Updated
Summary
DOJ prosecutors rest its case against Bannon after just two witnesses, showing confidence in their contempt of Congress case. Judge ruled former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani must testify in the probe into Trump`s efforts to overthrow Georgia elections. There is new scrutiny on one of the US`s most notorious prisons. In one of the “MAVERICKS” series, Dave Grohl the Foo Fighters singer is interviewed by Ari Melber and they talk about Grohl`s meeting with Obama, world tours, and inspiration over adulation.
Transcript
NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: We are grateful. THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER starts right now.
Hi, Ari.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Hi, Nicolle. Thank you. Welcome to THE BEAT. We begin with breaking news.
In a clear display of legal confidence, we can report tonight, the Justice Department is formally resting its criminal case against Trump aide, Steve Bannon. This is a very deliberate legal strategy and we have it covered for you. They called only two witnesses. Prosecutors laying out the case in just two days. That`s fast, even for a simple case.
“Politico`s” Josh Gerstein was inside the courtroom. He`s been covering all of this and has firsthand reporting from outside the court about all of this including the late-breaking news. He joins me in a moment in this segment. I`m just going to tell you what else we have coming because we`re tracking a separate and new criminal subpoena for Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani.
There`s also some signs tonight the January 6th probe is breaking through with independents and the younger TikTok crowd. In fact Michael Steele will be here for a segment that we hope will be as sharp as it is viral. Perhaps. It`s a TikTok reference.
Then by the end of the hour, we are going to be talking Bob Dylan, Barack Obama and Kurt Cobain with the rock icon you see here. The one and only Dave Grohl on THE BEAT tonight for our special “Mavericks” interview. You might say the energy is contagious. Here we are now. Entertain us. But it`s too early in the broadcast for lyrics. Even for THE BEAT. So let`s just get to this top story.
Judgment day for Steve Bannon. The prosecution resting after calling the witnesses that they say will prove Bannon`s guilt and send him to prison. We`re going to get into this with Mr. Gerstein as I mentioned but there is a method to the speed of the DOJ prosecutors. They are conveying to these jurors that this ain`t a complex case and you only two witnesses to prove it. One of them was the FBI agent who spoke out today and shredded what may have been one of Bannon`s only defenses if you`re following the facts.
It`s the claim that we reported on last night. Bannon`s lawyers say that Bannon wanted to cooperate and this was somehow a misunderstanding. Well, today, this agent who I can now report is half of the entire witness block of the prosecutors, this agent said under oath that Bannon`s lawyer was informed of the deadline for the subpoena the whole time and never even claimed or mentioned that he or his client were confused about it.
So that`s what the defense has to deal with. And it backs up testimony that Congress officially warned Bannon of the possible criminal charges if he defied the subpoena which we know he went ahead and did. Prosecutors are pushing evidence that Bannon knew what he was getting into, while the defense was pushing questions like this about whether Congress had asked former President Trump to explore getting rid of executive privilege and that drew this reply in court.
“The answer is no. The assumption of your question,” this was directed to the Bannon side. The president had exerted privilege is not accurate. No privilege, no excuse, and no confusion about the law that Bannon was breaking. That`s DOJ`s argument. For his part Bannon speaking out on the court steps again today making the odd claim about who gets to talk and who is being forced into silence. I`m going to address this on the other side of this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST TO DONALD TRUMP: The global elites, the “Financial Times of London,” everybody on the city of London, Wall Street, the multinational corporations, they`re the ones trying to shut me up. They will never shut me up and never shut me down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The man indicted for refusing to talk now says other people are trying to shut him up. To silence him. Now, as a factual matter, Mr. Bannon could have talked and testified like other witnesses. Had he faced Congress which is what he`s legally required to, it`s not supposed to be any kind of choice, had he done that and then walked out to hold a press conference or do interviews, they would be covered.
He is one of the last people in the world who can claim that he doesn`t have access to be heard, amplified platform. And by the way, his colleagues have talked under oath and on TV and even on this program. The only person who muzzled Bannon is Bannon, which is why some legal experts think his current defense is an uphill battle and maybe why the DOJ is taking this bold , bullish strategy to tell the jurors there`s not much to see here. It doesn`t take long to explain. Now make up your mind.
