Updated
Summary
The January 6 investigation culminates the Republican Party`s threat to U.S. democracy as they are working to stop Democrats from winning in the elections, destabilizing the American voters like what is happening in Wisconsin. Cassidy Hutchinson was threatened before her testimony in Congress. In the week since Republican justices on the Supreme Court took away a woman`s right to choose, more than 80 county prosecutors across the country have vowed not to enforce laws that criminalize abortion. When Democrats Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff became Georgia`s first Democratic senators since 2005 on the heels of Joe Biden`s victory, it shocked a lot of people, including Trump Republicans who turned their disbelief and the outcome into the big lie as Senator Warnock explains in his new book.
Transcript
ALI VELSHI, MSNBC HOST: Plus, the Velshi Banned Book Club is back on Sunday featuring Garrard Conley, author of the beautiful book “Boy Erased: A Memoir” about his own experience being outed to his Baptist family and forced to choose between attending anti-gay so-called conversion therapy or risk losing his family. Time now for THE LAST WORD. Jason Johnson is in for Lawrence tonight. Good evening, sir.
JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: Good to see you, Ali.
VELSHI: You, too. You have a —
JOHNSON: Welcome. I`m going to, I`m going. Tonight, is a lot, it`s a lot. Tonight, breaking news about the January 6 investigation, is that the shocking testimony by top Meadows aid, Cassidy Hutchison, about Donald Trump trying to get to the capital to join the insurrection, appears to have been corroborated, surprise, surprise. We have full details coming up.
But it`s a good moment to remind you to underline for you as well continue to be shocked by the revelation of the January 6 committee hearings are producing, the next coup is underway. Look, the groundwork is being laid. The January 6 committee hearings have shattered the illusion that the attack on the capitol was a spontaneous spur of the moment outburst at a Trump rally.
What happened on January 6 was the culmination of weeks of planning, of an intensive, multipronged effort involving fake electors, state legislators, and a pressure campaign on the American vice president to overturn the will of the voters. The attack on the building was just one part of the plot. In fact, we kind of zoomed out and now we see the full picture.
But after the anti-Democratic efforts of Trump world around in the 2020 election, Republicans are, right now, working on how to rig the system to stop Democrats from winning, even if they get more votes. And if they can`t stop Democrats from getting more votes, then they want to stop them from ever assuming or even using power.
And that is an attack, not just on Democrats, but on the voters, on the will of the majority, by subverting the voters chosen leader from actually governing. At the end of a term that will be defined by the revoking of a constitutional right for women, the U.S. Supreme Court delivered a potentially ominous preview of what is to come in the fall.
They announced they will hear a case called Moore versus Harper. Republicans in North Carolina want the Supreme Court to give the state legislature, which they control, the final say in setting rules for federal elections. The way things currently stand, it`s the state Supreme Court that has final authority and is often forced to act as a backstop to keep elections fair.
What`s more, these voting rights protections were added to the North Carolina constitution way back in 1970 by the state legislature. As a prominent election lawyer, Rick Hanson, points out, “How can the state Supreme Court have usurped the legislatures power when the legislature itself brought this provision into the state constitution knowing full well that the state constitution is interpreted by the state Supreme Court?”
If the U.S. Supreme Court led by a radical Republican majority, which was put into place under questionable rules, rules in the North Carolina Republicans favor, it could open the door to unchecked partisan gerrymandering and the elimination of voting rights protections all across the country.
Make no mistake, this is all part of a broad effort by the minority to limit the power of the majority in this country. There`s no better example of this in what`s been happening in Wisconsin over the past few years. Wisconsin voters elected a Democrat, Tony Evers, as governor in 2018. Ever since then, the Republican controlled legislature has been working to stop the Wisconsin voters chosen governor from, you know, governing.
The Republican controlled state senate has refused to confirm dozens of his appointees. Governor Evers offer says — office says they`ve blocked 42 percent of his 299 appointments. And a new ruling by the Wisconsin Supreme Court is likely to make the situation worse. This decision comes after a political appointee from the previous administration on the state`s environmental policy board has refused to step down.
And now, the state Supreme Court is saying, that`s fine, they`ve ruled that political appointees don`t have to step down until their replacement is confirmed by the senate. Meaning the Republicans can block Evers` appointments indefinitely by refusing to hold a vote on them. It sounds a lot like when Mitch McConnell did the same thing to President Barack Obama even after he nominated Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court in 2016. At least, I don`t know, that`s what it sounds like to me.
