Updated
Summary
The Justice Department has officially asked an appeals court to stay or to block part of Trump-appointed Judge Aileen Cannon`s ruling granting Trump`s request for a special master to review the seized government records from Trump`s club. Interview with Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH).
Transcript
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, “ALL IN”: That is “ALL IN” for this week.
ALEX WAGNER TONIGHT starts right now.
Good evening, Alex.
ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. It sounds really great. I have heard nothing but very, very positive reviews. I will be streaming it on Sunday.
HAYES: Awesome.
WAGNER: Have a great weekend.
HAYES: You, too.
WAGNER: And thank you all for joining us this hour.
Negative seven degrees Celsius. That is how cold it gets on the border of Belarus and Poland in the month of February. That`s about degrees Fahrenheit below freezing. That is the low.
The high is a balmy 30 degrees Fahrenheit, negative one degree Celsius. Still below the freezing point.
That is why it looked like this on Poland`s border with Belarus in February when a 22-year-old refugee from Sudan named Albaguir (ph) arrived there. He got stuck there on the border between the two countries in a frozen forest lined with barbed wire, because he tried to cross the border from Belarus into Poland and neither country would take him..
Albaguir`s experience is the same as tens of thousands of migrants and refugees from countries experiencing war and violence, like Sudan, Iraq, Syria and Yemen. That`s because the leader of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko, has been using tens of thousands of Black and Brown migrants as pawns since 2021. He`s invited tens of thousands of migrants from the Middle East to Belarus only to then redirect them to the Polish border, thereby manufacturing a migrant crisis.
Thousands of these people were trapped at the border. More than a dozen bodies have been found likely frozen to death.
Lukashenko did this. He harmed all of these people to make a political point to stick it to the European Union, that bastion of elite globalists and he had telegraphed it for years. He warned the EU.
“Vox” reports, quote, every time the EU criticized him, every time the West criticized him, he reiterated the same chain of argument. You don`t appreciate me, that I am defending you from the illegal migrants. I am defending you from the drug trafficking. I am guarding your eastern border and you are not grateful.
So when the EU sanctioned him for his fraudulent 2020 presidential election, Lukashenko used migrants as pawns to make a statement with no regard for the actual humanity of the people he was using in this twisted scheme.
It`s a similar playbook to that of Turkey`s President Erdogan who has brought thousands of migrants to Turkey`s border with Greece to thumb his nose at the EU, or Hungary`s Viktor Orban who campaigned this year on forcing migrants back into Serbia. The autocrat`s playbook is this, human beings especially Black and Brown human beings can be very effectively and explicitly used as pawns to make a political point to own the elites, to own the globalists. Does that remind you of anything else? Maybe something we`re seeing here on the state level in the United States?
On Wednesday, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis became the third governor to use taxpayer dollars to transport migrants and asylum seekers from Republican states to liberal cities like New York and D.C. and Chicago, to really stick it to Biden and the liberal elites and their cities that already enjoy large diverse immigrant populations.
To make some kind of point, DeSantis sent nearly 50 migrants on planes to Martha`s Vineyard without informing any local authorities that plane loads of people who would need housing and food and care were on their way. He did alert Fox News though, and he hired a videographer.
And, by the way, these migrants were lured there from San Antonio, Texas, not Florida. The plane made a pit stop in Florida though on the way to Martha`s Vineyard.
The migrants were misled with false promises of expedited work and jobs and housing and other services. Some were reportedly offered $50 gift cards, some were lied to about where exactly they were even going and what to expect when they actually arrived. One migrant said a woman named Perla even paid him to help fill the flight to Martha`s Vineyard.
At least one migrant told NBC she thought she was being flown to Boston. As of today, migrants who wanted to go to the mainland for housing, which Martha`s Vineyard does not have much of, they have arrived at a military base on Cape Cod, thanks to the governor of Massachusetts.
In a statement today, Florida`s communications director tells us, quote, Florida`s program seeks to identify illegal immigrants at the southern border who have been processed by the Feds and connect them voluntarily with opportunities to reach sanctuary destinations and high wealth areas that support Biden`s open border policies, welcome immigrants and have significant resources to care for these individuals. Now that the entire country is talking about this shameful political stunt, that is what Florida is saying publicly, that this whole program is just a useful voluntary opportunity to move people to more welcoming places — nothing to see here.