As promised, we turn to really the perfect guest we could get tonight. Josh Gerstein, legal affairs reporter for “Politico.” He has had many scoops in his day, if you`re watching the news. You have probably watched him on the news before. Today he`s here because he has covering this, who was inside that courtroom today.
[18:05:03]
Welcome to THE BEAT, sir.
JOSH GERSTEIN, POLITICO SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS REPORTER: Hey, Ari, good to be back with you.
MELBER: Absolutely. Tell us about resting the case this fast? How did that play out in the room?
GERSTEIN: Well, it was pretty abrupt, that FBI witness you mentioned, Stephen Hart, was on the stand I would say for only 15 or 20 minutes maybe. He was the second prosecution witness and after a very brief examination and cross-examination, you know, a couple of questions about a proper session, Bannon`s attorney made where there didn`t seem to be any mention that Bannon didn`t know there was a deadline or was looking for an extension. They posted a couple of Getter postings from Bannon`s Getter account that showed him boasting about not complying with the subpoena.
And after a little bit of cross-examination, that was about it. And one of the prosecutors stood up and said, and the government rests. And so, you know, we`re going to go tomorrow morning and to some motions and then perhaps we`ll see a defense case or not. But I think most of us were pretty surprised. But it`s definitely a sign, as you say, Ari, that the prosecution is confident that they can persuade the jury this is very simple.
Mr. Bannon was subpoenaed. He didn`t show up and he has delivered zero documents to the committee, the many, many categories of documents they have asked for.
MELBER: You`ve covered a lot of legal issues in your day, sir. Could you glean any reaction from the judge, the jury or Mr. Bannon himself when abruptly, as you said, these prosecutors said we rest?
GERSTEIN: I don`t think they were that surprised. The prosecution had indicated that it really didn`t plan more than maybe two or three witnesses total all along. They`ve always been saying this is a very simple case.
Bannon was upset a little bit earlier in the government`s case when there was discussion about this meeting his lawyer had. He seemed to feel it was dirty pool for an FBI agent to be testifying about his lawyer`s meeting with prosecutors from the U.S. attorney`s office and what he said and what he didn`t say. But the judge allowed the testimony.
I could see that Bannon was shaking his head. He was turning a little red in the courtroom, but, you know, within minutes, he was out on the steps doing his thing once again. Not showing that he`d been knocked off his stride at all.
MELBER: Right. And you`re someone who has that front row seat. So you see the difference between that brash presentation we`re getting day after day, waving the newspapers around or what have you, and what`s actually happening in court as I`ll remind viewers. The federal court rules do not allow cameras in court, so we have the sketches, we have you. And as you say, it sounds like as a smart defendant, he may have known and reacted in real time to what have been setbacks.
The parts of this case that have had back and forth have been fairly limited. We read one here in the opening news, Josh, about the fact that they didn`t have privilege. That seemed to get shot down. I want to read from your reporting about another little moment where you say that some of the questions verged on the, quote, “absurd.” One witness asked there, do you read nonfiction? I believe this is by the cross-exam by Bannon`s lawyer.
Is it accurate to say most of the members of your book club work together as Democratic staff for one of the committees? And it went on like that. Since you reported it, walk us through what that little absurdity was, but also what I suppose it may convey about the limits or the thin read that the defense`s questions are built on right now?
GERSTEIN: Right, Ari. So the defense is trying to suggest that because one time Kristin Amerling who`s the chief counsel for the January 6th Committee has been part of a book club that`s been going for a decade and a half here in Washington with some other staffers from Democratic committees on the Hill, one of whom also is the prosecutor on this case currently and has been a prosecutor for several years here.
She says she doesn`t know the prosecutor well, but they do happen to be members of the same book club and we saw the defense devote some time to that issue today I think trying to suggest this is a Democratic vendetta.
I do think, I will say, Ari, I think that Bannon has a little better chance than people are suggesting because his lawyers have been pretty skillful at backdooring in many of the theories that the judge has ruled out as legal defenses. So executive privilege is not a legal defense for Bannon at this trial, but the jury learned about the claims of executive privilege.
