Updated
Summary
1/6 panel makes case against Trump. U.S. inflation surges to 40-year high. 1/6 panel to resume public hearing next week. 1/6 panel focuses on role of far-right groups. 1/6 panel, Kushner dismissed WH resignation threats. Students march in D.C. demanding action on guns. Jan. 6th hearing in historical context. Henry Winkler talks “Barry” Season 3.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And that`s tonight`s “LAST WORD,” THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
ALICIA MENENDEZ, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, fallout from an eye opening hearing the new evidence of the coordinated and violent attempt to overturn a free and fair election laid out in primetime. What to watch for next?
Then a new round of demonstrations in D.C. and across the country, calling for an end to gun violence. We`ll ask a survivor of a school shooting. She hopes these new marches will accomplish.
Plus, he has been entertaining TV audiences for generations. Stephanie Ruhle goes one-on-one with the one and two only Henry Winkler as THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Friday night.
MENENDEZ: Good evening, I`m Alicia Menendez in for Stephanie Ruhle. And we are still sifting through the many new revelations from last night`s January 6`s hearing. The primetime event that attracted millions of viewers. And that hearing, the panel said it`s prepared to tell Americans the story of how Donald Trump “summoned to the mob, assembled the mob, and lit the flame of this attack.” And the committee says there is much more to come. Three more hearings are already lined up next week.
On Monday, the panel will examine the lies that led to the attack. The former Fox News political editor who ran the election desks that was first to call Arizona for Joe Biden will testify. He has been sharply critical of his former Fox colleagues coverage of the election and Trump`s lies about it afterward. Wednesday, the country will get to hear from former acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen. That hearing will be focused on Trump`s efforts to replace him with an official that supported his false voter fraud claims. And on Thursday, the hearing will focus on Trump`s efforts to pressure Mike Pence to refuse to certify the 2020 election.
Today, Chairman Bennie Thompson said the committee has the goods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON, (D) MISSISSIPPI JAN.6 SELECT COMMITTEE CHAIR: Everything we present, we will be able to verify if there`s anyone who disagrees with what we present. All they have to do is come before the committee, take a — we`ll swear them, put them under oath, and they can talk. That`s from the President on down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: About 20 million people in the U.S. tuned into last night`s hearings. That is according to early data from Nielsen. We`re also following new reporting from the Washington Post. The paper reports, it obtained emails that show Ginni Thomas, wife of Justice Clarence Thomas pressed 29 Republican state lawmakers in Arizona to set aside Joe Biden`s popular vote victory and choose presidential electors. She does not respond to requests for comment from the Washington Post. Most points out Ginni Thomas has long insisted she and her husband operate in separate professional lanes.
Meanwhile, Wall Street ended the day 880 points lower after a new report showed prices surging at the fastest pace in 40 years. President Biden was in L.A. today defending his administration`s efforts to deal with inflation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, (D) U.S. PRESIDENT: I understand Americans are anxious, and they`re anxious with good reason. I was raised in a household when the price of gasoline rose precipitously, it was the discussion at the table. It made a difference when food prices went up.
But we`ve never seen anything like Putin`s tax on both food and gas. Americans should also understand our economy has unique strengths that we can build on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: And with that, let`s bring in our leadoff panel, Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for The New York Times. Clint Watts, West Point Graduate, Army Veteran, former FBI Special Agent and a Distinguished Research Fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute. And Barbara McQuade, a Veteran Federal Prosecutor, former U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan. She worked with the DOJ during the Biden transition. She is a Professor at the University of Michigan`s Law School.
It is good to see you all, Peter, your paper new reporting tonight on cabinet discussions about using the 25th Amendment to remove Trump. What more can you tell us?
PETER BAKER, THE NEW YORK TIMES CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that`s one of the things, of course, Liz Cheney talked about at the hearing last night. She said, the members of Trump`s cabinet did discuss using the 25th Amendment to remove Trump in the aftermath of the January 6 election. But, you know, what they discover was the Vice President Pence even though he had broken with the president overusing his power as vice president and the president Senate to reverse the election wasn`t willing to go along with removing the president from office to the 25th Amendment.
And without the Vice President, the 25th Amendment doesn`t work, with the private, the member of wires, is the Vice President and a majority of the cabinet to vote that a president is unable to carry out the duties of his office, a disability exists and that was not going to happen as long as Mike Pence wasn`t going to do it.