[21:05:02]
But here is what Governor DeSantis said privately last week to a room full of top Republican donors. “The Washington Post” reports that in a 51-minute speech, he told hundreds of donors, quote: I do have this money. I want to be helpful. Maybe we`ll go to Texas and help. Maybe we`ll send to Chicago, Hollywood, Martha`s Vineyard, who knows?
The remarks were full of grievance and harping on culture wars and claims that the libs have been winning this fight making Republicans and people like DeSantis look like second-class citizens. He went on to say, quote, we`re not just arguing about tax rates, we`re not just arguing about normal policies. You know, we`re arguing about whether people that dissent from leftist ideology should have any voice in our government in society at all.
Of liberals, DeSantis said, and they`ve been winning this fight for I would say the last five or ten years.
All the grievance, all the vengeance, it sure sounds a lot like Lukashenko. Oh and by the way, this plan, at least here in the U.S. was first dreamed up back in 2019 by the most grievance-filled anti-immigrant politicians of them all, former White House immigration adviser Stephen Miller and his patron, President Donald Trump.
Quote: The Trump administration led by immigration adviser Stephen Miller originally floated such a plan but concerns within Immigration and Customs Enforcement led them to scuttle the idea, which drew considerable backlash at the time.
So to be clear, even the Trump administration did not implement this cruel and unusual plan, not for moral reasons per se but because it was risky. Still, the administration that brought you family separation at the border predicted this plan would be riddled with problems, but somehow, someway, Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida did not.
Joining us now is Susan Church. She is an immigration attorney in Massachusetts who has spent the day today with some of the Venezuelan migrants who have been victims of Governor DeSantis`s plan.
Mrs. Church, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
: Thank you so much for having me.
WAGNER: So can you tell us what the current status of these migrants is? Where they are? What resources are being allocated to them? And generally, what their state of mind is?
SUSAN CHURCH, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY MASSACHUSETTS: So they have been moved from Martha`s Vineyard to the Otis Air Force Base voluntarily. They were a little scared to get on the bus today after what had already happened to them with Governor DeSantis. But with the help of some immigration lawyers who are on the team, they were convinced to go there voluntarily.
They`re really confused and don`t know why this has happened to them. I read reports and have talked to many of these individuals and they`re just wondering why the world is doing this to them, really why the governor of Florida is doing to them — this to them.
They`re hoping that they can get their status straightened out. They`re hoping that they can get their lives straightened out. They are all fleeing terror in their home countries and now, they`re facing the same sort of terror here and they`re hoping it ends soon.
WAGNER: What of their immigration status? I think a lot if not almost all of these folks were in the pro — they`re in the process of having scheduled hearings. Those hearings I am assuming are nowhere near Boston. What is their in — how is this affecting their immigration status and their court proceedings?
CHURCH: So, everyone here is someone who`s been — everyone that I`ve seen so far was paroled in which is a lawful status which allows you to then seek asylum or other forms of relief in immigration court. The courts are scattered everywhere. There are people with courts in Utah, Texas, California, I`ve seen them everywhere.
People were lied to by the way about where they were going and many people had asked for different locations and thought that they were going there. So, it`s very confusing to their immigration status because it really takes a lawyer to move a case from Utah to Boston, which is now where their case has to be heard.
There`s another problem with trying to check in with ice. They all had scheduled ice check-ins with different locations we`re trying to relocate those and get those set up. So they`re all located in Massachusetts, and it`s really not something that you can handle without the help of an attorney. So it`s good many people have volunteered to do so.
WAGNER: Could they be considered victims of a crime perpetrated by Governor DeSantis here? I know that there are a number of different statutes that might apply. Could this be kidnapping? It doesn`t sound like it`s human trafficking.
But the misleading nature of all of this does — could that in turn actually favorably affect their immigration application?
CHURCH: I`m very happy you asked that because I do think a crime has been committed here. Let`s start with the — I mean, I won`t go through all of them, but kidnapping. Kidnapping is not an allegation of force. It can be done with an allegation of fraud.
So, clearly, they were fraudulently put onto the plane, confined, dropped off in Martha`s Vineyard. I think kidnapping has some strong investigatory aspects that need to be taken on that.
[21:10:03]
RICO, so the Racketeering and Influence Corruption Act, that requires two predicate acts involving certain crimes. This sounds like we`ve got some large-scale cooperation between DeSantis and Governor Abbott, whoever bought the planes is involved. There`s a RICO charge. And Massachusetts has its own civil rights statute that also has significant ramifications for a case like this.
So there`s a lot to be looked at and a lot to be investigated here.
WAGNER: And if they are victims of a crime, they could be eligible for something called a U visa. Is that right?
