Updated
Summary
Day two of the January 6th committee public hearings zeroes in on Trump`s “big lie”. Lawmakers reach a bipartisan framework on gun safety. And stocks plunge into bear market territory amid rising inflation.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Senator Raphael Warnock got tonight`s “LAST WORD”. His book is titled “Away Out of No Way, “and it is available tomorrow. THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
[23:00:13]
STEPHANIE RUHLE: Tonight from The Big Lie to The Big Rip off, damning new testimony from Trump insiders of their bosses detachment from the truth, and we are following the money how the former guys campaign spent the millions that was supposed to fight election fraud.
Then rare bipartisan progress on gun safety. What is and is not in the deal. And doesn`t go far enough.
Plus, another tough day on Wall Street surging inflation, soaring gas prices, as the bears come out who`s really to blame all this as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Monday night.
Good evening, once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. It is a critical question as important today, as it was 50 years ago, what did the President know? And when did he know it?
Today, in its second public hearing, the January 6 committee tried to answer that very question. The panel laid out how Donald Trump embraced election lies and ignored his own top aides as they repeatedly debunked his false claims in the days, weeks, and even months leading up to the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): After the election as of November 7th, in your judgment, what were the chances of President Trump winning the election?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After that point?
LOFGREN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Non.
ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ADVISOR: What they were proposing, I thought was nuts. The theory was also completely nuts.
BILL BARR, FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I thought, boy, if he really believes this stuff, he has, you know, lost contact with these become detached from reality. When I went into this and would tell him how crazy some of these allegations were. There was never an indication of interest in what the absolute facts.
My opinion then and my opinion now is that the election was not stolen by fraud.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Former President instead chose to just — choose to side with an allegedly drunk Rudy Giuliani, who reportedly encouraged Trump to falsely claim he won the election.
Giuliani denies that he was intoxicated. He denies that he was drinking at all. But here`s what former Trump campaign adviser Jason Miller told the committee he saw election night just before Trump went on TV to call the election fraud.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there anyone in that conversation who in your observation had too much to drink?
JASON MILLER, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE Mayor Giuliani. The mayor was definitely intoxicated, but I did not know that his level of toxic intoxication when he spoke with the President, for example.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Tonight, the former guy issued a 12-page response filled with many of those very false claims and conclusions. We heard his own advisers call and I`m going to quote this completely nuts.
Today`s hearing also highlighted how the committee is following the money. The panel detailed how the Trump campaign used and continues to use election fraud claims to rake in over 250 million bucks from his supporters. Some of those very funds were supposedly used for any Election Defense Fund, a fund that the committee says doesn`t even exist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOFGREN: Throughout the committee`s investigation, we found evidence that the Trump campaign and its surrogates misled donors as to where their funds would go and what they would be used for. So not only was there the big lie, there was the big rip off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: During an interview this afternoon, the committee`s Zoe Lofgren, who you saw just there also revealed that former Trump campaign adviser and girlfriend to Donald Trump Jr, Kimberly Guilfoyle, she was paid 60,000 bucks from those election fraud donations for what, a two and a half minute speaking gig at the January 6 rally.
Tonight the committee`s chair and vice chair appear to disagree over the potential for criminal referrals. But fellow committee member Adam Schiff says there is enough evidence for the Justice Department to consider indicting Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The Justice Department they need to be doing their own investigation. They clearly are investigating many of the people who attack the Capitol on January 6 than those who organized or funded them. But as our committee has been demonstrating there were multiple lines of effort to overturn the election, as the judge in California has said some of those lines of effort likely involved criminal activity on the part of the president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Today, Attorney General Merrick Garland said the Department of Justice is watching closely and will follow the facts wherever they lead.
[23:05:08
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am watching and I will be watching all the hearings. I can assure you that the January 6 prosecutors are watching all the hearings as well.
We are proceeding with full urgency with respect, as I`ve said many times before, to hold all perpetrators who are criminally responsible for January 6 accountable, regardless of their level, their position and regardless of whether they were present at the events of January 6.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: There`s a lot of news to get through tonight. So with the help of our leadoff panel, let`s get smarter. Katie Benner joins us, Justice Department reporter for the New York Times, former friend and advisor to Melania Trump, Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, she wrote the book, “Melania and Me: The Rise and Fall of My Friendship with the First Lady,” and Chuck Rosenberg joins us, a former U.S. attorney and former senior FBI official.
