Updated
Summary
Republicans are likely to be called as witnesses as DOJ investigates Trump`s actions in a criminal January 6 probe. Texas Democratic candidate for governor is interviewed on the Uvalde City Council unanimously passing resolution urging Republican Governor Greg Abbott to call a special session on guns, and on the reliability of the Texas electric grid. January 6th texts of Trump`s Homeland Security officials Chad Wolf and Ken Cuccinelli said to be missing.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Mehdi.
And Republicans really did that. It`s a great title for a weekly podcast. You should get under way with that right now.
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Sadly, it`s daily these days, Lawrence, hourly. We just can`t keep up.
O`DONNELL: You decide how often. But Republicans really did that, that`s a great title.
HASAN: It is. I will start working on that now.
O`DONNELL: OK, thank you, Mehdi. Thank you.
HASAN: Good night.
O`DONNELL: Well, Donald Trump is now in a fight with 9/11 families, as only Donald Trump can be. Donald Trump once told the lie that I immediately exposed, which made him immediately stop telling the lie, that he lost hundreds of friends on 9/11. That is possibly the most grotesque lie Donald Trump has ever told about himself in a personal way. He lost tons of friends on 9/11. He lost zero friends, zero friends on 9/11.
At the end of this hour, you will hear about what 9/11 families are saying about Donald Trump hosting a Saudi financed golf tournament at his golf club. Donald Trump taking money from the Saudis and defending 9/11 families in the process. That`s in the next hour.
As 76-year-old defendant Donald Trump looks at the final chapter of his life, he knows tonight that he is likely to spend the rest of his life as a defendant. He`s already a defendant multiple times in different kinds of civil lawsuits, including, most importantly, and most dangerously, to Donald Trump, lawsuits brought against defendant Trump by Capitol police officers who are suing Donald Trump for causing their injuries during the January 6th attack on the Capitol.
It could take years for those lawsuits to come to trial. The verdicts in those lawsuits could be appealed for years. If Donald Trump loses those lawsuits, he will not only lose years in the appeals process of the lawsuits, when the appeals process is exhausted, he will then spent years trying to avoid payment of what will surely be hundreds of millions of dollars in judgments that would leave Donald Trump penniless.
And what I just described could easily account for every day of Donald Trump`s life, between now and at least his 90th birthday if he reaches it.
And there`s the possibility of criminal defendant Donald Trump and District Attorney Fani Willis`s investigation in Georgia, and now, in the Justice Department`s criminal investigation of Donald Trump in Washington, D.C.
Since Donald Trump values nothing more than money, he actually has more to lose in the civil cases then in the criminal cases. The civil cases could leave Donald Trump penniless. The criminal cases could leave Donald Trump a convicted criminal, but, and I know this will disappoint many who have high hopes for this, but, as a former president, he would probably never hear the sound of being locked in a jail cell.
If Donald Trump is convicted of crimes, for practical purposes we as a former president of the United States, with a very large Secret Service detail that would have to go to prison with him to fulfill their legal obligation to protect him, Donald Trump would most likely be given some kind of suspended sentence and possibly a home confinement sentence in which the Secret Service detail would become in effect his jailers as well as his protectors.
But if Donald Trump were to lose the money, the pays for the home in which he would be confined as a convicted criminal for the rest of his life, losing that money would be much more painful for Donald Trump. And that is, why the most urgent legal matter facing Donald Trump`s lawyers tonight is their appeal to U.S. Court of Appeals in the District of Columbia, to throw out the lawsuits filed by capitol police officers against Donald Trump, saying that Donald Trump was simply doing his job as president when he spoke to a rally on January 6th and, quote, according to the lawyers, engaged in open discussion and debate about the integrity of the 2020 election.
Donald Trump`s lawyers have to convince the appeals court that the trial judge was wrong when he allowed the lawsuits to proceed because, according to Trump`s lawyers, President Trump`s January 6th rally speech — this is the original judges view of Donald Trump`s speech, according to that speech, it was akin to telling an excited mob that corn dealers starved the poor in front of the corn dealers home.