CHURCH: That is correct, and even better than, that so a U visa is a document that a local law enforcement agency, any of our local Massachusetts law enforcement agencies can investigate a crime and then they sign a certification and then that`s filed with immigration. And it takes a long time to get a U visa, but most of these individuals from what I`m seeing would be prima facie eligible for a U visa as long as we got the certification.
But even better than that in Massachusetts, we are one of the very limited jurisdictions where a pending U visa is essentially issued by the first circuit of decision saying you cannot deport somebody while they have a U visa pending. So even though U visa may take seven years, they cannot be removed from the country. Whereas other people in similar jurisdictions would be removed while awaiting their U visa to be processed.
So they`ve removed the individuals to one of the very few jurisdictions in the country where they will be protected by their criminal acts of DeSantis and Governor Abbott.
WAGNER: Amazing. The thoughtlessness — the thoughtlessness, the cruelty is backfiring in spectacular fashion.
Susan Church, immigration attorney in Massachusetts, thank you so much for your time and for everything that you are doing.
CHURCH: Thank you.
WAGNER: Now I want to bring in Nikki Fried. As Florida`s commissioner of agriculture and consumer services, she is a member of Governor DeSantis cabinet and the only statewide elected Democrat in the state of Florida, and she is calling on Attorney General Merrick Garland to investigate Florida`s governor over this political stunt and that is a euphemism.
Commissioner Fried, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
NIKKI FRIED, FLORIDA COMISSIONER OF AGRICULTURE AND CONSUMER SERVICES: Thanks for having me tonight, Alex.
WAGNER: So how is this playing in Florida? I mean, on one hand, the entire nation is aware of Ron DeSantis and his plot, and what he`s done and how it is in some ways backfiring.
But he`s doing this for a very specific audience. He`s in the middle of a re-election campaign. Is it playing out the way he wants to among Florida Republicans?
FRIED: No, this is backfiring on him. I mean, look, we have in the state of Florida some of the most diverse population, individuals that have left Venezuela, Colombia, Cuba to come to Florida into America for political freedom. They`re leaving these oppressive regimes and they`ve come to Florida.
And now, they`re watching their governor do something that is just so inhumane, taking Venezuelans and taking them to another state for political ploys. So this is backfiring on him. You`re seeing individuals from both sides of the aisle, Democrats, Republicans that are just outraged at this political ploy. That has been now unfolding in front of the nation`s eyes.
But unfortunately, in Florida, we see these kinds of tactics from this governor every single day, and it`s unfortunate now that we`ve got 50 individuals lives that are part of this ploy that the governor is playing out.
WAGNER: Yeah, some of his socially hard-line policies have not hurt him as much in sort of conservative Republican and even some immigrant groups. But this is directly attacking immigrants. Florida is home to I think 20 percent of Florida residents are immigrants, a lot of them in the Cuban- American community have not reacted to this well. I think at one point the lieutenant governor had to reassure the Cuban community that this would not happen to Cuban immigrants. Is that right?
FRIED: No, actually, it`s not. About three weeks ago, the lieutenant governor who is of Cuban descent actually went on — I think it was Fox — one national network and basically said something very similar that, that Governor DeSantis was going to bus uh Cuban exiles from Florida up to Delaware Biden`s home state. So this is a game that both the lieutenant governor and this governor is playing out with the lives on the line.
And there was outrage both from the Democrats but also from Cuban-Americans and Cuban Floridians who are seeing that this cruelty. Individuals that are either first generation, they themselves may have been coming over from Cuba over the years, leaving Fidel Castro`s communist regime of Cuba, coming for a better way of life for freedom here in the United States, and now to see that their lieutenant governor and their governor are using them as you said earlier today, pawns, in the scheme that they`re playing out and we know what this is all about.
Let`s also be realistic here.
[21:15:01]
Ron DeSantis is running for president in 2024. That is not a — you know, everybody knows that that is what`s happening here today. And now, he is using not only these individuals, he`s using Florida taxpayer dollars, money that was — that was put into the budget to do something like this a political stunt.
And he did the same thing last year. He spent another $1.6 million last year sending our National Guard and law enforcement over to the border in Texas, again for that political, you know, picture for that photo op, and this is what he is doing.
And so what this is doing here in the state of Florida is outraging everybody, from the immigrant community from those on the conservative right, Democrats independents. And I think that he has been playing with fire. He has been you know flying too close to the sun and we all know the ending of that story. He`s going to get burned and this is just another one of his tactics that is backfiring on him.
