Updated
Summary
The third live hearing of the January 6 Committee focuses on the pressure campaign of Trump and his supporters on Vice President Mike Pence. Rep. Pete Aguilar (D-CA) joined the panel to discuss the January 6 Committee live hearings today.
Transcript
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST (voiceover): The January 6 investigation makes its case day three.
A losing presidential candidate tries to force his running mate, the Vice President, to throw out the election results to overthrow the U.S. government.
GREG JACOB, FORMER COUNSEL TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: When Mr. Eastman came in, he said, I`m here to request that you reject the electors.
MADDOW: New witness testimony today about how the President tried to force it to an end.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear any part of the phone call?
NICHOLAS LUNA, TRUMP`S FORMER ASSISTANT: I remember hearing the word wimp. Either he called him a wimp. I remember he said, you are a wimp.
MADDOW: New information today on the danger the Vice President faced as a result, the threats to his life, and the president knowing that that`s what he had done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Pence has betrayed the United States of America.
MADDOW: New evidence today showing the people working with the President to enact the scheme they knew what they were doing was illegal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Eastman`s email stated, “I`ve decided that I should be on the pardon list if that is still in the works.”
MADDOW: And a crucial warning about the enduring threat to the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump and his allies and supporters are a clear and present danger to American democracy.
MADDOW: Tonight, the member of the investigation who led today`s hearing, Congressman Pete Aguilar. Plus, Nicolle Wallace, Joy Reid, Chris Hayes, Lawrence O`Donnell, Ari Melber, Stephanie Ruhle in our special primetime recap of the third day of the January 6 hearings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW (on camera): Good evening from MSNBC headquarters. I`m Rachel Maddow, joined here by my beloved colleagues, Chris Hayes, Joy Reid, Lawrence O`Donnell, Nicolle Wallace. We will have more of our colleagues from MSNBC joining us here over the course of this special two-hour primetime recap of today`s public hearing from the January 6 investigation.
The hearing today started at 1:00 p.m. Eastern. If you were able to watch any of the hearing live as it happened, or if you weren`t, maybe you were at school or at work or you just couldn`t spare three-plus hours in the middle of the day, well, you are in the right place, my friend. The Watergate hearings in 1973 which of course changed the course of American history, those hearings all happen during the work day. PBS at the time re- aired the daytime hearings at night in full. The broadcast networks aired summaries in primetime of what had happened during the days hearings and Watergate.
Well, following that precedent of our TV news forefathers, we have committed that on each night of these daytime hearings, we will all meet here together to bring you not just explanation, not just reaction, not just commentary, but a definitive recap, a definitive summary of what happened today, even on days that are my mom`s birthday. Happy birthday, mom. We want you not to have missed a thing.
I also need to tell you that in addition to the recap that we`re going to do, we are expecting to be joined this hour by Congressman Pete Aguilar of California. If you watched any of the hearing today, or you`ve seen any of the footage about it, you saw a lot of him. He led most of today`s hearing. He`s going to be joining us here live during our coverage here tonight.
Let`s jump in. Let`s start. In the broadest strokes, today`s hearing was about why the attack on the Capitol happened on January 6 in the first place. Why that day? The hearing was not interestingly about where the plot came from, to have Vice President Mike Pence monkey wrench the finalization of the election results that day, the actual origins of that plot remains still sort of murky which is interesting.
But what we now know for sure what today`s hearing showed definitively was that the people who advanced this plot, who strategize with the President about how to enact it on January 6, they apparently knew that the plot was illegal. They had acknowledged that themselves both among themselves in discussions that were testified to today, and also in some cases in writing. They also told the President that the plot was illegal, but they still nevertheless tried to pull it off to disastrous and very, very dangerous effect.
So, first, we heard from two live witnesses today, a conservative former federal appeals court judge named Michael Luttig, a conservative hero, somebody who had been at shortlist candidate for Republican nominees to the United States Supreme Court for much of his career. Judge Luttig advised vice president — Vice President Pence`s staff in the lead up to January 6 as to whether or not Vice President Pence really was legally allowed to do what President Trump was trying to force him to do.
