Updated
Summary
Former Trump White House counsel Pat Cipollone agrees to testify under oath to the 1/6 committee behind closed doors. The Georgia prosecutor investigating possible election interference by Trump says more subpoenas of his associates are expected. The Highland Park shooting suspect confesses.
Transcript
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: That is tonight`s “LAST WORD”. THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
[23:00:19]
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, previewing the potentially critical testimony from the White House attorney who was inside the west wing on January 6, and who warned we`re going to get charged with every crime imaginable.
Then, as a Georgia DA subpoenas Trump insiders, a closer look at the possible legal jeopardy for the former president.
Plus, the current President goes on the road to talk up his successes as the GOP tries to shake off Trump fatigue and the race to 2024 starts taking shape as the 11th hour gets underway on this Wednesday night.
Good evening, once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle.
Lawmakers investigating January 6 have scored a major breakthrough. Former Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, a potentially pivotal witness with an insider`s view of the West Wing has agreed to testify under oath. That interview will take place behind closed doors this Friday, which is just two days from now.
According to NBC News, his testimony will be videotaped and transcribed.
Last week, the committee send Cipollone a subpoena demanding he appear. That subpoena came just one day after the former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson testimony to the January 6 committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE: Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of please make sure we don`t go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We`re going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. In the days leading up to the sixth, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral account.
(END VIDEO CLIP))
RUHLE: No surprise. Tonight, the committee says it is eager to hear Cipollone his version of how Trump and his allies worked to keep Joe Biden out of the White House, despite his legitimate win in 2020.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): We`ve learned quite a bit about things that Mr. Cipollone did from multiple other witnesses. But there are some things that we`d like to hear from him directly. And we hope that we will learn some things from him. He certainly was in the room when a variety of things happened relative to the efforts to overthrow the election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: We`re also learning more tonight about the investigation into Donald Trump`s possible election interference down in the state of Georgia. The prosecutor in that case has already issued subpoenas to several key allies. And today she told NBC News more are coming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we expect to possibly see additional subpoenas from people in former President Trump`s inner circle for Trump associates?
FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are we talking about family members? Are we talking about former White House officials?
WILLIS: I mean, we`ll just have to see where the investigation leads us. But I think that people thought that we came into this as some kind of game. This is not a game at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Might we see a subpoena of the former president himself?
WILLIS: Anything`s possible. So we`re not ruling out it is possible to. Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Meanwhile, we`re also following developments as authorities investigate the Fourth of July parade shooting in Highland Park, Illinois. The man charged with killing seven people now being held without bond. Today, authorities revealed he confessed after he was reminded of his rights to remain silent.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERIC RINEHART, LAKE COUNTY STATE`S ATTORNEY: His statement was voluntary. He went into details about what he had done. He admitted to what he had done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Officials also said the suspect traveled to Madison, Wisconsin after the shooting and considered carrying out another attack but decided against it. All of this comes amid questions about how the suspect was able to get several weapons despite having previous contacts with police.
With that, let`s get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel tonight. Phil Rucker, Pulitzer Prize winning deputy national editor for The Washington Post. Katie Benner, Justice Department reporter for the New York Times, and Yamiche Alcindor, NBC News correspondent and moderator of Washington Week on PBS.
Katie, let`s start with you. Pat Cipollone, this is one of the committee`s most sought after witnesses. What are they hoping he`s going to tell them that`s going to move this investigation forward? He is huge. This guy has been with Trump forever.
KATIE BENNER, THE NEW YORK TIMES JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REPORTER: So I think one of the first thing that we`re hoping he`ll do is that he`ll back up the testimony of other witnesses.
[23:05:03]
He has been in every room every key moment of almost every meeting that occurred between the election and the January 6 riots and attack on the Capitol. So he will be able to say whether or not other witnesses whether or not their stories are true, whether or not that they`ve told the truth as they see it, and whether it lines up with his perception. And he also more than any other witness, can you get us close to what Trump was thinking he can help us get inside of the president`s head.
