s also a law professor at the University of Alabama. Ryan Reilly joins us, justice reporter for NBC News, and we`ve got so much news tonight. We`ve got a fourth panelist, our friend Matt Miller is back, former chief spokesperson for the Department of Justice.
Phil, I`ve got to start with you. Your paper is reporting we have not yet confirmed Trump`s actions are now under investigation. What does that mean? Does that mean Trump is under investigation?
PHIL RUCKER, THE WASHINGTON POST DEPUTY NATIONAL EDITOR: Well, Steph, it means that federal prosecutors as they pursue their criminal case into January 6 than the election, the fake electors scheme are scrutinizing investigating former President Trump`s actions, his words, his communications with his lawyers, and with allies and others in his inner circle.
This has become clear through recent testimony or rather recent questioning of people before a grand jury where prosecutors have asked hours of questions about what was Trump saying what was Trump directing, trying to understand Trump`s motives and his actions.
So he is or rather his actions are being scrutinized by prosecutors as part of this criminal probe that is newly reported tonight in the Washington Post. It`s not something that we`ve known about publicly. And this has been a very opaque process, as you know, very little has come out about the DOJ investigation relative to the House Select Committee`s investigation that`s been playing out in these televised hearings. And so this is a new sort of discovery about the investigation at the Department of Justice.
RUHLE: I think we`re just not used to an administration that doesn`t leak so much. Joyce, I hope you wore your Merrick Garland decoder ring tonight, I want you to put it in perspective, how big a deal is what we just learned?
JOYCE VANCE, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, it`s a big deal, Stephanie. And it`s part of what Merrick Garland, I think has been trying to convey to the country in his very restrained, DOJ speak, you`re right that we sometimes need a decoder ring. But you and I had this conversation around January 5th of this year, when Merrick Garland gave a speech that spoke very loudly to people who had that decoder ring. He talked about being willing to prosecute people no matter who they were, and whether or not they were present on January 6 of 2021.
And that suggested to me that he would be willing to look at people, not just the folks who have around the Capitol, but the folks reaching up to Trump and his inner circle. He seems to have confirmed that today along with this tremendous reporting from the Washington Post.
RUHLE: He sure did, Matt, it was not an accident what Merrick Garland said. He did not rule out charging Trump. Have some people underestimated all that the Department of Justice has been doing and Merrick Garland as the AG specifically?
MATTHEW MILLER, FMR. CHIEF SPOKESPERSON FOR DEPT. OF JUSTICE: I think so. Look, I think there`s been a great deal of frustration at the senior levels of the department. They obviously feel the pressure. I think they get frustrated, rightly frustrated when they see people saying that they`re not doing enough, especially when they see former Department officials who have been in the department and know that oftentimes the department`s work is invisible to the public. You can`t see the ducks legs moving very fast under the water.
And so I think they`ve been frustrated with some of the criticism and I suspect when this report broken The Post tonight, there were a lot of people inside the department saying See, we told you to trust us. We are taking care of this. And I suspect this investigation has probably been zeroing in on the former president, even earlier than The Post was able to report.
If you look at the activities that have become public the last few weeks, the search warrants that were served on John Eastman and Jeffrey Clark, subpoenas that went to people, you know, to closer and closer into the inner circle of the former president. And then finally the appearance before the grand jury on Friday of two senior aides to the former vice president. That was the sign that this investigation really has escalated.
And I suspect you will see more and more people from the White House and the inner circle of the former President going to that grand jury in the coming weeks as this investigation continues to escalate.
RUHLE: Let`s say on that, Ryan, because those two former top aides to Mike Pence, we`re not talking about speaking to the House Select Committee. This isn`t just some congressional hearing. They spoke to the grand jury how significant is that?
RYAN REILLY, NBC NEWS JUSTICE REPORTER: It`s very significant and, you know, like not to undermine at all The Washington Post`s fantastic reporting here and obviously journalistic jealousy is very baked into what I`m about to say but you know, there was snow on the ground and the Washington Post was able to report that it snowed last night because, you know, you had an a situation where there was evidence of them testifying, Marc Short testifying, for example, before the grand jury.