[20:05:16]
Judge Luttig advised Pence`s staff, and importantly, he stated publicly at the dawn of January 6 that Vice President Pence actually didn`t have the power to do what Trump was asking, that it would be illegal and unconstitutional for him to do that. It was a very important intervention in the cascading events that led up to January 6, in the moment. Judge Luttig played an important role. Today, he was an important witness. He spoke slowly, he spoke haltingly at times. But when he made a forceful point, he made a forceful point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. MICHAEL LUTTIG, FORMER JUDGE OF THE U.S. COURT OF APPEALS FOURTH CIRCUIT: There was no basis in the Constitution or laws of the United States at all, for the theory espoused by Mr. Eastman at all, none.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The Mr. Eastman of that quote was the central focus of today`s hearing. John Eastman is the Trump lawyer who appears to have been the driving force behind pursuing this January 6 plot that hinged on Vice President Pence and these theories about what pence could do to throw out the election result that specific day. The other live witness today was Vice President Pence`s chief legal adviser, a man named Greg Jacob, who testified today at length about his apparently miserable and protracted engagement over multiple days with this Trump lawyer, John Eastman, as Eastman tried to get Pence and Pence`s staff to agree that they would do this thing, that they would have Pence throw out the election results on January 6.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACOB: And I concluded by saying, John, in light of everything that we`ve discussed, can`t you — we just both agree that this is a terrible idea? And he couldn`t quite bring himself to say yes to that, but he very clearly said, well, yes, I see, we`re not going to be able to persuade you to do this. And that was how the meeting concluded.
MADDOW: The discussion between the witness today that we heard from Greg Jacob and Dr. John Eastman, this lawyer working for Trump on this plot, ended up being the sort of throughline of today`s entire hearing. But it revealed one very clear thing that I`m not sure was ever clear before today, with all of the investigation that we`ve seen, all of the public- facing reporting on this. We finally got the connection between the illegality of their plot, and the fact that there was violence.
A big portion of the hearing today was about how John Eastman, Trump`s lawyer on this issue, actually knew and admitted that this plot he and the President were pursuing was illegal, violated federal law. That has all sorts of implications, even if you don`t care much about this guy, John Eastman. And we`ll get to all of that over the course of this evening.
But importantly, I think the main point of what this hearing showed today that we did not previously have evidence of is that it was a really quick hop for these guys. From them pursuing a strategy they knew was illegal to the violence that we saw in the capitol attack, and to the violence that was threatened against Mike Pence himself. Here is how that connection worked as the investigators and the witnesses laid it out today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): Even Dr. Eastman knew his theory didn`t hold water. Mr. Jacob, you discussed and even debated this theory at length with Dr. Eastman. Did Dr. Eastman ever tell you what he thought the U.S. Supreme Court would do if it had to decide this issue?
JACOB: Yes. We had an extended discussion, an hour and a half to two hours on January 5th. And when I pressed him on the point I said, John, if the Vice President did what you were asking him to do, we would lose nine to nothing in the Supreme Court, wouldn`t we? And he initially started it, well, I think maybe he would lose only seven to two.
And after some further discussion acknowledged, well, yeah, you`re right, we would lose nine nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: So, the president`s lawyer John Eastman acknowledges that the plot he and President Trump are suggesting is against the law. If these actions supported by his legal theories were reviewed by the Supreme Court. He acknowledges they would lose nine to nothing at the Supreme Court, unconstitutional, illegal, and he knows that.
But the crucial point we learned today for the first time is that these guys did not necessarily see that as a problem because the Trump lawyer John Eastman said he believed — it didn`t matter that the court would strike it down nine zero if this ever came before them. This is never going to come before them, or at least they would never agree to review it.
So, John Eastman contended they could just pull off this plot. They could just do it even though it was against the law because the Supreme Court would never stop them. These conversations happened in the presence of the President himself. The implication of that is that President Trump himself knew that the plan was to try to pull off an illegal plot and the expectation that the Supreme Court would let them do it.
[20:10:26]
AGUILAR: Did Dr. Eastman admit in front of the President that his proposal would violate the Electoral Count Act?
JACOB: So, during that meeting on the fourth, I think I raised the problem that both of Mr. Eastman`s proposals would violate several provisions of the Electoral Count Act. Mr. Eastman acknowledged that that was the case. when I raised concerns that that position would likely lose in court, his view was that the court simply wouldn`t get involved. They would invoke the political question doctrine and therefore we could have some comfort proceeding with that path.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: We could have some comfort proceeding with that path, the court wouldn`t get involved, they would invoke the political question doctrine. He was confident the Supreme Court would look at that and say, this is a political matter, we shouldn`t get involved, so let the political process play out. The success of the plan would depend on that, would depend on the court not getting involved. Again, they believed if the court didn`t get involved, they`d lose nine to nothing. They wanted to go ahead with it anyway, because they were convinced the court wouldn`t get involved.