It`s been interesting to see how the committee particularly Liz Cheney, has focused attention on Pat Cipollone. She, in one hearing, called him out by name and asked him to come in. And then after some of the most compelling testimony that we heard last week, she made this plea saying democracies are upheld when people know the difference between right and wrong. Tellingly, you know, during the Nixon administration, and during Watergate, it was Dean who came out and he testified he gave up claims of executive privilege because he felt that what President Nixon had done was wrong. And it`s clear that Liz Cheney is hopeful that we will see the same from Pat Cipollone.
RUHLE: Phil, you know how to get inside Trump`s head, you know the Trump White House, maybe better than anyone I know. Help us understand Cipollone`s role, how close he was to Trump, because we`ve all seen Trump`s playbook after anyone speaks against him. It`s — they were low level, they didn`t know much. They weren`t involved. Can`t say that about Pat.
PHIL RUCKER, THE WASHINGTON POST DEPUTY NATIONAL EDITOR: That`s exactly right. Stephanie, Pat Cipollone was one of the senior most officials in the White House in those final months of the presidency, certainly. And he was loyal to former President Trump. He is not considered a lackey the way Mark Meadows was. He`s not family like Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, but he was loyal. And he has been protective of the former president in the years since he left office.
For example, he has not written a memoir. He`s not done a tell all. He`s not done big national media interviews where he has bared his soul and shared all of his secrets. And I think that`s why he is such a highly prized witness for the January 6 committee, because there`s a lot that he saw, a lot that he heard, a lot that he said, that has not been known yet publicly.
And so he could certainly fill in a lot of the gaps about what was going on in the Oval Office, in the private dining room, where the President was throwing his dinner plates. And having those conversations, Pat was there and a lot of those moments and he can fill in a lot of that information for the committee.
RUHLE: Well, he could have filled in a lot of that information for the committee for months and months, but didn`t. Why is he coming forward now? Phil.
RUCKER: You know, he`s coming forward now because there`s been increased pressure on him to do so in the last few days since the Cassidy Hutchinson testimony. Cassidy Hutchinson remember, said that it was Pat Cipollone, who warned privately on January 6, that if the President were to make that movement to go up to the Capitol, there could be crimes.
And so he was invoked in a really dramatic way. And meanwhile, the committee`s members publicly have been increasing pressure on him to testify. And so he has agreed to come it could last for several hours on Friday. He of course, went forward earlier in that informal conversation with the committee but was really sticking to this claim of executive of presidential privilege, and did not reveal the kinds of details that the committee is hoping he will share on Friday.
RUHLE: Yamiche, us understand this, Cipollone is feeling the pressure but Mark Meadows not so much?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR, PBS WASHINGTON WEEK MODERATOR: It`s an incredible splitscreen you have here now with the former White House counsel coming forward and saying that he`s going to be sitting down for this transcribed testimony. And of course, Mark Meadows, the former White House Chief of Staff is continuing to say that he is someone who is covered by executive privilege and doesn`t need to come forward.
I think Pat Cipollone is very interesting, not only as Phil smartly said, and Katie was really sad about it sort of his role in the White House and Cassidy Hutchinson invoking his name. I also think I`m still interested in this idea of that that meeting at the White House where former President Trump was close to possibly doing away with the acting Attorney General and installing another acting Attorney General, a man by Jeffrey Clark, who was very much interested in trying to get states pressuring states to overturn the election. It was Pat Cipollone in that meeting, that would say that that`s not a good idea. He was also someone who was a sort of see — seen as team normal to talk about sort of the language that Bill Stepien the former Trump campaign manager, the vocabulary that he was using.
So Pat Cipollone, as much as he is someone who`s seen as loyal to former President Trump. He was also someone who had to be the lawyer, who had to be the check on all of these different moves and actions that former President Trump wanted to take. So there`s also that sort of transparency that he can bring into that moment.
[23:10:02]
And I`m also interested in those 187 minutes or odd minutes or so between when the capitol riots began and when former President Trump finally spoke out against it, what was going on. And during that time period, Pat Cipollone could be critical to that. And lawmakers have said that that is a key focus of their investigation.
RUHLE: You know, what happened during those 187 minutes, Yamiche? Nothing normal, which is why the tape name, Team normal is incorrect and irrelevant, no matter how much Stepien wants to be known as that.