You know, the fact that Bannon offered a couple of weeks ago to come in and testify in a confusing and conditional kind of offer is not a defense to the charges in this case. Yet today, the jury learned about Bannon`s offer to come in and testify. And so the defense has been, as I say, fairly successful in letting the jurors know about these argument that the judge may tell the jury to disregard.
[18:10:04]
Of course, we never know in the final analysis whether one or two jurors might latch onto one of those things and perhaps refuse to convict for that reason.
MELBER: Yes, Josh, I hope people are listening closely because we can`t predict anything in this business, but we know we will be covering the end of this case. Whether that`s a conviction or not, guilty verdict or a mistrial we will cover the end of it. And if it is short of a conviction, it may very well be for the reason you just said. The judge will tell legally the jurors that all of that last-minute talk about maybe I`ll come in if it`s live, maybe I`ll come if it`s prime time.
I mean, not legally significant offers as we`ve covered. But if they get that in, one or two jurors get confused about that or even though the judge says that`s not a defense, if they think that, and it sways them as the rule is, reasonable doubt in their mind, that could make a big difference. So I appreciate you pointing out all of the sides of the case here tonight for our coverage, Josh.
Thank you.
GERSTEIN: Thanks, Ari. Happy to do it.
MELBER: Thank you, sir.
There`s a lot going on. Rudy Giuliani just hit with a new criminal subpoena and our own Michael Steele is here after our shortest break tonight. We`re back with Michael in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: Our show continues. A lot going on. Michael Steele is here and we turn to this escalation in the Georgia probe where a judge is formally ordering Rudy Giuliani to testify to this grand jury. Prosecutors say there is evidence Giuliani was part of a coordinated plan to influence the results. The grand jury has been looking at this and how he faced legislators in the state. Here`s what one lawmaker described to us earlier this month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE SEN. JEN JORDAN (D-GA): It was surreal. You know, you walk in and there`s Rudy Giuliani. I`m literally Googling who is John Eastman when he pops up. And he purported to be giving expert testimony, you know, on the Georgia Constitution and Georgia law, and the man isn`t even a Georgia lawyer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael, your thoughts.
MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIR: Well, I mean, it just kind of sums the whole game up right there. You know, Rudy played a particular role for Donald Trump. He was, if nothing else, the great disruptor. He was the guy who was sent into sort of create and foment the chaos, to raise the questions, to stir the anxieties of the established order and to excite the base as best they could.
There was no legal pretense that Donald Trump was being represented by Rudy Giuliani, even though they`ll now try to claim privilege here and attorney- client relationship there. But the reality of it is that clip right there tells you everything you need to know. He was sent in to do a thing, without knowing who the other players who were also a part of this narrative were sent to do. But he didn`t have to.
And I think what is interesting about the Georgia case which I believe may be a little bit problematic for someone like Lindsey Graham is the connective tissue in the narrative. The language used. The questions that were inquired upon. Lindsey says, well, it`s my duty to inquire about how these elections are run.
MELBER: Right.
STEELE: Well, you`re asking the same questions that Rudy Giuliani and others who are trying to overturn this selection were asking. So there`s a lot of connective tissue here and at the center of that tissue is not just Trump, but someone like Rudy Giuliani who was out there to pull the extra strings that needed to be pulled.
MELBER: Yes. Yes. It all makes sense. Michael, you and I have talked about this on air and off, the way that parts of the insurrection hearing are breaking through. There`s an old expression, some people have heard of it. It`s called real Tok when you really get real. But there`s a new school expression, Michael, and I know that you`re pretty hip. You know, people can make up their own minds. But that`s real Tok, T-O-K, because a lot of people are using TikTok and other social media to share their reactions.
[18:15:08]
I would say like Twitter is like for media and political junkies and that`s fine.
STEELE: Right.
MELBER: What you see on Facebook and now TikTok is a lot more of the rest of the nation. That`s why you could find everything —
STEELE: Yes, it`s real.