Judge Mehta said that Trump is not immune from the lawsuits because he was not acting in his official capacity as president during the January 6th rally when he told his followers to go to the Capitol and fight like hell. Judge Mehta said that Trump`s actions, don`t, quote we relate to his duties of faithfully executing the laws, conducting foreign affairs, commanding the armed forces, or managing the executive branch. They entirely concern his efforts to remain in office for second term. These are unofficial acts.
Donald Trump is much more where tonight about losing all of his money in the January 6th civil lawsuits after Kevin McCarthy is subpoenaed as a witness and tells the jury, in those lawsuits that Donald Trump admitted to him that Donald Trump was responsible for the attack on the Capitol, which is the very essence of these lawsuits.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what happened? He told me that he does have some responsibility for what happened. And he`d need to acknowledge that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Kevin McCarthy cannot avoid testifying in the civil cases about that discussion he had with Donald Trump after the January 6th attack on the Capitol, and Kevin McCarthy`s testimony alone, that story right there, can destroy the rest of Donald Trump`s life by convincing the jury to render follow Trump penniless.
And Kevin McCarthy has no legal options for resisting a subpoena to testify in that case, or to be criminal grand jury, that the Justice Department is using in Washington, D.C. to investigate Donald Trump. As I said last night, with each passing day, we will be hearing more about the witnesses for appearing before that grand jury, and, tonight CNN is reporting that a Trump Justice Department official is cooperating with the grand jury.
The former Justice Department staffer Ken Klukowski worked very closely at the that Justice Department with Jeffrey Clark was hoping to be named acting attorney general by Donald Trump so he could more effectively conspire with Donald Trump to overturn the presidential election. CNN is also reporting that the Justice Department is preparing right now to go to court whenever necessary to overrule with any possible claims of executive privilege made by former Trump White House staffers who will be questioned in the grand jury.
CNN reports that Vice President Mike Pence`s chief of staff Marc short and the vice president`s counsel Greg Jacob reached agreement with prosecutors before the grand jury testimony, quote, to stay clear of potential privilege issues, with the expectation that they could return to those questions at a later date, the people briefed on the matter said
Leading off our discussion tonight, Neal Katyal, former acting U.S. solicitor general and an MSNBC legal analyst.
And, Neal, I want to pick up on that point there, they reached what appears to be kind of a quick agreement of Marc Short and Jacob, a quick agreement of areas that they would stare around in order to avoid the issue of privilege at this stage.
But the prosecutors reserve the right to come back to it, bring them back into the grand jury, possibly after fighting this out in court and erasing any attempts of privilege, and then asking those questions again.
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Exactly, Lawrence, I`ve been waiting for the story because Trump has already lost these executive privilege claims 8-1 in the United States Supreme Court, which is not quite the 62 times that Donald Trump lost in 2020, but he`s working his way up to it. And yet, he still insisting on executive privilege and forcing these, you know, Pence aides and others to bracket the executive privilege question.
The Justice Department was obviously never going to go along with that. Congress was never going to go along with that. It`s bogus executive privilege is the Supreme Court, has said, largely resides in the hands of the current president, not the former one.
[22:10:02]
The current president has said there is no executive privilege here. And the Supreme Court moreover said executive privilege is never absolute and gives way when there`s a need for the evidence.
And here, here is the power diplomatic case where there`s a need for the evidence. So this is all about Trump`s modus operandi — delay, delay, delay. And we saw with Steve Bannon, that blindly exerting executive privilege is not a winning legal strategy. And they will win this one.
O`DONNELL: It seems to me, this is one leak that even though we have every right to assume it is not coming from the Justice Department, this is a leak that the Justice Department cannot be too upset with. Because it`s publicly putting on notice everybody out there, Mark Meadows, anyone out there, who is thinking about dragging executive privilege into this grand jury, that they are going to be ready for it, and they`re going to drag you right into court to force you to have a judge order you to answer those questions.