Yamiche, after Cipollone speaks on Friday, we`re just a couple of days away from the next hearing, what are you hearing what we should expect?
ALCINDOR: So the committee has talked about the fact that they want to look into extremism in the Proud Boys. So that`s something that I`m definitely going to be looking for next week. I`m also still looking for whether or not there are going to be any witnesses that come forward and say the key thing that I haven`t heard yet, which is former President Trump knew that he lost and decided to lie anyways. I`m looking for someone who is close to President Trump, who was in some room, because right now, it`s very clear that former President Trump has said — was told over and over again, you lost the election by his campaign aides, by lawyers, by all sorts of people. But did he ever even in one moment, acknowledge that he had lost and then said, Well, here`s the plan.
Anyways, I`m very much interested, and whether or not the hearings that are coming up whether or not they get to that, but of course, the other thing is, as I said, is there a direct connection between him and the Proud Boys lawmakers have said that name of Proud Boys over and over again. I`m going to be very interested to see whether or not there was any sort of meeting or any sort of financial ties that they can sort of prove to say, here`s the direct connection that right now has been missing.
RUHLE: No, and I`m interested in hearing from Ginni Thomas, wife of Supreme Court Justice, Clarence Thomas, no word on when and if that could happen.
Katie, let`s talk Georgia, because the prosecutor investigating election interference there says more subpoenas are coming. What does that mean? Right. We were all — last night we heard all about it, Lindsey Graham. He`s subpoenaed, but the likelihood that we`re going to hear from him seems slim, he`s already fighting it. What do you know about that today?
BENNER: I think what we`re seeing down in Georgia is an extremely aggressive investigation of Donald Trump, the likes of which we haven`t seen before, you know, we saw the Mueller investigation was very aggressive looking at Russian election interference. Ultimately, Robert Mueller decided to punt on the question of whether or not Donald Trump had committed wrongdoing. And then we saw this investigation in New York with the Manhattan district attorney, and that has somewhat fallen apart.
And so Georgia is really fascinating it is to Fani Willis` statements that she made to NBC, she sort of recognized that people didn`t think that she was serious, and didn`t think that she was going to be as aggressive as others had been, and going after, you know, possible crimes related to the election.
But one of the things that — one of the things you`re seeing with this subpoenas that she has already issued, is that she`s incredibly serious. And she`s basically laying the groundwork for any prosecutor, including federal prosecutors to say, no one has to be off the table.
We do not have to treat this with kid gloves simply because we`re looking at people close to a former president, it is a somewhat controversial point of view, you know, according to people inside of different places in the Justice Department. Obviously, they think that possibly prosecuting the former president is extremely controversial and should be treated with a lot of caution. But she really does believe that every stone must be overturned. So I think that`s one of the big takeaways.
And then another takeaway is to that this is an investigation that the Justice Department is looking at extremely closely to see whether or not she actually does charge anybody close to the Trump orbit. And what that means if she does or doesn`t, it has implications much like the Manhattan DA`s investigation did.
RUHLE: Of course, it`s controversial to look into a President of the United States. But if there`s wrongdoing, they got to do what they got to do.
Yamiche, let`s actually talk about the current President Joe Biden, I know you are with him in Ohio today. POLITICO reporting that some Democrats are not happy with his response to the Highland Park shooting, saying it wasn`t enough. What`s the White House saying about that?
ALCINDOR: Well, the White House is saying that President Biden, like every mass shooting that he`s had speak about that he is someone who has for gun reform that he had someone who is passionate about this issue. He`s someone who understands losing a loved one. But it is interesting to see Democrats push back on that. We`ve heard from the Vice President, who was a bit more forceful, saying enough is enough in her statement. So there are some saying that in this case, Harris, who`s had her own challenges that she is sort of stepping up and being seen as someone who`s more prominent on this issue in this moment.
And it was also very interesting, of course, to cover President Biden in Cleveland today, because he`s juggling so many challenges, even at this red, at this meeting, in this event where he was supposed to be talking about pension plans and the American Rescue Act. The first thing he had to talk about was Jaylen Walker, who is this African American man who was shot 60 times by police 40 miles south of Cleveland and Akron, Ohio. He started off by saying the Justice Department is going to be looking into that case, that they`re monitoring if there were any violations of federal law that they would get into that.