WAGNER: I mean, just to be clear it sounds like the lieutenant governor had to backtrack those comments that you referenced saying it was a general discussion about illegal immigration not targeted at Cuban migrants that are fleeing a dictatorial regime.
The fact that they are in this position now where they have to clarify which immigrants they`re seeking to punish in a political ploy seems like bad politics.
Now, you`re calling on Attorney General Merrick Garland to get involved. What would you like to see the DOJ do here?
FRIED: You know, I think you just heard from one of your immigration lawyers previously, that there is a lot of federal laws that are in place, whether it is human trafficking, whether it`s RICO, whether it`s smuggling or kidnapping. This is an opportunity for the Department of Justice to take a real heavy look, because no one`s above the law, not Ron DeSantis, not Greg Abbott, and certainly not Donald Trump.
And so, for them to be using these tactics, using taxpayer dollars moving individuals across state lines not only interfering with their own immigration status and their own immigration hearings but playing with individuals lives, this is an opportunity for the Department of Justice to be coming in to unravel what exactly has happened here. There is a lot of conversation about how actually these individuals were located, what kind of conversations were happening with them to lure them on to these planes, what misinformation fraud was actually induced to get them onto the planes.
And unfortunately, there`s no trust here in the state of Florida that if we were acting for an actual internal investigation here in the state, we would never get it here in the state of Florida. I`ve asked for similar types of investigations when the governor just three weeks ago did something similar to individuals, that he came down to South Florida had individuals arrested for illegally voting in the 2020 election, even though it was his secretary of state, his State Department that authorized their eligibility to vote.
And so I`ve asked for an internal investigation into those actions and what happened there. I know that I`m never going to get an answer to my call for an IG report in Florida. So the Department of Justice has an obligation right now to take a look at these actions make the connections between what is happening with not only Florida but Texas, who was involved in these communications, who paid for what, who know what knew of what and this is really something that we need the Department of Justice to act on and act on quickly.
WAGNER: The Department of Justice once again being called to the state of Florida. I will refrain from comment there.
Nikki Fried, Florida`s commissioner of agriculture and consumer services, thank you so much for your time.
FRIED: Thanks for having me.
WAGNER: Ahead, breaking news, in the Mar-a-Lago documents case as the Justice Department appeals to the 11th Circuit to stay part of a Florida judge`s order denying them access to classified documents. It comes amid new reports of lying in Trump world about those boxes of classified documents which were of course stored away at Mar-a-Lago. Who lied, what they said and what the Justice Department is doing about it, that`s next.
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[21:23:41]
WAGNER: We have breaking news tonight, this just in.
The Justice Department has officially asked an appeals court to stay or to block part of Trump-appointed Judge Aileen Cannon`s ruling granting Trump`s request for a special master to review the seized government records from Trump`s club.
Tonight, in their motion, the Justice Department is specifically asking the 11th circuit court of appeals to halt the special master from reviewing the 100 classified documents that`s that small subset of the roughly 11,000 government records because they are going to conduct — they are conducting an ongoing criminal investigation and intelligence assessment. That is how the DOJ`s stay request begins.
Quote: The district court has entered an unprecedented order in joining the executive branch`s use of its own highly classified records in a criminal investigation with direct implications for national security. The government continues, quote: Trump has identified no cognizable harm from merely allowing criminal investigators to continue to review and use the same subset of the seized records.
The Justice Department does not hold back in this filing, quote: Trump`s only possible injury is the government`s investigation but that injury is not legally cognizable.
Trump`s only possible injury, injury in quotes there, is the government`s investigation. Mic drop.
We had been expecting the Justice Department to go to the appeals court after Judge Cannon denied its request to carve out an exception to her ruling.
[21:25:05]
That would be again to exempt the roughly 100 classified documents seized from Mar-a-Lago last month from the special master`s review. So this does not exactly come as a surprise and it should be an easy case for the DOJ. The law on who owns presidential records and executive privilege is on the DOJ side.
Nonetheless, the DOJ has an uphill battle here. There are 11 active judges on the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. Trump appointed six of those judges. But at this point, who knows? Anything could happen.
For more on this breaking news, I want to bring in by phone, Neal Katyal, former U.S. acting solicitor general during the Obama administration. In that role, Neal approved and took charge of all of the government`s appeals.
Neal, thank you for joining on such short notice.
Your reaction to this filing by the DOJ it`s not the full appeal. It`s a request for a stay. What`s the meaningful difference there? Is there one? And where in the game are we?