And Greg Jacobs, the witness today, legal adviser to Vice President Pence, then sewed this up, and we got to see this for the first time as the country today. He sewed this up in terms of what they were proposing would mean for the country, and how it would get us very quickly to blood in the streets.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
As we`ve covered, he acknowledged it would lose nine oh in the Supreme Court. He again tried to say but I don`t think the courts will get involved in this. They`ll invoke the political
question doctrine. And so if the courts stay out of it, that will mean that we`ll have the 10 days for the states to weigh in and resolve it. And then the — you know, they`ll — they`ll send back the Trump slates of electors and the people will be able to accept that.
And I expressed my vociferous disagreement with that point. I did not think that this was a political question. Among other things, if the courts did not step in to resolve this there was nobody else to resolve it. You would be in a situation where you have a standoff between the President of the United States and counterfactually the Vice President of the United
States saying that we`ve exercised authorities that constitutionally we think we have by which we have deemed ourselves the winners of the election.
You would have an opposed House and Senate disagreeing with that. You would have an unprecedented constitutional jump ball situation with that standoff. And as I expressed to him, that issue might well then have to be decided in the streets, because if we can`t work it out politically, we`ve already seen how charged up people are about this election. And so, it would be a — a disastrous situation to be in.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: If you`re planning on seizing power, by means that you acknowledge are illegal, and you are counting on the courts to stay out of it, let you do it. Well, you`re going to have the question of who holds power in this country decided in the streets, decided basically by combat.
Greg Jacobs, the President`s chief counsel was not alone apparently in making this case. Again, this case that has never been made to the public before about how these ideas were connected, the illegality, the acknowledged the legality of what they were doing, and why there was violence on January 6, and why violence was threatened against the vice president.
It was not just Greg Jacob making this case that this illegal plot they were trying to pull off knowing that was illegal would lead to bloodshed. Here also from today`s hearing was Trump White House lawyer Eric Herschmann saying he too confronted this Trump lawyer, John Eastman, with that and that Eastman seemed to think that that price was sort of expected and maybe OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC HERSCHMANN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ATTORNEY: He described for me what he thought the ambiguity was in the statute, and he was walking through it at that time. And I said hold on a second. I want to understand what you`re saying. You`re saying that you believe the vice president, acting as president of the Senate,
can be the sole decision-maker as to, under your theory, who becomes the next president of the United States.
And he said yes. And I said are you out of your effing mind, right? And I ƒ_” you know, that was pretty blunt. I said you`re completely crazy. I said you`re going to turn around and tell 78-plus million people in this country that your theory is this is how you`re going to invalidate their votes, because you think the election was stolen?
And I said they`re not going to tolerate, that, said you`re going to cause riots in the streets.
And he said words to the effect of there has been violence in the history of our country to protect the democracy or protect the republic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:15:45]
MADDOW: You`re going to cause riots in the street. We`ve had violence before. Once violence is accepted as the cost of admission for the plot that you are trying to pull off — again, remember, at this point, they`re talking about expected violence as the likely result if their plot works, if they persuade Pence to throw at the election results. They are expecting violence and have to win it in the streets.
But once, that`s the plan, once that`s what you`re operating under the assumption of, once violence is part of the cost of admission, then more threats of violence than threats against Mike Pence that he ought to go along with the plan, threats against him to do it or else. Those are no longer far-fetched, either. And we`re going to get to that part of today`s hearing next in our summation. But before we get too far down this road, I want to talk about sort of what we have seen thus far.
Chris, I want to start with you. And first, you know, tell me if you think this was new or not in terms of this connection between the acknowledged illegality of it and the threat of violence.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Oh, I think it was absolutely. And I think that quote we just played as that was the one that has stuck with me ever since. I mean, basically saying, you`re going to have violence in the streets and Eastman being like, well, you know, sometimes, you know, blood of tyrants, yadda, yadda.
I mean, the thing that I keep coming back to was the feeling that I had in my gut up to January 6, and partly because my wife Kate is a lawyer and was very read in on this stuff. And I think that people didn`t recognize it then and they still don`t recognize it now but Greg Jacob really brought it to bear. But for the pence decision, the question of what came next was unresolved, that if Pence had gone the wrong way, that in some ways that sort of evil deviousness of the plan was that they had identified the proper weak link in the constitutional chain, that they had found the spot in the bank to break into to pull off the heist. There was one person to beat. There was one alarm to get through. It was Mike Pence.
But had they gotten through, had they pressured Mike Pence, had they gotten to Mike Pence the phrase that Greg Jacob used, which is a good phrase, the constitutional jump ball, there was no roadmap. If Mike Pence went into that joint session on January 6 and said under my constitutional authority and authority under Electoral Count Act, I say that these electors are no good.
