A newly released interview that ex-Trump adviser Steve Bannon conducted with Jeffrey Epstein provides a glimpse into the convicted sex offender’s complicated view of himself and his reflections on his first stint in jail, among other topics.
The interview was recorded on video around 2019 for a sympathetic documentary aimed at rehabilitating Epstein’s image, following his arrest more than a decade earlier on a count of soliciting prostitution, according to his brother, Mark. Bannon, who served as White House chief strategist early in Trump’s first term, is believed to have 15 hours of audio from his conversations with Epstein. He did not immediately respond to MS NOW’s request for comment Monday afternoon.
Bannon has not been accused of or charged with criminal wrongdoing in connection to Epstein’s crimes.
The material — released Friday by the Department of Justice as part of its investigation into the late financier — offers a rare example of extended verbal remarks from Epstein, who died by suicide in a New York jail cell in August 2019 while awaiting trial on federal sex trafficking charges.
About a half-hour into the interview, Epstein speaks about his famously cushy 13-month stint in a Florida jail, from June 2008 to July 2009. Thanks to a plea deal struck by then-U.S. Attorney Alexander Acosta, Epstein was allowed to leave the jail for up to 12 hours a day, six days a week on a work-release program.
But by Epstein’s account, the conditions were still rough.
He said he was in “an 8-by-10 cell with a bed in the back — 6-foot bed in the back — a chrome sink with toilet attached to it, and a little piece of metal sticking out that was supposed to act as a table.”
Bannon repeatedly asked Epstein if he had reflected on how he wound up in jail. Epstein continually denied that he had done so, and refused to take responsibility for what he had been convicted of.
“It never struck you about how to end up in a situation like this?” Bannon asked.
“No, that would be probably mean I would be too self-aware,” Epstein replied.
“You can’t possibly expect me to believe this,” Bannon said.
“I know,” Epstein replied. “I don’t believe it.”
Later, Bannon again pressed Epstein, asking if he had ever had “a moment of awareness of, ‘How could I get myself into this situation?’”
“No, I would just say, how strange that this happens,” Epstein replied. “Just, it’s strange. I’m wearing a jumpsuit and flip-flops.”
Much of the rest of the discussion features Bannon and Epstein debating theories of science and mathematics. At some points, though, these seemingly academic discussions take a real-world turn.
About an hour and a half into the interview, Bannon asked Epstein why money he donated to the Santa Fe Institute, a nonprofit scientific research institute, to “study the complexity of systems mathematically,” was a “total failure.”
Epstein replied: “It’s the failure of science. Because, in fact, to some extent — science doesn’t describe romance. I don’t know why I’m attracted to somebody.”
“I don’t know people are attracted to each other, and some — everyone has the same feeling. They’ve seen someone walk in the room and they say, ‘Oh, that person gives me a creepy feeling,’” Epstein said. “Science has tried to describe, science doesn’t describe what ‘creepy feeling’ means. They just know it’s a creepy feeling.”
The ex-financier proceeded to outline what he believed differentiates men and women.
“I think women, as I said the last time, have an intuitive sense. … They have intuition, they have feelings, and they’re able to deal in the realm of things that men — especially men like myself — find unexplainable,” he said, adding, “Men want to measure everything. Women are not really that interested in measuring.”
Other seemingly off-the-cuff exchanges between the men appeared to offer a peek into Epstein’s psyche.
When Bannon asked Epstein when he thinks human life begins, Epstein demurred, prompting Bannon to reply, “It can’t be measured, you’re just — you just hate making commitments.”
“That’s why I’m not married,” Epstein replied.
Later, Bannon asked if Epstein believed institutions should accept his donations. (In early 2019, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Media Lab rejected a donation from Epstein as scrutiny mounted over the allegations against him, prompted by an investigation published in late 2018 by the Miami Herald.)
“Is your money dirty money?” Bannon asked Epstein.
“No, it’s not,” Epstein said.
“Why is it not dirty money?” Bannon asked.
“Because I earned it,” Epstein replied.
“You earned it advising the worst people in the world, right, that do enormous bad things just to make more money,” Bannon said.
“I think it’s a legitimate question,” Epstein replied, adding, “Ethics is always a complicated subject.”
But perhaps the most striking exchanges came in the last minute of the tape, when Bannon asked, “Do you think you’re the devil himself?”
“No, but I do have a good mirror,” Epstein replied.
“It’s a serious question,” Bannon continued. “Do you think you’re the
devil himself?”
“I don’t know. Why would you say that?” Epstein asked.
“Because you have all the attributes,” Bannon replied. “You’re incredibly smart. You remember the devil is —”
“The devil’s smart?” Epstein said as he interrupted.
“The devil’s brilliant,” Bannon retorted. “You read Milton’s Paradise Lost —”
“No,” Epstein said. “The devil scares me.”
The interview ended abruptly a few seconds later.
Also included in the Friday document dump was a text exchange from December 2018 that appears to be between Bannon and Epstein discussing — among other things — President Donald Trump’s assistant at the time, Madeleine Westerhout. The exchanges imply that she and Trump had an intimate relationship, which both Westerhout and Trump have strenuously rejected.
“He’s [sic] much more calm, but the sight of him in the residence in his undies is hard to fathom,” Epstein wrote. “I’ll give you details when I see you.”
Westerhout did not respond to MS NOW’s request for comment.
White House spokesperson Abigail Jackson told MS NOW in a statement on Monday: “This is a salacious and false rumor that has been proven to be fiction.”
MS NOW is reviewing the documents released by the Justice Department in collaboration with journalists from NBC, AP, CNBC and CBS. Journalists from each newsroom worked together to examine the documents and share information about what is in them. Each outlet is responsible for its own independent news coverage of the documents.
Update, 9:09 p.m. ET: This story was updated with a response from the White House.
Julianne McShane is a breaking news reporter for MS NOW who also covers the politics of abortion and reproductive rights. You can send her tips from a non-work device on Signal at jmcshane.19 or follow her on X or Bluesky.