Katie, jog our memories. Bill Barr`s deposition that we saw today was significantly different from all the public statements we heard from him as Attorney General. Can you remind our viewers of the role he played before he started calling BS?
KATIE BENNER: THE NEW YORK TIMES JUSTICE DEPT. REPORTER: Sure. So a lot happened. Of course before the election and after the election, it`s easy to forget. But before the election, we saw back in April of 2020, Donald Trump saying if he lost, it was going to be because of fraud. So he was saying that months and months and months before the election.
And Bill Barr, the former Attorney General, he echoed those sentiments also before the election in September to the media to CNN to NPR and before Congress saying that any election that had a lot of mail in ballots as 2020 was going to have would certainly be riddled with fraud when pressed on why he thought that he said it was just common sense.
It wasn`t until after the election, when Donald Trump refused to concede that Bill Barr decided to confront the president and say, you know, this really isn`t true. However, the public narrative had been said, Donald Trump was writing off the public narrative that had been set before the election. And then after the election, Barr had a very difficult time dissuading it from this.
So what he told the committee in testimony behind closed doors in his depositions, some of which was aired today. He said that he told the president he thought this was BS, he said it was ridiculous. He said that, you know, if President Trump really believed these things, he kind of lost the plot him and then he was doing a disservice to the country, and then that he was punished like crazy.
But at the same time, he always kept these sentiments to himself, even when he quit in December of 2020. He complimented the president, he lauded Trump, and he left on what were considerably good terms, given all the fighting they`ve done in the background. He never let the American people know exactly how concerned he was until his book came out. And even on his book tour, he has said that he would vote for President Trump again.
RUHLE: Which is why so many people are calling BS to Bill Barr.
Chuck, in your estimation, has the committee made a strong enough case that Trump knew he lost the election? And despite that, he still orchestrated efforts to overturn it.
CHUCK ROSENBERG, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY: Yes, great questions, Stephanie. They`ve made a very strong case that lots and lots of people told him that he lost the election. And you know, to you or me or anyone on this panel, and anyone with an ounce of common sense, that would prove that he knew.
But there also seems to be some sort of larger problem with this president, this former president in the way he processes information. And Bill Barr alluded to it right, that it was detached from reality.
And so while I think there`s ample proof that he knew, or at least was told, you still have to prove that he intended to fill in the blank, defraud investors, mislead voters, obstruct Congress, right, you know, to do all of these things requires a level of intent, that is always difficult to prove.
So, yes, and no. Yes, lots of people told him that he lost, any rational, thoughtful person would understand that and internalize it and process it. This guy seems utterly incapable of doing that. And so I think there`s still a bit of an open question about his intent.
By the way, the mere fact that we have an open question about intent doesn`t mean it can`t be proved by some other means in a court of law. There are lots of ways to prove intent. We`re only seeing some of it so far. Stephanie, there`s a lot more to come. I imagine.
RUHLE: Stephanie, you know, the Trump family very well. What is your take when we hear now Bill Barr saying that President Trump was detached from reality. He started his political career, claiming Obama wasn`t born in the U.S. and demanding his birth certificate. Over the course of four years, he told 30,000 lies or misleading statements according to the New York — Washington Post.
[23:10:00]
STEPHANIE WINSTON WOLKOFF, FMR. FRIEND AND ADVISOR TO MELANIA TRUMP: Well, as we know, this is a pattern over and over. And this pattern and these players and all the individuals that are involved in this unbelievable to be able see January 6 happen. And the fact that we`re watching this unfold in front of our eyes is something that we need to just take a step back and realize what is really happening in front of us. And who is this man is completely in control now of millions and millions of people and why.
And we have to remember that it`s not just Donald, there is his family. There`s Ivanka, there`s Don Jr., there`s Jared. These were supposed to be his advisors. And these advisors, including Bill Barr, putting everyone on that is being asked questions, and that is coming in from the January 6 committee has to be held liable for the fact that no one said a word.