And that — like, the what comes next question which stalked — it was stalking Kate in those days up to January 6, my wife who was a law professor — constitutional law professor, it was stalking me. And I think there was always a sense of like, ah, this is all crazy or comes throwing a tantrum. It`s like, no, like they for all of their weird incompetence and bullying and the crankiness of John Eastman, the plan they happened upon, because it turned on one man, and the authority that the statute had given him on that day, they were not that far. And that`s the thing that Greg Jacob —
MADDOW: They weren`t wrong, but it was arguable.
HAYES: They were wrong but they had found the correct leverage point. And they had found the correct portal through which to essentially warped the nation from a constitutional democracy to one in which power was decided in the streets. And the portal was Mike Pence, and a few of his advisers, and Judge Luttig who basically say, you shall not pass, thank God.
MADDOW: Yes, Joy?
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: And I`m so glad that you said one man, because — and not one office. They didn`t find the portal through the office of the vice presidency, because the quote that has stuck with me all day is Greg — is also from Greg Jacob where he says to Eastman, do you really want, you know, Kamala Harris to have that power? I mean, wow, I wish Al Gore had had that memo back in 2001 —
MADDOW: He could have just said, I declare I win Florida.
REID: I am president.
HAYES: So ordered.
REID: So ordered. He`s like, I wish he had that memo. But he didn`t. And Eastman says back to him, oh, no.
HAYES: Right.
REID: Al Gore shouldn`t have that power. Nope, Kamala Harris shouldn`t have that power. But we should do this today.
HAYES: Yes.
REID: So, he didn`t mean the vice presidency was the portal, he met this one guy. And then if he can weaken him. I was struck by the relentlessness of Eastman that he keeps coming back to Greg Jacob over and over. How about this way of doing it? How about that way of doing it? They knew that were – – these were uncertified electors. You can`t just say I declare these electors. Maybe this group here were the electors now. We decided — they`re not certified, but they just — they were relentless and they tried to break Pence. And you`re absolutely right. We were one Mike Pence away from a coup.
[20:20:28]
MADDOW: And to that point about the relentlessness of this, I think Eastman has made it eminently clear, even since this has all happened, as he`s been fighting with the committee, that he was not acting on his own behalf, that he was the lawyer for the President of the United States. The President was his client. That is why he was doing this. That`s where the relentlessness came from.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Yes. And you can tell that in the way Eastman leaves the room having agreed that, you know, the best way to do it is to simply throw this back to the States, not just reject electors outright, throw it back to the states. He comes back in the room the next day saying, you know, let`s do the thing — let`s do the thing that I said yesterday we shouldn`t do.
Well, you know exactly what intervenes there. He talks to Trump and the client sends him back in and says, this is what I want.
MADDOW: You conceded what? We`re not conceding that. That`s —
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Because Trump won a victory that day. He didn`t want — send this back to the states. Let them send us new electors. Trump wanted the Biden elections that were won in Arizona to be negated to zero. And the same thing with Georgia zero so that the total elector majority count would be — you could get it right there that day, Trump would have been.
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: I think the person that testified to Trump`s role in this for the first time in these hearings is a live witness was Luttig. Luttig`s first comments for about a revolution that would have ensued if Mike Pence had followed his President Donald Trump. He`s the first live witness that has put Donald Trump atop the chain of command not of the United States government, but of the coup plot.
And I thought that was — you know, Luttig was as you described, very dramatic, at times halting, but he chose his words so carefully that they landed with the gut punch. He was advising Pence, he had to advice Pence, who told you to do it. It was Trump. And he`s the first live witness to have testified to Trump being a top the chain of command for the coup plot.
The other thing. Congresswoman Elaine Luria on the Select Committee said to me today that the method of the committee is to go through each of the topics and show this sort of cacophony of voices proving the same thing beyond a reasonable doubt. I think we`ll get to the end there won`t be a debate about whether there`s enough (INAUDIBLE).
I mean, the first day was about proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump lost and he knew it. The second one was about proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Eastern had this plot and they knew it was illegal. And then to your point today, it was proving beyond any doubt that they knew there would be violence and that Mike Pence was threatened. And that went all the way to Trump and he greenlit it.
MADDOW: Yes. And that dramatic testimony that we got today and the dramatic footage that we got today about the link between what Trump was knowingly doing and the violence directed toward Mike Pence. The violent threats directed toward Pence is going to be what we show you next.
