Updated
Summary
Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn fought against the attackers of the Capitol on January 6th. Today one of the people who invaded the Capitol that day extended his hand to Harry Dunn and apologized. The groups involved in planning the attack on the Capitol, and how they carried it out on January 6th.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.
We are, of course, going to begin with the lawyers tonight, to go over the evidence that was revealed today and as I mentioned to you earlier in our coverage, I`m going to be joined by Capitol police officer, Harry Dunn, who had that stunning moment after the hearing today, where Stephen Ayres, who was one of the rioters on January 6th, inside the Capitol, approached him, and other Capitol police officers to shake their hands. He`s going to tell us how he felt about that, after that hearing.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, “TRMS”: That moment you described where the approach was made, it was defined by some observers asked, you know, X happened, and then, Officer Dunn later clarified, no, that`s not what happened. It went down differently than you think it did. It was a pretty remarkable moment. And that photo was a pretty remarkable thing. I am really looking forward to see that interview.
O`DONNELL: Rachel, that`s the photo that someone tweeted, and labeled it, apology offered, and of apology accepted. And then, Officer Dunn, re- tweeted that, saying apology offered, dot, dot, dot. Did not say in his tweet whether it was accepted.
We will ask him about that.
MADDOW: Excellent. Get to it. Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Rachel. Thank you.
Well, the real job of the president of the United States is the part we never see. It`s not the speech. It`s not where the cameras are. The real job of the president is making the presidential decision, the decisions that only the president can make.
All of the important decisions are made after consultation with the president`s most trusted advisers, most of whom usually work in the White House, but some of whom could be senators, or the speaker of the House. We learned today that Donald Trump made the most important decision of his presidency, after the most unhinged meeting that we know of in the history of the American presidency. A meeting that includes screaming and insults, that went on for six hours, and almost came to blows between a White House lawyer, and a deranged retired general, who now takes the Fifth Amendment, and won`t answer any questions about that meeting.
It was after that meeting, according to the evidence presented today, at the January 6th hearing, that Donald Trump decided, made the presidential decision, to mount and join an attack on the Capitol on January 6th. The meeting began in the Oval Office on the night of December 18.
When the meeting started, only White House outsiders were in the Oval Office, with the president. The two lawyers, who have since had their license suspended, Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, were there, along with the self-confessed criminal, former General Michael Flynn, who was pardoned by Donald Trump, to avoid a prison sentence, and the former CEO of Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne. There was no testimony about what Patrick Byrne contributed to the meeting today.
Four days before that meeting, the Electoral College officially voted with Joe Biden, winning the clear majority of the votes of the Electoral College. At that point, the top Republican in the Senate, Mitch McConnell, gave a speech, finally congratulating Joe Biden, on his victory in the presidential election, a victory Joe Biden earned weeks before that.
Attorney General William Barr, testified to the January 6th Committee, that as far as he was concerned, the Electoral College vote on December 14th was, quote, the end of the matter.
Today, White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, testified on video, recorded on Friday, that he believed Donald Trump should then have conceded to Joe Biden, after the electoral college voted. Cipollone testified under oath that Mark Meadows, the White House chief of staff, agreed that Trump should concede to Joe Biden. Two days after the Electoral College vote, there was a drafted executive order written, ordering the seizing of voting machines by the Department of Defense, and naming Sidney Powell as a special counsel to investigate those voting machines, for voter fraud.
The unhinged meeting occurred two days after that executive order was drafted. Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani did not have a scheduled meeting with the president. They gained access to the White House and the Oval Office from a junior White House staffer.
[22:05:01]
The subject of the meeting was their proposal to have the Department of Defense seized voting machines, and to appoint Sidney Powell as a special counsel. Here is video testimony that the committee used today, to tell the story of what happened in the most insane meeting in the Oval Office in the history of the American presidency.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
PAT CIPOLLONE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I got a call, either from Molly, or from Eric Herschmann, that I had to go to the Oval Office.
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDE: So at the first point, I hadn`t recognized, okay, there`s no word from the White House. Mark is gone. What`s going on right now?
CIPOLLONE: I opened the door, and I walked in, and I saw General Flynn. I saw Sidney Powell sitting there. I was not happy to see the people who are in the Oval Office.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Explain why.
CIPOLLONE: Well, again, I don`t think they were providing — first of all, and overstock person I`ve never met, I never knew, I don`t know who this person wants. Actually, the first thing I did, I walked in, I looked at him, I said who are you? And he told me, I don`t think any of these people were providing the president with good advice.