[23:10:09]
And Marc Shot is the only reason you call him into a federal grand jury is to testify about specifically what we`re talking about here. That`s the only information that he would have that is of significance. So, this is a big step forward. And I think Matt is right in terms of the DOJ being very relieved, this is sorted out because there has been this public pressure on the DOJ to sort of go further and make a public pronouncement on this, but of course, you know, you saw Garland`s words were very measured and within the bounds of what he was allowed to say.
He wasn`t going to go outside of the rules. That`s what Merrick Garland is sort of all about, about following the protocols with DOJ, Stephanie.
RUHLE: Yes, but Ryan, it is a big deal. I get the snow on the ground, and they reported that it`s snowing. Guess what, former President Trump has been lying or pushing the big lie for months and months and months with no consequences. So when there`s definitive reporting around it, that is a big deal.
REILLY: Oh, yes, it`s huge. Again, all kudos to them. They nailed it. I did. Like I think the hints were there. And they were the ones who were able to actually nail this down. So all credit goes to them for nailing this down. But like there have been a lot of ins (ph) about this in the in the months leading up to it for sure.
RUHLE: Joyce, we do know that these two top aides have Mike Pence spoke to the grand jury. I`m not saying that`s not a big deal. But we cannot assume that just because they testified they`re incriminating Trump in any way.
VANCE: So, I think that that`s right. We don`t know what goes on —
RUHLE: Joyce.
VANCE: I think that that`s correct. We don`t know what takes place in front of the grand jury. We don`t know what specific questions are asked and answered. But there`s this notion that a federal grand jury is used to nail down evidence that`s critical to a prosecution.
One of the things you worry about as a prosecutor as a witness who might go south on you, when you`re in trial, and you need that grand jury transcript, that`s a written record of testimony that they gave under oath. So you use this for important issues. And when we`re talking about Mike Pence`s chief aides, his chief of staff and his legal counsel, we know these folks were privy to conversations where, for instance, the fake elector scheme was disgust where pressure was imposed on Mike Pence by the former president to try to interfere with the smooth transfer of power.
So these are those key sorts of questions you would put them in front of a federal grand jury to ask them about, and it seems very likely consistent with the Post`s reporting, that this questioning focused on the former president`s role in these schemes.
Yes, there`s other information you might get from these two in the grand jury. But the important thing that we should be focused on tonight, is the confirmation that federal prosecutors are looking at Donald Trump`s role in what was a scheme of conspiracy to interfere with certification of the election.
RUHLE: Not just his allies, not just his team, but Donald Trump himself his role. Phil, explain this to us. Your colleagues at the post are reporting that the investigation is moving along two separate tracks. What are they?
RUCKER: Well, Stephanie, they`re two separate tracks. But it`s unclear, according to our reporting exactly whether any charges could be brought. It`s still in an early stages of this investigation. And so while they are focused in their investigation on finding out answers to questions about former President Trump`s actions and what he did and what he said, as opposed to others around him, we`re not at a stage yet, according to our reporting, were there any charges that are being contemplated being brought forward.
RUHLE: Joyce, how much more pressure is Mark Meadows under? He has not we have not heard from him. He hasn`t spoken in any of the hearings that we`ve seen yet we learned that investigators got their hands on his phone records, is the pressure not mounting for him to speak up?
VANCE: Mark Meadows has been awfully quiet lately, perhaps quiet on this timeline that follows the disclosure of many of his records to the January 6 committee. And we don`t really know what his status is. But Phil makes a very interesting point, which is that just because a grand jury is investigating, you can`t automatically assume that there will be indictments and what sorts of charges will be brought.
But one thing that prosecutors often use a grand jury to do is to go through intermediate steps before they might get towards the people most culpable, most responsible for a crime. And so it`s a safe assumption that people like Mark Meadows would also be in the Grand Jury sites if they`re looking at the conduct of Donald Trump.
RUHLE: Let`s talk about covering one`s tracks before we go.
[23:15:00]
Matt, what do you make of this new reporting from the New York Times that Trump campaign officials some of whom were lawyers actually put their fake elector scheme in writing?
MILLER: I think it tells you first of all, that those are lawyers you would never want to hire to represent you. And the second thing —
RUHLE: Might not be lawyers much longer.