Up next, we will have a closer look than we have ever seen before of what the threat of violence meant to Pence and the President`s connection to it. It was very dramatic stuff. We`re going to recap that for you next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m hearing reports that Pence caved. I`m telling you, if Pence caved, we`re going to drag (BLEEP) through the streets. You (BLEEP) politicians are going to get drugged through the streets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[20:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUTTIG: That declaration of Donald Trump as the next president would have plunged America into what I believe would have been tantamount to a revolution within a constitutional crisis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Before today`s hearing, there had been public reporting that Vice President Mike Pence`s chief of staff had alerted the Secret Service about increased bodily threats to Pence because he was going to say no to the President`s demands that he throw out the election results. We saw Pence`s chief of staff today testify about that in his deposition.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC SHORT, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO VICE PRESIDENT PENCE: The concern was for the vice president`s security, and so I wanted to make sure the head of the vice president`s Secret Service was aware that — that likely, as these disagreements became ore public, that the president would lash out in some way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: The President would lash out in a way that required Secret Service attention in terms of the Vice President`s bodily integrity. The threat was very real, very acute to the Vice President and his staff as they started to realize what the consequences might be of Mr. Pence refusing President Trump`s demands. We then today at the hearing got this remarkable sequence presented by the investigators about a final phone call from President Trump to Vice President Pence on the morning of January 6.
On this call President Trump apparently borates the Vice President, but the seriousness of the moment appears to be very, very grave. It appears to be from the Vice President side just serious as a heart attack. But on the President`s side of that call, it appears to have been more of like a party atmosphere. It was a very strange portrayal very compelling testimony and tape.
This includes testimony from multiple people, including the President`s daughter Ivanka. It involves never before seen photos from the moment of the phone call in the Oval Office, just a remarkable set of evidence, particularly for this contrast between how Trump was handling these matters on his end, and the nightmare that he was creating for his vice president. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AGUILAR: Mr. Jacob, did you go to the Vice President`s residences on the morning of January 6th?
JACOB: Yes.
AGUILAR: Who else was with you?
JACOB: Marc Short, Devin O`Malley, our communications director, and Chris Hodgson, our legislative affairs director.
AGUILAR: And did the Vice President have a call with the President that morning?
JACOB: He did.
AGUILAR: Were you with the Vice President during the call?
JACOB: So we had been putting the — the Vice President had finalized his statement overnight. We were in the process of proofing it so that we could get that out. And we were told that a call had come in from the President. The Vice President stepped out of the room to take that call and no staff went with him.
AGUILAR: The President had several family members with him in the Oval that morning for that call.
I`d like to show you what they and others told the Select Committee about that call along with never before seen photographs of the President on that call from the National Archives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERSCHMANN: When I got in, somebody called me and said that the family and others were in the oval. And do I want to come up. So I ƒ_” I went upstairs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who do you recall being in the Oval Office?
HERSCHMANN: Don Jr., Eric, Laura, Kimberly, I believe Meadows was there. At some point Ivanka came in.
I. TRUMP:
It wasn`t a specific formal discussion. It was very sort of loose and casual.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So then you said at some point there`s a telephone conversation between the President and the Vice President. Is that correct?
HERSCHMANN: Yes.
I. TRUMP: When I entered the office the second time he was on the telephone with who I later found out to be was the ƒ_” the Vice President.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could you hear the Vice President or only hear the President`s end?
HERSCHMANN: Only hear the President`s end. And at some point it started off as a calmer tone, everything, and then it became heated.
I. TRUMP: The conversation was — was pretty heated.
HERSCHMANN: I think till it became somewhat, you know, louder tone, I don`t think anyway was paying attention to it initially.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear any part of the phone call, even if just this ƒ_” the end that the President was speaking from?
NICHOLAS LUNA, FORMER ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: I did. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. And what did you hear?
LUNA: So, as I was dropping off the note, I — my memory — I remember hearing the word wimp. Either he called him a wimp — I don`t remember if he said you are a wimp, you`ll be a wimp. Wimp is the word I remember.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s also been reported that the President said to the Vice President that — something to the effect of you don`t have the courage to make a hard decision.
KEITH KELLOGG, FORMER PENCE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Worse. I remember exactly it was something like that. Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you —
KELLOGG: — Being ƒ_” you`re ƒ_” you`re not tough enough to make the call.
I. TRUMP: It was a different tone than I`d heard him take with the Vice President before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Ms. Trump share with you any more details about what had happened or any details about what had happened in the Oval Office that morning?
JULIE RADFORD, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO IVANKA TRUMP: That her dad had just had an upsetting conversation with the Vice President.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you recall anything about her demeanor either during the meeting or when you encountered her in Dan Scavino`s office?