And just like that decision laid bare the minority rule that`s baked into our democracy, this decision of Wisconsin is basically saying the same thing to voters. The Republicans don`t care what you want. This isn`t just politics. This isn`t just partisan bickering.
This is an attack on the voters of Wisconsin, by blocking Democrats from exercising their mandate, you know, the one you get from the voters, Republicans are sabotaging democracy itself. It is an unsustainable situation, it`s likely to come to a breaking point sooner or later.
[22:05:01]
Joining us now is Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor Mandela Barnes. He`s also a Democratic candidate for U.S. Senate. Mandela Barnes, thank you so much for joining us this evening.
MANDELA BARNES, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: Hey, thank you so much for having me. Really good to see you.
JOHNSON: So, I have to start with this, what are regular people saying when you are traveling around the state? What are they saying about the Republican Party in Wisconsin? Because, you know, this recent ruling is the state Supreme Court saying hey, look, these guys can basically stay in power forever.
But this isn`t the first time that the Republicans in the Wisconsin state legislature, despite the fact that the state is very blue, the legislator tends to be very red. This is not the first, second, or third time they have tried to block you and Tony Evers from governing the state. What do regular people say when you walk around the state about the Republican Party?
BARNES: It`s not even close to the first time. As soon as we were elected in 2018, they went into special session to limit the authority. At first, regular voters were just frustrated at the politics. Now they are frustrated about the absolute threat that Republicans here pose to our democracy.
And this is because of gerrymandering that they`re able to get away with what they`re getting away with. The reason our state senate ans state assembly looks the way it does is because of the unfair advantage that Republicans have given themselves.
And that`s why it`s so important that we have a U.S. Senate that takes our democracy seriously, that takes voting rights seriously. And also take the issue of outlaw and partisan gerrymandering seriously. That`s why this race this November in Wisconsin is so important.
JOHNSON: So, I want to go into more detail with this specific ruling. The state Supreme Court just — excuse me. The state Supreme Court just said, look, if somebody is appointed to a position, they don`t have to go until their replacement has been appointed. But the replacement can`t be appointed until they are voted on. And the Republicans who control the senate say we`re not going to vote on anybody that Tony Evers nominates forth.
What on earth are the conversations like with your state senate, and beyond that, when you see that sort of thing happening in the state, does it give you any pause about what the future is like for this country when we`re dealing with a Republican Party that is so anti-Democratic?
BARNES: Well, I will tell you, that is what makes people frustrated. They are tired of the political games. They are tired of being left behind. Costs are rising on families in the state of Wisconsin. People are finding it more difficult just get by.
And all Republicans have — al they want to do is play these political games instead of stepping up to the plate (inaudible) something to help out people. That`s why I personally get frustrated. I look people in the eye everywhere I go. That`s a reminder saying exactly what I`m going through because I do share their concerns. I`m a working-class candidate.
I have been through or have gone through exactly what people are dealing with. And again, that goes back to why this race is so important. Gerrymandering and getting (inaudible) the day in states like Wisconsin, things will be totally different. That`s why I need everybody who is watching today to go to mandelabarnes.com. Help us out. Help us get rid of Ryan Johnson because it is, like you mentioned, it happened at the state level.
But of course, at the federal level it`s even worse because these folks are trying to absolutely subvert our democracy. That is what`s at stake right now. And we cannot take our foot off the gas. I`m so incredibly proud of the momentum that we have. I`m so incredibly proud of the response that we`ve been getting from people all over the place.
And when we`re talking about the political games (inaudible) that is being played, we`re not talking to regular voters, it`s not about left or right to them. It`s not about red or blue. It`s about people who benefit at the top and the rest of us who are being left at the bottom.
JOHNSON: Mandela, I got to ask you this. You are running for senate. You are — the primary is not for several months now. You are one of the Democrats running for the Democratic nomination. You will face — if you were to win, you would face Ron Johnson. I just want to ask you some key things given what we have seen coming out of Supreme Court. Would you be in favor, were you elected, if you become the nominee and you get in the Senate, would you be in favor of a carve out, a filibuster carve out for voting rights and for abortion rights if you are elected to the U.S. Senate from the state of Wisconsin?
BARNES: We are just under six weeks from the primary election, but I tell, another opportunity people who haven`t had the chance to go visit store.mandelabarnes.com because we have our “Abolish the Filibuster” shirts. I`m absolutely in favor of the carve outs, but I do think that the filibuster has outlived its useful life.
JOHNSON: Mandela Barnes, thank you so much for joining us on “The Last Word” this evening.