[23:05:10]
So you had secretaries like Betsy DeVos, the Education Secretary checkout with Donald Trump, with — sorry, with Mike Pence when he was going to do it when she discovered he wasn`t — she went ahead and resigned. Elaine Chao resigned, the Commerce Secretary, Transportation Secretary after January 6. Once the Vice President said he wasn`t going to get involved, that was the end of that discussion. But it was rather striking to see how far this conversation went in the aftermath of that attack on the Capitol.
MENENDEZ: Barb, I want your thoughts about this conversation, about the 25th Amendment. But I also wanted to looking forward to next week, how important is Jeffrey Rosen as a witness?
BARBARA MCQUADE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yeah, well, first on this 25th Amendment issue, I think it just shows how deeply disturbed people were right in the aftermath of January 6, and how they allowed that concern to dissipate over time, which, you know, suggest that political forces took over, over their genuine concern for the country as time went on.
Speaking about next week, though, I think that the testimony that I`m really going to be watching is Wednesday`s hearing with Jeffrey Rosen, as you mentioned. You know, he was the acting Attorney General of the United States at the time. And I think what he will testify too, is what he has already told the Senate Judiciary Committee about this episode, about the relentless pressure that he received from Donald Trump and the White House to push this idea that there was fraud in the election. At one point they were told to just say there is fraud and leave the rest to me, and Republicans in Congress, and that they were consistently applying this pressure to the point that ultimately, what they wanted to do is to replace Jeffrey Rosen, with another department of justice official Jeffrey Clark, who was willing to play ball. In fact, he drafted a letter to send out to state legislatures, saying that the Justice Department had found irregularities in the election and suggesting that they reconvene their state legislatures to select alternate slates of electors, I mean, a really astonishing and horrifying scenario.
To their great credit, Jeffrey Rosen and Richard Donoghue stood fast threatened to resign and asked, if they follow through on this plan and get Trump to back down. Now, that doesn`t mean he backed down from the whole plan, he just pivoted to a different plan. But at least I think we`re going to hear some really dramatic testimony about what happened at the Justice Department.
MENENDEZ: Clint, speaking part of that plan, the committee focused a lot on the role that far right groups like the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys played in relation to Trump. Here is some of the evidence, just some of the evidence they presented.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name. Go ahead, who would you like me to condemn?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White supremacist and Proud Boys.
TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and standby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After he made this comment, Enrique Tarrio, then Chairman of the Proud Boys set on parlor, standing by sir. During our investigation, we learned that this comment during the presidential debate actually led to an increase in membership from the Proud Boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you say that Proud Boys numbers increased after the stand back, standby comment?
ENRIQUE TARRIO, PROUD BOYS LEADER: Exponentially, I`d say tripled probably.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the potential for a lot more eventually.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you ever sell any stand back and standby merchandise?
TARRIO: One of the vendors on my page actually beat me to it, but I wish I would have — I wish I would have made a stand back standby shirt.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: So you see, Clint, they`re the cause and effect that they are trying to draw, did any of what we learned last night surprise you?
CLINT WATTS, FORMER COUNTER TERRORISM DIVISION FORMER CONSULTANT: I don`t think any of it was surprising. But I did like how they connected the dots. I thought the production was very well done. It was very clear and straightforward to the public. I think the key thing is that you`ve had two groups, both of which have been charged with seditious conspiracy now, both participate in conspiracies secret plans to do an unlawful act that`s very straightforward. And all the evidence is already out there. They either filmed themselves or they are seen and filmed. That showed up in terms of this production last night. They both met in the garage the night before. They both talked about what they plan to do, think with the case of the Oath Keepers, they were more dangerous in some ways, because they were talking about bringing weapons into the Capitol. They had cache them outside the capitol, and they were also organizing his bodyguards separately with the Proud Boys.
Their plan, I think it was remarkable. And I think was, Barbara, actually the tweeted out last night, they never even went to the rally. They were headed to the Capitol from the outset. When you look at the communications that are in the indictments, it was very clear. They had a plan for what they were going to do at the Capitol. And their goal was to breach it and they celebrated it. It`s all very much out in the open.
So when I look at it across the board, I think — you know, 18 months later, when you watch in the open space and you see what`s happening with militia groups, two things have really happened. A large number of those people that joined up in those two groups have seen the downward pressure these indictments, you`re seeing them leave the groups or chapters that`s banned. There is a subtle, more serious, more violent element in both of these groups that as manifested, that is still committed to this cause and that`s what I`m worried about heading into the midterms and 2022. It won`t be an insurrection at the nation`s Capital via the local level that I`m much more worried about.