MELBER: It`s real. What`s going on in schools, community centers, sports. You know, people`s reactions to things. Recipes. So we`ve actually done a little bit of reporting here to look at what people are saying because there`s this emerging consensus here in the reporting and in Trump`s orbit that the drip of revelation has some Republicans just getting tired of Trump. We`ve seen polling that independents have paid attention to these hearings. And here`s some of just a sampling of what regular Americans are saying around the nation and posting online about. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is riveting. It is terrifying. It is enraging. It is sickening and every one of us needs to watch it, you all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re having hearings about a sitting president who attempted to overthrow the United States of America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People don`t try to go hang someone with their selfie sticks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The surprise witness was Cassidy Hutchinson and her testimony just blew the roof off of the investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To hear Giuliani say they were passing ballots back and forth like cocaine and heroin made me want to vomit. He is vile, racist and disgusting, and so is Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are witch hunts, these witch trials, they can just — it`s just pomp and circumstance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trump, you`re going down, dude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Michael, you see these hearings breaking through. We saw reactions there from people, both reacting to the evidence as this committee presented it and some pushing back. What do you see going into the final hearing about this actually reaching people?
STEELE: Well, what that says to me is how much these hearings have captured the conversation for people. How much people are willing to express. You`re not hearing people say, oh my god, this is a witch hunt. This is a waste of time. And I`m sure that in certain environments, that`s there. Certainly being pushed from Trump supporters. But mainstream America which, you know, often gets reflected in these other types of outlets on social medias like TikTok and Facebook, you know, they`re expressing raw reaction to what they`re hearing and what they`re seeing.
So it tells me that the committee has done a very good job, Ari, of framing this conversation, not in a political context or way, but in a very open way which you take the information, you absorb it and you draw your own conclusions from what you`re hearing. And with the conclusion that a lot of Americans are drawing as they continue to watch this and it`s actually rather episodic, is damn, right?
Everyone is walking around — I mean, I`ve talking to people who go, I just can`t believe this. And so that is going to be very important as — and I think this committee should go right to January 3rd. I think they should go right up until the next Congress comes in, get through the elections and see whether or not the Republicans have control of the House because if they don`t, you can continue some of that work if you feel you`re up against a wall.
If they do have control, then you know you`ve got a window of about six to eight weeks to ramp it down, but you will have already not put the pressure on yourself to shut it down in August or September. But really fare it out, which I think Americans want as much information as they can get because they want to know what happened. And that`s something the Republicans can`t control at this point.
MELBER: Yes. You really lay it out. That makes sense and we are seeing in all the different ways that we can measure it people summoned and summoned to look at the evidence. And that`s going to continue of course tomorrow night.
Michael Steele, always good to have you, sir.
STEELE: All right, my friend. You know, I thought you were going to do another TikTok, but we won`t go there.
MELBER: I think I know the one you`re speaking of.
(LAUGHTER)
MELBER: If people want to know what Michael is talking about, you`ll have to go — by the end of the hour, I`ll remind people where to find all the TikToks. I appreciate the shoutout.
Thank you, Michael.
STEELE: All right.
MELBER: Let me tell folks what`s coming up. Yes, sir. The indicted Trump aide Peter Navarro is actually filling in for the other indicted Trump aide, Mr. Bannon, while he`s on trial. We`ll explain the significant part of why that matters because of a former Navarro aide just testified to the committee. And later we are going to hear the rock `n roll icon Dave Grohl on everything from “Nirvana” to why he sat down with Barack Obama and heard about his passion for music.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: He was a huge musical influence to me. You know, he was somebody who reminded me of how powerful the American story can be told through music.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:24:19]
MELBER: If you are an indicted Trump aide going on trial, but you have a podcast, who fills in for you when you`re gone? I know it may seem like a smaller news question, but we do have the answer with Steve Bannon in court for a trial where prosecutors rested today. The person filling in for him is the other indicted Trump aide awaiting trial, former White House adviser Peter Navarro who is facing a trial for the same type of charges. Hiding evidence. Defying the committee. But he is out there filling in for his co- indictee if you will, and also attacking the committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Peter J. Navarro sitting in for Stephen K. Bannon today.
