Updated
Summary
The January 6 Committee announced that they will continue their hearing on September as more evidence continue pouring in which they believe is important to the investigation. January 6 Committee member Rep. Zoe Lofgren announced that the U.S. Secret Service is now under criminal investigation by the committee for deleting the text messages that are pertinent to the investigation. Criminal defendant Steve Bannon walked into federal court in Washington today wearing his inexplicable trademark two shirts and walked out a convicted criminal with two guilty verdicts.
Transcript
GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE LAWYER: And so, this was all bullshit, if you will, because it`s like anything he — anything — anything he said to Meadows would be just as privilege to anything he would say to Trump.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: That`s a great. It`s a great point. Yes. There`s not some constitutional force feed.
Yes, yes, there is not some constitutional force feed around Donald Trump as an individual, which is how it sort of seems to be he is trying to sort of spin it in these — in these depositions. But I`m glad — I`m glad you said that, because I`ve been — I`ve been — it`s been — it`s drive me a little crazy. George Conway, thank you for coming with us tonight. Have a great weekend. I appreciate it.
That does it for the super-sized edition of All In. The Last Word with Lawrence O`Donnell starts right now. Good evening, Lawrence.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC, HOST: Good evening, Chris. I just heard George Conway use a word that I guess it`s a Friday night onward, right? Like, you can — it`s different — different vocabulary rules on Friday.
HAYES: I can`t control — O can`t control my guests say.
O`DONNELL: Ok.
HAYES: I`m just — I`m just a humble host.
O`DONNELL: So, let me get straight. On Friday night, there`s different rules for guests, but the host rules are all the same.
HAYES: Always the same.
O`DONNELL: There`s a list — there`s a list of words that I can`t say. It applies for Friday night too.
HAYES: Even on a July Friday night at 10 o`clock.
O`DONNELL: Late at night, late at night, 10 o`clock. OK, the kids are still watching. OK, I got it. Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Well, the two shirts guy is now the two guilty verdicts guy. Steve Bannon, who always wears two shirts for reasons known only to him, was found guilty on two counts of criminal contempt of Congress in federal court today in Washington, D.C.
Former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirschner was in the courtroom, and will join us later in this hour with the unsurprising details of those two guilty. When I watch the January 6 committee hearings, especially one that includes video of Donald Trump and his children, I always wonder what Mary Trump is thinking. Mary Trump will tell us exactly what she was thinking last night, watching that hearing, when she joins us at the end of the hour tonight.
And of course, I always wonder what Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe seized in these hearings, and we are lucky to have him joining us tonight to share his reaction to what we all heard last night.
And as we have done after each of these hearings, we will begin our discussion tonight with the legal team of Katyal and Berke, Neal Katyal and Barry Berke whose expertise will illuminate the most important elements of the testimony last night.
The committee announced last night that they will resume public hearings in September because evidence continues to develop and emerge in their investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): In the course of these hearings, we have received new evidence and new witnesses have bravely stepped forward. Efforts to litigate and overcome immunity and executive privilege claims have been successful and those continue. Doors have opened. New subpoenas have been issued. And the dam has begun to break.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The dam has begun to break. Evidence is now pouring into the committee from new sources like the Secret Service. The Secret Service has just completed its worst week since the last week of November 1963 when President John F. Kennedy was assassinated because the Secret Service did not yet know how to protect a president in a motorcade.
A week ago, we learned of an investigation of the Secret Service, by the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security. In which the inspector general discovered the Secret Service had deleted all Secret Service text messages sent and received on January 6th.
By the end of this week, the inspector general announced that his investigation is now a criminal investigation of the Secret Service. The January 6 committee member, Zoe Lofgren, broke the news yesterday in an interview with Nicolle Wallace on MSNBC that some Secret Service agents have hired private criminal defense lawyers to represent them in negotiations for their testimony with the January 6th committee. Here`s what January 6 committee member Adam Kinzinger said about that today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Now, all of a sudden, you have the Secret Service members lawyering up and not coming in to talk to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Congressman Kinzinger said that first thing this morning, and in the late afternoon today, the director of the Secret Service, James Murray, finally broke his silence on the worst scandal ever to hit the Secret Service. After one week of total silence, the director of the Secret Service issued a written statement, which was, at this point, very difficult to believe.
[22:04:58]
James Murray said in writing, I am firmly reiterating the commitment of the United States Secret Service in supporting the extraordinary efforts of the January 6th select committee. Since day one, I have directed our personnel to cooperate fully and completely with the committee, and we are currently finalizing dates and times for our personnel to make themselves available to the committee for follow-up inquiries.
