Updated
Summary
Ukraine accuses Russia of civilian massacre in Bucha. Biden to seek additional sanctions against Russia. Biden says Putin should face war crimes trial. NYT: Garland faces growing pressure as 1/6 probe widens. Jackson nomination advances after Senate panel deadlock. American veterans train Ukrainian civilians in Lviv.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Sean Penn will join us right here tomorrow night on “THE LAST WORD” at 10 p.m. He will be my first in studio guest in two years and two months. That is tonight`s “LAST WORD.” THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, sheer devastation and horror in Ukraine, the new images from Bucha, civilians appearing to be executed. Zelenskyy calling it genocide with more calls for war crime investigations.
And here at home Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, one step closer to history tonight. Plus, new pressure on Attorney General Merrick Garland while the investigation into January 6 widens as the 11th Hour gets underway on this Monday night.
Good evening, once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. Russia`s invasion of Ukraine is about to enter day 41, while global outrage is growing over unimaginable atrocities against civilians that have been reported in a town just outside Kyiv, a warning, the images are graphic and disturbing. But there is no way for us to give you the real idea of what happened without showing you the real pictures.
I want you to see what is left of the town of Bucha. Ukraine has now accused Russia of carrying out a massacre against scores of residents there. Russia denying that allegation. Today Ukrainian President Zelenskyy visited Bucha and met with those who survived Russia`s deadly occupation. He said more than 300 people were tortured and killed and the list of victims is likely going to grow. He plans to address the U.N. Security Council on this issue tomorrow. Our own Richard Engel has more from Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Russian troops pulled out of the Kyiv suburb of Bucha, they exposed the horrors of their failed occupation. Bodies lined the streets, some with their hands bound, executed at close range, others bore the scars of torture. The President`s office said women were raped. The mayor of Bucha said they discovered two mass graves, other bodies were lined up in cellars.
Today Ukraine`s President Zelenskyy visited Bucha and said the Russian army treated Ukrainian civilians worse than animals.
This is a war crime, he said, and it will be recognized by the world as genocide. President Biden is calling for a war crime trial to hold Russian President Putin accountable.
JOE BIDEN, (D) U.S. PRESIDENT: This guy is brutal. And what`s happening in Bucha is outrageous. And everyone`s seen it.
ENGEL: Russia`s Foreign Minister today claimed Ukrainians stage the aftermath in Bucha, with actors pretending to be dead, that it is preposterous given all the evidence may be beside the point. Independent polls in Russia show Putin`s approval rating appears to be going up amid a wave of nationalism.
Russia appears to be gearing up for a new offensive in the East and in the south along the Black Sea with this new strike on an oil depot in Odessa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RUHLE: Survivors in Bucha working to remove all traces of the Russian occupation while also trying to come to terms with the violence they witnessed. NBC`S Molly Hunter has that part of the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MOLLY HUNTER, NBC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Today in Bucha, they`re going house to house working quickly, desperately trying to remove the landmines the Russians left behind. Russian soldiers occupied Lootmila`s (ph) home for more than a month.
They broke the locks on the doors. She was forced downstairs to the basement. They threatened to throw grenades at us, she says. They got cursed us, saying our husbands were Nazis. Throughout Bucha today the carnage laid there in the sun.
Olinka`s (ph) brother had been missing for more than a week. She says we found him five days ago, lying on the street, three bullets to the leg, one to the heart, one to the lungs. And here in the western city of Lviv, we meet 32 year old Andre Labayda (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t expect that they are so heartless.
HUNTER: With his brother in law Nickoli (ph) and their families they escaped Bucha on March 9.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw, like, horrific things, like, um, murdered people on the street outside, like, the civilians. And they just was shot. They were just killed.
HUNTER: Where were the gunshot?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like the chest, something like this.
HUNTER: And these are people in civilian clothes, for sure?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For sure, civilians.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RUHLE: A senior U.S. defense official says two thirds of Russian forces around Kyiv have now been moved to different areas and they are restocking with supplies.
Today, the White House said there would be more sanctions to punish Moscow for what happened in Bucha and National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan laid out what`s next.