And — so, I didn`t understand how they had gotten in.
ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISOR: I was asked, to cling to, you think the Democrats were working with Venezuelans, and whomever else at, one point? General Flynn took out a diagram that supposedly showed, people all over the world, and who was communicating with whom, via the machines, and some comment about like stats being hooked up to the Internet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, it`s been reported during this meeting, as Powell talked about Dominion voting machines, and made various election fraud claims that involved foreign countries, such as Venezuela, Iran, and China. Is that accurate?
MIKE FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The Fifth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the meeting tense?
DEREK LYONS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE STAFF SECRETARY: Oh, yeah. It was not a casual meeting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Explain.
LYONS: I mean, a times, there were people shouting at each other, insults at each other. It wasn`t just sort of people sitting around on the couch like chitchatting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You recall whether he raised to Ms. Powell, the fact that she and her campaign had lost all the 60 cases they brought in litigation.
CIPOLLONE: Yes, he raised that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what was the response?
CIPOLLONE: I don`t remember what she said. I don`t think it was a good response.
SIDNEY POWERLL, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR TRUMP CAMPAIGN: Cipollone and Herschmann and whoever the other guy was, showed nothing but contempt and disdain of the president.
CIPOLLONE: I remember the three of them were really sort of forcefully attacking me verbally. Eric, Derek, and we were pushing back, and we were asking one simple question but. As a general matter, where is the evidence? So —
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What response did you get when you asked this panel and her colleagues?
CIPOLLONE: A variety of responses, based on my current recollection, including, you know, I can`t believe you would say something — you know, things like this. Like, what do you mean? Where is the evidence? You know, things like that, or you know, a disregard, I would say, a general disregard for the importance of actually backing up what you say with facts.
LYONS: And you know there was a discussion, well, we don`t have it now, or we`ll have it or whatever.
HERSCHMANN: They were going to challenge what she was saying, and she says, well, the judges were corrupt. And I was like, everyone? Every single case that you`ve done in the country, you guys lost. Every one of them is corrupt, even the ones we appointed? And — I am being nice, much more harsh to her.
I think it got to the point where the screaming was — completely, completely out there. When people walked in, it was late at night, after a long day, and what they were proposing I thought was nuts.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN LAWYER: I am going to categorically describe it has, you guys, are not tough enough. Or maybe put it another way, if you are a bunch of (EXPLETIVE DELETED), excuse the expression. But, I`m almost certain the word was used.
HERSCHMANN: Flynn screamed at me that I was quitter, and everything, he kept on standing up and turning around and screaming at me. And then, at a certain point, I had it with him, so — I yelled back, I had to come over. Sit your f`ing ass back down.
[22:10:05]
GIULIANI: The president and the White House team went upstairs to the residence, but to the upper part of the residents, you know, the big part where you can have meetings in the conference room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You call it the yellow Oval?
GUILIANI: Yes, exactly, the yellow Oval Office. I always called it the upper. And I`m not exactly sure where the Sidney group went. I think maybe the Roosevelt room. And I stayed in the cabinet room, which is kind of cool, I really liked that, all by myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The official term for those outsiders who were meeting in the Oval Office, the official term among the people who worked in the Trump White House, we turn for that group, was the crazies. That`s what they called them. Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, General Flynn, the crazies had shown up.
Apparently, it was all worth it for Rudy Giuliani, because he got to sit in the cabinet room alone, maybe he even got to sit in the president`s chair in the cabinet room, as any child would want to.
When the crazies left the building, Donald Trump arrived at his presidential decision. He decided not to order the Department of Defense to seize voting machines. Instead, he ordered his civilian troops to come to Washington. He did that at 1:42 a.m.
Donald Trump tweeted, big protest in D.C., on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!
The committee presented evidence from a Twitter official, about how that specific tweet electrified violent supporters of Donald Trump, who relayed the Trump message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MATT BRACKEN, RIGHT-WING COMMENTATOR: We are going to only be saved by millions of Americans, moving to Washington, occupying the entire area, if necessary, storming right into the Capitol. We know the rules of engagement. If you have enough people, you can push down any kind of offense or a wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: A Trump supporting website delivered this message, bring handcuffs, and wake near the tunnels. Body armor, knuckles, shields, bats, pepper spray, whatever it takes. Join your local Proud Boys chapter as well.