That last bit is absolutely not true. We are currently finalizing dates and times for our personnel, to make themselves available to the committee. No, you`re not. Their criminal defense lawyers are doing that.
James Murray`s written statement does not mention the existence of the privately hired criminal defense lawyers who are now reportedly representing Donald Trump`s favorite Secret Service agent, Tony Ornato, who has — who was the head of Donald Trump`s Secret Service detail on January 6th. Bobby Engel, the unnamed — the — who was also in the SUV that day, and the unnamed driver, who was in the presidential SUV that day. Donald Trump wanted them to take him to the capitol, to join the attackers of the capitol on January 6th.
We, here at the Last Word asked to questions of the Secret Service today, just two questions. Question one, has James Murray, the director of the Secret Service hired his own private legal defense council? Question two, did James Murray, director of the Secret Service, preserve his own January 6th text messages on his Secret Service phone?
We got the same answer to both questions, which was, no answer at all. James Murray`s one-page written statement today does not even mention Secret Service text messages. James Murray does not have one word to say to the people of the United States, to the Congress of United States, to the president of the United States, about the Secret Services deleted text messages.
James Murray authorized the deletion of Secret Service text messages after January 6th, when he knew that the Secret Service communications on January 6 had instantly become the most important Secret Service communications in the history of the Secret Service. He knew that when he allowed them to be deleted.
James Murray knew they were going to be deleted. James Murray is leaving the Secret Service at the end of next week to become the highly paid director of corporate security for Snapchat. And when he shows up eventually to the January 6th committee to testify under oath, you can be very sure, he will then have a very highly paid private criminal defense lawyer.
Instead of explaining why he authorized the deletion of the text messages after January 6th, in his written statement today, James Murray said, quote, “the men and women of the United States Secret Service are worthy of trust and confidence.”
We always thought so, until exactly one week ago. And now, the Secret Service has a long way to go, to be worthy of trust and confidence, because James Murray has directed the Secret Service into the worst scandal in Secret Service history, that is now the subject of a criminal investigation with Secret Service agents lawyering up.
That is how James Murray is going to leave the Secret Service after being appointed director of the Secret Service, because Donald Trump`s favorite Secret Service agent, Tony Ornato told Donald Trump to appoint his friend, James Murray, as director of the Secret Service.
And you can be sure that there were pledges to Donald Trump from Tony Ornato and James Murray, that James Murray would be loyal. The thing Donald Trump demands of anyone that he was appointing. The thing that he demanded from James Comey in a conversation about James Comey`s possible continuation as FBI director, and when James Comey did not pledge his loyalty, Donald Trump fired him.
So, we know, we know what kind of pledges of loyalty Donald Trump exacts in those tuitions. Did James Murray delete the January 6 text message — text messages on his own Secret Service phone? I have asked that question publicly here on television, and I have asked that question directly to the Secret Service. No answer.
In his written statement today, James Murray did the press release equivalent of taking the fifth amendment. He refused to say one word about the Secret Service text messages, including his own text messages on January 6th.
[22:10:09]
He used the right to remain silent that criminal defendants have. The dam has begun to break in a way that means we are going to learn much more about the Secret Service text messages that the Secret Service wants to remain secret.
Last night, the January 6 committee delivered a full accounting of the 187 minutes during the attack on the capitol when Donald Trump did nothing to defend the capitol. But the evidence shows that Donald Trump was not doing nothing.
It now shows that Donald Trump was the commander-in-chief of the insurrection at the capitol, the commander-in-chief who wanted to go to the capitol to join his troops, attacking the capitol. The evidence shows that after a struggle that became physical, in the presidential SUV, Donald Trump was returned to the White House where the motorcade spent 45 minutes in the driveway, waiting for the final official word that they would not be going to the capitol.
That means Donald Trump spent another 45 minutes in the White House trying to get to the capitol. In the White House, he chose a smaller room than the Oval Office, less accessible to White House staff, to mostly seal himself off from people who wanted him to act as the commander-in-chief of the United States of America.
He sat in a small dining room near the Oval Office and watched the coverage of his insurrection troops on Fox. It was the insurrection version of a president watching the armed services of the United States carry out a mission from the situation room.