[23:05:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The next stage of this conflict may very well be protracted. We should be under no illusions that Russia will adjust its tactics, which have included and will likely continue to include wanton and brazen attacks on civilian targets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Meanwhile, the U.S. authorities have seized a 255 foot luxury yacht in Spain, owned by a sanctioned billionaire ally of Vladimir Putin. This was the Justice Department`s first seizure as part of its new task force to enforce sanctions against oligarchs. Let`s bring in NBC`s Ali Arouzi, he joins us live from the Lviv. Ali, what are you hearing about these reports in Bucha? It`s devastating for Americans to look at these images. I can`t imagine what this is like for Ukrainians.
ALI AROUZI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Stephanie. Well, obviously the Ukrainian politicians have condemned this as not only a war crime, but a genocide. But for the regular Ukrainians. This has been heart wrenching. You know, everybody has seen these images. They`re all over the place. And it`s very hard for them to digest. You know, they know how bad this war was. They`ve seen the Russians, bomb churches, children`s hospitals, schools. But this was just so shocking to them. But they`re not entirely surprised, because they said, this is what the Russians do when they wage war on somebody`s country. And it`s been very upsetting across the board.
And, you know, Zelenskyy talked about genocide, but he also said, you know, more conclusions need to be drawn about what`s happened, not just about Russia, but how the political behavior allowed this evil to come to Ukraine were his words. And it`s easy to understand where he`s coming from, you know, given what happened in Rwanda, what happened in Kosovo, people said, we must never forget, this must never happen again. Well, it did happen again. And it happened on a very violent, devastating scale here. And what`s even more upsetting than that is the foreign minister spoke today. And he said, what you saw in Bucha was just the tip of the iceberg. What`s happening in Mariupol is going to be much worse than what we`ve seen in Bucha.
There`s been no access to Mariupol, the Red Cross can get in there. They can`t get any aid in there. People can`t get out. So we don`t know exactly what`s going on in there. But every account, we`ve heard, every person I`ve spoken to that`s managed to escape Mariupol is painting a horrifying picture of what`s going on in there. And when that place does eventually open up, I think we`re going to see much, much more atrocious scenes than the ones we`ve seen in Bucha. And that scenes shivers down the backs of the people that we you speak to hearing the relative safety of Lviv.
So you know, this is a country that`s been devastated by this war. And it`s showing no signs of stopping. Vladimir Putin doesn`t want to talk directly to Zelenskyy. We heard over the weekend, that there were going to be peace talks between the two of them. The Ukrainians said that there was enough in a draft treaty for the two of them to meet and then, you know, and I told a lot of Ukrainians are you excited about that? They go, well, we`ll believe it when we see it. And sure enough, two days later, the Russian said, well, you know what, actually, there isn`t enough in a draft treaty for the two of them to meet even while, you know, these atrocities in butcher are unfolding, and Mariupol continues to be bombed, the most bombed, the most destroyed city in Ukraine.
RUHLE: Ali Arouzi, thank you. And Ali raises the big question, we didn`t know what happened in Bucha, until the Russians had already left. Think about places like Mariupol where Russia has been occupying that region four weeks.
I want to bring in our experts this evening, Shannon Pettypiece, veteran journalist and our Senior White House Reporter for NBC News. William Taylor, former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, also the United States Institute of Peace, Vice President for Russia and Europe, and Kenneth Roth, Executive Director for Human Rights Watch, one of the world`s leading international human rights organizations operating in 90 countries. He has conducted a number of human rights investigations and missions around the world.
Ambassador Taylor, start us off tonight. How does — what we`re seeing from Bucha change this conflict?
WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Stephanie, it enrages the world, but in particular it enrages Ukraine. Ukraine is determined to win this war. They don`t talk about when the war is over. They talk about when victory comes. They are going to win this war and then accountability will come. So they are further determined. The international community is further determined to support Ukraine to provide the weapons, to increase the sanctions. This is having a real effect. This is not the effect that President Putin was after.
RUHLE: Ambassador Taylor, I want to share with General Barry McCaffrey said earlier today. Watch this.
[23:10:03]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. BARRY MCCAFFREY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Putin scared. He`s desperate. He`s got very few good options but he`s not backing off. We need to accelerate and upgrade support of Ukrainian military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: What`s holding us back from doing that?
TAYLOR: So nothing`s holding us back, Stephanie. There`s no reason that we can do exactly what General McCaffrey said. That is increased dramatically, without limits, the only limit is there`s no upper limit other than obvious weapons of mass destruction, but the heavy weapons, the high weapons, the weapons that can take out aircraft, the armored vehicles, the tanks, all of this, that should be going, and that should be going from NATO, going from the United States. There`s nothing stopping that.