BARNES: Thank you.
JOHNSON: Joining us now is Jennifer Rubin, a “Washington Post” opinion columnist and an MSNBC political analyst. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us tonight. So, look, I am looking at this Republican nonsense all over the country and I have said, consistently, I do not think they are Republican Party. I think they are a dime store front for a coup that is called the MAGA movement.
But when you see these things at the state level, when you see what`s happening in Wisconsin, when you see what they are trying to do in North Carolina, what are Republicans saying amongst themselves?
[22:10:00]
I mean, arguably, everybody in the Republican Party isn`t anti-Democratic, so whether these suburban and these sort of farmer (ph) Republican saying, are they saying I don`t like this kind of stuff? I hope we can fix it later on. Or are they just willing to go along with the anti-Democratic movement because they are pro-life and, you know, they don`t like gay marriage?
JENNIFER RUBIN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: I think that`s exactly right. I think these people were for democracy when they thought people were in concert with their own values and winning elections meant that they got to institute their policies. Now that they are apparently rooted in the 50s, not the 1950s, but the 1850s, they realize that they have an agenda that is not sellable to the American people.
And as a result, they are going to do everything they can to suppress the vote, to subvert the vote, to use anti-Democratic mechanisms like the filibuster. (Inaudible), you`re a student of American history, you know that the American system always had minority rights built into the system. That`s how we have the electoral college.
JOHNSON: Right.
RUBIN: That`s how we have the Senate. But when those mechanisms are then used to (inaudible) and oppress the majority, then you turn democracy on its head, and then you have a crisis of credibility for democracy. And when you have a Supreme Court for example that doesn`t act like a court, but that throws out precedent, makes wild swings in policy decision-making, then you are not operating in the consent of the government.
You`re operating with a very few pull the levers of powers. And let`s be frank about this, these are very conservative, mostly rural, Christian white men. And that is the philosophy they have and that`s the regime that they are trying to instill.
So, democracy is not their friend. And frankly, I don`t think they give a darn, so long as they get what they came to get.
JOHNSON: So, it`s interesting you mention that the sort of rural Christian men whom in a way have a subset (ph) from Robert Jones, founder of the Public Religion Research Institute. And he talks about the fact that, you know, “We must see these developments for what they are; expressions of raw political power by desperate white Christian minority whose belief in its own divine righteousness has unmoored it from Democratic commitments. And we must grasp the danger they represent for everyone else.”
I got to ask you, Jennifer, I mean, look, I`m not a — I`m a professor of political science not a professor of religion. I don`t know how what we`re seeing right now could be explained as Christianity. What I see is white identity politics with sort of a patina of Christianity on top of it.
But really this is about sort of about a white supremacist movement that`s using Christianity as sort of a cover. Do you think that there is some moral or Christian argument that could be made to these kinds of people to change their perspective? Because maybe you can get somebody look at their religion differently, but you`re not going to get them to look at being white differently in America.
RUBIN: You know, it would be nice if that would work. But Robert B. Jones is one of the great historians on this issue, has shown that frankly, white evangelicals have always intertwined their Christianity with a sense of nationalism and racism. And you really can`t untangle them. And that`s why they have this very hierarchical cult, very oppressive, very non- compassionate, none empathetic approach to society.
But I think what he is getting at is exactly right. They are not comfortable in the modern world, which is diverse, which is more secular than they would like it to be, which is more urban. And therefore, they are having a visceral reaction, which has, you know, began with Barack Obama, on the notion that a black man can be president. It was too much for them to handle.
And ever since that they have been this jack, and what they say to themselves is not everyone should vote. We have too many voters. Really, only the people who are informed should vote or only real America should vote. You know, this phrase they use of real America, that is nothing but (inaudible), just basically coming out and saying we think some Americans are more Americans than other Americans.
And that`s the philosophy they have. It`s dangerous. And I think, if nothing else, this Supreme Court term has should have woken up the rest of America to say you guys, if you don`t get out there and vote and demand people who will aggressively reform the system, not just who has a “D” after their name, but are willing to abolish the filibuster, willing to entertain some structural reforms to the Supreme Court.
We are going to lose this American experiment. So, one, going into the 4th of July, I`m terribly depressed by the Supreme Court. On the other hand, I see the green shoots of awakening. I see a reaction out there. I see Democrats rallying around the themes of freedom, privacy, self- determination, so, there is always another election. There is always hope.
[22:15:00]
JOHNSON: There is always another election isn`t something we can necessarily trust them with the way Republicans and the Supreme Court are going. But anyway, Jennifer Rubin, thank you so much for joining us tonight on “The Last Word.”