[23:10:10]
MENENDEZ: Right, let me ask you what when you say that they are dispersing, I mean, are they leaving altogether? Or are they going to other more underground groups?
WATTS: Some of both, Alicia, you`ll see some chapters literally just say this isn`t what we signed up for, especially with the Proud Boys, some chapters, you`ll see them post and say, hey, we`re drinking club. We`re not really into this. Others, though, are renaming and just studying terrorism over the last 20 years, I can tell you, when you see groups renaming, and turning into smaller, more violent cells that head underground, that closer communications are organized offline, you`ve got a dangerous scenario that can be problematic over time, we`ve seen younger individuals in particular, organized and it`s a mix of both militia, violent extremism and extremist racial extremist groups organizing in a much more deliberate way at times. So it`s something we have to keep an eye on, particularly in this period where we`re seeing more mass shootings really cropped up over the last few weeks and months.
MENENDEZ: Barb, Clint referenced your tweet, which I think we all saw, talk to me, when we talk about the Proud Boys, what stuck out to you most?
MCQUADE: Yeah, one of the things I heard last night that it was new to me, and you know, maybe it was there in the seditious conspiracy indictments, but it was at least a fact I had overlooked before. And that was the testimony of this documentary filmmaker who talked about when he arrived there on January 6, he was quite surprised to see the group had not toward the ellipse where Donald Trump was organizing this big rally, but to go in the other direction toward the Capitol at about 10 a.m. Long before Donald Trump called for the group to march down to the Capitol, that`s where they were headed. And he was curious about that. He also mentioned that there were way more Proud Boys than he ever expected. He estimated 250 to 300 of them, and that they all walked down to the Capitol, they surveilled it, they look for weaknesses for entry points, and then they breached it.
And I can`t help but wonder Bennie Thompson says they`re going to tie this together. Was this a concerted plan? You know, I think initially there has been a thought that a lot of what happened at the Capitol was just a boisterous crowd that got a little out of hand. We know that these Oath Keepers and Proud Boys have been charged with seditious conspiracy and allegations that their role in it was planned. But I wonder to what extent now, it was planned with the Trump campaign. We haven`t heard that evidence directly yet. But was their plan that the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers go down first and breach the Capitol. And then all of the protesters who were just showing up to listen to Donald Trump would march down at his command and follow them inside the doors to make sure that that certification didn`t take place. So that`s the piece of evidence that I`ll be listening for in the coming hearings.
MENENDEZ: See if they`re able to tie it all together.
Peter, earlier this week, you reported on how Kushner washed his hands of Trump before January 6. And there was reporting today that Kushner was still attending post-election strategy meetings, could the committee have even more intel on the role Kushner may have played?
BAKER: Well, I think they do. They`ve had testimony — hours of testimony from him that we haven`t seen yet. They`ve only played us that one clip last night where he sort of cavalierly dismissed the White House lawyers who are going to resign and are protesting, they will just whining in his view, they have a lot more presumably on tape that they could show us if they choose to.
I think what`s really fascinating about his role is the fact that he chose not to basically fight the conspiracy theorists like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell and those forth. He didn`t believe that the election was stolen. That`s where he told people anyway, you think that there were anything that would have changed the outcome. He didn`t do anything about it. He simply absented himself. Yes, he went to some meetings at first. But then basically, once he understood that Rudy Giuliani was going to be in charge and he wasn`t, he told the President while I`m out, basically head to the Middle East to work on diplomacy, to meet people who would later become helpful to him in business. He starts planning as moved to Miami with his wife. They buy a $37 million mansion, start planning where they`re going to move their kids. And he absence himself from this fight. The fight of the Trump presidency, whether they`re going to continue to press this case of a stolen election or not, he decides to essentially absent himself, and that`s a really key thing. How did this happen? How was the President, you know, pushed so hard to overturn a democratic election? In part, it was because he was being advised by people like Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell and not by people who knew, and either did tell him or didn`t tell him that the election wasn`t stolen.
MENENDEZ: Now, Barbara, you have the Washington Post reporting that Ginni Thomas pressed 29 lawmakers in Arizona to set aside Biden`s victory and choose presidential electors, what`s going on here?
MCQUADE: Well, I don`t know. But it certainly raises a lot of questions. I think that to the extent she knows that this is not a legitimate electoral victory, that there is some sense there that perhaps she needs to be investigated for fraud herself. And of course, the reason we care so much about the conduct of Ginni Thomas is being because her husband is a Supreme Court justice. Now people are certainly entitled to have separate careers from their spouses, people do it all the time and they sometimes act in conflict with each other.