MILLER: Yes, that`s right. Look, it is again, revealing about the behavior by all of the people involved at this scheme, who all throughout, were incredibly reckless about the facts were incredibly reckless about the law show no concern at all for the impact on the country.
And at the bottom, many of them knew that the scheme that they were trying to perpetrate was against the law. And these aren`t the first lawyers to have admitted that if you if you remember, John Eastman, when he sat in the Oval Office was forced to admit to on questioning and argument from Mike Pence`s lawyer that his scheme was not actually legal.
So, you have all of these attorneys who were trying to put together this scheme to steal an election that they knew was what`s not legal. And if I were any one of them, I would be very worried about the grand jury looking at my behavior next.
RUHLE: Me too. Joyce, Matt, Ryan, Phil, don`t go anywhere. This news is too big to leave it there. After the break, we`re going to talk about the political fallout from tonight`s bombshell reporting what it means for the former president and his party moving forward.
And later, the current president could be on the verge of even more wins in Congress. Our political experts are here to discuss if the White House should be doing more to showcase what they`ve already accomplished. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a big news Tuesday night.
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[23:21:20]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): It`s very clear from the evidence that we have presented that the former president bears responsibility. His hands are in this. And I presume that the Department of Justice will be thorough and defined, perhaps even more evidence and we have found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: We are tracking this breaking news with our panels. Still with us, Phil Rucker, Joyce Vance, Ryan Reilly and Matt Miller. Phil, you covered all four years of the Trump White House, you wrote two books on it. While he obviously did not get reelected, he survived other investigations. He survived two impeachments. So does this time feel any different?
RUCKER: You know, I don`t think we can assess that right now. You know, certainly I think a lot of people would assume Trump is never going to end up in jail. He`s never going to get caught. He`s never going to pay consequences for some of the things that he`s done. But we can`t always leave to those assumptions.
The House committee, for example, in the hearings for the last two months have laid out in very plain English and frankly, on live video, and in sort of real world examples, some pretty damning examples of Trump`s conduct in the run up to January 6, and the degree to which he was involved in citing the deadly attack on the Capitol.
And so it`s unclear how far the Justice Department is going to go in this investigation. It`s an important revelation that they`re investigating Trump`s actions, that doesn`t mean that they`re necessarily going to charge him but they could charge him. We just don`t know at this point. But certainly there`s a lot a growing amount of political pressure on the Attorney General and notes around him to be very aggressive as they conduct this probe.
RUHLE: The stakes could not be higher. Joyce, I want to share what former Senator Claire McCaskill had to say about this investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FMR. SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: There is a risk to indicting a former president in terms of what it does to this country. But I believe in these circumstances, the risk is so much greater if they let this guy go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Joyce, describe how high the stakes really are.
VANCE: The worst risk we run if Trump is never held accountable is that his failed coup attempt becomes the dress rehearsal for the real thing. This is someone who has demonstrated that he presents an ongoing threat to democracy, it`s someone who didn`t have any regard for the oath of office he took, someone who didn`t believe that his personal conduct was constrained by the rule of law. And someone who even in the last couple of weeks has been urging elected officials, this time of State House leader in Wisconsin to declare that he had in fact won the 2020 election, if he has not stopped, if he is not held accountable, he continues to have the ability to operate and so those stakes are very high.
Claire makes this point that I know is on the minds of folks at the Justice Department. We don`t want to become the sort of tin pot, you know, dictatorship type country where former leaders are routinely prosecuted. That`s not the aspect for a healthy democracy.
But what Trump did so far exceeds the bounds of acceptable conduct it strikes at the heart of the existence of the democracy itself. And that`s the kind of conduct that merits what we`re seeing tonight, very serious investigation and a determination about whether it should be prosecuted.
RUHLE: A very serious investigation that finally the American people have really gotten some insight into and watching Merrick Garland tonight sort of unflappable in what he had to say.
[23:25:07]
Matt, do you think all that we saw, all that we learned tonight could change how the public is viewing the Justice Department and their handling of January 6?
MILLER: Yes, I think it absolutely could both the leak and something that the Attorney General said. I thought there was one thing that he made very clear, could have really for the first time, and that is these concerns that some people have that prosecuting a former president would tear — tear apart the country or somewhat have take us down the road to a banana republic. That`s not a consideration the department is making right now.