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST (via telephone): So thank you, Alex. So some appeals kind of write themselves and this one does because Judge Cannon`s decision yesterday I think is probably the worst the single most atrocious trial court decision I`ve ever read, and that`s saying a lot.
And so, the department I think had a choice of how much do they want to appeal and how much they want to go up on in what`s called an emergency stay, which is a temporary pause on her ruling. And what they did is they said the most important part they`re going to go and seek emergency relief from the court of appeals. That`s the hundred or so very sensitive national security documents.
The department`s pretty clear the whole entire order by Judge Cannon is to use the legal term nutso, but they`re not appealing the whole legal order right now. They`re just appealing the really bad part of these documents. And so, what they say is that the criminal investigation will be hampered that that this judge is literally saying, you can`t use these documents on the criminal prosecution. They`re saying the national security review is going to be hampered because you need criminal investigators to do that. You can`t — the CIA doesn`t operate for example on United States soil, so you need FBI agents and the like with their full suite of cowards.
And most importantly, this is what you were saying a moment ago, for these kinds of highly national and highly sensitive national security documents, there`s no claim whatsoever that Donald Trump owns these documents, zero, every day of the week.
WAGNER: Yeah. That — we repeated it twice because it`s very strong language in this. Trump`s only possible injury is the government`s investigation but that injury is not legally cognizable. That doesn`t seem up for much dispute.
Do you — I mean, what`s your expectation here in terms of the 11th Circuit agreeing with the Department of Justice on this?
KATYAL: I can`t imagine that the 11th Circuit will disagree and I think the department is on incredibly strong footing. I mean, some — I don`t think people can even really disagree much about the whole special master ruling by her. I mean, remember was Bill Barr, you know, Trump`s attorney general who said that this special master request is a crock of S word, and frankly I think that`s unfair to crocks.
But her decision last night was like a crock of a crock of something. And I think it`ll be quickly decided, Alex. So I suspect the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals will ask Trump`s lawyers to respond by Monday or possibly Tuesday to have a quick ruling thereafter.
I mean, this should not take much time. I mean, the other Donald Trump could hire resurrect Daniel Webster, the greatest, you know, Supreme Court advocate uh in the United States history and it wouldn`t matter. He`s got no argument, zero argument, with these hundred documents, he has barely an argument on the whole special master thing as a whole. And I do expect the 11th circuit to do the right thing here.
I mean, after all, you know, what Judge Cannon said yesterday, Alex, and justifying her order was Donald Trump is different, he`s special, because he`s a former president. He gets privileges that literally no one else gets and there`s not been another case in the history of this country in which someone has gotten the kind of privileges that Judge Cannon gave to him, and gave to him because he was a former president.
And you know in America, we don`t have two systems of justice, one for the president and one for everyone else. So, you know, the 11th Circuit, the case law is very good, the Justice Department goes out of its way to cite an opinion from the former chief judge of the 11th Circuit which says, you know, federal stopping in trying to prevent documents from being used in criminal investigations.
Neal Katyal, former U.S. acting solicitor general, thank you so much for your expertise, joining us at this last-minute late night breaking news. Much appreciated, Neal.
KATYAL: My privilege. Thank you.
[21:30:00]
WAGNER: And joining us now is David Rohde, executive editor of TheNewYorke.com.
David, thanks for being here.
I want to follow on what Neal Katyal was saying that Judge Cannon`s ruling last night was the single most atrocious trial decision I`ve ever read and the hope of course is that the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals agrees with that. But the reality is that we are in a moment in American politics where we have to look at who appointed judges as an indicator of what they might do, and there are six Trump appointed judges sitting on the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.
I find it distressing that the appointment the presidential appointment matters so very much but Cannon has showed us a new side of the judiciary that should be distressing to anybody and you`ve written about this. How are you looking at this moment?
DAVID ROHDE, THENEWYORKER.COM: It is unprecedented and it`s a deeply disappointing ruling, you know, that she came out with yesterday.
I want to point out the positive part here.
WAGNER: Please?
ROHDE: Which is that you know the judiciary was actually the branch of government that fought Trump the most in 2020. More than 80 judges, 80 state and federal judges flat out rejected his claims of election fraud. This was this key period in November and December, nearly half of them were Republican-appointed judges and some of them were Trump appointed judges.
So, it was vital. It was a great moment for democracy. You know, one branch judiciary branch holding back an out-of-control president. What`s happened you know with Judge Cannon has sort of turned all that on its head.