KATYAL: Absolutely, Lawrence. This is no surprise that the departments can do. It they are not run by the same incompetent political people like the last administration. Every Justice Department will do exactly this, every normal Justice Department, I should say. And even after Trump Saudi golf extravaganza today, it seems that Trump would want to fly home with the Saudis and I come back home to the United States because he`s going to have to face the music. Not just civilly, in terms of these lawsuits by the police officers that you mentioned, but criminally it looks like as well.
O`DONNELL: Neal, it looks like a vivid example between we a Justice Department and the congressional here. A congressional hearing works largely on cooperation, and if you invoke executive privilege with, them it`s too difficult for them to get in a fight to dismantle, that illegal. Whereas the Justice Department is poised and ready to go, right into the courtroom next door to fight it out and strip that executive privilege away.
KATYAL: Well, I think that`s right to appoint, but that 8 to 1 decision I mentioned before where Trump lost executive privilege was fought by Congress, so both can do, it you`re absolutely right, Lawrence. That is a practical matter, the Justice Department is more to talk to do. It by Congress can do, it already has done it. And a big difference to me is that the justice — the investigation, you are not going to see the same kind of big flashy presentations you see out of the January 6th committee. You`re just going to get serious substantive investigative work.
O`DONNELL: And you will be here to guide us through it. Neal Katyal, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
And we are joined now by Edward Caspar, he`s one of the lawyers representing eight U.S. Capitol police officers who have filed those civil lawsuits against Donald Trump. Thank you very much for joining us tonight.
I want to get your reaction to the Trump lawyers going to the appeals court saying that you do not have a right to bring these lawsuits.
EDWARD CASPAR, LAWYER: Thanks, Lawrence. Good to see you.
Lawrence. what`s your viewers have to understand is that this is all about accountability. My clients, the Capitol police officers who is their lives and defend our democracy, they have put their lawsuit to put accountable those people who are responsible for the attack. The former president does not like to be held accountable. He didn`t not want to be held accountable to the electorate when they voted him out of office, and so, he instigated the attack on the capitol to block Congress from certifying the election results.
And now, he doesn`t want to be held accountable for what he did that day. For the injuries he caused, not only to our country, but to the mothers and fathers, men and women, and police officers, who defended our country that day. There is no immunity for what he did. He will be held accountable.
O`DONNELL: And a civil case is different from a criminal case, it does not require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It just requires a reasonable belief that this is the way that it was. Also, the jury can find that Donald Trump contributed partially to what`s your client suffered or they can find him fully responsible for what your client suffered.
How important is it when you hear Kevin McCarthy relating a phone call with Donald Trump in the days after immediately after January six, in which Donald Trump says the Kevin McCarthy that he did feel responsible for what happened at the Capitol?
CASPAR: I think what Kevin McCarthy said is representative of all the evidence that has come to light. It`s almost stating an obvious conclusion at this point. It was clear when we brought this lawsuit that back in August, that the former president was responsible for the attack, along with many others, militia groups, militia members who planned for it and carried out the attack, political operatives the false claims of election fraud and help encouraged people to attack the Capitol.
[22:15:04]
Many people bear responsibility just as you said, and Kevin McCarthy`s, quote, confirms that the president is one of them.
O`DONNELL: Edward Caspar, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.
CASPAR: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, no one in the news media knows Kevin McCarthy better than our next guest, Mark Leibovich, who described McCarthy as one of the, quote, lapdogs in Trump`s kennel. We will consider how the lapdog will handle themselves on the Justice Department grand jury investigation of Donald Trump. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:20:13]
O`DONNELL: Ambush and I Donald Trump he has no friends. So when the people who sometimes publicly masqueraded as his friends are called before a criminal grand jury in Georgia and in Washington, they will finally find themselves confronting something that they might fear more that Donald Trump`s rage, possible perjury charges. Witnesses like Kevin McCarthy, who our next guest says, prove themselves to be a central lap dogs and Trump kennel, will no doubt turn on Trump like attack dogs when federal prosecutors close in on them as grand jury witnesses under oath in a federal grand jury in Washington, D.C.