RUHLE: Well, let`s — let me ask you about the friends and family because this $250 million that they raised for this election defense fraud fund, Kim Guilfoyle, the girlfriend should have paid 60 grand for a two minute speech exactly from those funds. What`s your take on that?
WOLKOFF: Stephanie, its pattern, pattern, pattern. It`s nonprofit. It`s, you know, abuse of funds. I mean, we do just follow the money and you do find it all leads to Donald Trump.
RUHLE: Reminder for our audience when Stephanie mentions nonprofit, a New York judge during Trump`s presidency ruled that Ivanka Trump and other Trump family members weren`t even allowed to sit on a charitable board for the next 10 years because of the misuse of funds with their family foundation. Think about that.
Chuck, do you think there is enough, enough that one can make a case that Trump and his people committed financial fraud?
ROSENBERG: Yes, this part of it is really interesting to me, Stephanie. So if investors or donors were told one thing, for instance, Stephanie, if I told you that you should donate to my fund because I`m going to invest it for you, or I`m going to use it for a certain purpose. And that induces you to give me money. And I don`t do what I promised you I would do with it. That`s a fraud. And it looks like that happened to the tune of $250 million with tens of thousands of donors.
You recall that Steve Bannon, another grifter was indicted, ultimately pardoned by Trump, but indicted for a very similar scheme, the build the wall scheme, in which he induced people to part with their money to build a wall on the southern border. And the money that they raised went to Bannon and his co-conspirators personal use, that seems to be what`s going on here.
So, the other Stephanie just referenced this, right, follow the money, another phrase, not sure if it`s out of the hearing, or the movie concerning Watergate, but you follow the money. And here if you follow the money, it goes from donors who were induced to part with it based on a series of lies, to PACs and foundations, and ultimately, to members of the Trump family and their friends. And that`s a crime.
And now, I don`t know who concocted the scheme. I don`t know who wrote the pitch. I don`t know who authorized the emails. But I could tell you if I was still in the Justice Department. Those are precisely the questions I would be asking, because this has all the makings of a financial fraud.
RUHLE: Then after a hearing like this, Chuck, do you think all sorts of donors who may have been watching television, Fox News did air the hearing today? Are they going to be picking up the phone calling the DOJ or even their local police department and say, Can you look into this money that I donated?
ROSENBERG: Some will, some won`t. Some continue to believe the big lie. Some are wedded to the notion that there is election fraud and that the Trump`s are still trying to get to the bottom of it, Stephanie.
You have lots and lots of people give lots and lots of money for lots and lots of different reasons, some won`t care and some will care a lot. It always struck me as odd when I was a federal prosecutor, that some victims really can`t even process the fact that they`ve been victimized. They don`t want to believe it. They still trust the person who made false representations to them. There`s a whole another group of victims who are irate.
And so I don`t know that I can give you a single answer that would describe how all victims respond to learning that they had been cheated, defrauded, but a number I bet you are very angry.
RUHLE: Katie, how much pressure is the Department of Justice under at this point to investigate Trump in a really big way?
BENNER: These hearings are serving to place more pressure on the Justice Department to do something about Trump something that feels visible and something that feels as public as the hearings. Unfortunately, that`s just not what the Justice Department is going to do. And it`s not really how it works.
At the same time, though, to your point, when you have members of Congress coming out to podiums and microphones and saying we are laying out a roadmap for Merrick Garland to prosecute Donald Trump. That is pressure.
Keep in mind, though, that the committee still has not yet to share its own transcript of its interviews with the justice department which would be an enormous pool of evidence that the department would need to mind and go through before it could actually conceivably bring any case against anybody who wasn`t physically on the Capitol grounds on January 6, where it`s focused much of its investigation.
[23:15:13]
So it first needs to get that information to the committee. We saw a federal prosecutor say an open court just last week that they expect to get those transcripts when the committee makes them public to everyone, probably not until the fall. So we have to wait for that. We`d also want to get past the midterm elections, you really can`t imagine the Justice Department taking big investigative steps against anybody in the Trump orbit, or anybody who would, you know, you conceivably say, would impact the outcome of the midterms. So you`d have to wait to get past that as well.