[18:25:00]
What this kangaroo committee is doing in their investigation is handing out unlawful subpoenas. Seven of the nine members, Democrats, essentially participated in coup d`etats.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Now who disagrees with Mr. Navarro? Virtually every one of his former colleagues. Donald Trump`s own children who`ve all cooperated. And Mr. Navarro`s own former White House aide , Garrett Ziegler. He just went in, meaning he did not defy. And he exercised his constitutional right, and we`ve mentioned this on the program. You have the right to do this. He took the Fifth over 100 times, then he also went out on his form of media, on the Telegram app, to talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARRETT ZIEGLER, FORMER WHITE HOUSE AIDE TO PETER NAVARRO: If they have a problem with me, they have a problem with the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Fifth Amendment. They are Bolsheviks, so they probably do hate the American founders, and most white people in general, this is a Bolshevistic anti- white campaign.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Mr. Ziegler may have some very offensive and incorrect views but this is America, he has the right to share them. He also has the right to plead the Fifth. What he does not have the right to do is defy subpoenas. Something he and his boss still disagree on.
We`re going to fit in a break but when we come back, we have a lot planned for you including Barack Obama on culture, art with a very special guest. But first coming up next, I want to share with you something very important to us here on THE BEAT. It`s about justice. It`s about change and in a time of so much hopelessness, it`s about hope. It`s something I`ve written for you and I`m going to share it with you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:31:22]
MELBER: Turn out as something important we want to share with you. This pandemic has offended virtually every part of government, that includes prisons, the crisis has sparked a rethinking of why so many people are locked up for so long and issue many reformers have pushed for decades. But the pandemic drove action like this.
Over the span of a few months in 2020, governments released 200,000 inmates earlier than scheduled because of COVID, including prominent figures ranging from Trump that`s Paul Manafort, and Michael Cohen. To the controversial artist turned informant, Tekashi69 who got out early even with a racketeering conviction.
Now violent convicts were not generally released. A pandemic does not get you out of a life sentence. Experts on criminal justice say this whole experiment goes beyond the pandemic, however. As civil rights protesters and others have long argued if this kind of health emergency push states to admit there was no public health risk, to letting some people out and why not continue rethinking America`s harsh prison policies.
Remember, the U.S. has some of the longest harshest sentences in the world. 10 times other democracies like the Netherlands, and those are just statistics, then there are people, harsh policies that discriminate against minorities and the poor are affecting real people. And governments claiming public safety can end up clashing with the larger issues here.
They can cause more danger than the charges they`re supposed to address with these prison policies. Let me give an example. Take Kalief Browder. He was an innocent 22-year-old never convicted of anything. He was legally innocent in the eyes of the system. He was awaiting a trial that was held for two years in solitary confinement then died in a jail at Rikers in a reported suicide.
Now, what crime was he charged with, while still legally innocent? What was he waiting trial for? Stealing a backpack. The prison system held him for longer before trial, that petty offense of stealing a backpack and that`s a prison overseen by down in Mississippi. Republicans run one of the most notorious, dangerous, and discriminatory prisons in the world.
10 inmates have been killed there. 12 dying by suicide in just the last two years alone. Prisoners live in conditions that violate human rights, completely out-of-control violence, abuse of solitary confinement for months at a time, which is a type of torture. And if any of this sounds familiar, it`s the same prison.
That old school Jim Crow politicians were using to terrorize the Freedom Riders. Remember them? Who were advocating just basic racial equality all the way back in 1961. They help Stokely Carmichael there. Advocates have protested this prison for a long time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are here because we`re sick and tired of state- sanctioned murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 18 inmates have died in Mississippi`s prison system since the end of December. 10 of them at the States Penitentiary in Parchman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have inmates literally sitting in the darkness. Sitting in water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roaches and mice. We wouldn`t accept it for animals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No human being is supposed to live like them brothers are living in Parchman and they damn sure he`s supposed to die like they died in Parchman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They our babies, our husbands, our wives, our children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Justice Department is now investigating the state`s prison.