Here is the most famous image of a President of the United States, doing exactly that. That`s the President of the United States, watching his troops in action on the successful mission to get Osama Bin Laden. President Obama issued the order to go on that mission, and then all he could do was watch the navy SEALS in action. On January 6th, Donald Trump was watching the troops who he sent into action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS), CHAIR, JANUARY 6 COMMITTEE: He summoned a mob to Washington, afterward on January 6th when he knew that the assemble mob was heavily armed and angry, he commanded the mob to go to the capitol and he emphatically commanded the heavily armed mob to fight like hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: While Donald Trump was watching his mom fight like hell on television, a mob who he was informed was an armed mob, he already knew that. He was watching them fight like hell on television as he had commanded them to do, Donald Trump took the action of firing a missile into a war zone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): Donald Trump sent his 2.24 tweet, the president said, Mike Pence didn`t have the courage to do what should`ve been done to protect our country and our Constitution. Despite knowing the capitol had been breached and the mob was in the building, President Trump called Mike Pence a coward and placed all the blame on him for not stopping the certification. He put a target on his own vice president`s back.
SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They truly latched onto every word in every tweet that he says, and so, I think, in that moment for him to tweet out the message about Mike Pence, it was him pouring gasoline on the fire and making it much worse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: That tweet was ammunition for that crowd. That tweet was the equivalent that day of the arms that President Biden is sending to Ukraine for the battle there. Donald Trump did everything he could, possibly could, from the White House to encourage his troops at the insurrection.
For the commander-in-chief of the insurrection, that tweet was a very successful missile strike. The Trump mob after that tweet surged even more forcefully and more violently while Donald Trump remains busy calling senators to try to convince them to overturn the results of the presidential election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KINZINGER: He told Mark Meadows that the rioters were doing what they should be doing, and the rioters understood they were doing what President Trump wanted them to do.
LURIA: Donald Trump summoned the violent mob and promised to lead that mob to the capitol to compel those he thought would cave to that kind of pressure. And when he was thwarted in his effort to lead the armed uprising, he instigated the attackers to target the vice president with violence, a man who just wanted to do his constitutional duty.
[22:15:09]
So, in the end, this is not as it may appear a story of inaction in a time of crisis. But instead, it was the final action of Donald Trump`s own plan to assert the will of the American people and remain in power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: At the beginning of last night`s hearing, chairman Bennie Thompson promised that the committee would prove its case against Donald Trump beyond a reasonable doubt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMPSON: There can be no doubt that that work are coordinated multi-step effort to overturn an election overseeing and directed by Donald Trump. There could be no doubt that he commanded a mob, a mob he knew was heavily armed, violent, and angry, to march on the capitol to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: At the end of last night`s hearing there was no doubt. Leading off our discussion tonight, Barry Berke who served as special counsel to the House judiciary committee during Donald Trump`s first impeachment trial and chief impeachment counsel during Donald Trump`s second impeachment trial.
Also with us, Neal Katyal, former acting U.S. solicitor general and an MSNBC legal analyst.
Thank you very much for rejoining us tonight. And as I always do here, I just want to open it to each one of you without leading you in any way, about what you saw as the highlights. Barry Berke, what was important to you in last night`s hearing?
BARRY BERKE, FORMER HOUSE IMPEACHMENT HOUSE INQUIRY CHIEF COUNSEL: I`m glad to go before Neal. I`ll tell you, last night was the culmination of Donald Trump`s scheme. But it recast everything that preceded it. Because mostly the criminal case they have been showing is a white-collar criminal case, meaning it`s somewhat technical, you have to understand about electors and the electoral scheme in the certification process.
And the harm, as great is it is, the harms to democracy is somewhat abstract. Last night, recast this white-collar criminal case into a violent crime prosecution. You show the culmination of Donald Trump`s efforts to interfere with Congress was sending this mob, refusing to stop them and then inciting them further.
And everybody, every American citizen, a juror can understand why the Secret Service people protecting the security detail of the vice president are calling their families because they fear for their life. That is a crime that everyone can understand. And it is the culmination of the entire efforts to interfere.
So, I think last night changed the complexion of everything. Because it showed Donald Trump`s responsibility for it and it`s important for the American people to see how bad this really was, how close it came. And it was a huge assist to the Department of Justice as well.
O`DONNELL: Neal Katyal, what was important to you?
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I agree very much with Barry about the shift from a white-collar case to a violent crime case. I guess I`d make a different point, which is, to me, what came out yesterday was criminal intent through and through. And Lawrence, your opening remarks got at this a little bit.
Trump`s defense all throughout has been, hey, maybe I did — I was guilty of omission or maybe I made a mistake or something like that. What the evidence showed yesterday is this was no mistake. It was a premeditated deliberated plan, hatched actually before the election.