[23:15:09]
But to the extent Clarence Thomas is going to be called upon to make decisions about what happened on January 6, and with this election, there is a real potential conflict of interest here. And in fact, it may be that he has already decided a case where there was some potential conflict. The decision he made about the production of documents from the National Archives, involving White House papers to the congressional committee, we now know contained text messages between Ginni Thomas and Mark Meadows.
And so to the extent he was trying to conceal information and might have been embarrassing to a member of his household, his wife, I think, is at least an apparent conflict of interest, if not a genuine one. And so I think in hearings to come, there is going to be some real scrutiny about whether Clarence Thomas ought to be recusing himself from some of these decisions.
MENENDEZ: Peter, pivoting to the president to this White House, you saw the inflation numbers today, the Dow closed down nearly 3%. How is the White House reacting?
BAKER: Well, I think they`re a little bit surprised by this, they had hoped that inflation had begun to peak and would begin to start trailing downward before the midterm elections this fall, that`s obviously not the case, at least as of this month, it may turn out that it will be later but at the moment, it`s not plateauing. It`s going up, and you saw the impact on the markets. And you see the impact on the politics, we can talk a lot about January 6, it`s certainly an important episode, arguably, one of the most important things happen in America in the last few years. But what a lot of Americans are feeling right now is what they`re seeing in terms of their prices of groceries and the prices of everyday goods, that they buy, prices at the gas pump that matters to them in a more visceral way, in some ways than the hearings they may be seeing on television. And that`s why the White House is I think so concerned about it, because it`s obviously going to continue to pull down his approval ratings at a time when his party faces a very, very tough midterm election ahead.
MENENDEZ: Clint, I`ve only got about 30 seconds left. But I do want to know what you`re looking forward to next week.
WATTS: I really want to see what the connections are between the violent groups that we`re talking about, Proud Boys and Oath Keepers with anybody in the White House. So that`s the key point. I didn`t really hear too much that I hadn`t already known about the extremists that were there on that day. They were the ones that really broke the logjam and got into the building, which causes the flood into the building. But I want to know about the coordination, I think between anybody in the White House, anybody in Congress and those groups in particular that brought the violence in that day.
MENENDEZ: Peter Baker, Clint Watts and Barbara McQuade, thank you all so much.
Coming up, march for our lives returns to Washington. We`ll talk to a student who recently survived a school shooting about the message she`s sending to Congress tomorrow.
And later historian, Michael Beschloss is here on the stunning revelations last night`s January 6 theory. The threats that remain to democracy and why this moment in history is different. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a Friday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:22:39]
MENENDEZ: Thousands of people are expected to begin gathering just a few hours from now to rally against gun violence in March for our lives protests all across this country. The biggest crowd is expected in Washington. And their message is one we`ve heard before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m here for every person that has died at the hands of gun violence. And for the many more whose lives were irreparably changed because of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When politicians send their thoughts and prayers with no action, we say, no more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My friends and I might still be 11 and we might still be in elementary school but we know, we know life isn`t equal for everyone and we know what is right and wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Politicians either represent the people or get out. Stand for us or beware the voters are coming.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fight for your lives before it`s someone else`s job.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: That was back in March 2018, satellite marches are also planned for tomorrow in New York, Chicago, Las Vegas and in dozens of smaller towns and cities.
With us tonight, Zoe Touray, a survivor of a school shooting at Oxford High School just outside of Detroit. Back in November, sadly, four of her classmates were killed. So he was invited to Washington to join in tomorrow`s rally. Zoe, thank you so much for being here, especially because I know tomorrow is a big day for you. How are you feeling?
ZOE TOURAY, SURVIVOR OF OXFORD HIGH SCHOOL SHOOTING: Really excited. Definitely super excited to get some change happening tomorrow. Kind of tired but really ready for it.
MENENDEZ: You are going to power through, you are young. Why is it so important then for you to be there tomorrow, Zoe?
TOURAY: Like you`re saying before, just going to Oxford and losing four of my classmates, it`s really important for me to go to almost avenge them in a way but also to make sure this doesn`t happen to any other kid and so they don`t lose like they`re just in their medicine. They`re one of their – – take their close friends or to go through anything that I went through.
MENENDEZ: Yeah, I see all of that on your sweatshirt. You graduated last month, just days before the tragedy in Uvalde, Texas. Two of your classmates who died back in November they were supposed to graduate with you and their parents, accepted their diplomas. Can you just talk to me about what that moment was like?