[18:35:00]
MELBER: Major set for criminal justice reform in Mississippi today, the DOJ formally condemning the notorious Parchman prison.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut it down. Shut it down. Now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hopefully a roadmap is created with place that will make this prison more safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We just coming today. We don`t stop today. We don`t stop tomorrow. We`re going to free the land, we`re going to free our land, and we`re going to free every one man that needs the man. God bless.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Free, everyone. And freedom we know can be a long time coming. As you see we`ve covered this very prison here on this program, including the lawsuits that document human rights abuses there, backed by artists, like Roc nations, Yo Gotti.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YO GOTTI, RAPPER: It means about trying to make sure everybody gets treated like humans, make sure these prisoners are not living in inhumane conditions. I understand the people in prison still human. You know, you want your — everybody want it, their brother, mother, father to be treated as such.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Still human. Fact check, true. Literally. The constitution requires humane conditions and human rights for people in prison. And all this pressure you see here is actually working. Let me tell you how. This Garland Justice Department actually found human rights abuse through an April investigation that puts formal legal pressure on the prison to change into court.
The DOJ detailing savage conditions, torture abuse, the deprivation of medical care to inmates who were found beaten or stabbed, as well as lethal and illegal temperatures of units that were reaching 140 degrees temperature. That`s leading to action like a headline just this week. The prison is adding air conditioning units. After a century of scalding summers.
The DOJ also securing a conviction of a warden at that same prison for assaulting an inmate and then trying to cover it up. He awaits sentencing in September. So, there is some real, measurable change. At least where there are facts and pressure. That brings us to what I also wanted you to know, I`ll be moderating a panel on this very president reforms at a justice summit in New York this Saturday.
A gathering that includes House Democratic Caucus Chair Hakeem Jeffries, and our panel on Saturday includes, Yo Gotti, who you just heard talking about that lawsuit. Cheryl Henderson, whose son Chadarion was found dead inside the prison, and other reformers. You can join us in New York, you can register now for free at UnitedJusticeCoalition.com/UJC-Summit.
You see that link there or even easier, go to THE BEAT with Ari Twitter page for the link. That`s this Saturday at 12:30 p.m. in Manhattan. You can go to the link on your screen or just remember to look up THE BEAT Twitter. THE BEAT with Ari on Twitter, it will be our top link for the next several days. If you`re new in New York and you want to join us we think this is a worthwhile conversation to have.
So, thank you for listening. Thank you for caring, I`m going to fit in a break and then we turn to why Barack Obama says we can learn about America from Bob Dylan. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:42:49]
MELBER: So, Barack Obama, Bob Dylan, and Dave Grohl walk into a bar. It might sound like a dream trio. But the former president, the folk icon, and Foo Fighters and Nirvana rocker Dave Grohl do have much in common. Grohl actually talked directly with Obama, about Bob Dylan`s influence over broadening the American story.
It was part of a documentary and we actually just caught up with Mr. Grohl for our “MAVERICKS” series. Naturally, Obama and Dylan was a good place to start. I want to share with you here`s part of our conversation airing now for the first time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: You say music is unifying? You discuss that with a big Bob Dylan fan named Barack Obama. And since you brought up unity, really, just a really cool convo. I`m just going to play a little bit of what he said to you about Dylan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He was a huge musical influence to me. You know, he was somebody who reminded me of how powerful the American story can be told through music. It`s about people rejecting what is already there to try to create something entirely new.
Kids are always going to come up with something that you haven`t heard before. What`s also nice though, is how there is a connection. All these different musical rivers that run together to make American music. There`s nothing more unifying in this country than our music.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE GROHL, FOO FIGHTERS` SINGER: That was pretty cool. You know what I remember, I don`t know if it was that trip to the White House. I had been there a couple of times for different events, Kennedy Center things, and stuff like that.
I was wandering around downstairs, and I went into the little library that`s downstairs, I was looking around at the books and kind of flicking through and I found a book that was a complete anthology of Bob Dylan lyrics. In the little library in the White House and in that moment, I thought, OK, there`s hope.
MELBER: I mean, it`s far out and time seems to play some role there because some of the voices whether they`re civil rights leaders or musicians and artists that are treated as really quote-unquote out there in their time. Can become part of the canon. Can become the sort of iconic spiritual and moral leaders.
[18:45:00]
Your work clearly challenges, as you said, everyone`s singing along to think politically. I just want to read a couple of lyrics because we sometimes do that around here and have you, free associate. Hooked me up a new revolution, because this one is a lie, we sat around laughing, and watch the last one die.
GROHL: Well, I believe in progress and I believe in change, you know. Since I was young, listening to the albums I listened to whether they were Classic Rock Records or Punk Rock Records, there seemed to be this thread through all of them, that — that we have to sort of, we have to make progress and change and evolve, as the world does.