The federal investigation of Donald Trump that is now being conducted by the Justice Department, and that investigation, Kevin McCarthy, will be asked exactly what Donald Trump said to him, word for word, in this phone call that Kevin McCarthy described.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MCCARTHY: I asked him personally today, does he hold responsibility for what happened? Does he feel bad about what`s happened? He told me he does have some responsibility for what happened. That he needed to acknowledge that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Mark Leibovich, staff writer at “The Atlantic”. He is the author of the new book, “Thank You For Your Servitude: Donald Trump`s Washington and the Price of Submission”. It is currently the number one, nonfiction book, on “The New York Times” bestseller list because this is what Washington`s favorite kind of beach read is.
Mark, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
As I read your understanding and view of Kevin McCarthy, and really, there is nothing in journalism that gets closer to it, and many of these other Trump players. I am always wondering about how that guy is going to handle himself, when he has to raise his right hand and the grand jury, along with many of these other people that you call Trump left dogs.
MARK LEIBOVICH, AUTHOR: Yeah, I mean these are not profiles in courage to say the least. I think that the main point of the book, and I wanted to tell the story of Washington over the last five or six years through the perspective of the lapdog who made Donald Trump possible. They submitted to him at every turn and Kevin McCarthy is exhibit A. This is someone who in classic Washington fashion wants a job, and wants to be speaker of the House. He is not going to, it`s not going to work for him if he doesn`t keep Donald Trump happy.
I mean, the thing that Donald Trump has a spell on people is that he thinks that they are essentially weak and he has been proven right one time after another. But as you said before, perjury can have a very chilling effect on these calculations, and look, Kevin McCarthy once he goes under oath, he is aware of how the law works. So he is going to have to tell the truth.
I think in this particular case, we`re talking about one phone conversation, it wouldn`t surprise me at all if Donald Trump deny that this happened. That is what he does. I`m not sure who to believe in this case, but ultimately, Donald Trump is going to see the walls caving in pretty quickly here.
And again, this sort of flimsy friendship coat that he operates under is going to cave in pretty quickly, once you are under the threat of purgatory.
O`DONNELL: Mark, what is your assessment of the feelings that these people, the so-called lapdog, have for Donald Trump? My sense of it from my distance is, they would have preferred their lives without Donald Trump in their lives.
LEIBOVICH: Absolutely, look, I`ve been covering Washington for a long time, I`ve never seen such a big gap between what these folks say privately about the president, which is quite contemptuous, and what they say publicly about him. Which is he, as we all seen, of vibration, complete complicity, this rolling over for him.
Frankly, it is pathetic. This is not what leadership looks, like this is not with the putative leadership of the Republican Party is supposed to look like. It`s why Donald Trump, believe it or not, after everything we`re talking about here, remains the front runner to be the Republican nominee for president for the third time in a year, in the third time in a row in 2024.
And it`s a ridiculous situation that I think any Republican would privately concede to. But ultimately, it`s sort of where we are today and it will be interesting to see how this proceeds.
O`DONNELL: I think we can remember a Washington where, even members of the presidents own party in the House, and in the Senate, big players like Danny Rostenkowski at the Ways and means Committee, Robert Byrd in the United States Senate, a Democratic president couldn`t tell them what to do.
[22:25:01]
Democratic president could just had to be behind the scenes begged them to please do as much of my agenda as you feel willing to do. And they had no problem banging against presidents within their own party, and certainly not the other party. On display, was both policy positions, jurisdictional powers, but also a very healthy displays of a male ego.
And a male ego seemed to completely evaporates in the Republican House of Representatives in relation to Donald Trump and the Republican Senate.