[23:25:02]
TOURAY: It was definitely very heavy — like it was a heavy heart feeling to not be able to graduate with Jefferson and Madison. But it was also very heartwarming to see that their parents and their families could accept those gifts in that way to honor them. So we did obviously miss them. But it was a really great feeling to be able to offer them something and honor them in a way.
MENENDEZ: Can you tell me, Zoe, how your school came together after last November. Any advice you have for other communities, we`re dealing with gun violence?
TOURAY: The way Oxford came together was honestly, amazing. I did not expect to come together like that, because I live in a different area. So like coming out to Oxford, just seeing us come so close after that was amazing. But for any other communities, honestly, I would say one, like get involved, because it would be an awesome thing if we could like in this and get laws passed and things like that, but also to take care of like themselves. Mentally, physically, emotionally, it`s really hard to get lost in what you believe in to get lost in the grief. So to make sure you`re taking care of yourself and to take care of your community too.
MENENDEZ: Yeah, we`ve heard a lot from advocates about the amount of work and support that is needed for survivors long after the cameras leave long after the story fades from national headlines, you know, Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy, give an update this afternoon on the gun legislation talks that are now underway. I want you to take a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, (D) CONNECTICUT: Well, I`m interested in compromise, I`m not interested in just checking a box, I`m not interested in doing something unless that something is going to save lives, unless that`s something is going to be impactful and meaningful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: Zoe, you`re 18, so there are lots of other students who come before you, you are still waiting for a solution that is impactful, and meaningful. Do you think this time is different?
TOURAY: I do. I do think that this time is significantly different. When I was younger, or when a lot of the other, you know, shootings happen, or a lot of the other events happen. I was little too young to remember. But with this time, I`ve seen so much political momentum on both sides of the aisle with Democrats, Republicans. And just the fact that we`re willing to compromise someone to come together and figure out a way to get things done. It`s a very significant change that I think will make things happen for the better.
MENENDEZ: Zoe, I`m often reminded by other young advocates in your movement that while we are very quick to call you are brave, you shouldn`t have to be brave, you should not have been through what you have been through that brings you here today. For people who are watching this from the sidelines who may not have yet chosen to use your voice, what is your message to them?
TOURAY: Well, for one, I would definitely say to text march to 954954. It`s a great way to get involved if you can, but also just kind of like circling back to make sure you take care of yourself so you decide to get involved because even being in these meetings and doing different things that we`re doing it can be a little difficult. So make sure that you`re ready for it. Take a deep breath and just get active.
MENENDEZ: Zoe Touray, I am so grateful to you for being here with us tonight. I hope you got some rest before tomorrow.
Coming up, today, Joe Biden called it one of the darkest chapters in our nation`s history. Presidential historian Michael Beschloss helps put the event that drew 20 million viewers last night into context when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:33:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: The insurrection on January 6, one of the darkest chapters in our nation`s history, a brutal assault on our democracy, brutal attack on law enforcement, some losing their lives. And we heard about it last night again. It`s important to American people understand what truly happened. And to understand that the same forces that led January 6 remain at work today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: The President was in Los Angeles today to talk about the soaring inflation problem. But he began with that warning about the future of our democracy.
With us tonight, celebrated author and presidential historian Michael Beschloss. Michael, you have the President calling inflation his top economic priority, certainly a priority for American families, your thoughts on your decision to acknowledge this ongoing investigation?
MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, NBC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: First of all, wonderful to see you as always, Alicia. I think he was absolutely right. You know, you can think of all the things that presidents have done bad in life, you know, they get us into wars that they shouldn`t have people have died as a result of bad decisions. Some of them have wrecked the economy. That doesn`t come anywhere close to what happened on the sixth of January.
Increasingly, we`re finding out, thanks largely to the January 6 committee that Donald Trump was behind it effort to destroy our democracy and take it away. Joe Biden was elected president in November, we elected him, we had the right to have Joe Biden serve whether you voted for him or not. Donald Trump on the sixth of January by instigating this attack on Congress and the Capitol tried to take that away from us. We could have been in a situation if that had succeeded on that day, where we would be living under a president who had installed himself who was not elected, who is ruling by fiat, maybe even with the help of martial law that`s how much was at stake, unless we find out what happened we`re going to be in danger of having that happen again.
[23:35:09]
MENENDEZ: And Michael, to put this in historical context, you call January 6, a plot against American democracy just as great as that by John Wilkes Booth and his co-conspirators against Lincoln back in 1865.
BESCHLOSS: Right.
MENENDEZ: Explain to me what you mean by that?