Steve Bannon, they showed audiotape on October 30th before the election saying, this is the Trump plan, he is going to declare victory even if he loses. A White House lawyer yesterday testified that Donald Trump didn`t want to do anything to stop the violence on January 6th at the same time they knew, that Trump knew it was unfolding.
Even the next day on January 7th Trump couldn`t bring himself, Lawrence, to say that the election was over. And so, to me, the picture painted is Trump`s top advisers, his lawyers, his counsel, his family, all of them said over and over again put it into the violence. And what did Donald Trump do? He grabbed a bag of popcorn and start watching TV, instead of doing would any reasonable commander-in-chief would`ve done. It`s devastating.
O`DONNELL: Barry, a lot of people are asking, you know, what are the — what should the prosecutors be doing. Let me — let me phrase it a different way. You have experience as a defense attorney. And I`m imagining — imagine a world in which Donald Trump had a really good criminal defense attorney which, so far, we haven`t seen that — but if he did, would that criminal defense attorney be telling Donald Trump are his possible criminal liabilities in the testimony that was delivered last night?
BERKE: I think a good criminal defense lawyer would tell him, Mr. client, you are in big trouble, Mr. President. You have seen a case that is very simple for them to prove. Well, a lot of people want to talk about whether it`s a seditious conspiracy.
[22:19:59]
Prosecutors really charged the hardest crime to prove. All they have to show is a significant crime, interfering with Congress`s certification of the vote, an official proceeding. That is a crime that is prosecuted all the time. We have seen it.
The evidence of that is overwhelming. They floated all of these defenses that have been shown to be untrue. And to Neal`s really smart point about criminal intent, his failure to act shows that this is what he wanted all along. And it`s easy to understand. It`s hard to get into someone`s mind. But when they refused to act, when they are happy, when they are rooting it on, it shows what they wanted.
And when you have all the conduct, it`s not just about disputing the election in court. But doing things you can never do, like telling a state, a state — secretary of state to find votes, telling your senior leadership in the Department of Justice, just say it`s fraught, I`ll do the rest. That is indefensible.
So, I think, in the ordinary course, a good defense lawyer is going to start talking about a plea. With this former president, we know that`s not going to happen. So, if the Department of Justice does in fact, act to create a deterrent not just for Donald Trump but all the copycats out there who now think it`s really cool to claim they are going to interfere with elections or elections were stolen, putting our democracy at risk.
If the department acts, they are going to have an overwhelmingly strong case based on all this evidence. And they can do more.
O`DONNELL: Let`s listen once again to Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony about where she said that Donald Trump thought that Mike Pence deserves what the crowd was trying to do to him and saying about him. This is testimony that they have used more than once. It is so important to this committee that they use it again last night. Let`s listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: I remember Pat saying something to the effect of, Mark, we need to do something more. They are literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. And Mark had responded something to be effect of, you heard it, Pat, he thinks Mike deserves it, he doesn`t think they are doing anything wrong. To which Pat said something, this is effing crazy. We need to be doing something more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Neal, what do you see as the possible chargeable crimes here against the pres — against Donald Trump?
KATYAL: So, you know, you know it`s bad when the great Barry Berke says, I`d plead this case out. Like, you know, if can`t defend it, you know, it`s not defensible. And so, I do think that the Pence piece is a part of that. And yesterday, Lawrence, the testimony, not just the replayed Cassidy Hutchinson testimony, but the testimony of Secret Service agents who were calling their families, saying, I might not see you again, this might be it, is just so powerful — and Trump sitting on his hands.
And so, that leads to allegations of both seditious conspiracy and insurrection, both of which, I think Barry is right to say, those are the harder crimes to prove. It doesn`t mean the prosecutor wouldn`t charge them. They may, because the evidence is mounting on them. But there are easier charges for prosecutors like obstruction of an official proceeding, which is the 1512 statute, as well as conspiracy to defraud the United States.
Those latter two are crimes that have already been isolated by a very highly respected federal judge reviewing the civil case and has said, it`s more likely than not that Donald Trump committed both of those felonies. And Lawrence, the testimony yesterday paints a picture not just of those two felonies but those two felonies plus others, like seditious conspiracy and insurrection.
So, this is a real — I mean, this is as bad as it could get for Trump. The evidence is now airing for the entire American public, even if Merrick Garland wanted to kind of pretend it didn`t happen and sweep it under the rug, not be the first attorney general to have to indict former president, it`s very hard for him not to in light of what the committee has put before the American people.