It`s probably unlikely to see any sort of big investigative step anything public that would give the kind of indication that the Justice Department is moving closer to Trump`s inner circle until after those two points in time.
RUHLE: Let`s talk about that inner circle, Stephanie, because we heard today about two competing groups in Trump`s world, Team Normal and Team Giuliani, Trump`s former campaign manager said he was on Team Normal. But do you buy that to even say, Oh, well, there was a team Giuliani. Rudy Giuliani was next to Trump every step of the campaign and this administration.
Can anyone who was hanging around the hoop gaining power and money over those four years claim they were on the normal side?
WOLKOFF: Trump surrounds himself with people that are just like so to his children. And those are the individuals that he surrounds himself 24/7. It`s a family of grits. And unfortunately, we the American people are suffering.
And just to hear that, you know, nothing happens before the midterms is disheartening, quite honestly, just as a citizen to look around and see what`s going on. And to know that Donald, Giuliani and the people around him are responsible, and no one has been held accountable is sort of, you know, we need to do something.
And I don`t understand. I understand there`s precedents before you actually have to do something this major, but at the same time, you know, our country and our democracy is in peril.
RUHLE: Then Steph, given how well you know, the family. Yes, we`re watching these hearings, humiliating for the Trump`s really bad press. But do you think they`re scared? They have yet to face any, any consequences for years?
WOLKOFF: For years, I mean, they`ve gotten away with so many different instances, and they`ve gotten off, you know, so many, unfortunately, the Southern District. When you`re not held accountable, you will continue to do you know, the most dishonest things you can possibly do because you get away with it.
And Jared and Ivanka, I think it would have been great if they stayed in New York and lead their own lives. Unfortunately, they came to DC. And they sorted themselves and we serve many, many different positions, believing that they should be in charge, and when it worked, but that it worked, and they continued to grip it and they continued to do what they wanted to do.
But I have to tell you, Stephanie, you know, this whole, you know, all these stories about the fact that they`re flipping, you know, I think that this is pre-determined how they are acting, I believe that they fully understand things.
RUHLE: Flipping? What evidence is there that they`re flipping that Ivanka said I believe Bill Barr. There`s no evidence that they`re flipping. Ivanka and Jared have made more money over the last four years than they did in their entire lives.
Jared simply said, I wasn`t part of stop the steal, what he left out is that he was in the Middle East raising money for himself. They flipped on no one.
WOLKOFF: That`s exactly right. They did flip on not one. But again, media, unfortunately, many people are misinterpreting the fact they are, you know, on record, just you`re saying.
RUHLE: Not here.
WOLKOFF: And what everybody else is saying. I know. So I just wanted — I`d want to be clear about that. They know exactly what they`re doing. And I`m sure they spent those six months taking care of different sorts of property, moving maybe some finances here and there. I don`t know whose names they might be in or what countries around the world they may be in. But believe me, they are absolutely, you know, head and foot with their fault.
RUHLE: I`ll borrow a term from Bill Barr. I`m not buying any of that BS. Chuck, what are you looking to have answered in the upcoming hearings? What do you want to learn?
ROSENBERG: Yes, I want to hear more stuff from more people who were around Trump. And not just Stephanie, what people told Trump, but also what Trump told these people, right? So we`ve discussed this, you and I before on your show, it`s always hard to prove intent. The way you do it is by getting into someone`s mind. The way you get into someone`s mind is by talking to people who talk to that person.
So, I want to see more of the conversation from both sides, not just what Bill Barr told Trump, not just what former AG Jeffrey Rosen told Trump, but the directions that Trump gave to underlings.
[23:20:00]
And not all that by the way is going to come from high profile witnesses. Some of that will come from staff and I understand we`re going to be having some lower level staff and upcoming hearings. And I also want to follow the money. The thing we alluded to earlier, I think the financial fraud aspect of this is utterly fascinating. And if people were really truly asked to donate to a thing that doesn`t exist, that`s not a hard case, Stephanie.