RUBIN: My pleasure.
JOHNSON: Coming up, tonight`s breaking news about the January 6 committee investigation. And there is a new federal criminal investigation involving, surprise, Donald Trump. Cassidy Hutchison was the first to describe — sorry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:19:59]
JOHNSON: Cassidy Hutchison was the first to describe how an irate Donald Trump demanded to go to the capitol on January 6th, yelling and even lunging forward when a security detail refused him. Now, two Secret Service agents tell CNN they heard about the incident from other agents as it circulated within the agency, corroborating that an angry confrontation did in fact occur.
“Like Hutchinson, one source, a long time Secret Service employee, told CNN that agents relaying the story described Trump as, quote, “demanding” that the former president said something similar to, “I`m the MF president of the United States, you can`t tell me what to do.” He had sort of lunged forward. It was unclear from the conversations I had that he actually made physical contact, but he might have. I don`t know,” the source said. Nobody said Trump assaulted him. They said he tried to lunge over the seat, for what reason, nobody has any idea.”
This comes as we`re learning more about potential witness tampering by Trump allies revealed by the January 6 committee. NBC News confirms at least one of the messages presented in Tuesday`s hearing was received by Cassidy Hutchinson. A source familiar with Hutchinson`s depositions says the person referenced in this message urging her to be, quote, “loyal and do the right thing,” is former White House Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, shocker.
Two sources say Cassidy Hutchison told the committee that she had been contacted by an intermediary attempting to influence her testimony. “Politico” and “The Washington Post” both report that Cassidy Hutchison provided the committee with the other example of witness intimidation that read in part, quote, “What they said to me is, as long as I continue to be a team player, I will continue to stay in good graces in Trump World. And they have reminded me a couple of times that Trump does read transcripts.” Might be the only thing the man actually reads.
Trump`s former White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, might be on the verge of sitting down with the committee next week. A lawyer familiar with the matter tells NBC News Pat Cipollone will probably agree to a transcribed interview, though there is no final agreement yet.
And there`s breaking news tonight about Trump and another criminal probe. Trump`s media company has been subpoenaed in a federal criminal probe investigating the merger with a special purpose acquisition firm that could delay or even block the deal. Goodness gracious.
Joining us now is Glenn Kirschner, a former federal prosecutor and an MSNBC legal analyst, and Tim O`Brien, senior columnist for “Bloomberg Opinion” and author of “Trump Nation.” Thank you, guys, so much. Glenn, I`m going to start with you because I asked this question. It`s not just a question on my mind, it`s a question on everybody`s mind who is not a lawyer and doesn`t play one on T.V.
Why hasn`t Donald Trump been indicted on something yet? Look, I could watch half a season of “Law and Order, even “SVU,” and I could figure out that if you have so many conspiracies, you`ve attempted to intimidate people who are testifying against you, you have been caught on the phone trying to intimidate secretaries of state. How has this man not been indicted on anything at this point? Explain this to me, Glenn, like I`m nine-years-old.
GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGEL ANALYST: Jason, I wish I had a compelling explanation for why we`ve seen Donald Trump commit crime after crime in the harsh light of day. And, you know, Donald Trump, I think it`s a fair observation, has got to be the most investigated and least prosecuted man in our nation`s history.
I mean, here we are, 18 months down the road from watching with our own eyes Donald Trump incite a violent attack on the capital, lying to his foot soldiers to gin them up, get them angry, and then tell them, if you don`t go up the street to that building where those people are certifying the win of my political opponent and stop them, fight like hell to stop them, you won`t have a country anymore.
And yet, there has been zero accountability. You know, lawlessness begets lawlessness. And Donald Trump has gotten away with everything and then some. And if Merrick Garland is really as concerned with the legitimacy and the reputation of the Department of Justice, as I believe he is, he had better start having his federal prosecutors indict at least some of the command structure of the insurrection.
Not just the foot soldiers, not just the people that Donald Trump duped into believing their vote was stolen from them, because absent accountability for Donald Trump for his crimes, the 2024 nominee for the presidency will be entitled to do all of it again with impunity and I don`t think we can survive another go around like that.
[22:25:03]
JOHNSON: Tim, I want to focus a little bit about what Cassidy Hutchinson said and how it was responded to and sort of what we`ve seen in the media of last 24 to 48 hours. So, she says, hey, look, you know, I heard firsthand accounts that the president, he knew people were armed. He`s basically saying, you know, I want to march into the capital with my hands up in the air wave them like I just don`t care.