So, when I write those lyrics, you know, I`m usually most inspired at a crossroads. And, you know, the weight of that moment, trying to decide how to move forward, you know. A song like Times Like These, I mean, I wrote that song Times Like These, kind of was like 20 years ago, and that was at a personal crossroads. Where you — it`s time to learn to live again, you know, and time to give and give again.
And recently, in this past year, that song has taken on a whole new meaning. It applies to things today. And — and I think more than anything when I`m saying about something personal, that`s inspired by the world around me, it becomes universal, so that maybe everyone can feel not necessarily what I`m feeling but feel the same.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: It`s wild. Other personal can feel universal in art. And many people first learned about Grohl when he navigated his personal experience with rockstar fame and then tragedy as Nirvana`s drummer. Then we talk about that and the 90s-era pushback that he dealt with, about whether that rebellious band somehow sold out. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GROHL: I mean, everybody crucifies bands when they signed a major off of the — off of an independent because they immediately think like, oh, big sell-out, big cars, big fast. You know, just you know —
KRIST NOVOSELIC, NIRVANA BASSIST: Maybe we wanted to keep our lights on every month. Then somebody asked us, are we anti — anti-big money band. Anti-big bucks` band.
GROHL: What kind of question is that?
NOVOSELIC: What if Donald Trump wrote good songs, you wouldn`t listen to him? You know, I think I`ve listened to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: What do you think?
GROHL: Well, first of all, I — I don`t know if I hit puberty yet. Listen to my voice. What was that? What the heck was that all about? No, you know, it was — I think that, of course, we did have this level of ambition. But man, the bar was really low. Like, I honestly — at that point, Kurt and I were living in this tiny apartment, we were living off of three corndogs a day because there were 99 cents at the gas station.
Yes, I mean, I think all we wanted was somewhere warm to sleep that, you know, we wouldn`t be evicted from at that point. But — I mean, I always remember this one time when we were going around to record companies who wanted to sign the band. And we were sitting in this high-rise office in New York City with this record executive. And he said, well, what do you guys want? And Kurt said we want to be the biggest band in the world.
And I thought he was joking. Like I didn`t — that wasn`t even — I mean, there was a — remember at the time where music was, it was like Wilson Phillips and Mariah Carey and Michael Bolton. Like there was just no way that that was going to happen. But you know, like I said, Kurt songs were so good.
That they were appreciated by millions and millions of people. And it drove us into kind of a difficult place. It painted us in this corner that was hard to get out of. But, you know, but still, to this day, those songs mean so much to so many people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: Certainly, true. And Grohl has reflected on what he learned from Cobain`s untimely death. We should note, we taped this interview before Foo Fighters drummer Taylor Hawkins died. Grohl and the band were in mourning then. But during this discussion, we also got into his creative relationship with Cobain and the role of drummers in rock and roll.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: People to this day, look at it and think about what Nirvana meant. And we know the rest of your story and I think it`s natural for fans or people appreciate these individuals, we don`t know them like you. But they wonder what could have been if a few things went different or this person lived on. I have one more thing when we went through the archives where he`s talking about the creative process with you. Let`s take a look.
[18:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KURT COBAIN, NIRVANA`S LEAD VOCALIST: Dave came up with the drumbeat. And we just filmed the song off of the drum. And the riff — yes. He came up the drum beat and then he showed me the riff, you know. And it was really simple and we thought, well, this is good work. And it turned out great. And now I`m excited about it. Because now we can write together even more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Your thoughts and creatively, you were already doing what people know you to do, which is to like, do everything.
GROHL: It always takes me back to that famous drummer job. What was the last thing the drummer said before he got kicked out of the band? Hey, guys, I have a song I think we should play.
MELBER: I don`t know that one but that makes a lot of sense as a band job.
GROHL: I mean, listen, in that band, I loved being the drummer. I loved being the — in the engine room, the roaring noise behind these two brilliant people. And I was perfectly comfortable with that. I had a studio in my basement and I would go down into my basement, record songs. Really just for me like an experiment, some sort of creative outlet where I play guitar and bass and drums and sang and never fully formed songs.