HERSCHMANN: I don`t remember specifically. I mean, I think she was uncomfortable over the fact that there was obviously that type of interaction between the two of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something to the effect this is ƒ_” the wording is wrong. I made the wrong decision four or five years ago. And the ƒ_” the word that she related to you that the President called the Vice President, I apologize for being impolite, but do you remember what she said her father called him?
JULIE RADFORD: The P word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: Mr. Jacob, how would you describe the demeanor of the Vice President following the call ƒ_” following that call with the President?
JACOB: When he came back into the room, I`d say that he was steely, determined, grim.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW: Steely, determined, grim. After the president screamed at him in front of the big gathering of random White House staffers, and his daughter, and his sons, and his son`s girlfriend, and everybody else had just screamed at the Vice President, that he`s a wimp also, a word that starts with P and is sometimes used in an affectionate way to talk about cats.
[20:35:06]
That was the morning of January 6. Congressman Aguilar then explained that the committee has evidence that when President Trump received a draft of the speech he was due to give to the January 6 rally later on that day, the draft that he received contained to no reference to Mike Pence at all. But the President himself changed that and wrote in multiple references to Pence. And then we saw from the investigation today how that targeting by the president played out, as they say, in the streets.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m telling you what, I`m hearing that Pence — hearing the Pence just caved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that true?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t hear it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m hear ƒ_” I`m hearing reports that Pence caved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m telling you, if Pence caved, we`re going to drag motherfuckers through the streets. You fucking politicians are going to get fucking dragged through the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess the hope is that there`s such a show of force here that Pence will decide to do the right thing, according to Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring him out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring out Pence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring him out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring out Pence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring him out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring out Pence.
CROWD: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing but a traitor, and he deserves to burn with the rest of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, this — so this all escalated after Pence — what happened? Did Pence — Pence didn`t do what we wanted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pence voted against Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. And that`s when all this started?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. That`s when we marched on the Capitol. We`ve been shot at with rubber bullets, tear gas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just heard that Mike Pence is not going to reject any fraudulent electoral votes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re a traitor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. You`ve heard it here first. Mike Pence has betrayed the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fuck you, Mike Pence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Pence has betrayed this President and he has betrayed the people of the United States and we will never, ever forget.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s real simple. Pence betrayed us, which apparently everybody knew he was going to, and the President mentioned it like five times when he talked. You can go back and watch the President`s video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is our Capitol. Let`s be respectful to it. There`s four million people coming in, so there`s a lot of control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We love the cops. We love the cops.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s only a matter of time. Justice is coming.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW: Justice is coming, left as a threat for the Vice President on the dais as he had been presiding over the electoral account. In addition to that footage from today, the investigators reported today that an informant inside the Proud Boys, the pro-Trump — pro Trump paramilitary group has told the FBI that in fact had the proud boys been able to find Mike Pence on January 6, they did intend to kill him, also House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
They reported today that before Trump sent his tweet at 2:24 p.m. on January 6, targeting the Vice President anew, he`d already said everything he said about Vice President Pence at his speech. He then targeted him anew with a tweet after 2:00 p.m. The tweet said that Mike Pence didn`t have the courage to do what should be done before President Trump sent that additional sort of target out concerning his vice president.
Investigators said today that President Trump had already been told at that point that the Capitol had been breached and that a violent attack was underway. They also reported that when Trump sent that tweet, the rioters themselves surged forward.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AGUILAR: Our investigation found that immediately after the President`s 2:24 p.m. tweet, the crowds both outside the Capitol and inside the Capitol surged. The crowds inside the Capitol were able to overwhelm the law enforcement presence, and the Vice President was quickly evacuated from his ceremonial Senate office to a secure location within the Capitol complex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By 2:24 p.m., the Secret Service had moved Vice President Pence from the Senate chamber to his office across the hall.
CHRIS HODGSON, FORMER PENCE DIRECTOR OF LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS: The noise from the rioters became audible, at which point we recognized that maybe they had gotten into the building.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then, President Trump tweeted Mike Pence didn`t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our Constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. USA demands the truth.
[20:40:05]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring out Pence. Bring out Pence.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: It was clear that it was escalating and escalating quickly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.
MATTHEWS: So, then when that tweet — the Mike Pence tweet was sent out I remember us saying that that was the last thing that needed to be tweeted at that moment. The situation was already bad, and so it felt like he was pouring gasoline on the fire by tweeting that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 30 seconds later, rioters already inside the Capitol opened the East Rotunda door just down the hall. And just 30 seconds after that, rioters breached the crypt one floor below the Vice President.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Secret Service couldn`t control the situation and do their job of keeping him safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At 2:26 p.m., Secret Service rushed Vice President Pence down the stairs.