RUHLE: Well, we`ll be watching Katie Benner, Stephanie Winston Wolkoff, and Chuck Rosenberg. Thank you all for definitely starting us off tonight and making us smarter.
Coming up. We will ask former Defense Secretary with the revelations about what led to the January 6 riot signal about the state of our national security. And later, a rare bipartisan deal reached just as hundreds of thousands march to condemn gun violence. What happens next? And will it be enough? THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a Monday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:25:31]
RUHLE: Today`s hearing wrapped with the words of January 6 protesters explaining why they decided to go to the Capitol that day. They had been convinced wrongly of massive voter fraud. Watch this.
Let`s welcome Chuck Hagel, former Secretary of Defense during the Obama administration. Secretary, I really appreciate you joining us tonight.
Today, we learned that —
CHUCK HAGEL, FMR. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Thank you.
RUHLE: — the former president of the United States was taking advice from the allegedly drunk Rudy Giuliani. And this is over many of his top aides who tried to stop him from lying about the election.
Put January 6 aside. As a former Defense Secretary, what red flags does this raise about our national security, then throughout the Trump presidency, he operated this way?
HAGEL: Well, he did operate this way over his four years as president, unfortunately. But your question about the red flags for Defense Department, and more than that our country, the United States military never, ever should be involved in any kind of political actions, especially elections. And that`s not their role. And they can be maneuvered and manipulated and used to like he tried to do that.
But more to the point to is his administration during this period on January 6, other than Mike Pence, the Vice President making some calls to the Pentagon and other responsible officials to do something about it, as there were numerous now we know, numerous calls and emails sent directly to the President to do something to stop it.
So I think the more we — the American people are enlightened by the results of what the findings of the January 6 committee have been, and sharing those findings with the American people are absolutely critical, critical for the understanding of our citizenry what happened, what actually happened based on facts.
And second, how do we make sure assure in every way we can with any new measurements we need to implement that this doesn`t happen again. Yes, I know, it`s based on who is in the White House, who the leaders are. But one of the points here too, is the American citizens have a responsibility to select the right leaders, and they`ve got to pay attention to the facts. Facts are important. Leadership matters.
RUHLE: Then to that enlightenment, you talked about, retired general Russel Honore says now he is convinced Trump directed help orchestrate and motivated the attack on the Capitol. Is he right?
HAGEL: I think he is right, not because he said it, or anybody else said it, but based on the facts, based on what the January 6 committee has already provided, the American people and there are more hearings.
So the facts speak for themselves, and especially when you look at the many of the witnesses, who are Trump cabinet members, White House officials in the Trump administration, supporters of Mr. Trump. I mean, that`s pretty devastating, and pretty clear from the Trump people themselves what happened on that day, and who was responsible for maneuvering that and the violence that led up to it, and who really engaged it and manipulated, Mr. Trump manipulated his followers to engage in this.
RUHLE: You recently co-signed an opinion piece for USA Today that said, This is no time for a partisan circus. It argued that these hearings should not be you used by anyone as an opportunity to score political points. How do you think the committee is doing that?
[23:30:07]
HAGEL: Well, it first of all, we recognize that this is a issue that`s like handling nitroglycerin. And we all know the deep, deep divide in this country, political divide the polarization. President Trump`s supporters don`t believe, haven`t believed anything that`s been said in the last year and a half about what happened January 6. I don`t think you`re going to convince many of his supporters any differently.
But what`s important here for the history of this country, and the facts as they have been presented are critically important. I think the committee is doing a pretty good job with it. It`s a tough job to do and the charge about why do we have to go back and replay this on January 6, we`ve got terrible problems in this country today, inflation and so many others, gasoline prices, why are we focused on that? Well, we`re focused on that, too. Of course, we are.
The President has to be, the government has to be, but you can`t dismiss something like this. This was historic what happened on January 6th.
RUHLE: Then let me ask you about elected officials, Republicans and the big lie, because we heard today from several, you pointed out, Trump appointed insiders, including Bill Barr, who knew that Trump was lying. They knew full well he lost the election, yet 147 House Republicans still voted against the Electoral College certification on January 6, what does that tell you about the current GOP?