LEIBOVICH: It`s really kind of amazing. It`s actually a great point. In the classic sort of Republican fashion of the male brand of the Marlboro Man, the John Wayne maybe, the strong silent type. Again, in the ideal of it, it`s obviously not perfect alignment with the ideal.
But yeah, no, these are people that sort of given up there, I don`t know with the non profane way of saying this is, I won`t even try.
O`DONNELL: We get it.
LEIBOVICH: The ghost here, right? They have submitted to Donald Trump.
Ultimately look, when you are up against, it and there is a crisis moment as there has been certainly in the White House recently, it was Barry Goldwater who walked up to the White House when Richard Nixon had really sort of reached the end of his rope at Watergate. It was the Republican leadership who took the walk up Pennsylvania Avenue, or walks of the steps to the White House, who said, enough is enough, Mr. President.
And that it has been lacking here. You have in the last line of defense is Kevin McCarthy and Lindsey Graham, and Rudy Giuliani, and Mark Meadows, and we have seen one after another, there is a level of dereliction here that they are perfectly comfortable with, and frankly has brought the country to the precipice that could repeat itself and a couple of years. So I think that is what I wanted to try to tell here in the book. And hopefully it does so.
O`DONNELL: Well, if you aren`t getting enough of a political fix during congress`s longest recess, you have the great beach read, Mark Leibovich`s new book, “Thank You For Your Servitude”. Mark, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.
LEIBOVICH: Thanks, Lawrence. Good to be with you.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, Texas Governor Greg Abbott continues to refuse to call the Texas legislature into a special session to do some thing about gun safety after the mass murder of 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. Democratic candidate Beto O`Rourke joins us from the campaign trail in Texas. That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:32:06]
O`DONNELL: And we have breaking news from the “Washington Post,” reported by Carol Leonnig. I will just redo the lead of the story. Text messages for former President Donald Trump`s acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf and acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli are missing for a key period leading up to the January 6th attack on the Capitol, according to four people briefed on the matter and internal e-mails.
This discovery of missing records for the senior most Homeland Security officials, which has not been previously reported, increases the volume of potential evidence that has vanished, regarding the time around the Capitol attack.
We will have more on this reporting later in the hour, in a few minutes actually, as we develop it. We`re going to continue with our scheduled discussion with Beto O`Rourke, Texas candidate for governor. And we`ll be back to this in a few minutes.
The day, after 19 children and two teachers were murdered at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, Governor Greg Abbott held a news conference in Uvalde where he presented what turned out to be a completely false account of what happened inside the school. Our next guest, Beto O`Rourke, confronted the governor that day, telling him the time to stop the next shooting is right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit down and don`t play this stuff.
BETO O`ROURKE (D), TEXAS GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: The time to stop the next shooting is right now, and you`re doing nothing. You`re all bringing up nothing.
MAYOR DON MCLAUGHLIN (R), UVALDE, TEXAS: No. You need to get his ass out of here. This ain`t the place to talk to me so —
O`ROURKE: You said this was not predictable. This is totally predictable when you choose not to do anything.
MCLAUGHLIN: Sir, you`re out of line. Sir, you are out of line. Sir, you are out of line. Please leave this auditorium.
O`ROURKE: I`m standing up for the kids of this state to stop this from happening again.
MCLAUGHLIN: I can`t believe you`re a sick son of a bitch who would come to a deal like this to make a political issue.
O`ROURKE: This is on you. This is on you until you choose to do something about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The man who called Beto O`Rourke a sick son of a bitch now seems to agree with Beto O`Rourke that the time to stop the next shooting is right now. That was the Republican mayor of Uvalde yelling at Beto O`Rourke that day while trying to protect the Republican governor from criticism. But now the mayor and the city council in Uvalde are unanimously urging Governor Abbott to call a special session of the legislature to raise the minimum age for buying assault weapons, like the one used by the 18-year- old Uvalde mass murderer, from age 18 to age 21.
The Uvalde city council voted unanimously in support of a resolution. Urging the governor to call a special session of the legislature. The local school board in Uvalde also voted unanimously in favor of the same resolution.