RUHLE: And why do you think it isn`t?
TAYLOR: It is moving, Stephanie. That is moving. It is moving, not as fast as we want. It had — it needs to accelerate. And, you know, we`re not saying everything that we — that we know, we`re not saying everything that we do. We don`t say every place that it goes across the border, but it`s moving and it needs to move faster.
RUHLE: Ken, I know your teams have been gathering evidence about what happened in Bucha, what are you learning?
KENNETH ROTH, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: What Human Rights Watch investigators have been on the ground speaking to eyewitnesses and survivors, and we`ve seen a pattern. In Bucha, for example, one woman described to us how the Russian soldiers rounded up about 40 people and put them in the town square interrogated, took their phones, and then took five young men lifted their shirts over their heads and just pointed a gun at the head of one of them in chain. Yes.
We had similar testimony from the town of Syria (inaudible), which is an east of Kyiv, Bucha is west of Kyiv, where soldiers rounded up and Russian soldiers rounded up six men met them off and just executed. So you know, this is sadly, a pattern that we`re seeing. What`s critical now is that trained investigators get in and collect the evidence that is going to be needed for trial, because simply seeing a body on the ground doesn`t prove a war crime in and of itself, the person could have been shot in crossfire.
But, you know, when you see hands bound, get assigned to summary executions, signs of torture, those are clear work. And it`s going to be very important that prosecutions proceed not simply for the soldiers who carried out these crimes, but moving up the chain of command and going after the people who might have either given these orders, or at least you`re aware of these kinds of atrocities and failed to take steps to stop.
RUHLE: But, Ken, what does that trial look like? When does it happen? When we hear that evidence has been gathered? There`s war crimes, one would think this would dissuade Putin. And all he seems to be is motivated?
ROTH: Well, we don`t really know what Putin is thinking. The international criminal court has jurisdiction in Ukraine. So, it is investigating already what is going on back by 40 governments. This is a forum where they have jurisdiction over any crime committed in the territory of Ukraine, even though Russia is not a party to the court, so who is in principle, vulnerable.
Now, you know, Putin maybe you know, sitting there in the Kremlin and saying, who`s going to get me, what do I have to worry about? But, you know, other presidents have felt similarly, and they`ve turned out to be wrong. If you think back Slobodan Milosevic, the former Yugoslav president, you know, he signed the date and peace accord never been bothered asking for an amnesty. The government changed in Serbia, the new government wanted to show itself before us, it sent him off to the head, get a similarly former Sudanese President Omar Al Bashir charged by the International Criminal Court with genocide, and therefore he`s now sitting in custody in tune with former Liberian President Charles Taylor thought he would have a nice comfortable retirement in Nigeria, he ended up being convicted in The Hague. So you just never know, you know, when a government might change and when politics might make it convenient for a new government, just send off the case to trial.
Now, I think the big issue there was not simply justice now, but also deterrent for future atrocities. Ali, was talking about, you know, what about Mariupol? Yes, we`re all worried about. You know, Bucha is a relatively small city of 30,000. Mariupol is a big city afford them 30,000 roughly 100,000 remain there. You know, we have we know that Mariupol has been indiscriminately bomb, a separate war crime, we know it`s besieged. We don`t know how Russian troops are operating on the ground. But we fear the worst. And Putin is now on notice, you know, these are the kinds of atrocities that his troops are committing. It`s essential that he stopped this or he indeed, we`ll face criminal liability for these kinds of trusts.
RUHLE: Is Putin on notice, Ambassador? Or is Ukraine on notice? What does this do to the Ukrainian army to the Ukrainian people? They`re the ones who would seem to be most devastated by this. I mean, I said it earlier, Putin`s approval rating is actually going up right now.
TAYLOR: And the Russian people were paying, Stephanie, the Russian people were paying in terms of the sanctions that their soldiers have been killed, their brothers and coming back dead.
[23:15:05]
But you asked who`s paying, yeah, the Ukrainians are clearly suffering. But the Ukrainians are determined like never before. They are going to prevail. They`re going to continue to fight hard. They`re going to continue to fight long. As Jake Sullivan said today, if they`re going to fight as long as they can, and we need to support them, so that they can continue to make that fight. We need to provide him with the ammunition, with the weapons with the fuel, with the economic support. We need to support the Ukrainians as they fight. They`re fighting our fights, Stephanie. They`re on the front line, and they are fighting as fiercely as ever before because of these atrocities.