BESCHLOSS: Well, John Wilkes Booth, as you will know, from history, was an actor who was a huge Confederate sympathizer. He was angry that the South had lost the war in April of 1865, and so he and co-conspirators had a plan to assassinate Lincoln, assassinate the Secretary of State, you know, assassinate other key figures in Washington, and try to steal the victory that they could not win for the Confederacy on the battlefield. It failed. But there`s a difference, John Wilkes Booth was a terrible man and evil man, Donald Trump was president, the United States, we have not seen anything like this before in our history.
MENENDEZ: Right, because it`s about the proximity to power, the position of power itself.
BESCHLOSS: True.
MENENDEZ: You know, I am curious, after watching everything we watched last night, what disturbs you most?
BESCHLOSS: The fact that we came so close to losing our democracy, we came very close, I think it is fair to say and we`ll know more in the next few days, to seeing a vice president of United States hanged, a speaker of the House who might have been assassinated or held hostage, same with other key members of Congress, we came very close to not only losing the presidency, but losing our democratic rights, it could happen again.
MENENDEZ: And what are you hoping to learn in the hearings that are still to come?
BESCHLOSS: I`d like to know who did this. I`d like to make sure that they are identified and punished. And then maybe it`s not too much to hope for that we get some kind of laws that increase the possibility that this will not ever happen again. That`s what happened after Watergate, because Democrats who are in the majority said, we can`t allow another Nixon to do what he did. And at the same time, Republicans who had been for Nixon felt conscience stricken to show, you know, although this was our Republican President, we`re trying to show you that we are not in favor of the horrible things he did. So unfortunately, option number — option number two is not present. And unless you`ve got a Congress that`s willing to do that, we`re going to be in danger of having another attack like the sixth of January.
MENENDEZ: Michael, I would never deign to teach you American history. So as you well know, in comparison — the comparison to Watergate is fraught for two reasons. One, because this is a very different Republican Party and a very different political landscape. And it also is a completely different media environment, right? And so I wonder you saw the ratings 20 million people watching last night, is that sustainable?
BESCHLOSS: It`s going to be much more hard than it was in 1973. And for John Dean this month 1973, Nixon`s old counsel, was the first one to go before the Watergate Senate Committee on TV and say, the President was at the center of the cover up. He has done grave things that, as it turned out, may make him impeachable, and liable to be thrown out of office. A lot of people were on the fence, even Republicans who loved Nixon, they said, we love Nixon for law and order and for his conservatism, this is not conservative. This is radical and revolutionary.
Now we`re in a situation where perhaps a third of the country that loves Donald Trump will see this. And even though I think this is even more revolutionary, and more dangerous than anything that Richard Nixon did, many of them will say, we love Donald Trump, we won`t hear anything bad about him. And we`re in a media environment where there are a lot of conservative media organizations who were willing to push the lie that Donald Trump did not do anything wrong.
MENENDEZ: You know, I`m so struck by the fact that in one week`s time, we will have had this first hearing, and then tomorrow you will have 1000s of people, led by young people matching against gun violence, just the latest example of general unrest, is there a historical parallel for this moment, for this kind of social upheaval?
BESCHLOSS: Well, I think something that Robert Kennedy once said, and that is, he said, it is not enough to allow dissent, we must demand. He said the critic is as much of a patriot as someone who supports a president or supports what members of Congress do. So this is only a democracy if we were allowed to self-correct and say what people in power are doing wrong. If we lose a democracy, if we have an authoritarian leader, I guarantee that those voices will be stilled, media organizations, in countries like that are not even allowed to publish your broadcast that could have happened had January 6 succeeded.
[23:40:08]
MENENDEZ: Michael Beschloss, I do not know what I did right to earn your company on a Friday night but thank you so much for being with us.
BESCHLOSS: Oh thanks, love being together.
MENENDEZ: Same.
BESCHLOSS: Thank you so much.
MENENDEZ: I know.
Coming up, speaking out for good causes ever since his biker jacket Happy Days, Stephanie Ruhle goes one on one with Henry Winkler when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:45:11]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY WINKLER: Oh, the sacrifices I make for you. All right in, where surprise is coming. Hey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: We`ve known and loved him by so many names over the decades. Back in the 70s, Henry Winkler was the iconic Arthur Fonzarelli aka Fonzie on Happy Days. Then there are the countless movies and TV shows parts like Coach Klein and The Waterboy and Dr. Saperstein in Parks and Rec. Today he is known as an acting teacher Gene Cousineau on HBO`s popular series, Barry. Stephanie got a chance to sit down with the legendary award winning actor, producer, director and author. Take a look.