The committee obtained a draft tweet by the president that was never sent. That wheat set, I will be making a big speech attending on January 6th at the ellipse, south of the White House. Police arrive early, massive crowds expected. March to the Capitol after.
Donald Trump decided it was better to make the march to the Capitol seem to be spontaneous on January 6, even though we now know it was fully premeditated by the president of the United States.
So, the committee has established beyond reasonable doubt, that Donald Trump knew the crowd that he personally assembled in Washington on January 6. The crowd he`s summoned to Washington on January 6th, was equipped with dangerous weapons, and he told that crowd, equipped with dangerous weapons, to go to the Capitol. And he actually tried to go to the Capitol with them, but the Secret Service, in a showdown, with the president, in the car, after his speech, refused to take him to the Capitol. Next week, the committee will present exactly what Trump was doing, and not doing, during the attack on the Capitol.
Today, the committee showed how strong Donald Trump`s influence was over the people attacking the Capitol. Here is Stephen Ayres, one of the nonviolent criminals, who entered the Capitol that day, and who pleaded guilty to trespassing in the capital.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): The president issued a 4:17 tweet, I believe, that included a video, telling people to go home. Did you see that? And that have any effect on what you did after?
STEPHEN AYRES, STORMED CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6: When we were there, as soon as that come out, everybody started talking about it. And as it seemed like it started to disperse, you know, some of the crowd, obviously, once we got back to the hotel room, we were seeing that was still going on, but it definitely dispersed a lot of the crowd.
RASKIN: And you leave at that point?
AYRES: Yeah, we did. Yeah, we left.
RASKIN: So, in other words, that was the key moment, when you decided to leave, when President Trump told people to go home?
AYRES: Yeah, yeah. We left right when that come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Leading off our discussion tonight, Barry Berke, who served as special counsel to the Judiciary Committee, during Trump`s first impeachment trial and chief impeachment counsel during Trump`s second impeachment trial in the Senate.
[22:15:04]
Also with us, Daniel Goldman, former House majority counsel for the first impeachment trial of Donald Trump. He`s a former assistant U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York. He`s now running for Congress as Democrat in New York`s 10th congressional district.
And, Barry, this is on those beginning to end here, in terms of what happened in January 6th. It shows the decision to summon people, to Washington, on January six. A decision made by the president. It then shows the president deciding to tell the people to go to the Capitol on January 6th, after being informed that they were armed with dangerous weapons. And then, it shows the president finally persuaded to tell the people to leave the Capitol. He tells them to leave the Capitol, and they start to leave.
What stood out for you in the flow of malinformation today?
BARRY BERKE, FORMER HOUSE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY CHIEF COUNSEL: Lawrence, you`re absolutely right. It was a powerful response to anyone who says, Donald Trump should not be criminally prosecuted. Because prior to that, of course, we now heard how he was told that there was no evidence the election was stolen and he should concede, by the courts, state officials, his senior DOJ leadership, his attorney general, his White House counsel, other senior administration officials, and his campaign.
And instead, he does a clarion call to his supporters to come to Washington to stop the steal and. The night before, he amps up his speech when he is hearing those supporters who he called talking about 1776, a revolution. He adds, a tax on his vice president in Congress, and continues to amp it up, even after he knows, they are armed, and they include violent elements. And he`s telling them to march. And we now know that other people were tipped off, that he was going to tell them to March to the Capitol.
This is extremely powerful evidence of his intent to interfere with Congress. It`s not a sole act — it`s the final act of his scheme to try to overturn the overturn the election, to put his own lust for power over the safety of his vice president, the members of Congress, the brave men and women, defending the Capitol, and, of course, the sanity of our democracy.
So, it was a very powerful day that should get people`s attention.
O`DONNELL: David Goldman, what`s stood up for you in the evidence today?
DANIEL GOLDMAN, FORMER HOUSE IMPEACHMENT INQUIRTY MAJORITY COUNSEL: Well, that meeting on December 18th it`s just absolutely wild. And it was the culmination, I think, all of the crazy conspiracy theories that obviously got nowhere in court. And it was almost as if the non-crazies we`re just waiting until December 14th, which is the day that the Electoral College was certified in the states around the country, because all legal challenges, as we know from Bush v. Gore, have to be completed before that day.