Here is what City Counselor Hector (INAUDIBLE) said on Tuesday after the city council unanimously approved the resolution.
[22:35:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HECTOR LUEVANO, UVALDE CITY COUNCIL MEMBER: Why do we have to ask for a special session? Why doesn`t he take the initiative after May 24th to say we need to sit down and talk about this because we can`t let this happen anymore?
He hasn`t done it. We have to make a — we have to ask him. The citizens have to ask to have a special session. Is that the type of person you want leading the state of Texas? I don`t know if he even cares about Uvalde.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And the day after that, Governor Abbott was asked about the city council`s demand for a special legislative session to raise the age for purchasing assault weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you in fact call a special session specifically about raising the limit on who can buy and assault weapon?
GOV. GREG ABBOTT (R), TEXAS: Well, listen, there is no agreement on anything like that whatsoever. What there is agreement on that everybody agrees upon and that is we need to get to the root of the problem. The root of the problem that was abundantly clear with regards to the shooter there in Uvalde was a very serious mental health issue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And joining us now is Beto O`Rourke, Democratic nominee for governor of Texas.
So has the mayor of Uvalde called you to apologize for what he said to you that day when you confronted Greg Abbott, and tell you that he now agrees with you about trying to do something about gun safety?
O`ROURKE: I`m just glad that he and the city council are taking this action, and that that community is standing up for itself. The parents of those kids who were killed, the family members of those two teachers, they have led marches in their community, they`ve led rallies, they`ve held press conferences. They are asking for accountability, they`re asking for justice, and they`re asking for action.
And they`ve been pretty specific right now through their representatives on the council. At a minimum, raise the age of purchase for an AR-15, AK-47, weapons originally designed for use in combat, designed to kill an enemy soldier at 500 feet piercing their helmet. These kids were not 500 feet, we`re wearing helmet on that day. Some cases had to be identified by the shoes that they were wearing. At least increase the age to 21 years old.
And as you just played in that clip, the governor says, there is no agreement in the state. In fact, 73 percent of Texas that`s gun owners, that`s non-gun owners, Republicans, Democrats, they agree that we should raise the age of minimum purchase to 21. You`ve got Republican mayors, you have Republican legislators out there who will come to the table. All we lack is the political will and leadership in the highest office in Texas. That`s why we need to change. Those families deserve. It
O`DONNELL: The poll indicates 73 percent support in the state of Texas. But as you go out there in the campaign trail, how strong, how intense is that feeling? In Uvalde, obviously, it`s very strong, very powerful. But as you move greater distances away from that in Texas, how strong is that support?
O`ROURKE: Lawrence, I`ve spent the last nine days on the road in Texas in places like Lubbock and Amarillo, Pampa, and Dumas. I`ve just left Pittsburgh, Texas, after being in Texarkana the night before. All of these communities are represented by Republican state legislators. In every single one of these communities, there is common ground with those Republicans and Democrats in the room about raising the minimum age, about extending background checks until they are universal in the state of Texas, implementing a red flag law.
And, you know, if the governor is serious about mental health care, let`s invest there. We`re 51st in the nation and access to a mental health care provider. The month before Uvalde, Greg Abbott took $211 million out of the state of Texas`s mental health care budget. So we`re all about it, but unfortunately, he`s not. We need action at this moment or there will be more shootings unfortunately, like the one that we saw in Uvalde or El Paso or Sutherland Springs or Santa Fe High School or Midland, Odessa, or so many of them.
We had five of the worst shootings in U.S. history right here in the state in the last five years. Abbott has been governor for every single one of them. I don`t think he wants these mass shootings. I don`t think he wants kids to die. But he is either unwilling or incapable of doing the things necessary to change this so it doesn`t happen again going forward. That`s why we have to change who`s in that office going forward.
O`DONNELL: I want to go to another issue in the thick of the summer in Texas where your electrical grid is under tremendous pressure under this heat and the air-conditioning burden in Texas.