HAGEL: Well, I don`t know what the current GOP is about what it stands for. I`m still a Republican. I`m not sure probably why and I don`t know what they stand for. But there are enough Republicans out there who are against how Trump govern this country, and the lies and the deceit and the disinformation, misinformation that came out of the Trump White House, came out of his mouth. And that continues to this day, especially with the lie, the big lie that that Mr. Biden and the Democrats stole the election. That`s untrue.
So I think the GOP is in a lot of trouble. And I do think an encouraging sign, I think the strong control that Mr. Trump has exercised over the Republican Party is dwindling. I think it`s eroding. I think you`re seeing that in a lot of different states.
I mean, for example, my state Nebraska, his candidate for governor lost. He Trump went against a lot of the Republican officials in Nebraska, saying you got to support my candidate. Well, Nebraska Republicans did not support his candidate. They supported another candidate who is well qualified and a very good person. And if he`s elected, he`ll make a good governor.
This is happening in other states where his candidates for these high offices are losing. But yes, he`s threatened everybody. That hurts the Republican Party. But in a way, it leaves my thinking it helps the Republican Party, because the Republican Party will come back.
No one person should ever govern a party. That`s not the point of political parties. Political parties must be diverse, have different opinions. That`s healthy, that`s American. You want that. I`ve never known anybody in my life or any party or entity institution that has all the answers, and everybody else is wrong.
RUHLE: Then, sir, in some weird way, is this working out best for those Republicans who are still Republicans, but they want to take the party back and remove Trump from it? Are they the ones who are actually going to get what they want the most here?
HAGEL: Well, I don`t know if I phrase it that way. I think what they will get, and I`ve already noted, at least my thinking on this, is a Republican party that`s flexible, that doesn`t push people out that doesn`t believe absolutely in one piece of a Republican Party, the philosophy of a political party. I think you`ll see that happen over the next few years because of this.
RUHLE: Secretary Hagel, thank you so much for joining us tonight and sharing all your insights. I appreciate it.
Coming up, this weekend`s bipartisan breakthrough on gun reform ends a nearly decade long stalemate in Congress, but there is a lot more that needs to be done. We`ll get right into that when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:39:23]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX): To be clear, we agreed on a press statement, a set of principles that was very important and hard fought. But now comes the even more difficult task of trying to agree on legislative text to actually implement those principles. And that`s what we`re working on this week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: While the text of the new gun legislation has not yet been finalized, lawmakers say the framework includes funding for red flag laws enhanced background checks, closing the boyfriend loophole, the federal ban on gun trafficking and funding for mental health and school safety, what it will not include is a federal ban on assault weapons or an increase in the minimum wage to purchase a semi-automatic rifle.
[23:40:10]
Majority Leader Chuck Schumer has said he will put the bill on the floor for a vote as soon as possible. So let`s discuss. With us tonight Jason Johnson, politics and journalism professor at Morgan State University. He is also a friend of our show and an MSNBC political contributor. And Yamiche Alcindor, NBC News Washington correspondent and moderator of Washington Week on PBS.
Jason, when you look at this breakthrough, is it a good start? Or is it so thin, that nobody deserves to run a victory lap here?
JASON JOHNSON, THE GRIO CONTRIBUTOR: Unfortunately, the only people who can run a victory lap if this framework is where it stays are the Republicans, because if this bill gets passed, in the current discussion that we`re hearing, they get to take this off the table. They get to say in June of this year, with five, six months to go before the midterm, see, we did something about gun control. See, we did something about Uvalde. So all the other mass shootings that we`re likely to have between now on them, they will be able to wash their hands of it.
I don`t think this bill goes far enough. I think it`s a nice idea. But at the end of the day, I can still walk into a gun show this weekend, and a private dealer who may have 60 guns in their collection can still sell it to me without having to do a background check.
If there are not universal background checks, the Democratic Party should not agree to it. If you do not define every single person as selling a gun as a private citizen, being responsible for doing a background check, it`s not effective legislation.