So I`m hoping — I`m hoping that these judges at the appellate court, these Trump appointees, will do the right thing as other Trump appointees did as well. And again, the special master, Judge Dearie, he was appointed by Ronald Reagan.
WAGNER: Yes.
ROHDE: So it`s possible, but this shows the kind of slow, corrosive effect of Trump just pressuring judges, wanting everyone to be political and everyone to be loyal to him.
WAGNER: Well, yes, and one would hope that the humiliation of, you know, acting solicitor generals, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, other judges elsewhere in the country, would have a cooling effect on judges who would model themselves in Judge Cannon`s image.
But you have to wonder whether it will. I mean, there are other young judges that Trump has appointed who have made other rulings that have been similarly beneficial for the Trump administration, whether it`s mask mandates.
ROHDE: Mask mandates.
WAGNER: And the like. And I sort of wonder if there`s an analog to what`s happened in the legislature, in the legislative branch, right? You know, you have these single outliers, people who seem like fringe candidates and what we have seen and we see it right now heading into November, is that it is a virus, and it affects and infects a much larger swath of the conservative movement than I think any of us dared to think possible.
ROHDE: Yeah, it`s sort of this alternate reality thing this whole different world, and what was so disturbing about Judge Cannon`s ruling yesterday was that she was almost echoing Trump`s sort of world view. She said you can`t trust the DOJ.
WAGNER: Yes.
ROHDE: She said there`s been these media leaks. I don`t know exactly what she`s referring to and she said as Neal talked about that a former president deserves these special considerations under the law which is just un-American, fundamentally un-American. I mean, throughout this appeal, they cite United States versus Richard Nixon.
WAGNER: Yes.
ROHDE: And that was that, you know, no one is above the law in this country, the Presidential Records Act, which is that government documents belong to the people and this very narrow appeal is for, you know, documents that are marked classified belong to the government. They don`t belong to Donald Trump.
WAGNER: Well, and the idea that she casts doubt on the government`s assertion that these are classified documents, after a season in which Trump and his lawyers have lied, obfuscated, misinformed on like every count imaginable for a year. The suggestion is it`s the Department of Justice that we might not trust.
Quote: even-handed procedure does not demand unquestioning trust in the determinations of the Department of Justice.
But we have photographs of these folders that have the words top secret and classified on them.
ROHDE: But — I agree with you and what`s I guess so disturbing, it`s very disturbing now that it`s a federal judge, but this is again how divided we are. And my worry is that he saw that your judicial branch stood up to him. He complained throughout his presidency when there would be these judges that would rule against him on immigration, on anything he wanted, and he dismissed them as sort of Obama judges.
So he wants the public to think these aren`t neutral arbiters. They`re just, you know, loyal to whatever president puts them together, and my fear — I do think he`ll run in 2024, and I think he`s sort of it`s a Viktor Orban, the leader — the authoritarian leader of Hungary, his playbook. You kind of discredit the judiciary. You discredit a rival source of power over time and, you know, if let`s say, 2024 disputed election, and judges do the right thing and they ruled against Trump, he will have discredited them in the eyes of the country.
WAGNER: And, by the way, it works both ways. A lot of people look at what Judge Cannon did and say, can we really trust the courts anymore? The institutional atrophy is uniform across partisan lines.
David Rohde, executive editor of thenewyorker.com, thanks for being here tonight, David.
ROHDE: Thank you.
WAGNER: Still ahead, New Hampshire`s Republican Senate nominee has been one of the country`s staunchest election deniers, but something caused him to have a change of heart this week.
[21:35:07]
That story is straight ahead.
Stay with us.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON BOLDUC, NEW HAMPSHIRE GOP SENATE CANDIDATE: I signed a letter with 120 other generals and admirals saying that Trump won the election and damn it, I stand by my (INAUDIBLE).
(CHEERS)
[21:40:04]
I`m not switching horses, baby. This is it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: That was General Don Bolduc in a debate last month, assuring New Hampshire`s conservative voters that he believed the election was stolen. Trump won, Biden lost, that`s how he saw it and he is not switching horses, baby.
Then this Tuesday happened. General Bolduc won the Republican primary in New Hampshire to face off with Democratic incumbent Senator Maggie Hassan in November. And on Thursday, Thursday, General Bolduc made one of the sharpest u-turns in political history. Here he is on Fox just two days after winning that primary.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
INTERVIEWER: One of the things that Maggie Hassan, the Senate incumbent, will say is that you are an election denier, that you deny that President Biden won the 2020 election, and there`s this from August 14th when you had a debate. Watch here.