And what was clear is that Trump, Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and Michael Flynn, it`s remarkable that Michael Flynn had anything to do with this, but they were now shifting from a quasi-legal strategy to just an outright coup, to try to figure out how they can seize the voting machines, how Sidney Powell could be a special counsel with the authority to make criminal charges, and we know they would be based on absolutely nothing.
And the screaming and yelling, and Rudy Giuliani, and just, you know, trying to impress Donald Trump with her toughness, and with no evidence, it is an embarrassment to this country. It is a stain on the Oval Office. And it was clearly the catalyst for Trump targeting January 6th, as the combination when there were no legal strategies lasting, and was now just time to use violence, to stop the peaceful transfer of power.
This is what happens in banana republics around the country. This does not happen in the United States. But they are still at it, Lawrence. They`re still trying to pave the way to do it again in 2024.
O`DONNELL: I think we have to stop saying it doesn`t happen in the United States. Since we just heard it described, as happening in the actual Oval Office.
And, I want to go to a piece of the video with Pat Cipollone, where Liz Cheney asked him about the need to abide by the rules of the courts, and how the president must abide by the rules of the courts. And she asked him something else there too, which I think is going to be important next week. Let`s listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CIPOLLONE: Everybody, everybody is obligated to abide by the rules of the courts.
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): And I assume you also would agree, the president has a particular obligation to take care that the laws be faithfully executed?
CIPOLLONE: That is one of the president`s obligations, correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And, Barry Berke, that sounds to me like a setup for next week, where we will see the president, not taking care that laws are faithfully executed, once the invasion of the Capitol is underway.
[22:20:09]
And the president is doing absolutely nothing to stop what`s happening in the capital, when it is within his power to stop it, but by ordering more resources into action, and, and by ordering his people to leave the Capitol building.
BERKE: That is absolutely correct, Lawrence. We know from the second impeachment, just hearing from Republican senators and others, who voted, they would avoided all of this, how much they were affected by Trump not taking action. People couldn`t get in touch with him.
They were all calling him, including Kevin McCarthy, please, stop this, send in the Guards. We`ve heard evidence already that Vice President Pence had to take action. It is so powerful how it was set up.
And I think they did it so well by having Pat Cipollone a, huge Trump supporter, Dan Goldman and I know well, we battled Pat Cipollone where he defended President Trump and his indefensible conduct in impeachment one. And the fact that he is setting up, he is sending the message that democracy had to be protected, and he drew a line after December 14th, I think it should speak to Republicans and independents and Democrats, to say our democracy is on the line.
And when the president acts like this leading up to it, and then allows that joint session of Congress to be attacked, and our armed services protecting them, the men, the police officers, the men and women or they, are not doing anything, that is game stopper. And something has to be done, or God help us if we have another unhinged president who loses an election. And we might not get so lucky next time with him being stopped.
O`DONNELL: And once again, at the end of the hearing, going beyond any of the testimony that we heard today, the committee through Liz Cheney, revealed something very, very important, that may be further developed in the next hearing. And this was about that Donald Trump, making a phone call to a witness, to the committee, trying to speak to a witness — of the January 6 committee.
Let`s listen to what Liz Cheney said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: After our last hearing, President Trump try to call a witness in our investigation. A witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. That person declined to answer or respond to President Trump`s call, and instead, alerted their lawyer to the call. They are lawyer alerted us. And this committee has supplied that information to the Department of Justice.
Let me say one more time, we will take any effort to influence witness testimony very seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And that statement was just so loaded, including with the fact that it`s the witness you have not yet seen in these hearings, but a witness so important that Donald Trump himself is making a call. Daniel Goldman, when they referred that information to the Justice Department, what happens at the Justice Department?
GOLDMAN: Well, Lawrence, we`ve talked about this a lot. This is typical mob boss behavior. I prosecuted an organized crime, I prosecuted mob boss, and this is exactly how they operate. But it also shows to me that Donald Trump is desperate. That these hearings are making a difference, they are making an imprint on him, and perhaps, his supporters.
And so, his desperation is leading him to commit potentially, commit crimes. Now, this will be referred to the Department of Justice. They will put someone on it to investigate. They will obviously speak to that witness. It`s unclear whether there is going to be sufficient evidence to show it to us trying to influence this witnesses testimony, because the witness apparently did, never did speak to Donald Trump.
But this is what we call, in criminal trials, powerful evidence of consciousness of guilt. When you are reaching out to try to influence testimony, you are acknowledging that there is damaging testimony that you need to influence. And this is what criminals do. This is especially what desperate criminals to.