He was very clear in response to that question from Lester Holt, that they are going to make this decision based just on the facts and the law. But that`s not to say that it`s still — it`s an easy decision. They`re still I think, you know, I don`t think we should assume that charges will be brought. They may be brought, they may not the former president will have powerful defenses to any of the possible charges. But what they`re not going to consider is whether he deserved some special status because he`s a former president.
Look, I agree we shouldn`t be prosecuting every former president. But there`s one easy way for presidents to avoid being prosecuted. And that`s not to break the law. No one ever worried about Barack Obama being prosecuted when he left office because he didn`t, you know, go on a multiyear crime spree while he was president.
So, if presidents do break the law while they`re in office, they deserve to be held accountable, just like any other American citizen, and to somehow give them a free pass, I think really does just encourage that kind of law breaking in the Oval Office.
RUHLE: Not adhering to a peaceful transfer of power after a free and fair election is a fast track to a banana republic. Ryan, I know you`re also covering the hundreds of criminal cases for these insurrectionists. Give us the latest.
REILLY: Yes, so these cases are ongoing. Even last week, as Steve Bannon was being convicted in his misdemeanor trial. There was another trial ongoing for a felony case against a rioter who stormed the Capitol and he was convicted. He his excuses that he brought to the jury weren`t believed.
And once again today, we`ve had these cases continue to go on. There`s another individual who was sentenced to five years behind bars. It`s tied for the longest sentence of any January 6 defendant to date. And this is an individual who attacks Sergeant Gonell who has obviously been in front of the January 6 committee previously, it has been on a lot of these hearings. And Sergeant Gonell I talked to him today after he presented his victim impact statement before the court.
This wasn`t an individual who had actually severely injured but no but it was someone who took a battering ram, took a poll and was hitting him with it and luckily started to, you know, was able to block it with the shields but later on suffered some injuries from another rioter that sidelined him and his career with a Capitol Police so he was glad to see that case brought to fruition, Stephanie.
RUHLE: All right, Phil Rucker, Joyce fans, Ryan Reilly, Matt Miller, thank you for joining us tonight. Busy, busy night around here. Coming up. Mike Pence says he in the former guy may differ on focus and urged unity among Republicans. But is that even possible? Our political experts are here to break it all down when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:32:56]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: So I don`t know that our movement is that divided. I don`t know that the President and I differ on issues. But we may differ on focus. I truly do believe that elections are about the future. And I think the time has come just offer a bold, positive agenda to bring America back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Speaking before a crowd of young conservatives, the former Vice President was making his case for a united Republican Party. But I want you to listen to this very divisive message now coming from some members of the GOP.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): The church is supposed to direct government not the opposite way. The church supposed to influence government.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): We need to be the party of nationalism. And I`m a Christian and I say it probably we should be Christian nationalists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Perhaps Mike Pence didn`t hear what his former lieutenant had to say about that (INAUDIBLE). I want to discuss all of this and bring in pollster and Democratic strategist Cornell Belcher. He`s an MSNBC political analyst, and our friend Michael Steele, former chairman of the Republican National Committee and former Lieutenant Governor of Maryland.
Mr. Steele, how much longer can Republicans kind of ignore what is going on with Trump this investigation?
MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: Oh, all day, all night, in the next week, next year. There`s no limit to how long they can ignore anything that has to do with Donald Trump. I mean, that includes the vice president. I think he`s missing a moment here where he can make a declarative statement. He was on the tip of the spear on January 6. He stood his ground. He, you know, helps firm and true to the Constitution tell that story. This party is divided as hell.
[23:35:00]
I mean, Maury (ph), I mean, Boebert and no, we`re not Christian nationalism. Really you`re going to go talk about that if you`re running for president in 2024. Come on stop it. It`s just, you know, this just a name stupidity that we sort of wallow in that somehow you got one group that thinks that all we`re just if we don`t look at it goes away. And another group that thinks well if we just make the stain bigger, if we make the sound uglier, more people will join us and it`s just banality at this point.
RUHLE: Well, you know who didn`t look at Donald Trump today, Fox News. Cornell, Fox News aired zero minutes of former President Trump`s speech in DC the first time he returned to DC since January 20. They aired 17 minutes of Mike Pence, what does that tell you?