And then she talked about the sort of assault in the car. And immediately, the right-wing media ecosystem is like, it`s a lie. It`s not confirmed. And then it gets confirmed. The question I have for you, Tim, is when the public hears these kinds of story, where regular people hear these kinds of stories, not media folks, regular voters, the generic Ohio diner person, or personally I like to say like, you know, Alpharetta, Georgia diner person.
When they hear that the former president lunged at somebody in a car, is that the kind of thing that — does it diminish turnout? Does it gain interest? What`s the impact of some of these revelations on regular voters as they`re seeing it spill out across their screens throughout these hearings?
TIM O`BRIEN, SENIOR COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG OPINION: You know, I`m not really prepared yet to say what the impact on voters will be. I think the real importance in these hearings are its impact on Merrick Garland and the extent to which it pushes the Department of Justice to take the necessary action of indicting Donald Trump and his cohorts for staging a coup and for a number of other crimes.
And I think the issue of whether or not Donald Trump is a lunger or whether or not there was catsup on one of the walls in the White House, is largely irrelevant. I think what`s more important from her testimony are a few salient things. That Donald Trump knew days before the January 6th insurrection that it was possibly going to become violent.
That the morning of the insurrection, he was aware that people were entering the ellipse armed and he actively tried to prevent them from being turned away and disarmed. Third, he wanted to march with them to the capitol. And what no one disputes when he got into that car, regardless of whether or not he lunged, was that he was angry and that he wanted to be taken to the capital, regardless of whatever else happened in that car.
So, her testimony has directly connected him, I think, to crimes and not as a bystander, but as an engineer, as someone orchestrating the act. And that`s what`s dynamic about her testimony. I think Fox and Trump`s other enablers and supporters are far — are trying to turn the discussion now on the drama inside the presidential motorcade because it`s distracting.
Because it actually gets away from this other very simple and clear narrative that demonstrates that Donald Trump is a criminal and that he`s a threat to democracy and that he tried to stage a coup. I think there are other issues that are going to focus voters this fall. I think the Supreme Court decision on abortion, I think gun violence, and inflation are going to be more important to voters than anything that happens inside that limousine.
JOHNSON: Glenn, I want to close with this because I think this is really key. We`ve all talked about the idea of, you know, there`s so many different crimes. I mean, this is just sort of this insane Joker-esque crime spree that we`ve been seeing from Donald Trump for the last six or seven years, including his new sort of media venture.
We are now hearing that federal prosecutors have put an inquiry into true social. What do you think could be the impact of that? Again, could we see Donald Trump get taken down for something if Merrick Garland is to feckless or disinterested or cautious to do something about the insurrection? Could Trump get taken down because he`s corrupt with how he was managing his media company or some other resource?
KIRSCHNER: In theory, yes, we can have the academic discussion again about will this take down Donald Trump? But, of course, there is also the wire fraud that has been exposed in recent days to the tune of $250 million that he built his supporters out of with a fictitious election defense fund.
That actually sounds like a pretty readily provable crime, but here`s the thing that I want to watch closely right now, Jason, it`s the witness tampering. Because, you know what, federal prosecutors do exactly nothing quickly in the grand jury. They investigate exhaustively, thoroughly. Typically, that`s a good thing except when public safety or our democracy hangs in the balance.
Then you have to step it up and meet the urgency of the moment. We now have witness tampering. Witness tampering is it strikes right at the heart of the integrity of the investigations, congressional and criminal. And when we see witnesses being tempered, what we need to do is get an FBI agent to interview the witness, put the information and an affidavit, apply for an arrest warrant, and move out to put a stop to it in realtime. That`s what I`m going to be watching for to see if DOJ response in a timely manner.
[22:29:59]
JOHNSON: I wish you were in charge of these investigations, Glenn. Glenn Kirschner, Tim O`Brien, thanks so much for joining us tonight.
O`BRIEN: Thanks, Jason.
JOHNSON: Coming up, Republican governors continue to enforce extremist anti-abortion laws and some prosecutors in those states refuse to enforce those laws. That`s next on THE LAST WORD.
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[22:34:55]
JOHNSON: In the week since Republican justices on the Supreme Court took away a woman`s right to choose, yes, it`s only been a week — more than 80 county prosecutors across the country have vowed not to enforce laws that criminalize abortion.
Here`s the thing. Many red states are home to blue cities run by elected Democrats, who don`t want any part of this draconian, Republican agenda.