So, I don`t know if we should expect charges from this, because there was no conversation, according to it Congresswoman Cheney said today. But this is additional evidence that demonstrates that Trump knows that what he did was wrong, which is the whole ball of wax was going to be for the Department of Justice.
O`DONNELL: Barry Berke and Daniel Goldman, thank you very much for joining our coverage on this important night. Really appreciate it.
GOLDMAN: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Up next, Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, will join us on the day, when one of the Trump mob, who invaded the capital, shook his hand and apologized.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): One wrote, I`m ready for my beliefs.
[22:25:03]
Are you ready to die, police?
Another wrote on the Donald.win, cops don`t have standing if they are laying on the ground in a pool of their own blood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Our next guest, Capitol police officer, Harry Dunn, fought against the attackers of the Capitol on January 6th. Today, one of the people who invaded the Capitol that day extended his hand to Harry Dunn, and apologized.
Officer Dunn will tell us in a moment if he accepted that apology. Here is Officer Dunn`s testimony in the very first January 6th Committee hearing last year.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRY DUNN, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: This wasn`t the first time that — if I can just use this quote — that the MAGA people came up here to the Capitol before.
[22:30:00]
They were in D.C. before. There we are some skirmishes, but it was never an attempt to overthrow the democracy.
They came up, I think this was maybe their second or third time that they had come up on January 6. And even then, as belligerent as they were, didn`t account to this violence. So the only difference that I see in that is that they had marching orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, U.S. Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, who was in the hearing room today. Officer Dunn, was this the first time that you have met someone who invaded the Capitol that day?
DUNN: Hey Lawrence, thanks for having me on. First time that I know of. You look at that individual, he just looks like some random dude, right? Yes, that`s the first time that I know of that I knowingly met somebody who was there at the Capitol.
O`DONNELL: Did you anticipate that moment, that he might approach, at the end of the hearing, as he did to all of you officers, to shake hands and apologize?
DUNN: You know, at that moment right there, it was kind of an awkward moment. A couple of moments before Sergeant Gonell (ph) had stepped out and removed himself from the hearing room. He was a little overcome with emotion, prior to, you know, when Representative Raskin spoke about him.
And I went out there after him, and we talked, and we had a moment. And then, we came back inside.
And the last words of the hearing were happening. They were wrapping up. So, I was still focused on, you know, trying to get my head back in the game, so to speak.
But no, I — it caught me off guard. And you know, good for him for apologizing. But, you know, he owed an apology to the entire world, to the entire American democracy, to the American people, you know. Whether he inflicted violence or harm on anybody, he kept us from doing our job that day. And he needs to be held accountable.
So, I acknowledge his apology, but I had other things going on, where I am not accepting it at the moment.
O`DONNELL: He was, as the evidence that we know of, one of the nonviolent invaders of the Capitol. He, according to his testimony, left when Donald Trump told him to leave, finally in that tweet.
But it was my observation that day, that the only way the Capitol police could be overwhelmed as much as they were was not — it was not just the people who they were physically engaged in fighting with, it was the fact that there were hundreds and hundreds, and thousands of them behind the people who are fighting.
And it`s the totality of the crowd that enabled you to overwhelm a police force like that. And so, that everyone involved does have guilt in the physical violent assault, because they were part of what the police had to deal with.
DUNN: You know, correct. That`s 100 percent correct. So, if you think about it, like whether he or his friends or whoever he came with were assaulting us or not. We still have to account for them. We still had to deal with them.
So, the people that — everybody who was there, we have to try to deal with them in some capacity. So even though the numbers may have been nowhere near representative of the size of the crowd, the amount of people that assaulted us, we still have to account for all those individuals, because it isn`t like they had on signs that said, hey, we are here to assault you, hey we`re here to not assault you.
If you were in that building, you were wrong, period. And you know, that wasn`t a peaceful protest, so everybody there was treated accordingly. So – –
O`DONNELL: One thing I was struck by today`s hearing is that your testimony in the very first hearing by this committee, the line that we just showed you saying there, was the difference in this group of Trump supporters coming to Washington was that, as you said, they had their marching orders.
And today`s hearing was the full evidentiary display of them getting their marching orders from Donald Trump, laid out by the committee in exactly the way you basically described it at the beginning of this committee process.