[23:15:03]
And then he could pivot to the economy and all of the different things that he wanted to say to union workers and middle class workers. But it just tells you all the different things that this White House is juggling, whether it`s guns, whether it`s police violence, and of course, whether it`s inflation, which poll after poll has shown is where Americans minds are when it comes to a top priority, because so many people are worried about pocketbook issues, high prices, gas prices, and all the other things that people are dealing with.
RUHLE: Well, we should note gas prices, they are going down. Katie, we actually heard from Merrick Garland today, I want to share a bit of what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: You need to reflect on the horrific events in Highland Park, Illinois. This location is just 20 minutes from the house I grew up in. And I know it extremely well. It`s just another horrific reminder of the violence and particularly the gun violence that we face, and that we must do everything in our power to. And we don`t need any more reminders of this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: All right, we don`t need any more reminders. They must do everything in their power. What is in the Department of Justice is power in terms of fighting gun violence, anything that we`re not currently getting?
BENNER: So far, the Justice Department has said that department officials are in the area. And they are basically working with community groups and with police to try to make sure that there is not more violence, to make sure that there`s, you know, what they consider to be healing and dialogue and to sort of get the community and the police in line on this investigation. They`re, you know, trying to better understand what happened.
But for the Department of Justice, what they can do is they can enforce laws on the books. And so a lot of people have noted that these guns were obtained legally. And it raises a bigger question around gun reform and gun legislation for the department what they can do is enforce. But what they cannot do is make new law or reach beyond existing law.
RUHLE: Neither can the White House but issues like gun violence and abortion rights are becoming more and more important to the American people and a challenge for the Biden White House. Phil, do they have any plan to address either one of these big challenges?
RUCKER: Well, Stephanie, they`re continuing to address these challenges, rhetorically, from day to day, but there`s a lot of kind of pent up frustration in the Democratic Party that this is a president who is failing to meet the moment. It`s a moment of national crisis in the minds of many progressive Democrats. And you know, they look to the White House for leadership, for fight for rhetoric, but also for sort of policy proposals, and they`re not seeing the kind of response to a crisis that they feel this president should be putting up.
RUHLE: All of this happening, and we haven`t even mentioned there is a war going on in Ukraine. I don`t think I`ve said it in days. That is how many challenges we are facing right now. It is a lot. Phil Rucker, Katie Benner, Yamiche Alcindor, thank you so much for starting us off this evening.
Coming up next, Chuck Rosenberg is here on the multiple investigations involving the former guy. We`re going to break down what is next in Georgia after Senator Lindsey Graham, I mentioned in a moment ago, promised is going to fight his subpoena.
And later, is the White House doing enough not just to fight all these challenges, but to sell President Biden`s wins. Al Franken and Michael Steele are here to discuss some of his bipartisan accomplishments and what they could mean for the midterms. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on this Wednesday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:23:17]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WOOD, FMR. SENIOR INVESTIGATOR FOR JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE: John Dean was actually involved in some of the wrongdoing here. I haven`t seen any evidence that Pat Cipollone was involved in any of the wrongdoing. In fact, he tried to stop it.
But he is similar to John Dean in the sense that not only does he have the same position of White House counsel that he was right there in the room when so many of these conversations took place so he could turn out to be a really central witness to this whole investigation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: A preview from the former senior investigator of the January 6 Committee of what is still to come. The panel still gathering evidence. Of course, you heard the committee`s big get we`ve been talking to it all our White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. Again, he has reached a deal to be interviewed behind closed doors on Friday that will be transcribed and videotaped.
So let`s discuss and bring in Chuck Rosenberg, former U.S. attorney and former senior FBI official, Chuck, Pat Cipollone is a big get, however, given his role in the White House, can he invoke executive privilege and not really answer anything?
CHUCK ROSENBERG, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, yes and no. Let me explain, Stephanie,. There is such a thing as executive privilege. I mean, it`s a real thing. It`s a real privilege. And his White House Counsel, he may have had some conversations with the former president that are in fact, privileged. But can he answer anything? Of course, there are things he can answer.