[22:40:01]
And we know that that grid is something that Texans cannot rely on. How has it been going so far?
O`ROURKE: People are angry because Greg Abbott has yet to fix the grid. I was in Quanah, Texas, talking to a cotton grower that I visited a few years back. He told me that last February he was freezing in his home. Didn`t know if he was going to survive the night because the heat wouldn`t work. The power wasn`t on in the energy capital of the world. And to add insult to injury, he`s now paying higher utility bills every day.
We can fix this. It`s winterizing and weatherizing the grid. It`s connecting ERCOT, our grid in Texas, with the nation`s grid so that we can draw down power when we need it. Sell it back up when we have a surplus. But it also means going after Greg Abbott`s cronies. This corruption in Texas that allowed these energy traders and pipeline companies to steal $11 billion from Texans for over five days in February when people were literally freezing to death.
When I`m governor, we`re going to go after those illegal profits and return them back to that cotton grower in Quanah, Texas, and the Texans all over the state. We can do this. We`re the energy capital of the world. It`s not for a lack of energy or electricity. Again, it`s leadership. His corruption, his incompetence, his cruelty, his chaos is costing Texas. We`ve got to make a change.
O`DONNELL: Beto O`Rourke, thank you very much for joining us once again tonight. We really appreciate it.
O`ROURKE: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: And when we come back, we will have more on tonight`s breaking news about the new discovery of missing text messages from key Trump officials in the run up to January 6th. Officials, the acting Homeland security, secretary of Homeland Security is involved in this right.
Now Carol Leonnig broke the story for the “Washington Post.” She`s going to join us when we come back from this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:46:34]
O`DONNELL: And now we have a second breaking news story. NBC News has learned that the January 6th Committee is preparing 20 witness transcripts of their investigation for delivery to the Justice Department for its criminal investigation of Donald Trump.
And we return now to the big breaking news of just a few minutes ago, the “Washington Post`s” Carol Leonnig who will join us in a moment to discuss her reporting in the “Washington Post” tonight, the lead of that reporting is text messages for former President Donald Trump`s acting Homeland Security Secretary Chad Wolf and acting Deputy Secretary Ken Cuccinelli are missing for a key period leading up to the January 6th attack on the Capitol, according to four people briefed on the matter and internal e- mails.
Joining us now by phone is Carol Leonnig, Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative reporter for the “Washington Post.” She is an MSNBC contributor, and she is the author of “Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall of the Secret Service.”
Carol, thank you very much for joining us so quickly on this breaking news. What more can you tell us about what you are reporting tonight?
CAROL LEONNIG, THE WASHINGTON POST INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Well, Lawrence, it`s kind of to me, even to me, you know, government accountability reporter, investigative reporter, it`s sort of a stunner to discover from sources over the last 24 to 48 hours that, you know, those missing Secret Service text that created such a firestorm, it turns out there are more texts that are missing.
What my colleague, Maria Sacchetti and I learned was that the DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, forgive me, the Department of Homeland Security notified a government watchdog in February that they did not and could not provide texts for their senior most leaders at the department and that might have been exchanged in the walk up to the January 6th attack on the Capitol, and President Trump`s rally outside the White House.
The reason they notified the Department of Homeland Security`s watchdog that they did not have these texts, and that they had been erased and deleted was because that government watchdog was trying to obtain them. And several congressional committees were interested in them as well. They are pieces of evidence to figure out what happened, what conversations took place.
But in this case, Lawrence, these are the two people who are running the department that was responsible for monitoring domestic extremism, for protecting the homeland from people like the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. And now their texts are vanished.
O`DONNELL: So the watchdog we`re talking about here is Joseph Cuffari. He`s the inspector general of that department. And the committees now are finding fault with him for not notifying them as soon as he knew it, about these missing text messages.
LEONNIG: That is right. That`s absolutely right. And the stunner for the committee, the congressional committees that are very upset, including Homeland Security Committee Chairman Bennie Thompson, the reason they`re so disappointed is a mild word for it.