RUHLE: Shannon, let`s talk about those sanctions because the White House says more coming, while Zelenskyy says sanctions aren`t enough. So remind our audience, we are providing a lot more support than sanctions. So walk us through that. And what are we looking to do now?
SHANNON PETTYPIECE, NBC NEWS.COM SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, when it comes to sanctions, there was this belief in the administration, the beginning of this conflict, that the biggest tool and weapon that the U.S. and the Western countries ultimately had was their economic power over Russia, and their power to extract massive economic pain on Putin on his closest allies on the Russian people even, there have been hundreds of sanctions placed, obviously, we have continued to see these atrocities continue and be carried out.
You know, the administration has pushed back when asked, you know, why aren`t these sanctions working, and so that these are essentially going to take time that they do not anticipate any of these sanctions being something that work over the short term, but being something that could work over the long term.
We heard the President say he plans additional sanctions. We don`t know exactly what those are. But there`s certainly room to sanction further, billionaires in Russia, believe it or not, there`s a, you know, dozens of billionaires in the country who still haven`t been sanctioned. There`s billionaires who are sanctioned by the E.U. who haven`t been sanctioned by the U.S. There is a big issue of gas and oil being imported into Europe right now. And putting a ban and a blockade on that that is something that at the beginning of this conflict, European countries like Germany weren`t going to touch. And now you`re seeing officials throughout Europe, including Germany starting to talk about a ban on oil and gas from Russia.
So there`s a few levers that are still out there that are big that could be pulled economically. But as this conflict has progressed, this idea that the solution and the biggest weapon is going to be an economic one. It does seem to be shifting when you listen to administration officials, as they now begin to talk more about how the solution to this is probably or potentially going to be, I should say, a military militarily one. And that`s where you`re seeing increase, not just in the amount of weaponry being sent, but also the high tech level of equipment being sent going from the, you know, guns and sort of relatively primitive missile systems to some of the really top state of the art equipment that has now been sent.
The administration setting, they are going to continue sending that as well, with the acknowledgement that the thing that might stop Putin might not be an economic depression. It might be pure, beating back of Russian troops by the Ukrainian forces with the help of U.S. weaponry.
RUHLE: Shannon Pettypiece, Ambassador Bill Taylor, and Kenneth Roth thank you all for joining us this evening. We`re going to leave it there.
Coming up, the historic week ahead for Ketanji Brown Jackson, what to expect as her Supreme Court nomination nears a final vote in the Senate. Plus, new reporting on how the Attorney General`s careful approach to the January 6 investigation has frustrated even President Biden himself. And later the fleecing of America stunning examples of flagrant fraud from those taking advantage of pandemic relief funds, the 11th Hour just getting underway on this busy Monday night.
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[23:23:47]
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DICK DURBIN, (D-IL), SENATE MAJORITY WHIP: There was table pounding, some literal from a few of my colleagues, Judge Jackson is a better person than me. She stayed calm and collected.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: But if we`re in charge she would not have met before this committee, you had had somebody more moderate than this.
SEN. CHRIS COONS, (D) DELAWARE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Judge Jackson is not soft on crime. She is not a radical liberal activist judge.
SEN. MIKE LEE, (R) UTAH JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Let`s remember how they`re still treating Justice Clarence Thomas, I hope — people on the left are savagely attacking him.
SEN. CORY BOOKER, (D) NEW JERSEY JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: It was the treatment in some of these questions that triggered a hurt in so many people I know. Judge Jackson, all the way to the highest court in the land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: After a deadlocked party line vote in the Judiciary Committee, the full Senate is now expected to hold a final confirmation vote for Supreme Court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson later this week. Senators Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney announced they will vote to confirm Judge Jackson, now making it three Republicans backing the historic nominee.
And in more legal news tonight, New York Times reporting White House allies and even the President himself have gotten frustrated. The Attorney General`s approach toward the January 6 investigation, “while the president has never committed indicated his frustrations directly to Merrick Garland, Biden has said privately that he wanted Garland to act less like a ponderous judge and more like a prosecutor willing to take decisive action over the events of Jan. 6.