In a joint statement they wrote, “We stand together on our firm belief that prosecutors have a responsibility to refrain from using limited criminal legal system resources to criminalize personal medical decisions.
As such, we decline to use our offices` resources to criminalize reproductive health decisions and commit to exercise our well-settled discretion and refrain from prosecuting those who seek, provide or support abortions.”
Joining us now are two Georgia district attorneys who have said they will not prosecute. Sherry Boston D.A. for Dekalb County and Jared Williams, D.A. for the Augusta judicial circuit. Joining us also Imani Gandy, senior editor of law and politics for Rewire News Group. Thank you so much.
Sherry, I will start with you. This is a bold move. I mean it`s one thing to sort of privately say, hey, I`m not going to really bother with this, if this comes on my desk. But you put your name on the document that says, this is some nonsense, I`m not going to participate.
Tell me a little bit about what your thought process was in putting your name on this and saying, hey, this is not part of my purview and this is not something I`m going to do.
SHERRY BOSTON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, DEKALB COUNTY, GEORGIA: Well Jason, these are such critical medical decisions that women and girls are making every day that it was important for them to understand from the outset, that I was not going to prosecute these types of cases, unlike a case where perhaps you are arrested for a nonviolent theft charge or a personal use of some sort of drug where we have time to put you on accountability in court or diversion or even decline to prosecute. There is time to do that.
When we`re talking about making choices about whether to terminate a pregnancy, we`ve got a limited time. So, we need to get out ahead of it and make it very clear to our community that there would not be criminal prosecution in the face of making significant health and personal decisions.
JOHNSON: So — Imani — I`m sorry, we are having a little bit of a sound issue. Imani, I have to ask you this, part of the issue that we are seeing here is if you are not lucky enough to have live in a state where you`ve got prosecutors who are saying, hey, we`re not going to go forward with this, you still have to deal with judges.
We have the story that came out earlier this week about President Biden cutting a deal with Mitch McConnell, where he is going to appoint a lifetime, anti-choice judge from Kentucky in favor of getting two temporary prosecutors.
On the ground, Imani, how can the fight against abortion continue? How can the fight to keep choice be alive if you have a president who is always cutting deals with anti-choice people? How do regular voters — how do people have to respond to something like this, like this deal that Joe Biden has just pulled off?
IMANI GANDI, REWIRE NEWS GROUP: I think it`s an unimaginable betrayal. I think it would have been an unimaginable betrayal at any point in time. But for him to be making this deal and for that news to come forth a week after Roe was overturned, I think it`s just — I think it`s egregious.
And I also think it`s also bad politics. As you said, this is an exchange for two prosecutors who will have a limited term, so you are going to exchange an anti-choice federal judge who will be on the bench for life, for two-limited term prosecutors?
And I can imagine in the future if this judge goes far, becomes potentially a Supreme Court nominee, one can imagine in la few years this judge sitting in a confirmation hearing and saying, I was a bipartisan pick. I was nominated by Democratic president.
And that, going to help him through a confirmation process — I just think it`s a terrible idea.
JOHNSON: Yes, this is the equivalent of, I`m going to trade you a chunk of gold for two bitcoin. That will work long term.
You know, Jarred, this is my question. You know, you`re down in Georgia. You`ve made this decision that you`re going to prosecute. What kind of pressure are you getting within the state?
You still have, at least currently, Governor Brian Kemp. You still have a lot of Republicans who are of influence and power in that state. Are you getting pressure or threats to change your mind or to back down from the stance you have taken that you will not prosecute people seeking abortion?
JARED WILLIAMS, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, AUGUSTA JUDICIAL DISTRICT: We are definitely getting pressure. But it doesn`t matter. We are going to keep fighting. Because in my circuit, women are going to have the same rights as men. And it doesn`t matter who brings what pressure, we are going to keep fighting.
[22:39:50]
JOHNSON: I`ve got to ask this also. Because this is — I think this is the thing that I don`t think enough Americans understand. In the state of Georgia, it`s difficult to get access to an abortion anyway.
In this imaginary world that Republicans would like — and I will have to ask you this — what would it take for a district attorney to go after someone? Would you have to have somebody — rat their mouth that they got an abortion, and then you would have to bring up charges? Would you have to pursue them if somebody say caught them in an Uber on the way to an abortion? How will this process even work if you weren`t not taking the stance that you were taking?
WILLIAMS: It would be untenable regardless. But it`s more than just the logistics of prosecuting the abortion case. It`s what it does to our actual sexual assault victims because some of these laws would ask me to turn around and in the same breath that I am prosecuting a rapist, incestuous father for raping his daughter and getting her pregnant, turn around and prosecute her and allow the system to re-victimize her.