DUNN: Yes, and the reason I felt so confident making that statement, it`s because we were on the frontlines fighting them. And they literally told us that that`s why they were here. “The president told us to come. Donald Trump told us to come. We were invited here by the president. This is the peoples house.”
[22:34:48]
DUNN: So they — we heard those lines. It wasn`t a surprise to me. I`m glad that the entire world is hearing it now, not just having to take my word for it.
I`ve been called a liar, or you know, I`ve been paid by the left, and all this stuff. But I`m glad that the other people are finally stepping up, and saying what it really was, you know?
O`DONNELL: You`ve been in the hearing room for all of the hearings. What is it like for you, and particularly today, to be in the hearing? And for an event in your life that you certainly have not yet gotten over, if you are ever going to get over it.
DUNN: You know, I don`t — first of all, when do you get over it? I can`t start — I don`t think healing until accountability is served and justice is served. Just like any other victim in America, when any other injustice happens to them. Why am I any different. Why shouldn`t I want accountability? Why shouldn`t I want Justice just like any other individual. So, until that happens, I`m going to keep fighting for it.
But as far as being in the hearing room, today was a little interesting, I did not know what to expect because I knew that there was going to be an individual who was there that day.
And even though he was remorseful, he still impeded us from doing our job that day. And he was a cause of the problem, whether he attacked us or not.
O`DONNELL: Officer Harry Dunn, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you for your service on January 6, and every other day, protecting democracy in this country. Thank you very much.
DUNN: Thanks Lawrence for having me on.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
Eugene Robinson will join us next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): As you can see, Miss Hutchinson reported that the meeting in the West Wing was unhinged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:36:46]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): President Trump`s former campaign manager, Brad Parscale recognized the impact of the speech immediately. And this is what he said on January 6th, in excerpts from text messages to Katrina Pierson.
Mr. Parscale said quote, “This is about Trump pushing for uncertainty in our country, a sitting president asking for civil war.” And then, when he said, “This week I feel guilty for helping him”, Katrina Pierson responded, “You did what you felt right at that time, and therefore it was right.” Mr. Parscale added, “Yes, but a woman is dead, and yes, if I was Trump, and I knew my rhetoric killed someone.” When Miss Pierson replied, “It wasn`t the rhetoric.” Mr. Parscale said, “Katrina, yes, it was.”
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Eugene Robinson, associate editor and Pulitzer prize winning columnist for the “Washington Post”. He`s an MSNBC political analyst.
And Eugene, how do you judge that exchange? Did Donald Trump`s rhetoric get that women killed at the Capitol that day?
EUGENE ROBINSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. It absolutely did. And let`s go back to that crazy meeting in the White House, with crazy Sydney Powell and crazy Michael Flynn, coming in, essentially arguing, in front of the president of the United States, that he staged a military coup. Right, that he lost an election, and he didn`t like losing an election, so they were proposing that he send troops out of their barracks, to go seize the voting machines.
That is a military coup, that the president seriously entertained. You had the White House officials, you know, running in, the White House lawyers, this is on December 18th, trying to counteract this insanity that Powell and Flynn were talking about.
You know, Giuliani, hovering around. And I don`t think anything that zany and insane has ever happened at the White House. But there`s substance of it is really the shocking thing, and because Trump in the end he didn`t go with Sydney Powell`s plan for a military coup. He didn`t do what his White House lawyers were advising him to do, which was to finally recognize reality that he lost the election.
He decided on a third course, and that third course was to summon the mob, summon a huge mob to Washington to block, to stop the final certification of his defeat. And so, that was his idea. That was his tweet, that he sent out at 1:42 in the morning after that five hour meeting.
And so, absolutely, this is on him, because he called them in. He fired them up. He used the rhetoric, not just on that day, but in a more than a dozen tweets between that first one and January 6th and in speeches and in everything he did. So, absolutely, that definitely falls on Donald Trump.
O5; And the committee showed today Donald Trump`s clear control over the mob. His control in, first of all, summoning them. It was his idea, January 6th. Suddenly, all sorts of players out there switched their schedule, changed their plans, we`re going to go to Washington on January 6.
[22:44:55]
O`DONNELL: And then also in the end, finally, when finally forced to do this, when he sent out that tweet telling them they should leave — let`s listen to what Stephen Ayres says about how that tweet landed on the people, illegally inside the Capitol?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURPHY: We know that you illegally entered the Capitol that afternoon, and then left the Capitol area later on. What made you decide to leave?