[23:25:13]
So let`s dig in. With us tonight one of the co-authors of that report, Michael Schmidt, Washington Correspondent for The New York Times who covers national security and federal investigations, and a pair of two NBC Legal Analysts and Neal Katyal, Department of Justice veteran and former acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration, and Tali Farhadian Weinstein, a former federal and state prosecutor in New York, she clerked for Merrick Garland and Justice Sandra Day O`Connor.
Michael, it is your reporting. So I want to start with you. What is the President`s concern? How frustrated is he?
MICHAEL SCHMIDT, THE NEW YORK TIMES WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I think the President shared the view that many Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans felt last year which was that Donald Trump and his supporters in his allies had blatantly gone out and tried to overturn in an election and that had led to an insurrection on the Capitol. And they were frustrated that there was not a lot that was being done about this. And into Biden, I think Biden felt that the Attorney General was acting too much like a judge, was being too patient with what Biden sees as a true threat to democracy, the knife to democracy`s throat, as Biden has described it, and he wanted someone more of action.
Now, if you know, there has been more movement on the Justice Department`s side, in terms of the investigation, we`ve seen a widening of it, we`ve seen them, they`re looking at a range of individuals and roles they could have played in the planning and — of the rally beforehand. At the same time, I think that many Democrats, certainly the ones on the January 6 committee will say that they still think the Justice Department is acting too slowly and not doing enough.
RUHLE: So Michael, if suddenly, Merrick Garland does something now, is there a chance that that looks too political, like he`s succumbing to political pressure?
SCHMIDT: Well, this is one of the reasons why and we learned this really well during the Trump administration, that a President of the United States should not weigh in about a criminal investigation, because there is a problem of an appearance and appearance that the President is, is that the Justice Department is being used as the appendage of the White House for political means for the President.
Now, it`s important to note that our reporting shows something different than what Trump did. What Trump did is that he would directly call out publicly what he wanted the Justice Department to do. And at times, he would corner top law enforcement officials and tell them what they should be doing. We do not have evidence in this case. What we`re reporting on is what Biden has said to his inner circle in private, frustrations that he has expressed. At the same time, the disclosure of those frustrations, some people would say, is not a great look for the independence of the Justice Department, because any move the Justice Department will take what will have that appearance behind it. And we`ve seen an example of this.
Biden came out a couple of months ago when there was questions about those that were being held in contempt of Congress. And Biden said publicly that he thought that those people should be held accountable for that. And the Justice Department was forced to put out a statement that said they were not going to listen to the President. They were going to follow the laws and the fact.
RUHLE: OK, well, then, Neal, I`m a mere civilian, if Merrick Garland and the Department of Justice are just following the facts and doing their jobs to me, this feels like it`s taking forever, is it or this is just how the system needs to work?
NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING U.S. SOLICITOR GENERAL: It is taking a long time and I have so much respect for Merrick Garland, I used to argue cases in front of him. He`s an extraordinarily brilliant jurist. But I understand why patience is wearing thin at this point. And, you know, the news that Michael and others have reported is that there is some progress in the investigation, including some looking at higher ups.
But I guess what I`m concerned about is the fact that it`s been a long time, memories fade in waiting, you know, witnesses kind of forget things and are and magically forget things, particularly if they worked for Trump. And so with every passing day, you got to worry more and more. And to me, the most critical sign is that is this normally in an investigation if you subpoena some higher up Trump or one of the people around him, they freak out and are afraid to go to court and they file a motion to quash that subpoena in court. That`s an overt document and they`ve done so in New York and other places with state investigations we`ve seen nothing like that at the federal level and that`s at least one sign that so far, the investigation hasn`t really looked seriously at Trump and his very, very inner circle.
[23:30:18]
RUHLE: Tali, you know, Merrick Garland and his process, well, are people right, to be frustrated and upset that things are taking so long?
TALI FARHADIAN WEINSTEIN, FORMER NY FEDERAL AND STATE PROSECUTOR: I do know him well, Stephanie. I`ve known him for about 20 years now. And let me tell you, this is not a person who caves to pressure. This is not a person who shirks responsibility. And he is not someone who screws up. I literally cannot think of a time that he screwed up on anything of import.
And, you know, what Neal describes is the end game of a long prosecution, a long investigation, excuse me, where you would start to see some of the signs that he has laid out. But just because we`re not at the end doesn`t mean that he`s not deep in it. I take him at his word that he is doing the work. And I will say that, you know, as much as there`s frustration that there have not been leaks, positive leaks about the direction of the investigation growing neither have there been the opposite kind of leaks.