CORNELL BELCHER, POLLSTER AND POLITICAL STRATEGIST: That tells me that the least some of the elites on the right are beginning to sour and come to their senses. But Brother Steele knows this better than I that there`s the lease. And then there`s the grass roots.
STEELE: Right.
BELCHER: And as of June, you still had 70 percent of Republicans who don`t think that Biden is a legitimate president. And I dare you. I dare to say that if you looked at those Republicans who vote consistently in a Republican primary, it`s probably closer to 90 percent that don`t think that he`s legitimate president.
And you see the problem bearing out even in Republican primary, and Wyoming, with Liz Cheney. You know, once upon a time, a name by Cheney was solid conservative Republicans, it was good luck beating a Cheney in a Republican primary. But now because Cheney is in fact going up against Trump, you see what`s happening. She`s probably going to lose that election by double digits.
So I think it`s interesting that the elites, you know, are beginning to sort of try to turn the attention away from Trump. But I still think though, he`s got a long way to go before the grassroots of the Republican and this and this MAGA movement, abandoned him and they don`t show any signs right now of abandoning Donald Trump or abandoning the idea that the election was stolen from him.
RUHLE: But I still don`t get the coming to their senses argument, Michael, if Mike Pence is saying the only thing different between me and Donald Trump is his focus. The MAGA agenda doesn`t get you elected to the White House. If you`ve noticed, Joe Biden won not Trump. What`s my path? What Mike Pence`s path?
STEELE: Exactly. Well, what is his path is passes through a Trump of five base. And he`s trying to have it both ways. He`s trying not to offend, keep them close, but not so close that the stench in the stain is not easily removed. You know, should he, you know, lightning strike and it gets to the primary. He has to now convinced the rest of the country that is not like the very folks that he`s been Cal tiling to. And that`s the problem with the elites.
You know, let`s, the fact is, y`all made this soup. Y`all made it. And now you just don`t get to look at the soup on the stove and see it spoil and go, Oh, we don`t want anything to do with that. No, you had your kitchen, your suit, you made it.
Now you`re going to have to eat it. You just don`t get off of Trump that easily six years after the fact. I`m sorry, from the Wall Street Journal to everybody else who`s now sitting there backstroking and acted like, Oh, my God, how did this ever happen? We can`t be with this guy. Dude, you created this monster. This is your puppet deal with it.
RUHLE: Well, they are not serving that soup in the current White House, and I want to talk about the current president because President Biden is on the cusp of some potentially really big wins in Congress on prescription drugs, on chip manufacturing, on protections for marriage equality.
Cornell, will Democrats finally figure out how to brag about some of these earned accomplishments because we saw Trump for four years brag about a whole lot of accomplishments that didn`t even happen.
BELCHER: I would like to say yes, but probably not.
RUHLE: Why?
BELCHER: Well, it`s like herding cats.
STEELE: He made that problems.
BELCHER: But it is, it`s like herding cats. But here`s the fundamental problem. Someone in social media who`s focusing on social media pointed this out to me today. If you look at the social media and the messaging coming from 30 Democrats and like the Democrats, you`ll see 30 different messages a day. You look at the Republicans, and you`ll see maybe two or three things are talking about, right.
And if you look at some of the most — the sort of the harshest criticism of Biden hasn`t come from this Republicans but it`s come from other Democrats are always chirping and piling on, on what he has not done.
[23:40:09]
I would argue that right now, you know, and Stephanie, I don`t think there`s a magical. Look, I work for a guy by the name Obama who pass a lot of things in 2008, 2009 and still got details within 20 and a magical number of legislation or pieces of bills that that makes OK, well, Democrats are going to be OK, because they pass this number of bills.
I do think they need this have a unified message. And particularly for younger voters who, look, they are very frustrated. And if you look at where Biden`s job approvals and dropped off the most, it is quite frankly with millennial who progressives need in order to win to win elections. And those millennials are disappointed that a lot of the things that they saw that they were marching for, have not been passed.
Now, we got to have conversations with them about why those things haven`t been passed. And you know what, a conversation about two more senators in, you know, in the United States Senate, we can actually move some of those legs — to move some of that stuff.