BOLDUC: I signed a letter with 120 other generals and admirals saying that Trump won the election and damn it I stand by (INAUDIBLE).
INTERVIEWER: Do you stand by that today?
BOLDUC: So, you know, we — we — you know, live and learn, right? And I`ve done a lot of research on this and I`ve spent in the past couple of weeks talking to Granite Staters all over the stat, from — you know, every party, and I have come to the conclusion and I want to be definitive on this. The election was not stolen.
Elections have consequences and unfortunately, President Biden is the legitimate president of this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: So, you know, we — we, you know, we live and learn, right? I mean, my Lord, talk about switching horses midstream, baby. But as transparent of a ruse as this is it is also strategic. New polling by Emerson College conducted the day after Bolduc won the primary shows that Senator Hassan leads Bolduc by 11 points statewide. Bolduc knows that what worked in the primary won`t work in the general. So he is toning it down. He is at least pretending to switch horses on issues like respecting the results of the 2020 election in an attempt to appear more moderate.
And in a truly amazing case of projection, Bolduc and the conservative groups supporting him are accusing Senator Hassan of exactly the thing that Bolduc is doing. They are claiming that she is a radical liberal pretending to be a moderate. Yes, really. They are trying to paint Maggie Hassan as the wolf in sheep`s clothing. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Maggie Hassan claims she`s independent.
SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D-NH): I`m taking on members of my own party.
ANNOUNCER: She`s trying to trick you, because Hassan votes with Joe Biden over 96 percent of the time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WAGNER: She`s trying to trick you. As ridiculous as this is, there is also of course, the danger that with enough advertising dollars and blanket denials, Bolduc`s trick here may work. He could convince enough voters to see him as a moderate and that could be enough to sway the election. And if New Hampshire`s seat switches parties so by the way does the control of the U.S. Senate.
Senator Hassan only won her last election by a thousand votes, so each and every one of them counts.
Joining us now is Senator Maggie Hassan herself of the great state of New Hampshire.
Senator Hassan, thank you for being with us.
SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D-NH): Thanks so much for having me, Alex.
WAGNER: So, is this — first of all, General Bolduc says he`s been talking to residents across — the people across the Granite State and he`s determined that the 2020 election wasn`t stolen. Who`s he been talking to? Has he been talking to you? Is the strategy going to work?
HASSAN: Well, look, on issue after issue, Don Bolduc is incredibly extreme, whether it is election denial or whether it is his support for a national abortion ban and he is trying to mislead Granite Staters and really hide his extreme record.
Now, of course, the thing is that New Hampshire voters are some of the most informed in the country, and the fact that he thinks he can get away with this, that he`s trying to do it is not only really concerning, it`s very disrespectful to my constituents.
WAGNER: Does that, I mean, also call attention to the ver — I mean, his desire to paint you as a sort of turncoat, as a liar, as a wolf in sheep`s clothing, it is a — I mean, I`m not going to comment on the actual essence of that. But does it not risk pointing the arrow back to himself as someone who is literally making a giant U-turn on a very, very big election issue that he campaigned on in the primary?
HASSAN: Look, he is clearly trying to mislead voters and Granite Staters will see through this because his record is really clear. Just in August twice on the debate stage, he said he believed the election was stolen. He`s been traveling around the state for over a year, stoking that big lie, and he`s also open to abolishing the FBI, says he would defund Homeland Security and would eliminate Social Security, not to mention support a nationwide abortion ban.
[21:45:13]
So I will be contrasting his extreme record with my record of delivering results, including the fact that I`ve been ranked the most bipartisan senator in the United States because I follow the example of the people of Granite State. We come together and we get things done. We`re — we value our opinions and our disagreements, and our right to have them, but we also uh like to move forward and get things done. And so, there`s a real contrast in this race.
But to one of the earlier points you made, Don Bolduc is very, very extreme as you have pointed out, but tonight he is in Sea Island, Georgia, with a bunch of big money donors for Republicans, hanging out with Dr. Oz and Herschel Walker. So the Republicans are rallying around him. They are projected to be spending tens of millions of dollars in the next seven weeks in this election.
This is going to be a really, really close race. We are as we say up here wicked independent in New Hampshire and voters expect us to make their case every — our case every single time to earn their vote. So I just also would encourage your viewers if you want to get involved to go to maggiehassan.com.