Think about in contrast, the investigation here in New York at the state level in the Manhattan DA`s office into Donald Trump, we`ve seen people resign top prosecutors resigned because they`re frustrated with some of the DA`s decisions. We`ve seen evidence that there`s declination that there`s a grand jury that`s running out of time, and has not produced an indictment. And even though there are so many moving parts from we know, from Mike`s reporting in the DOJ investigation, hundreds of cases have already been brought connected to January 6, the scope has grown. There has not been any evidence that anything is falling apart that anything has been set aside. And or that Attorney General Garland has really declined to do anything.
RUHLE: It`s such a good point, there have been no leaks. And when you think about the last administration, we became addicted to all the leaking, we had all the information and now they`ve got it buttoned up. We want to know what`s going on inside.
Neal, let`s turn to Ketanji Brown Jackson`s confirmation because I want to share part of Mitt Romney statement today, where he says, “While I do not expect to agree with every decision she may make on the court, I believe that she more than meets the standard of excellence and integrity. Should that not be the standard for all the senators?
KATYAL: 100%, Stephanie, and I`ve argued 45 cases at the Supreme Court. I have enormous respect for the court. But today`s vote by the Republicans in the Senate Judiciary Committee, all 11 voting against her tell me that they don`t share that same respect about the Supreme Court. I mean, that Senate vote was ridiculous. It mounted Republican saying we`ll never confirm someone who`s not Republican. They basically said the quiet part out loud people like Lindsey Graham, and these people have tried to ruin the Supreme Court. They`ve tried to ruin our crown jewel. And I`m so glad to see Senators Romney, Murkowski, and Collin stand up to this.
You know, I`d say this as someone who did what Romney, Murkowski, and Collins did, you know, I supported Neil Gorsuch, much to the chagrin of many of your viewers, but I felt he was qualified and he was replacing Justice Scalia. So he wasn`t moving the court far in one direction. You know, if anything, it might have made it a little more liberal. With here Justice Jackson replaces Justice Breyer, very hard to see much difference between the two, the idea that Ted Cruz and others have painted her as extreme. I guess the ancient legal doctrine refers to such claims as cuckoo. That`s ridiculous.
You know, they claim that she`s soft on crime. She`s supported by nearly every major cops organization in the country. They say that she`s soft on child pornography, something that`s been debunked by Fox News analyst by Fox News Analyst, you know, Andrew McCarthy and the like. It`s ridiculous. I`m so glad to see these votes. She`s going to be Justice Jackson later this week, and the country in the court will be much better for it.
RUHLE: Well, you are so glad but I am so sorry that we are out of time because I have a lot more questions. Michael Schmidt, Neal Katyal, Tali Farhadian Weinstein, thank you all.
Coming up, the fleecing of America, the shocking examples of fraud from people taking advantage of pandemic relief programs, who could have seen this coming? I`ll tell you we did when the 11th Hour continues.
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[23:39:24]
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RUHLE: Broth (ph), you don`t have any jurisdiction over the PPP program, when this thing was designed. Congress could have said and let`s make sure the congressional oversight committee looks at all of this but right now, there is no oversight committee is there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s correct. The oversight commission that I`m on does not have oversight authority over this this money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: At the start of the pandemic, the government flooded the economy with billions of dollars in pandemic assistance, money for Americans out of work, for businesses facing bankruptcy, for health care to pay for testing and vaccines and at the same time there were a lot of concerns about who specifically was getting that money.
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RUHLE: As long as we have this health crisis, we`re going to face this economic crisis, and we need more stimulus. But with that stimulus, we need oversight.
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RUHLE: Investment firms, private jet owners, basketball teams and restaurants, big ones, like Shake Shack, and Nathan`s Famous. We also know there was just outright jaw dropping fraud, as the New York Times put it back in May of 2020, we`re talking taxpayer money for struggling businesses, going to companies that didn`t exist, employees who weren`t real.
Here`s the sad truth. Whenever the government sends money out the door, there`s always a risk of fraud. We know it, fraudster is going to fraud. And over the last two years, the government has approved 5 trillion bucks in pandemic relief. That is a historic amount. And the fraud could be to. Investigators say it could be in the billions. So NBC News is relaunching a long time series, you may remember the fleecing of America, we are going to look at fraud more closely waste abuse.