But — but in Nirvana, I was perfectly happy just being the drummer of Nirvana. It was a great, great band to be the drummer of. And there, I tried, I did show Kurt my songs sometimes. But I mean, it`s, you know, it`s — it`s not — it`s not easy to show one of the greatest songwriters of our generation, your silly demo you did in your basement, so I kind of kept it to myself, you know.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: That`s part of a Grohl told us and of course, there`s kind of an inspiration here. For those of us who love music, you think how do you do any of it? Mr. Grohl, of course, started out in that role of drummer but millions of people literally around the world, no him as the frontman for Foo Fighters with many fans who were not even born when Nirvana ended.
And so, you learn from him about that sort of daunting creativity, the inspiration but the way he has played more than one role, and then done that again, because nowadays, he makes documentaries, he writes books. So, he really was a perfect inspiration for what we`re trying to do. And we share this “MAVERICKS” series with you, which is share and learn from people who are creative and inspire.
Because anyone can take something from music, whether you want to listen to it, party with it, dance to it, or make it yourself. I do really think that apart from talent which Mr. Grohl has and say, I don`t. And music, we can still learn something from how people approach creativity. Let me share with you one more piece of this highlights from the interview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GROHL: It`s easy to get addicted to accomplishment, you try to challenge yourself. And once you achieve that, you get a good like 24 hours of satisfaction, and then it`s gone. If I write something, and I can`t remember it the next day, then it`s not worth hearing. OK, now millions of people are singing your songs, like, what do you do?
MELBER: How do you deal with the kind of success you refer to that came with Nirvana.
GROHL: We don`t need everybody else. And you know, we can survive in our — on our little underground scene because it`s our secret. When you play a song that everybody sings along to. That`s a — it`s a huge energy. It`s a great moment, that was a huge moment for me. It changed my life. You have to kind of remind yourself of the reasons why you started in the first place. You have to remind yourself of the kid on the bedroom floor with the Beatles records. I`m not sure that I can do any of these things. And that`s why I do them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MELBER: That`s why he does it. Everything I just shared with you is airing for the very first time as we put our time into preparing these interviews for you, but the entire interview is also available. It`s now out for the first time today. This is as I`ve told you part of our “MAVERICKS” series. Conversations with music`s — musicians, artists, cultural icons, and you can see this one here, as you see on your screen at MSNBC.com/MAVERICKS.
That`s MSNBC.com/MAVERICKS or the Q.R. code that`s on your screen. We`ll leave this up for a second. If you point your phone at it just like a menu when you`re dining out in COVID. It will immediately bring up the link. We want to make it easy for you so you can see the whole Dave Grohl interview.
Or one more thought, go on search Melber and Grohl on YouTube, where you`ll find this interview and our other “MAVERICKS” interviews including Phoebe Bridgers, Jon Bon Jovi, and Annie Lennox. Again, we love doing this series and sharing it with you and we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:58:52]
MELBER: We covered a lot of stories tonight, including some about law and justice in more than one domain. And one of the headlines I shared with you we will put back up. I mentioned this in our prison report an area where it feels like nothing ever changes. And yet, this Justice Department under Attorney General Garland just secured this rare conviction of a warden for assaulting an inmate at that notorious prison that we did our report on.
Now, everyone deserves their day in court. That includes people who are serving in a prison or someone accused of wrongdoing who might be working there. But it is very rare and is a sign of how sometimes facts and scrutiny matter. It relates to what you also see on your screen, which is if you`re in or near New York, you can join us this weekend at the United Justice Coalition Summit.
You can go to THE BEAT with Ari Twitter page or UnitedJusticeCoalition.com/UJC-Summit. And you can see on your screen just some of the people who`ll be there. Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries, Michael Eric Dyson, Yo Gotti, the Attorney General of New York, and many more.
There`s more than one panel including the one that I will be moderating on prison reform on the middle of the day`s events on Saturday around 12:30 p.m. that`s in Manhattan. And again, you can RSVP at THE BEAT with Ari link on your screen if you`re interested. I wanted to make sure to remind folks in case you heard about that and wanted to know where to go. Thanks for watching THE BEAT. That does it for us. “THE REIDOUT” with Joy Reid is up next.