And it both sides approach this in good faith. Right, the House Committee and Mr. Cipollone and his lawyers, they can carve out a path and a whole bunch of things he can answer. For instance, conversations that are not privileged. Conversations with third parties in the room, things that he saw and overheard other people he talked to.
[23:25:00]
So, yes, there`s an executive privilege, yes, it might come into play with respect to certain things the committee wants to know. But there`s a bunch of things that Cipollone can testify to. And it was really important for both sides to approach this in a constructive way and in good faith.
RUHLE: Is the committee building a criminal case against Trump with these hearings? And you think that they are sending more information to the Justice Department and more than what we`re seeing?
ROSENBERG: So they`re not technically building a criminal case. But effectively, Stephanie, are they doing that? Maybe. I mean, what we`ve seen a tiny fraction of what they have, right? I mean, assuming they have more than 1000 witnesses and tens of thousands of documents, we`ve seen a tiny fraction of that. I mean, it`d be like, reading the first three pages of war and peace and writing a book report, not that I`ve ever done something like that in college.
But it`s really, really hard for us to know what they have, what they`re sharing, what the Justice Department has on its own, how they`re using it. I think we have to keep in mind two things. One is that the committee is doing a good job presenting a story, a tale, right, the events of what happened before, during and after January 6, I commend them for that.
And two, whatever the Justice Department is doing, and we only occasionally get a glimpse of it, it`s a very different mission, because they would ultimately have to prove their case in federal court, to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt.
So, you know, committees doing a fine job. It`s been good television. It`s an interesting hearing. But we`ve seen only a tiny fraction of what they have acquired.
RUHLE: Let`s talk about the Georgia prosecutor investigating Trump for possible 2020 election fraud and, excuse me, election interference. Yesterday, Lindsey Graham was issued a subpoena and he has now promised to fight it. Watch when he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIS: Nobody wants to come to the prosecutor`s party. That`s just kind of part of the work that we do. We`ll take it before the judge and the judge will make a ruling if we have a legal right to bring them before the court. My job is not to bring you here because you want to come My job is to make sure that the grand jurors get all of the evidence they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Is Lindsey Graham, just running the clock here, or can he win this case and fight the subpoena?
ROSENBERG: Yes, great question. So we just talked about Pat Cipollone. And back that they seem to be acting in good faith on both sides to carve out a path. That doesn`t seem to be the case with Lindsey Graham right now. So, the Constitution Article 1, Section 6, has the Speech and Debate Clause privilege. So members, and either the House or Senate really can`t be called to answer questions about things they do in the legislative process.
But again, there`s a bunch of things that might be Speech and Debate Clause privilege. And there`s a bunch of things that might not be. And so if Lindsey Graham wants you to act in good faith, and meet with the prosecutors in Georgia, he could carve out a path is he trying to run out the clock? It sounds like it because if the Georgia prosecutors have to litigate the Speech and Debate Clause, it can get messy, and it could take a very long time.
RUHLE: You might not want to go to the prosecutor`s party, but I`m pretty sure she`ll be insistent. So what do you think the logical next steps are in this Georgia investigation?
ROSENBERG: Well, they seem to be taking the logical next steps right now. They`re trying to talk to people who are close to the president, just like the House Committee wants to talk to Pat Cipollone because he was close to the President proximate to him. The folks in Georgia want to talk to the people who were giving President Trump legal advice, right, Rudy Giuliani and Lindsey Graham, and John Eastman and Clayton Mitchell and Sidney Powell and folks like that.
And that`s important, Stephanie, because as you and I have discussed, getting into the president`s head, which is admittedly a pretty, you know, uncomfortable and scary place to be, is not easy. And so the way you do that, is by talking to the people who talked to him, what did he know, what did he understand, what did he intend, and the more people like that, that you can talk to, assuming they tell the truth, which might be a big assumption with some of these characters, the better you can divine the President`s intent, and that`s what prosecutors would need if they were to bring a criminal case,. They would also have to prove in addition to all the elements of whatever offense they charge, they would also have to prove them.