And just as importantly, we will look at the people trying to go after the fraudsters and those trying to prevent it from happening in the first place or again, because let`s be honest, we are going to have another disaster. And we want to have confidence that when the government steps in to help, it`s spending taxpayer money in the right way. So this week, we are bringing you stories about what happened to COVID relief aid and what is being done about it.
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RUHLE: Two years ago, the pandemic shut down America, million stayed home and businesses without customers teetered on the edge. The government jumped in providing billions in emergency aid to get money to business owners fast Congress removed requirements like providing tax returns, and watchdogs warned that could lead to rampant fraud.
Do you believe if the government would have taken a few more days or a few more weeks to put these controls in place, we wouldn`t be in this situation with all this fraud?
HANNIBAL “MIKE” WARE, SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION INSPECTOR GENERAL: Absolutely. The fraud amounts that we`re going after criminally, as a nation, really not just my office, that would have been reduced dramatically.
RUHLE: Well, fraud in the paycheck Protection Program is well known. Another one, the economic injury disaster loan run by the Small Business Administration provided over $385 billion to small businesses. And from the start, it too was targeted by fraudsters.
WARE: To date in this particular program, we had identified over 87 billion in potential fraud.
RUHLE: Authorities were alarmed to see online tutorials to help commit fraud. And the warnings came within months July 2020, “serious concerns of potential fraud. Three months later, another report, perhaps $60 billion in fraud to people using the same address or bank account, last May over $6.6 billion, possibly paid to people using stolen identities in October, four and a half billion dollars in potential overpayments. And a month later, more than $3.6 billion paid to potentially ineligible businesses, some flagged on the government`s do not pay anti-fraud list.”
WARE: There is a balance that we can strike to protect the taxpayer and to help American small businesses. And I think we definitely missed that opportunity. And we should never miss it again.
RUHLE: In response, the Small Business Administration tells NBC News, it`s worked closely with the inspector general to identify and address all areas of concern. And last Friday announced the creation of a fraud risk management board to enhance controls, to prevent fraud. Now, it`s up to law enforcement to try to recover taxpayer money.
(On camera): Do you think you`ve tackled the lion`s share of it? Or is this just the tip of the iceberg?
SCOTT ASPHAUG, OREGON U.S. ATTORNEY: I don`t believe we`re anywhere near the bottom of that iceberg. We`re just getting going.
RUHLE: In Ohio, one man pleaded guilty to using his COVID small business loan to buy a $32,000 boat. In Georgia, a woman used her loan to pay for a vacation in Miami. In Oregon —
ASPHAUG: We have currently for prosecutors working 100% of their time on these cases. And that, you know, that — that`s a big ask of our office.
RUHLE: Last year, his office charged the man was submitting false applications for several companies and using the money to buy 25 properties in Oregon and California and purchase nearly 16,000 shares of Tesla stock. He`s since pleaded guilty.
(On camera): So, what happened to the Tesla stock?
ASPHAUG: Well, the Tesla`s stock went from this $2 million dollar investment to over $11 million. We seize that stock from two different brokerage accounts. In the end we cleared $11 million, which was 9 million more than he started with.
RUHLE: Good news for taxpayers but not nearly enough to make up for the billions never to be recovered.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[23:45:06]
RUHLE: As of today, we don`t know how much taxpayer money could be lost to fraud in this particular program. Because most of that money that went to small businesses were loans, and anyone who got one of those loans doesn`t have to start paying it back until 13 months later. This summer, when those loans come due, investigators expect they will have a better idea of the total fraud.
Tomorrow, we`ll take a closer look at what happened with the paycheck protection program where that money doesn`t have to get paid back. So here`s a clue, there`s going to be huge fraud.
Coming up next, though, the American military veteran who traveled to Ukraine and taught civilians how to defend themselves from Russians. Now, back in the States, he joins us with what he saw when the 11th Hour continues.
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[23:50:28]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDRIY SADOVYI, MAJOR OF LVIV, UKRAINE: Money or freedom? You must make choice. If choice money, you lost freedom, I choice freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: The people of Ukraine are fighting for their freedom every day. Despite being in the western part of the country. The city of Lviv has seen its share of Russian airstrikes like elsewhere and Ukraine leaves civilians have been forced to pick up arms to defend their city.