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STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: I am your superfan. I`m so honored that you`re here. There`s so many things I want to talk about, but I have to start with Gene.
HENRY WINKLER, AWARD-WINNING ACTOR PRODUCER AND DIRECTOR: Okay.
RUHLE: OK, Gene. This character, he is a washed up, very vain, acting teacher and Bill Hader chose you for this part.
WINKLER: Yes.
RUHLE: What do you think about that?
WINKLER: It was an amazing thing, because I got a call as I was leaving in a state planning meeting, which I didn`t understand at all. And they said, your honor —
RUHLE: You didn`t know what estate planning is?
WINKLER: I knew what it was.
RUHLE: What are you going to do with your money when you die?
WINKLER: Yes. I don`t know. And then I got a call at the Bill Hader. Bill Hader wanted to meet me for an HBO project. And here we are, finishing the third season this coming Sunday.
RUHLE: What amazes me not just about this character, it`s as though every generation knows you as a different character. I didn`t even mention Barry, the defense attorney on Arrested Development.
WINKLER: Yes, right.
RUHLE: Each of these characters are so different. But these shows, these shows have cult like followings.
WINKLER: Right.
RUHLE: Right.
WINKLER: You know why?
RUHLE: I kind of — why?
WINKLER: Because if it is not on the page, it`s not on the stage. And I have had the pleasure of working with extraordinary writers. And that`s where it begins, the writers the beginning and the end of whatever the entertainment is.
RUHLE: But so many of these characters that you`ve played aren`t the starring role, there`s supporting characters that you`ve made iconic, how?
WINKLER: I`m not sure.
RUHLE: Don`t give me that.
WINKLER: Honest to God. Look, I get a part. I`m so happy. I`m working. I am — and then they write and wonderful things that I get to do. I listened to the director, and I go on the journey. Honestly.
RUHLE: Do you have a favorite?
WINKLER: No, I don`t. Because everyone that I do, this is it. This is the best thing I`ve ever done. Oh, here it comes. Now I`m doing this. This is the best thing I`ve ever done.
RUHLE: Gratitude, gratitude —
WINKLER: Gratitude is the beginning and the end of my life.
RUHLE: Wow, explain that.
WINKLER: I believe in tenacity and gratitude. Gratitude allows you to get where you want to go. The tenacity gets you there.
RUHLE: Are you always a positive person?
WINKLER: I am mostly a positive person. I would say 98% of the time.
RUHLE: There are so many reasons why I wanted to talk to you today. But one of them that hits me personally, is dyslexia.
WINKLER: Right.
RUHLE: I`m dyslectic. Two of my children are, I didn`t know I was until I was an adult.
WINKLER: Right.
RUHLE: Tell me about your journey because you didn`t know when you were a student?
WINKLER: I did not. Now, they did not know that I was or anything about dyslexia at that time when I was growing up in the early 1880s.
RUHLE: What kind of student were you?
WINKLER: I was — I`m in the bottom 3% academically in America. But what I fault is, they didn`t see me, they didn`t see — oh, here`s a young fellow who`s got a problem. They just told me I was stupid.
RUHLE: Is that why you wrote this children`s book series because kid —
WINKLER: Believe it or not?
RUHLE: Right, you experienced it. Kids just think they`re dumb. Or I mean for me, I cheated and lied and tap dance my way through it. And then when I was diagnosed, I went oh, well, that`s what it always was.
WINKLER: You learn to negotiate your own learning challenge. And one out of six on this earth has a learning challenge. But I wrote the books and they were a time filler. I wasn`t getting hired as an actor. So somebody said write about your learning challenge for children. I couldn`t do that. I met Lynn Oliver. We`ve written 39 novels. So I learned you never say you can`t do something.
RUHLE: Then as a dyslexic how`d you handle scripts? Because there are so many undiagnosed Dyslexics, right? The mayor of New York City was just talking about 30% to 40% of people in prison in New York are undiagnosed dyslexic.
[23:50:00]
WINKLER: Absolutely. Do you know that they decide how many prison cells they`re going to build by tests from the third grade?
RUHLE: You`re kidding?
WINKLER: No.
RUHLE: So how big of a part is dyslexia in your identity?
WINKLER: It is everything. Because in the beginning, you think you`re stupid, you`re told you`re stupid, you buy that you`re stupid, and it takes the journey to fit. I woke up one day, but like, in my late 40s, I went, you know, I don`t think I am stupid. But it takes a while.