But right now, Stephanie, the biggest, you know, the biggest enemy of Democrats are fellow Democrats who won`t stay on message and on television every day, you know, talking down President Biden.
RUHLE: They win the game and they don`t know how to do a touchdown dance. They might have to learn. Gentlemen, there`s so much more I want to cover but unfortunately we`re out of time. Cornell Belcher and Michael Steele, thank you both so much.
Coming up, Congress searching for the solution to America`s gun violence epidemic. We will ask a former firearms executive what he intends to tell the House Oversight Committee when he testifies tomorrow. THE 11TH HOUR has a lot more to cover.
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[23:46:27]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOLT: I want to ask you about mass shootings we`ve seen far too many and some of them with people with strong right wing or extremist philosophies. How do you intercept those people before they shoot?
GARLAND: This is the most difficult question in a democracy. We have to respect the First Amendment. We can`t just troll the internet looking what everybody in the country is doing. But we have joint terrorism task forces.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Members of Congress are also trying to answer what the Attorney General just called the most difficult question in a democracy. Tomorrow, the House Oversight Committee will ask AR-15 manufacturers about their role in America`s gun violence epidemic.
For the first time in decades, the House Judiciary Committee has advanced a bill to ban assault weapons. The Democrats and Republicans clashed before the party line vote.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP0
REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): Assault Weapons only purpose is to kill people efficiently.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): They are obsessed with attacking law abiding Americans, Second Amendment liberties.
REP. LUCY MCBATH (D-GA): We are paying for these weapons of war on our streets with the blood of our children sitting in our classrooms.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): They are common for your guns. They`re listing them out in this extensive legislation.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (R-MD): They say that when we argue for removing weapons of war from the streets of America, we`re actually telling them to repeal the Second Amendment. Mr. Chairman, we are not telling them to repeal the Second Amendment. We are telling them to read the Second Amendment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: We welcome back Ryan Busse, a former firearms executive who helped build one of the world`s most iconic gun companies. He`s now a senior adviser at the gun safety organization Giffords. He`s also the author of “Gunfight: My battle against the industry that Radicalized America.” Ryan, you have got a very big day tomorrow, you`re testifying in the hearing, give us a preview.
RYAN BUSSE, FMR. FIREARMS EXECUTIVE: Yes, I am testifying against some of the folks that I was in the industry with for some time testifying with them. And I think it`s very important that I stand up for responsible gun owners. You know, I am one of those responsible gun owners and I think it`s high time. You know, frankly, I`m with Jamie Raskin there.
There is no right that exists in a democracy that isn`t balanced by responsibility and regulation. And right now, our balance is way out of whack and some of the actions that the industry has undertaken as of late the kind of irresponsible marketing that is being propagated on the on the country is just — it`s beyond the pale to be honest.
RUHLE: Ryan, you wrote something pretty terrifying in the Atlantic recently. It`s why I invited you on tonight, where you wrote the gun industry is giving us a glimpse of its next customer, the American child soldier. What do you mean?
BUSSE: Well, there`s recently been two advertisements or social media posts one by Daniel Defense who was on Marty Daniel was on the committee is testifying tomorrow. Also won by a new firearms company called WEE1 Tactical.
WEE1 Tactical launch this year at the firearms industry SHOT Show that`s the large industry trade show and WEE1 means a little one as in little kid right. And their gun. The thing that they launched is a JR-15 is in junior AR-15.
On the same week that the kid in — the teenager in Uvalde was using a Daniel Defense rifle. Daniel Defense had the now infamous social media post up on Twitter. I have a toddler holding one of their rifles.
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And I just think that these things are egregious. They`re not things that responsible gun owners are OK with. They`re things that the industry is now accepting. And if those are a forebear of the kind of marketing efforts that we`re going to see targeting kids, we`ve been targeting troubled young men with marketing. And now we`re going to target kids. I mean, I think, you know, the Congress needs to step up and do something.
RUHLE: Why don`t we know more about who runs these gun companies? Right. I liken it to the Sackler family and the opioid crisis. We learned everything about them, and they suffered pretty significant consequences. Why don`t we know? Who are the bosses? Who are their families? What are these people all about?