So, the only person who gets anything out of this are Republicans if they want to wipe their hands, Democrats look like they`ve caved if this is where it stays.
RUHLE: Yamiche, you talk to Democrats every day. Do they see it that way? Because yes, if this thing gets passed, does it mean gun legislation is off the table? Or does it mean now we`re talking let`s do more? I`m pretty sure a few months ago there was nothing both parties were talking about together.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS WASHINGTON WEEK MODERATOR: In my conversations with Democrats, there are some people who definitely agree with Jason who say, This isn`t going far enough. They`re not happy with it. But the majority of the people that I`m hearing from say, this is a step in the right direction, look no further than AOC, who has said as long as it`s the baby step, that`s a real baby step that I will support it.
It also I think have to look at people like David Hogg, who literally survived a mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, who says again, this is a blueprint for the Senate to do more, but that he`s praising the fact that something is being done.
I was in Sandy Hook and covered the mass shooting there the worst school shooting in our nation`s history. I remember being a young reporter and thinking the world was going to change and there was radio silence, nothing could get through Congress, nothing could get through the Senate.
So the fact that these conversations are even happening, the fact that, that you have Republicans even saying that they want to change some sort of access to the way that we access guns tells me that while obviously there is an urgency here, there are some lawmakers who are feeling that even if it`s for political reasons, or for actual genuine reasons of being worried about gun violence, that they want to act and do something.
So, Democrats I talk to you really do seem as though they`re at least a little bit happy about the fact that this is being moved. And of course, they want to see more.
RUHLE: How much does it is it going to cost? And who`s going to pay for it, Yamiche?
ALCINDOR: That`s a critical question that I spent some of this wild day asking about. I was told by sources along with our NBC News, Josh Letterman, we both were told that it`s between $15 billion and $20 billion, that`s billion with a B dollars so much it`s going to cost.
Now there is an aide, there was an aide for Senator John Cornyn, who was one of the lead Republican senator and negotiate — the negotiators who`s saying that that`s probably not going to be what they believe to be the final number or the final cost. But we have to, of course, go for what do Republicans talk of as cost because the senator saying that — there aren`t going to be new money here, there`s going to be new appropriated money.
But what I`m talking to senators, they say this is still going ot be real money, and they`re looking at possibly a Medicare rebate. There`s some other conversations about using funds that were appropriated for COVID, or infrastructure to do this.
I was also told that the biggest part of this bill is going to be the mental health services, most of the money is going to go to that there. Also, it`s about maybe up to a billion dollars for states to have incentives to implement red flag laws, which would stop some people who were seen as a danger to themselves and others from getting guns.
RUHLE: I want to talk about a different kind of danger. Jason, yesterday, at a pride event in the state of Idaho, police arrested dozens of white supremacist from a whole bunch of states who are allegedly planning to riot How worried are you about this kind of political violence that`s on the rise?
JOHNSON: Massively worried, and I`ll say this as somebody who attended my first Pride festival this weekend, I had friends in town and I was taken around for the whole experience. And it was so upsetting to me how many people there talked about how worried they were to be at a Pride festival, that in the wake of the violence and the mass shootings we`ve seen in this country, in the wake of what happened in Idaho people were afraid rather than celebrating, they were living in fear.
[23:45:12]
They were talking about what happened at the Pulse nightclub several years ago, this rise and political violence that we have seen in this country that continues to go unchecked, which is connected to people`s access to guns is exactly why you see what we saw in Idaho.
And frankly, catching 31 guys who look like they`re about to engage in terrorist activity that doesn`t make me feel comfortable, that means they got caught one U-Haul. How many other people are planning these exact kinds of violent acts around this country all the time, and they`re going to be able to walk away because they technically didn`t kill somebody this time.
We have to have a much more aggressive attitude about white domestic terrorism in this country. Otherwise we`re going to lose what little country we have left.
RUHLE: All right then, on that very scary note, we`re going to leave it there but Please come back soon. Jason Johnson, Yamiche Alncidor. When we come back, everything you need to know to make sense of the plunging stock market and surging inflation when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:50:53]
RUHLE: Let`s talk about your bottom line. It was a rough, rough clothes for Wall Street this afternoon. And that only adds to our economic anxiety. Think about this, all three major U.S. indexes posted huge losses today, the S&P was down more than 20 percent from its peak. And that means we are officially entering a bear market.