RUHLE: Assuming they tell the truth, reminder, they`re under oath. Chuck Rosenberg, you always make us smarter every time you are here. Thank you for staying up late with us.
Coming up next, a look at the list of wins for President Biden so far. We`ll be talking to our friends Al Franken and Michael Steele if the White House is doing a good job selling those accomplishments when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:34:30]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I said I`m running for three reasons one, to restore the soul of America the decency and honor of this country. And two, rebuild the backbone of the country. The third reason I ran was to unify the country, to unify it. That`s been the harder part of it right now. No, I`m serious. Because we become so divided.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Joe Biden is witnessing some of that division within his own party with just over four months ago until the midterms some Democrats are demanding more from him.
[23:35:08]
They want to see him get angry or over gun violence and disappearing abortion rights. But as AB Stoddard put it for The Bulwark, quote, voters put Democrats in power with a very narrow majority and in return they got an ambitious COVID rescue plan, a bipartisan infrastructure law and bipartisan gun reform. If Democrats want more of the legislative priorities addressed, then they should be eager to vote.
So let`s discuss. With us tonight, former Minnesota Democratic Senator Al Franken, who hosts a podcast bearing his name, and Michael Steele, former chairman of the Republican National Committee and former Lieutenant Governor of Maryland.
Al, what do you think of AB`s argument? Biden`s got a lot done that should motivate democratic viewers not get them angry?
FMR. SEN. AL FRANKEN (D) MINNESOTA: I agree with her. Democrats should stop complaining and get to work. That`s how you win elections. You know, stop working against ourselves, and instead, get out the vote. I won my first election by 312 votes. I know that every vote matters. And your listeners or viewers should be, you know, they can they can volunteer. They can call people call Democrats who maybe didn`t vote in the last midterm and get them out, get your get off your butt.
Democrats stop complaining and win this. This is an incredibly important midterm. If we pick up two Senate seats, then there`s a chance that we can get legislation done and do something about the filibuster and accomplish what Democrats want to want to achieve. And those that — the accomplishments that AB talked about were all very big accomplishments.
RUHLE: Then why doesn`t the President get more credit for them, Michael? Think about former President Trump. He was a real estate guy to remember how many infrastructure weeks he had, I can`t even count that high. Biden got it done. Biden got us through COVID. Think about where we were two years ago versus where we are today. Does this White House need to do a better job selling this making this point?
MICHAEL STEELE, FMR. RNC CHAIRMAN: So to your first question, why haven`t they communicate this? Because their messaging sucks. They`re just God awful at messaging.
RUHLE: Why?
STEELE: You know, why? At least, these are professionals. I mean, Al knows what it takes to put together an uphill campaign against the odds, as he just told you, he won by 312 votes. How do you think he got those extra 312 votes? He messaged the right way to the people of his date, who were probably largely suspicious because of his background, because he was a comedian, because he was a Democrat. But he found a way to touch that sweet spot for those voters.
This is not complicated. In fact, this is a hell of a lot easier for Democrats now, because they –you just said it. They put in place a COVID strategy that was effective. They put an infrastructure bill after Republicans talked about infrastructure week for God knows how many years. And then they also kind of laid the foundations to try to readjust the economy for the country. Yes, the war kind of threw a wrench in there. But they`ve still have an opportunity to go out to the voters to tell them exactly what they`ve done.
But beyond that, they also have to be aware of what the voters don`t want. And what they don`t want is big massive explosion of government spending right now on the heels of what has amounted to roughly 10 to $12 trillion of money being infused into this economy since 2017.
So the reality for a lot of those voters with respect to Democrats is thank you forgetting us off stupid. All right. So we`re past the Trump era. Now, lay down the chart for the next two years. OK. See if we can — see if we`re interested in some of that. There`s some things we`re interested in. But I don`t want to see this expansive build-up of government spending right now, because I`m concerned about these other priorities closer to me gas prices, et cetera.
RUHLE: Al, if Michael`s right and as he eloquently put it, their messaging sucks. How do you change that the event that the President did today going out there selling his successes? Is that the kind of thing that breaks through?