STEPHEN AYRES, CAPITOL RIOTER: Basically, when President Trump put his tweet out, we literally left right after that come out. You know, to me, if he would have done that earlier in the day, 1:30, you know, we wouldn`t be in this — maybe we wouldn`t be in this bad of a situation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And Gene, after establishing Donald Trump`s control over the mob before, during, to the end of the attack on the Capitol, next week, the committee will be showing what Donald Trump was doing, when he was not ordering his people out of the Capitol.
ROBINSON: Absolutely. He was — he was — he was not doing his duty. He was not doing his job. And the reason was that this was his plan. This was the plan he came up with. Not the plan that Sydney Powell came up with. Not the plan that Pat Cipollone came up with.
This was Donald Trump`s idea, to have this revolution at the Capitol. And we know the tragic result. So, don`t blame it on anybody else. Blame it on Donald Trump.
O`DONNELL: And that is the essence of Eugene`s new column in the “Washington Post”. Eugene Robinson, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
ROBINSON: Great to be here, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
Professor Kathleen Belew, an expert on the groups who led the attack on the Capitol will join us next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RASKIN: Some of the online rhetoric turned openly homicidal and white nationalist, such as, “Why don`t we just kill them? Every last Democrat down to the last man, woman, and child?” And “It`s time for the day of the rope. White revolution is the only solution.”
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:47:12]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): You talk about being swept up, so at what point did you break with the Oath Keepers?
JASON VAN TATENHOVE, FORMER OATH KEEPER: There came a point, there were many red flags, and I probably should have broken with them much earlier than I did.
But the straw that broke the camel`s back really came when I walked into a grocery store, and we were living up in a very remote town of Eureka, Montana. And there was a loop, group of core members of the group, the Oath Keepers, and some associates.
And they were having a conversation at that public area, where they were talking about how the Holocaust was not real. And that was, for me, something that I just could not abide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Kathleen Belew, associate professor of history at Northwestern University. She`s the author of “Bringing the War Home: The White Power Movement and Paramilitary America”.
Professor, what is your reaction to the testimony you heard today about the groups involved in planning the attack on the Capitol, and how they carried it out on January 6th?
KATHLEEN BELEW, NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY: I think one of the interesting things we heard today is how much these disparate groups were working together in common cause on January 6th. You know, this is by no means new.
The white power movement and militant right have been a very flexible social movement that have included a whole bunch of different kinds of people, different activists, different groups, ranging from Klan, to skinhead, to Neo-Nazis, to militia style groups.
And it`s been with us for a very long time, not only in the recent past since the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, but stretching all the way back into the 1980s, when a 1983 youth movement declared war on the federal government.
Now, I think it`s very significant that the Oath Keepers, in private, were talking a lot about Holocaust denial, while in public, has that member said (INAUDIBLE) in testimony — excuse me, that affiliate of the group that (INAUDIBLE) in his testimony, they were saying they weren`t a militia. They were saying they were a veteran support group, or a defense group, or an order making group.
These groups are constantly trying to tack to the prevailing opportunity within public opinion, to thread the needle towards recruitment and radicalization. And we see, again, sort of all of this is working exactly as it has in the recent past.
O`DONNELL: What did the prosecutions of hundreds of these defendants, and the leadership of these organizations — what is that doing to the organizations themselves?
[22:54:44]
BELEW: So, I`m a historian so I`m speaking from the perspective of the archive of (INAUDIBLE) in the past. Many of these cases today are still unfolding. A lot of this is still sort of, you know, the ball rolling down the hill.
But seditious conspiracy, which is one of the charges that has been levied against leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers is the idea that the charges that people try to violently overthrow the government of the United States.
It has been notoriously difficult to prove seditious conspiracy, and doing so would have a major impact on the movement. I think that`s one of the reasons that it`s so important that the testimony today did so much to place Trump in the position of accountability, because seditious conspiracy is not a, you know, a spontaneous protest.
And today, we heard over and over again about planning, and how his calls to action were planned, how these groups planned the importing of tactics and the weapons in (INAUDIBLE) — all of this speaks to premeditation and an enormous amount of coordination.
O`DONNELL: Professor Kathleen Belew, thank you very much for joining us again tonight on this important night.
BELEW: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
We`ll be right back
[22:56:03]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s LAST WORD.
“THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE” starts now.