RUHLE: You keep — I`m not going to say reinventing your career because it doesn`t need reinventing. But you`ve taken so many turns.
WINKLER: Yes.
RUHLE: You`re a TikTok star. Your 12-year-old granddaughter produces your TikTok content.
WINKLER: Yes.
RUHLE: How did you decide I`m going to TikTok today?
WINKLER: Because my granddaughter India said, Papa, you have to be on TikTok. She then curated the music. I love to dance. So I figured out the steps. She put the camera where it needs to be. And the last one I made was for my six month old grand daughter and I wrote her the apple song.
RUHLE: Do you say yes to everything?
WINKLER: No. But I love my life. I love being on this earth.
RUHLE: Somebody said yes to you, 44 years ago?
WINKLER: Yes, Stacey.
RUHLE: Your wife, Stacey. What`s your secret to marriage?
WINKLER: I think will, I think listening, and I think accepting who is in front of you. Because there is no perfection. I am not a completely wonderful human being. But I try and Stacy accepts the try.
RUHLE: We`re talking about a lot of light. But you also talk about a decent amount of dark on Twitter. You talk about politics.
WINKLER: OK.
RUHLE: In 2012, you were on this network?
WINKLER: Yes.
RUHLE: And you were talking about some Republicans?
WINKLER: Yes.
RUHLE: And you were saying they got a problem. I mean, it`s outrageous kind of who they`re becoming, what they`re doing?
WINKLER: Right.
RUHLE: That was 10 years ago.
WINKLER: OK, but here it is. If everybody just wants to win, and they go toward autocracy, eventually it`s going to bite them in the tush. So it`s not a matter of saying, Oh, my God, you`re wrong. It`s saying that when the autocracy takes over, they don`t need your vote anymore. If they don`t need your vote, you will be kicked to the curb, it will come back and bite you as well.
RUHLE: So what do you think about the state of the world right now?
WINKLER: I think that we — I don`t know how yet, but I haven`t given up on listening to each other. That OK, though — you know what I hate when people say you`re an actor, you should just go and act, you shouldn`t have a point of view.
RUHLE: Shut up and dribble.
WINKLER: Really. So what about I`m an American first, I`m 76 first, my profession is an actor. I`m a thinking human being. I`ve got a point of view. I listen to the plumber. I listen to the candlestick maker, I listen to the — my butcher, why shouldn`t I have a point of view, so.
RUHLE: Then my last question.
WINKLER: OK.
RUHLE: What do you want your legacy to be? Because let me just say when we first opened this, and we showed Fonzie.
WINKLER: Yes.
RUHLE: There are a lot of people that have those iconic roles for many years ago, but they`re saying I`m sick of that role. I`m sick of, a, don`t bring it up. You smiled. I felt how excited you were to see the fans.
WINKLER: You know what, I had so much fan.
RUHLE: You love him?
WINKLER: I love him. You know how loyal Arthur is?
RUHLE: How?
WINKLER: He watches Barry. But the thing is that I had the greatest —
RUHLE: Arthur Fonzarelli watches Barry.
WINKLER: Unbelievable. And then gives me notes. Yes, but I —
RUHLE: Does Leather Tuscadero watch with him?
WINKLER: Leather. She`s still rocking all over Europe, Suzi Quatro.
RUHLE: I feel that.
WINKLER: Now, you can`t say you don`t talk about the dead. I wasn`t crazy by Pinky.
RUHLE: Whoa.
WINKLER: Yeah.
RUHLE: All right then we just broke some news there.
WINKLER: Yeah.
RUHLE: Henry Winkler, thank you, thank you, thank you for spending time with us. I am so, so grateful. And as a reminder, the season finale of Barry can be seen this Sunday on HBO, you do not want to miss it.
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MENENDEZ: And we`re going to have a few more notes about what you`ll need to know this weekend when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:59:10]
MENENDEZ: Our in depth coverage of the January 6 hearings continues throughout this weekend., including a special report hosted by my friend and colleague Ayman Mohyeldin tomorrow at 7 p.m. Eastern is going to join a panel of experts who will help analyze the newest evidence presented by the committee and look forward to the new details to come.
And on Monday, stay with MSNBC for day two of the January 6 hearings. Special coverage kicks off with Morning Joe followed by the full hearing. And on that note, I wish you a good night. I`m off this weekend. But be sure to catch my show, American Voices with guest host Julian Castro that is Saturday and Sunday at 6 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC.
From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late and have a good weekend.