FRANKEN: Of course, you have talked about your confidence but also elections are contrasts who you`re running against what have Republicans stood for in the last five years, and their leader, Donald Trump.
[23:40:12]
And we`re seeing if people are watching the January 6 hearings, they`re paying attention. We`ve seen some movement in the polls because of that. Right now the generic polling is even. We`ve got three to four months, until the midterms. And that`s the time to make that contrasts. And, you know, if we get the two more senators, and even with maybe one, we can get bills. Most Americans think that people higher income people should pay more taxes. Republicans believe that right, Michael? Right.
STEELE: Yes, well, we talked about that.
FRANKEN: Well, maybe not established Republicans like you. But I`ll bet you Trump supporters want to see that.
STEELE: I`m sure they crazy enough to follow that line. But put a lot of —
FRANKEN: OK, we will talk about that in different time maybe.
STEELE: We can, but I`m just saying we put a lot of money into the economy already. I think the country is less worried about tax policy right now to be honest. I think they`re more concerned about gas prices and inflation, and raising tax does not help doesn`t help either of those. So well —
FRANKEN: Let me say one thing. I`m sorry, Michael.
STEELE: Go ahead.
FRANKEN: And I want to say one thing about inflation, what`s the inflation rate in Hungary? And I know you don`t know.
RUHLE: OK, hold on now. Hold on. Wait. Wait. Listen, Al, you`re absolutely right. And right here on this show, many, many nights, we go through inflation around the globe, in Hungary, in Brazil, what it is, but the problem is, when your neighbor goes to the grocery store, they`re not thinking about what eggs cost in Hungary, just like they`re not thinking about it at the gas pump. So you have the facts on your side, but people vote based on how they feel you got to address that.
FRANKEN: I totally understand that. Right. I do understand that.
STEELE: (INAUDIBLE) only party, you`d think you`d get that. I don`t understand.
FRANKEN: I get the price you pay at the pump is very, very, very important. What you need to fill up your tank is an extremely important economic thing. But you talked about Ukraine, the President`s leadership on that was tremendous, putting that coalition together. And we have to sell the importance of that. And I realize that these are maybe complex issues, the relationship of inflation and the price of gas to Ukraine, but what else would we do? What else could we done —
STEELE: Let me give you the complexities real quick cow going into the fall. Republican messaging are two points. One, the Democrats have ruined the economy. That`s why you`re paying high prices at the gas tank. And that`s why inflation —
RUHLE: Well that point is not true.
STEELE: It doesn`t matter. And number two, number two, Republicans is that Democrats want to groom our kids. That`s that — that touches on everything.
RUHLE: Also not true.
STEELE: We know that.
FRANKEN: Well that`s just incredibly offensive.
STEELE: (INAUDIBLE) for message.
FRANKEN: Yes. And I know you don`t believe it`s like. All I know you don`t believe that.
STEELE: No, I don`t believe that —
RUHLE: All right, gentlemen. Hold on. I`m not going to let either of you go anywhere. But we do have to take a quick break. We have more to cover on the other side. Stick around. We`re talking Ron DeSantis.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:48:27]
RUHLE: From political friends to possible foes, the rising influence of Florida Governor Ron DeSantis within the GOP is a potential challenge Donald Trump and a potential complication for Democrats. So let`s get back with Al Franken and Michael Steele. All, Max Booth, columnist for the Washington Post says DeSantis is an even greater threat to democracy than Trump. What do you think?
FRANKEN: Well, some of the things he`s done in Florida make me feel that way. He`s a smart guy. But I shave to say that it`s still 2022 and I indulging, that`s what the segment is about is kind of the parlor game of who`s going to be the nominee in the party who was the front runner in 2014 for the Republican Party.
I just think this is about — we should be thinking — Democrats should be thinking about the midterm. We should be talking about things like abortion. I mean, talk about an issue that Democrats that Americans favor, and they favor the position that most Democrats. I think that`s what Americans should be pointing about. That`s what should be working, thinking about now and working towards.
RUHLE: All right, then let`s get out of the parlor games and get into the present, something that is hugely America important or should be hugely important to all Americans is voting rights.