JACOB: I think they had been trying to figure out whether they had a clear route to get us to where there ƒ_” it was that they wanted to move us to.
UNKNOWN: We moved pretty quickly down the stairs and through various hallways and tunnels to the secure location. Upon arriving there, there was further discussion as to whether or not we were going to leave the Capitol complex or stay where we were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Vice President Pence and his team ultimately were led to a secure location where they stayed for the next four and a half hours, barely missing rioters a few feet away.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADDOW: A few feet away. We`ve still got one last point to get to made at the hearing today about the safety of Vice President Mike Pence. And what Mike Pence apparently thought President Trump might be capable of toward him in that moment. So, that is still to come. We`ll run down that from the hearing as well, sort of last portion of our recap tonight.
But again, before we get to that last point, I want to make sure we digest what we are seeing as we go. Lawrence, some of this we knew before, but not all — certainly we didn`t know all of it. And I certainly don`t think that we knew about the interactions between the President and Vice President.
O`DONNELL: Well, we have Bob Woodward`s version of it which is almost — actually it has — I was going to say it`s word for word what we heard today. It`s more than word for word. Bob Woodward`s book has more words in it about that conversation, including it has Mike Pence in that conversation with Donald Trump saying, I tried everything. I tried every way to try to get around this and I couldn`t find anything. That`s the person who we heard from Greg Jacob today, never wavered.
From the first moment that Mike Pence raised this question of what happens on January 6, they — his aides say Mike Pence believed that he had no choice just like Al Gore had no choice. And he never wavered in that. And we heard Jacob just say in this video that he was steely and determined when it came out of that phone call with the President on January 6. I wish he was steely and determined on December 6 when he could have said the Vice President has no choice.
And so this drama, this tragedy was so much a product of Mike Pence`s deliberate, cowardly silence for one full month never telling the country ever that the Vice President had no choice. And he chose to tell the country that at 1:00 p.m. on January 6, when that guy with the beard was on his way to the Capitol. And on his way to the Capitol, that guy finds out that Mike Pence just now betrayed us. Would that guy have gone to the Capitol? Would he have gone to Washington if Mike Pence said a month ago, nothing can happen on January 6. So, Mike Pence, the guy who does the right thing in the end, the question is why did you wait till the end?
HAYES: There`s something about the facts as they have been established, right? And I think it`s such a good point, right. The narrative suspense, the disappointment, the crowd surging is all born of the fact that they allow the bubble get inflated, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe.
LAWRENCE: Pence did that.
HAYES: Yes, yes, Pence. But the other thing about today, I mean, establishing clearly they knew there was violence at the Capitol when he sent the tweet. I think the most reasonable interpretation of the facts, not necessarily the definitive one, but the most reasonable interpretation of the facts as introduced is the President of the United States tried to get the Vice President killed.
Saying that sentence sounds a little nuts, but the — but the most reasonable — and that — and would close the loop for me today on this was the definitive establishing in the testimony today that they knew when he sent the tweet. That was always it seemed clear at the — at the time. We were all watching it on TV. But the fact he had been briefed, the fact that he had told him how hairy it had gotten, how scary it had gotten that there were internal communication going to the president and he sent that tweet, it is very difficult to find an interpretation that is not up the President of the United States attempting to sick the crowd on the Vice President.
[20:45:09]
MADDOW: You know who we should get checked out with, who we should ask? Congressman Pete Aguilar who is standing by. He`s going to be joining us right after this break. Congressman Aguilar led the hearing today. He is going to be joining us here live right after this. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AGUILAR: The President latched on to a dangerous theory and would not let go because he was convinced it would keep him in office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Congressman Pete Aguilar Democrat of California who lead day three of the January 6 hearings today. Joining us now, I`m happy to say, is Congressman Aguilar. Congressman, I know it has been a long and intense day for you. Thanks for being with us.
AGUILAR: Thanks for having me, Rachel.
MADDOW: Tell us about the significance of all the evidence you showed today that John Eastman and presumed — according to your evidence, the President himself, both knew that the plot that they were pursuing on January 6 involving the Vice President, they knew it was illegal. Why is that important?
AGUILAR: Well, it`s important to build off of the last hearing that we had, which established that the President knew that he lost the election. And so, now, he knows he lost the election. Now, we`re getting into November and December. And from a timeline perspective, they`re failing lawsuits, 62 of federal and state lawsuits that they lost. And so, now, the pressure builds getting to January 6 where they latch on to this thoroughly debunked Eastman strategy, you know, that Judge Carter, a federal judge, called you know, a coup in search of a legal theory.