BUSSE: Well, that`s a very good question, Stephanie. The truth is that the firearms industry is a very, very closed knit tight, runs a police state, information does not leak out. The things that you know, generally are from public reports, you know, public filings from a couple of companies, Smith and Wesson and Ruger being two of them, that those are the things that we learned.
But for the most part, the firearms industry is run by family businesses. And it`s run very, very tightly. I mean, my book and my effort represents the grand total of anybody who has ever spoken out and spoken truth about the firearms industry from the inside, right, for 400 years. I`m hit that tells you how that that`s not the way it was at the opioid industry. There were there are plenty of whistleblowers.
I don`t consider myself a whistleblower. I`m just a truth teller. But the truth is that it`s very, very hard to get inside those businesses and know what`s going on.
RUHLE: So realistically, given the resistance in Congress, given how powerful this industry is, what is it good hearing tomorrow? What does that look like?
BUSSE: Well, I think that some of the truth comes out. You mentioned that Atlantic article. There`s some very difficult truths in that Atlantic article that I wrote. And the truth of, for instance, the industry is marketing or has marketed a rifle to Boogaloo boys, right, with Hawaiian prints on it, just like their shirts. There`s a rifle being marketed called the Urban Super Sniper, as if it was tailor made for Kyle Rittenhouse.
I mean, do we have to use our imagination as to why troubled young 18-year- old, 19-year-old, 20-year-old kids are rushing to solve their problems with guns like this? I mean, the marketing is encouraging to do that.
So I think if we shine a light on that, and I have to say, you know, 65 senators came together recently and voted on a gun bill, 65 senators haven`t come together on anything for I can`t even remember when the last time was. So there is something bubbling up in the general public about the frustration about the truce that we`re going to hear tomorrow. And I think it`s important that we shine a light on those.
RUHLE: Certainly is and for any of those big time gun manufacturers, those big gun families, you`re so proud of this business, we`d love to hear from you. You`re welcome to join me any night of the week right here on MSNBC, 11:00 pm. Ryan, so good to see you. We look forward to watching those hearings tomorrow.
BUSSE: Thank you.
RUHLE: When we come back. We`re going to work on a little financial fact checking in the busy week of economic data dumps. There`s a lot to cover when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Two years ago we had the greatest. There`s never been anything like two years ago. It`s great this like no one had ever seen.
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RUHLE: The last thing before we go this evening, revisionist history. Our friends over at The Recount uncovered some interesting sound from Marsha Blackburn today. Watch this.
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SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): Under President Trump economic success was pretty much a given. The country was recovering from the pandemic. We had a plan to repair our supply chains, and the American people were starting to have hope that the dystopian nightmare they had been living through was finally over.
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RUHLE: Hold your horses. Under President Trump economic success was pretty much a given. For facta sake, let`s take a look back at the Trump economy. There`s this Washington Post analysis from January 8 2021 quote, Trump will have the worst jobs record in modern U.S. history. It`s not just the pandemic. Trump is the only modern president to leave office with fewer jobs than when he took office. 3 million fewer jobs to be exact.
Of course, the pandemic was the root cause for so many jobs lost across the country in the late part of his administration. But this chart right here shows that even before the pandemic job growth under Trump was at a lower pace than most other presidents.
And as the Washington Post puts it, quote, President Trump took office at the crest of the longest economic expansion in U.S. history. He leaves presiding over the worst labor market in modern U.S. history as an already sputtering economic recovery has turned negative.
Remember, Trump took office with a winning economy. So let`s fast forward to right now and look at some key numbers to come this week.
Today we learned consumer confidence has declined for a third straight month. Not good news but also not a surprise when everything in your life costs more you don`t feel good about the economy, and when the tool of government uses to slow rising prices makes it more expensive to borrow. But we don`t like that much either.
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And tomorrow, we`re going to find out if the Fed plans to raise rates again, any likely well. On Thursday, we get GDP numbers likely going to show a second quarter of decline. Also not great news. But it doesn`t mean it`s a full blown recession. Why? Because there`s other things, there is good news. We`ve got low unemployment, steady job growth and high rate of savings. The economy is not all good. The economy is not all bad. What we have in this giant country of ours is a complicated economy. And that`s the truth.
And on that note, I wish you all a very good and very safe night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I will see you at the end of tomorrow.