And let`s say you`re not an investor, you`re an American consumer. Well guess what? The news there isn`t much better. For the first time gas prices are now averaging over five bucks a gallon. That`s a lot of money.
One estimate, Mark Zandi, he`s now saying that households are now spending about $160 more on gas a month than they were a year ago. And if you think gas prices are up, other things are up as well. Food prices, it seems like everything out there, we`re buying costs more. So why? We`ve got to look at what`s happening around the world.
The war in Ukraine is obviously having a huge impact on gas prices. But they`re also a really big exporter of grains, wheats, that`s causing food prices to go up. But what`s important to remember it`s causing prices to go up around the world. We also still have supply chain issues, because China has been shut down, that impacts the supply chain. And this inflation that we`re dealing with, other countries are dealing with it as well, Canada, Mexico, Europe around the world.
But for the American consumer out there, they don`t necessarily care that prices are high around the world. They care that it matters here. But there are bright spots in the economy. Our jobs market is still very strong, our wages are up. And despite prices being higher, we are still seeing people spending.
In fact, we`re expecting going into this summer, very high demand for travel people flying people driving, we might not like spending these higher prices, but we`re willing to do it. And right now all the focus is on the Federal Reserve. Because when we could say what is the President doing, he`s not doing much because he can`t, it`s about the Federal Reserve. They`re going to raise interest rates this week, possibly half a percentage point.
And here`s why this matters. If they raise rates too quickly, well, that could dip us into recession. And if they don`t do it enough, prices could keep rising and rising, and inflation hurts.
But what`s also important to remember as we`re dealing with this, this can`t be solved overnight. And Republicans right now are using inflation to push people to the polls, because it`s really hard for us.
So I asked you just like we`re asking the President and this administration, what are you doing that inflation? Well, Republicans say it`s the number one issue for the American people, ask them if they win in November, what are they going to do?
Coming up. Why today`s hearings from the January 6 committee are so important. We`re going to take a look back on how quickly things went off the rails after the 2020 election when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:57:40]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The only way they can take this election away from us is if this is a rigged election, we`re going to win this election. We`re going to win this election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Last thing before we go tonight, the big, big lie. In that last clip from the 2020 Republican National Convention, it seems as if Trump was giving us a preview of what was to come. The January 6 committee revealed it was made very clear to Trump in the days after the election, that he had been defeated. He lost.
Here`s a reminder of what we heard from Trump and his big lie accomplices back in November of 2020, after he was told he lost.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: This is a fraud on the American public. This is an embarrassment to our country. We were getting ready to win this election. Frankly, we did win this election.
If you count the legal votes, I easily win. If you count the illegal votes, they can try to steal the election from us.
DONALD TRUMP JR., POLITICAL ACTIVIST: And it`s not just in Georgia. When I look at Philadelphia, I mean, think about they`re putting up pizza boxes on windows to prevent people from watching.
RUDY GIULIANI, FMR. TRUMP PERSONAL ATTORNEY: This is a gross miscarriage of the process that would assure that these ballots are not fraudulent. It`s a fraud and absolute fraud.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was called for Joe Biden.
GIULIANI: Who was call by?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the networks.
GIULIANI: Oh my goodness, all the networks. Wow. All the networks.
SIDNEY POWELL, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: What we are really dealing with here and uncovering more by the day is the massive influence of communists money through Venezuela, Cuba and likely China in the interference with our elections.
GIULIANI: There was a plan from a centralized place to execute these various acts of voter fraud.
POWELL: President Trump won by a landslide. We are going to prove it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[00:00:03]
RUHLE: Or maybe the fraud is the big lie. Maybe the big lie is the fraud and the embarrassment that we`re facing. I want to share what Trump`s own attorney general thinks about all of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: Made it clear, I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff, which I told the President it was bullshit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Well, there you have it. And on that slightly crude note, I wish you all a very good night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I will see you at the end of tomorrow.