And so that`s what they gravitated to, is the only opportunity to hold power to stay in power to stay in office, the President latched on to this dangerous idea.
WALLACE: Congressman, it`s Nicolle Wallace. Thanks for talking to us tonight. Some of the evidence introduced, make clear that you know a whole lot about from photos and from testimony from Mr. Jacobs about Donald Trump not calling the Pences. Do you find Mike Pence`s phone records?
AGUILAR: I`m not going to get into all the evidence that we have. But I will say that, you know, we have just, you know, mountains of information. And we`re trying to use the most relevant and compelling pieces to help, you know, share this story with the American public. There is some information that we don`t have. And as we have highlighted by sending letters to members of Congress and others, there are some people who don`t want to come forward and share what they know. But we — there`s a lot of evidence that we have. In subsequent hearings, we will talk about additional information that is new.
REID: Hi, Congressman, Joy Reid here. I want to ask about Ginni Thomas. Now, our understanding is that the committee would like to speak with her. What profit of value do you hope to get from that? Is it — the connection to Eastman is obvious. But given the fact that there`s really not much that can be done about her husband`s role, what is the value you think could be — could come from that testimony?
AGUILAR: Good to see you again, Joy. You know, I think it`s just the fact that — and both the chair and the vice chair have indicated that, you know, we would, you know, reach out to Ginni Thomas, just like they have indicated that we`ve reached out to, you know, hundreds of other individuals who we have had interviews with.
You know, our threshold test is always going to be does someone offer evidence and information that can help us in our investigation? And if they meet that threshold test, you know, oftentimes they`re asked to, to, you know, come in and ask for an interview. And so, I think what the chair and vice chair have indicated is that, you know, we do believe that we have information that is, you know, would be helpful to have a conversation with her.
So — but we`re not treating that unlike any other conversations. We`ve had 1000 interviews in total. And so, we just want to continue to build the story and gather the information and get to the truth.
REID: And you may or may not answer this question, but I`m going to ask it anyway. Is the — at least part of the belief here that Virginia Thomas might have known what was the basis of the belief that the Supreme Court would not take a case related to the attempt to steal the election. Or is the idea to try to find out whether or not her husband, Clarence Thomas, was somehow in the know, about his wife`s decision to attempt to overturn the election?
AGUILAR: Yes, I won`t get into any of the investigative questions that we would, you know, offer. Again, this is just about, you know, gathering information. And so, you know, what, 1000 people — more than 1000 people have come forward to date. Each of those discussions in interviews, you know, we just seek to gather more information. And so, sometimes they`re conversational, sometimes they`re transcribe transcribed formal interviews, oftentimes, it`s just, you know, witnesses sharing what they know. And we would hope that anyone who offers — who has information that could be helpful to our investigation would share.
HAYES: Congressman, Chris Hayes here. I had just said that the one of the striking takeaways, I think, of today`s testimony, particularly the establishing definitively that President Trump knew that there was a very, very scary security situation at the Capitol when he tweeted up Mike Pence. There`s a reading of the evidence as you have introduced that the President was trying to get his Vice President hurt or injured or worse. Is that a fair reading of the evidence?
[20:55:24]
AGUILAR: I think it`s a fair reading of the evidence that the President was very much indifferent. And that, you know, above all else, he just wanted to stay in office and to stay in power. And when he woke up on January 6, it`s more than likely, he felt that he still could, you know, be president and have a path and have the Vice President, you know, set aside those electoral votes.
You know, that`s pretty dangerous, but we know this because the tweets himself, you know, 1:00 a.m. on January 6, you know, tweeting at Mike Pence, you know, tweeting at someone and wanting all of those mentions landing in their Twitter feed is something — you know, he wanted to just continue building the pressure. 8:00 a.m. — 8:00 a.m. tweet, build the pressure, build the pressure.
And it`s very clear that, you know, when he — and then the — unfortunately for Vice President Pence, the January 6 morning phone call at 11:20 a.m., you know, led to some difficult conversations and then he goes on the Ellipse. He knows the Vice President isn`t going to do what he wants him to do and he basically points at the Capitol and tells them you know, that`s the person who`s responsible.
MADDOW: California Congressman Pete Aguilar, member of the January 6 investigation, after a very long day, sir, thank you.
AGUILAR: Thanks, Rachel.
MADDOW: All right, we got much more to come. Our special coverage of day three of the January 6 hearings continues. Up next, something brand new we learned today. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Select Committee is obtained never before seen photos from the National Archives that show Vice President Pence sheltering in a secure underground location because rioters overwhelmed the Capitol.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)