[23:50:03]
Michael, should voting rights, protecting voting rights be a bigger priority for the Biden administration? Because, unfortunately, it`s not a top kitchen table issue.
STEELE: It should be a big priority for everybody starting with the Biden administration. I contended that the State of the Union quite honestly should have been about 90 percent about democracy, tying the emerging war in Ukraine, to our own freedoms here at home. Why? Why these battles matter?
The impact that they have, I mean, look, going back to our last segment, I`m sure Al and I will both agree, we can debate all day long about the price of a loaf of bread. And we can debate all day long about inflation. But if we can`t vote, if we can`t freely assemble, if we cannot exercise the rights that are duly given to us under the Constitution, none of that ish matters. None of it. It doesn`t matter what bread cost when you can`t get to the polls, when grandma has to take seven buses to go vote, because they redistrict her district, or they moved all the polling places around out of her neighborhood because it`s largely black and brown.
So voting, Stephanie, is fundamental. And it`s not just about oh, we`re in an election cycle. It`s 24/7 all year, you got to stand on that wall to protect it.
FRANKEN: Can`t agree more.
RUHLE: Then why isn`t that a bigger — why isn`t that a bigger issue for voters then, Al? They`re not thinking about it, or they won`t until these rights aren`t protected, and they`re gone?
FRANKEN: Well, Michael`s completely right. This is a huge threat. And you`ll saw that the Supreme Court is taking this North Carolina case, which is a complete threat to our democracy. It`s basically this theory that the state legislature is empowered by the Constitution to control all elections, without state judges, weighing in the Secretary of State. This is extremely dangerous. This is an extremely dangerous court.
And we saw that and this that needs to be an issue in this campaign, not just abortion. But guns need to be an issue in this campaign. There`s a whole host of stuff that this Supreme Court is dealing with to threaten our democracy forever and to fix the 2024 election, essentially, by allowing state legislatures in Pennsylvania and Michigan and Wisconsin to overturn the results as Trump wanted to do, as Eastman wanted to do. This is an existential threat to our democracy. And I`m glad Michael is saying that that is, should be the number one issue.
RUHLE: So we`re going to keep talking about it right here. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us tonight. Always great to see you both Al Franken and Michael Steele.
FRANKEN: Thank you, Stephanie. Thank you, Michael.
RUHLE: All right, coming up next. It is another underreported aspect of the American economy. Something that`s overshadowed by rising prices, and recession fears. We`re going to bring you a little bit of good news before we sign off tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:58:03]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: You all remember what the economy was like when I was elected a country in a pandemic, with no real plans how to get out of it. Millions of people out of their jobs. Families and cars remember backed up for literally miles wait for a box of food to be put in their trunk. Just a box of food to be put in their trunk reason to have up to eat. Previous administration lost more jobs in his watch than any administration since Herbert Hoover.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, jobs, jobs, jobs. We already set it. High prices at the grocery store and the gas pump have Americans upset about the direction of the economy. But the President today was talking up what has been a very bright spot in recent months, the job market.
Today, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that even after creating almost 400,000 new jobs in May, employers they wanted to hire even more people. The government says there were close to 11.3 million job openings that month, almost two jobs for every unemployed person. With so many open positions, over 4 million Americans quit their jobs in May. So the great resignation or realignment or reassessment, whatever you want to call it, it is so going on. People feel confident enough about their financial position or their potential new job that they can walk away from what they`re currently doing.
And employers they know it. So they are doing whatever they can to hold on to their workers. Layoffs, for example, they are now at record — almost record lows. Let`s say you own a restaurant and you finally have all the staff you need for the summer. You`re probably going to do everything you can to keep those employees happy and working.
So what about those warnings that a recession is on the way with inflation as high as it is with the Federal Reserve raising interest rates, it is definitely possibility but as one economist told us what we`re experiencing in the job market this is not what a recession looks like
[00:00:07]
We`re getting — get an even better look at how employment is doing this Friday morning, when the Labor Department releases the much anticipated June jobs report. But until then, I want to leave you with a reminder that there`s actually good economic news out there, and we wanted to be sure you knew it.
And on that very good note, I want to wish you a very good night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I will see you at the end of tomorrow.