And so how could I possibly prosecute the case against the person, the actual rapist, the actual sexual assault perpetrator, if the victim is afraid to talk to me because she thinks that I`m going to try to put her in prison for making a health care decision with her doctor?
JOHNSON: And sherry, real quick, to add on to this, talk to us briefly about the limited resources that you have as a prosecutor, right.
Talk about how much time it would take to hunt down all these women seeking abortions and potentially murderers and rapists and bank robbers and all sorts of other people go?
BOSTON: And that`s a great question because right now we are not dealing with a normal case log — case log backlog that we have. We had two years where the criminal justice system was shut down.
So we are at a precipice where we are trying to find our way back and deal with violent crime, murderers, rapists, child molestation cases, armed robberies — cases that actually contribute to harm in the community, the public safety of the community, to violence in the community.
And to divert those resources to go after women making health care decisions just doesn`t make sense. And it`s not what`s our communities are asking and begging us to do to keep them safe.
JOHNSON: Sherry Boston, Jared Williams and of course Imani Gandy, thank you so much for joining us tonight on THE LAST WORD.
Coming up, an excellent new poll for Raphael Warnock in Georgia. I`ll explain why I think it could be great news for Stacey Abrams and Georgia`s blue shift, next on THE LAST WORD.
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JOHNSON: When Democrats Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff became Georgia`s first Democratic senators since 2005 on the heels of Joe Biden`s victory, it shocked a lot of people, including Trump Republicans who turned their disbelief and the outcome into the big lie as Senator Warnock explains in his new book.
“The former president`s continued claims of widespread voter fraud are just his way of saying that the votes of certain people don`t count, can`t count, can`t be real because the election outcome was not consistent with the mitt of white supremacy.” Pass the collection play.
And now according to a new poll, Senator Warnock is leading Georgia senate race against Trump backed ex-football player and multi time Father`s Day recipient Herschel Walker by up to ten points.
Quinnipiac has Senator Warnock at 54 percent and Herschel Walker at 44 percent. That same poll from January showed the two in a statistical tie at 48 percent to 49 present.
In Georgia`s governor race, Stacey Abrams is tied with Republican Governor Brian Kemp in that same poll. Georgia Democrats are hoping to continue shifting Georgia blue and abortion rights should be that issue to drive voters out in November.
Earlier this week, Stacey Abrams tweeted, quote, “What has been done with abortion rights is an assault on our liberties. But we can and will fight back. We can organize. We can vote.
Joining us now are Cliff Albright, co-founder of Black Voters Matter, one of the best dressed people on TV and Nse Ufot CEO of the New Georgia Project a non-partisan voter registration and engagement organization, one of my favorite guests. Thank you all so much.
I can`t imagine a better (INAUDIBLE) just from a straight polling perspective, I`ve noticed in Georgia there`s a tendency to under-poll black and brown voters in general. So, when you see numbers that show, say, Raphael Warnock up by ten over Herschel Walker or Stacey Abrams statistically tied with Brian Kemp, what does that say to you, knowing full well that there`s large numbers of people who probably haven`t been asked and aren`t going to be?
CLIFF ALBRIGHT, CO-FOUNDER, BLACK VOTERS MATTER: Hey, Jason, good to be with you tonight. Yes, you know, what it says is, we always have to take into account a couple of points because at the end of the day, we know that some voters lie, right? You know, call it what we want to call it — the Bradley effect of whatever you want to call it.
There are some white voters that just don`t want to tell you that they`re still willing to vote for somebody as disastrous as a camp or even as disastrous as a Herschel Walker.
So we always know that you`ve got to have a little bit of cushion in there with some of these polls.
That said, there`s no mistaking the direction of these polls, in both the gubernatorial poll, and especially in the senate poll and the senate race. There is a clear direction that these polls are moving and that`s for good reason.
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ALBRIGHT: And particularly in the Senate race, we believe that the more that people learn about Herschel Walker — and as you said, his multiple Father`s Day presence, you know that he`s got not one, not two, but three different children that, you know, he hasn`t been involved in, and in spite of his protestation`s around fathers that are not involved in their children`s lives.
But apart from that, there`s just a range of issues that he has either lied about or that he`s just woefully unprepared to discuss with any legitimacy.
And we think that the longer that this race goes on, the more people see the clear distinction, we think that this trend that we`re already seeing in that senate polling is going to continue.