[22:50:12]
The reason they`re so angry is because this government watchdog was supposed to be letting them know if there were substantial flaws in the way the Department of Homeland Security`s programs were being run. And if they were in potential violation of the law. And not archiving and protecting and preserving government records on any given Wednesday or boring Tuesday is still potential violation of the law.
In this instance, it involves records that are critical evidence in both congressional, and now criminal investigations into what happened with the president and his allies as they sought to overturn the results of an election.
O`DONNELL: And you also are reporting that Donald Trump`s first director of the Secret Service, he`s now on his second one, James Murray, but his first one, Randolph Alles, his text messages are also gone.
LEONNIG: Yes. You know, particularly ironic twist, Lawrence, the office that alerts the inspector general, Mr. Cuffari, the office from DHS that alerts Mr. Cuffari we don`t have the record is the office run by Undersecretary Tex Alles who before he took that job was the director of the Secret Service. So the officer in charge of preserving the record says, we don`t have any records for our boss. And, you know, as I say, the frustration for Congress, and ultimately for the Department of Justice, is that there is a responsibility to maintain these records.
And the government watchdog who is looking into it learns these are missing and says nothing. Doesn`t probe more deeply, doesn`t ask for more of an explanation. Just says, oh, OK, thanks for letting us know.
O`DONNELL: We asked the Secret Service about Director James Murray`s text messages for January 6th. They said he didn`t have any but added this in their response. They said, “By policies Secret Service employees are not to conduct official government business via text for information security purposes, as well as government record retention. So they are saying that the Secret Service are not supposed to have any business text messages on their phones.
LEONNIG: Well, that is definitely a reasonable policy. The problem, Lawrence, from a rational standpoint with that is that the Secret Service gave employees instruction when they were resetting the phones and said, if you see that you have government business conducted on your phone, here is where you will archive and upload that information. So we preserve these records.
So it may be policy not to text and conduct government business, but the Secret Service appears, as they`ve explained it to me, appears to have realized that some employees conducted government business that way.
O`DONNELL: Carol Leonnig, thank you very much for joining jumping on the phone with us after this breaking news report that you`ve delivered to the “Washington Post” tonight. We really appreciate your time.
LEONNIG: Of course.
O`DONNELL: We will be right back.
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[22:57:56]
O`DONNELL: Here is the worst lie that Donald Trump told about 9/11.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: How did he keep us safe when the World Trade Center —
(CHEERS)
TRUMP: The World — excuse me, I lost hundreds of friends. The World Trade Center came down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: As soon as he said that in 2016, I said that that was a lie. And Donald Trump never said it again. He never said, I lost hundreds of friends on 9/11 again because, as I knew, Donald Trump lost zero friends on 9/11. Donald Trump attended zero 9/11 funerals. And now, the 9/11 families are horrified that Donald Trump is hosting a Saudi financed golf tournament in New Jersey where everyone knows that 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi, as of course was Osama bin Laden.
A reporter asked Donald Trump about the families` reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Former President Trump just, today, said that nobody`s really got into the bottom of 9/11. When you heard that, what went through your head?
TERRY STRADA, 9/11 FAMILIES UNITED NATIONAL CHAIR: Well, he sounds like a fool. We met with him in 2020, a couple of 9/11 families, including myself, specifically to ask him to declassify the intelligence reports that was the involvement of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia in murdering our loved ones. And he said that he would do that for us. And the very next day, he reneged on that promise, so he lied to our faces, and AG Barr stamped state secrets across all of the documents, almost all of them, that we were requesting. So he just sounds like a fool.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That`s Terry Strada who lost her husband Tom, who worked in the World Trade Center on 9/11. She is the chair of the 9/11 Families United. And with Donald Trump`s golf tournament starting tomorrow in New Jersey, Terry Strada gets tonight`s LAST WORD.
That is tonight`s LAST WORD. The “11TH HOUR” with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.