WAGNER: The idea of Herschel Walker, Mehmet Oz, and Don Bolduc being in a room together is the beginning of some kind of — I know there`s a joke somewhere that begins with that scenario. I will not comment further on that except to say,. I do want to ask you about abortion. There is a back and forth right now inside the Republican Party over leaving it to the states or a federal ban.
What about the Democrats though? I know you have said that you would like to codify Roe into law. If you are re-elected to the U.S. Senate, Manchin and Sinema have said they will not support a filibuster, how do you codify Roe without breaking the filibuster and effectively establishing a carve out wherein you can pass a nationwide — enshrine Roe to law and override the filibuster if you would?
HASSAN: I want to be really clear here. People all over New Hampshire are horrified by the prospect of a nationwide abortion ban. Don Bolduc supports one. He said we should rejoice at the overturning of Roe v. Wade. I can assure you that the women of New Hampshire are not rejoicing. We are horrified.
But I think it is really important, Alex, moving forward that people understand that now that Roe has fallen, the Republicans are pursuing their ultimate goal which is a nationwide abortion ban. It`s something McConnell`s been after for decades. It`s something that McCarthy supports. Mike Pence has called on people to continue to work on, and then we saw Lindsey Graham introduce legislation to enact a nationwide abortion ban.
So the focus needs to be and people need to understand that what is at stake in November is a nationwide abortion ban. We should not let any Republican candidate, including Don Bolduc, fool anybody about their ultimate position. Don Bolduc has said he would always vote yes for any anti-choice legislation and has said that New Hampshire`s recently enacted abortion ban doesn`t go far enough. So that`s what`s on the table right now.
I just spent time with a woman tonight in New Hampshire a young mom who said she`s never been involved in politics before but it is the overturning of roe v wade and the fact that her a very young daughter will have fewer rights than she`s had, that has gotten her involved and I`m hearing that all over the country.
WAGNER: Do you think you can deliver for that young mom as far as enshrining row into law?
HASSAN: I think the focus now has to be keeping the Senate majority with the Democrats so that we don`t see a nationwide abortion ban, and then I hope we can expand our Senate majority, and I would love to see some bipartisanship here to protect this fundamental freedom of women. One of the things that just kind of astonishes me is that we have people like Don Bolduc running for office, saying they want to represent the state of New Hampshire in the United States Senate when they would take away the rights of half of our population, pulling us back to being second-class citizens.
WAGNER: Maggie Hassan, senator from the great state of New Hampshire, thank you for your time tonight.
HASSAN: Thanks so much, Alex. Be safe.
WAGNER: More to come tonight. Stay with us.
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[21:54:10]
WAGNER: In recent days and weeks, Ukrainian forces have station incredibly effective counteroffensive against occupying Russian troops. Ukrainian soldiers have re-captured towns held by Russia for months, and the Russian army is in retreat. This week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy made a surprise visit to the newly liberated town of Izyum, where he raised the Ukrainian flag over the city for the first time in months.
For the joy in triumph of this Ukrainian victory is now giving way to the grim evidence of what the Russians did during their occupation. Today, a mass grave site was uncovered in a pine forest in Izyum. Ukrainian officials say it could contain more than 400 bodies. If that bears out would be the largest such mass grave and covered in the entire war.
President Zelenskyy he said today that somebody showed evidence of torture, including a body with a noose around its neck and broken arms.
[21:55:01]
Ukrainian officials say several bodies were found with their hands tied behind their backs, and that several so-called torture chambers had been found in newly liberated areas. There are 440 unmarked graves at the burial site in Izyum, and another gruesome work is underway to exhume the bodies and to collect evidence of possible war crimes.
These latest horrors are coming to light just as world leaders are preparing to gather in New York for the United Nations General Assembly next week, where Ukraine will be a major focus.
Among the U.S. government officials attending the general assembly will be Samantha Power. She is head of the U.S. Agency for International Development, USAID, which means she`s at the forefront of managing the global food crisis caused by Russia`s invasion of Ukraine. But beyond that, Samantha Power is one of the world`s experts on war crimes and genocide and on bringing perpetrators of such wars to justice. And she will be joining me here live in studio on Monday night, especially at this moment where the tide of war in Ukraine appears to be turning, I have so much to ask her.
Monday night — you will not want to miss it.
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WAGNER: That does it for us tonight. Rachel is off on Monday, so I will see you again right here on Monday night.
Up next is a special report by NBC`s Richard Engel, “On Assignment Ukraine: The Search for Justice” starts now.