JOHNSON: Nse, one thing that I said and I remember this back during the senate election, for Ossoff and Warnock. I was sitting there with an organizer, watching the election results. And he was telling me look, if Warnock hits over 50 percent, he`s going to drag Ossoff over the finish line.
Well now, we`ve got this situation where Reverend Raphael Warnock could easily, easily get 51, maybe even 52 percent of the vote. Even when we consider voter suppression and also voter suppression, is there a chance that Warnock`s weak opponent could end up being sort of a pace car to help Stacey Abrams?
I have trouble believing that there`s a lot of camp Warnock voters out there. You know, I suspect a lot of people who are voting for Brian Kemp might just leave Herschel Walker blank. But if Warnock stays as strong would he be able to pull Stacey Abrams over the line or could this still be a split race?
NSE UFOT, CEO, NEW GEORGIA PROJECT: Absolutely. I think that Cliff`s point is incredibly apt. The idea that these polls are indicating trends that we are seeing in this moment — and so, when we are thinking about the midterm elections, it is going to be a battle of the bases. That`s what we are looking at.
And so if you are looking at an enthusiastic and a determined Democratic voting base that is enthusiastic about Warnock, I don`t see a world where that doesn`t translate to the Abrams race. But also to the other exciting races that are on the ticket.
We are talking about secretary of state with Bee Nguyen, and there are some exciting candidates in the state house, with these huge issues on the table. I think that Georgians are going to the polls with some demands.
And so we are talking about protecting bodily autonomy, we are talking about the fact that, you know, we are now permit-less carry state. We are talking about inflation like these are all things that also, you know, rose to the top in the Quinnipiac poll.
And so absolutely, with an enthusiastic base that is turning out for Senator Warnock`s reelection, we are very likely to see America`s first black woman governor with Leader Abrams.
JOHNSON: Now, I always say this, Cliff, to paraphrase a rapper, these polls aren`t loyal. I`ve never believed that a poll that you take in June can necessarily be trusted by the fall. And there`s still a tremendous amount of voter suppression that happens in the state of Georgia.
What are the challenges that you still see on the ground in that state? What are some of the limitations that you and black voters matter are fighting against and organizing against that would keep the will of the people from manifesting itself in the polls in November?
ALBRIGHT: Yes, of course, we`ve known that there`s still incredible levels of voter suppression taking place, in spite of some of the narrative that you heard coming out of the primaries, or even out of the so-called off year elections last year.
You know, what we`ve been able to do, when organizations like Nse`s, you know New Georgia Project and the entire Georgia ecosystem have done an incredible job of educating our voters around the voter suppression laws and mobilizing voters.
Just because we have been able to have large turn out, it doesn`t mean that voter suppression hasn`t had an impact in this state. We know that there was a disproportionate, there was a drastically increased number of vote by mail ballots that were rejected. And that was disproportionately affecting black voters and other marginalized voters, right.
And so we know that the suppression is having an impact. We know that in the primaries that there were investigators and officers from the secretary of state`s department going around the polling places looking to see whether or not people were giving out food and water.
But they weren`t just looking for it in order to stop it during the election. What they were doing was sending a message that we know is going to have a chilling effect on organizers as well as on voters.
Anytime you`ve got the secretary of state sending out armed investigators like that, that has a chilling effect. So we know that the voter suppression is out there. And most importantly is what we know is — we`re confident. I`m very confident, that at the end of the day that Leader Abrams is going to have more votes and Senator Warnock is going to have more votes.
The question is, will they all be able to be counted? That is the biggest question that we are facing. Or are they going to use the voter suppression law SB 202 and the provisions, that allowed them to take over county, like Fulton County — they`ve already started that process.
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ALBRIGHT: It is not outside the realm of a possibility that come election day that they can decide that, oh, you know what, we have take over this board and appoint a superintendent and not count those votes. That`s our biggest concern.
JOHNSON: Right. The issue is always it isn`t how many people vote, it`s whose votes get counted. For everybody out there who is Raffensperger a hero because he resisted a couple of phone calls from Donald Trump, this still matters going into the fall.
Cliff Albright and Nse Ufot, thank you so much for joining us on THE LAST WORD tonight.
UFOT: Thank you.
ALBRIGHT: Thank you.
JOHNSON: Tonight`s LAST WORD from me Jason Johnson. That`s next.
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JOHNSON: And that`s tonight`s LAST WORD.
I`m Jason Johnson. thanks for watching. Have a good holiday weekend.
“THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE” starts right now.