With us tonight, Matt Gallagher, author, veteran and contributing writer for Esquire. He and a group of fellow combat veterans traveled to Lviv, Ukraine to train a group of civilians on basic combat tactics. Matt, thank you for what you did. How and why did you pull this mission together?
MATT GALLAGHER, CONTRIBUTING WRITER ESQUIRE: It`s good to be with you, Stephanie. Thank you for having me. I`m really the impetus came through one of my friends, fellow combat veteran and a trainer, Adrian Bondberger (ph) and his wife, Arena, who`s Ukrainian. And they had contacts within the Lviv City Council who identified this need, they had a group of civilians ready and eager to learn how to do basic urban combat skills and training. They just needed some people willing to fly out there and teach them. So along with the third trainer, Benjamin Bush, himself, a veteran of Iraq, the three of us went and spent two very full weeks with these 50 or 60, regular Ukrainians, you know, they really just kind of covered the entire swath of the Lviv society, and we got to know them very well. And they gave us their time and commitment. And we tried to make every second that worth it for them.
RUHLE: Talk about that, because when you train these civilians, you say that you found leaders that you didn`t expect, like how geography teacher skills translated into war training.
GALLAGHER: Yeah, Petro (ph), he was incredible, you know, doesn`t look like a soldier, maybe a little bit bigger, had these very thick glasses. But, you know, at one point, we`re teaching a math class, just kind of very basic stuff, trying to familiarize these folks with, with how to kind of look at a map from a military perspective. And while you can`t beat a local geography teacher, to show the ins and outs to everyone. And, you know, he`s just one example of many there was another gentleman that comes to mind, real tall, brash guy, deep voice, we call them Robocop because he just had that kind of presence. Well, turned out, actually, he`d been practicing law for 40 years, and it was the courtroom where he learned to that kind of that bearing that made him a natural leader.
RUHLE: You then trained the trainers who are going to teach others when you left, did you feel confident that they could continue the job, it`s not ending?
GALLAGHER: No, it`s not. And you know, the reality is, we were just kind of beginning something right, trying to get these folks mobilized and prepared for if and when the war comes to them, they`ll be ready, right? The choice to pick up a gun, during a time of conflict is a very heavy one, and that that`s going to be up to them. These are again, these are not soldiers. These are everyday citizens who want to be able to protect their homes. So, you know, along with the Territorial Defense within the Ukrainian government, their tasks organized within different units. And, you know, they`re not going to go, they have some semblance of what to do, you know, these two weeks, especially under Ben Bush`s leadership, this was real deal training. They were moving and operating in complete silence in urban terrain.
I was just really impressed with what we accomplished in two weeks. And so much of that is a testament to their drive and dedication to this because I mean that they see the same images, we are right being broadcast a crap across the world. This is incredibly real for them. This is everything. This isn`t just their country. This is their lives. These are the lives of their family. There`ll be ready. There`ll be ready if the war comes to Lviv.
RUHLE: All right, Matt, thank you for what you did. Keep us posted if you head back there, Matt Gallagher. We appreciate you joining us tonight.
Coming up, one of Twitter`s most vocal critics now the company`s largest shareholder. Welcome to capitalism when the 11th Hour continues.
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[23:58:55]
RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX is one of Twitter`s largest critics. And now its biggest shareholder. The world`s richest person bought up about 9% of the company and his reasons why have launched a lot of questions.
Back in December, Musk tweeted a meme depicting Twitter`s new CEO as Joseph Stalin. In February as Russia invaded Ukraine, Musk said he resisted demands to block Russia`s new sites from his Starlink internet satellites, calling himself a free speech absolutist.
Just less than two weeks ago, he pulled his 80 million followers asking if Twitter adheres to the principle that free speech is essential to a functioning democracy. Then he asked, is a new platform needed? When asked if he would consider building one, Musk replied he was giving it serious thought. But as we`ve seen with former President Trump`s attempt to launch a social media platform, it`s not so easy.
Bloomberg opinion columnist Tim O`Brien points this out today, “Musk probably isn`t in it for the money even though he`s made about a billion bucks on paper he invested in Twitter to push it around and that should worry free speech advocates.”
O`Brien goes on to say Musk fashions himself a free speech purist, but he bullies his critics, free speech. The question is, who`s free speech? And the bigger question on everyone`s mind now, will Musk`s newfound Twitter power mean Trump will be back on the platform.
And on that possibly nightmare inducing note, I wish you a good night. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with us. I`ll see you at the end of tomorrow.