O`DONNELL: We are going to get to Merrick Garland next, in the next segment. Neal Katyal and Barry Berke, thank you both very much for starting off our discussion.
KATYAL: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you. And up next, we are going to get this close to Merrick Garland as we can when we are joined by Harvard law professor Laurence Tribe, who taught constitutional law to Attorney General Merrick Garland. Professor Tribe will tell us what the attorney general should be focusing on in last night`s testimony and what the attorney general should be thinking in terms of possible criminal charges against Donald Trump. That`s next.
[22:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINZINGER: Donald Trump`s conduct on January 6th was a supreme violation of his oath of office and a complete dereliction of his duty to our nation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: After the hearing, Congressman Adam Kinzinger said this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KINZINGER: I think the president certainly has criminal exposure. I`m not the prosecutor, I`m not DOJ. But I certainly think if you look at what we presented tonight and in all these hearings, that cannot be acceptable for the president of the United States. Like the worst thing we can do is put out something that says, the president is bubble on can do this again because I guarantee you if will happen again if we say that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Professor Laurence Tribe, who has taught constitutional law at Harvard Law School for five decades. His students have included former President Barack Obama and current Attorney General Merrick Garland.
As you watch these hearings, I know you have your former student Merrick Garland in mind. What are you hoping the attorney general saw in last night`s hearing?
[22:29:42]
LAURENCE TRIBE, PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: Well, I believe he saw the culmination of an extraordinary presentation in which there is no conclusion possible other than the one that the very impressive law firm of Barry Berke and Neal Katyal presented on your show just a few minutes ago, namely that the president of the United States deliberately decided that he was going to seize and retain power no matter what.
He exhausted all possibilities in terms of going to court. That was fine. But when that didn`t work he developed phony electoral certificates. And when that looked like it was not going to work, he assembled an angry mob. He knew that they were armed. He aimed them at the Capitol. He made sure the magnetometer`s were off. He knew that some of the arms were deadly, AR- 15s were included.
And then, as Merrick Garland undoubtedly watched last night`s hearing, we saw that 187 minutes pass in which, as you said Lawrence, quite powerfully, Merrick watched the commander-in-chief, not of the United States but the commander-in-chief of an armed insurrectionary mob aimed at the Capitol. And during those 187 minutes, he did everything he could to make sure that they continued on their course.
He sent out a tweet, making sure that they knew that he thought the vice president was a coward. It was clear that the mob was doing exactly what he wanted. And what I am hoping that Merrick Garland will do is recognize that just as he told the American people in a press conference a couple of days ago, nothing could be more dangerous to the country than not to hold accountable someone who commits the high crime, the serious federal felony of attempting to overturn a democratic election.
And I think that at this point, Merrick Garland has only one decision to make. And that is, how quickly to move forward. He can wait and the longer he waits, the more powerful the evidence will be.
But the perfect should not become the enemy of the good. I hope that Merrick Garland realizes that time is not on his side. And that waiting indefinitely will not be a good idea when the country is on a course that puts it in collision with the survival of democracy.
And I think he is going to do what any good attorney general would do, but he`s a particularly powerful and brilliant one, and that is to organize an indictment that is airtight.
He could either go the rather simple course that Barry Berke suggested. Charge the easier but quite serious crimes of attempting to obstruct a congressional inquiry. Or he could go the more dramatic course that Neal Katyal suggests. And that is, seditious conspiracy and inciting and attempting to foment and aid and abet a violent insurrection.
He could do all of the above. It seems to me that there is no reason to leave anything on the field.
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: I think the way we have all been talking about it publicly separates January 6th and the attack on the Capitol from the phone call to Georgia around January 1st, which is the subject of a criminal grand jury investigation right now — Donald Trump is the subject of a criminal investigation in Georgia.
Everything he did in the phone call to Georgia also involves possible federal offenses of election interference. And so, what I`m wondering is, would a full indictment of what this committee has developed — which included one hearing that was about what happened in Georgia — would it possibly include the charges that Barry and Neal were talking about in relation to January 6th, in addition to possible charges involving what Donald Trump did in the attempt to interfere in Georgia?
TRIBE: I think the answer is yes. I think every state in which Donald Trump attempted to interfere represents part of a multi-pronged, octopus-like plan. It couldn`t have had more tentacles. But all of them are relevant. And the whole he`s greater than the sum of its parts.
[22:34:55]
TRIBE: When the jury — virtually any jury — hears and sees what we have all seen, and even if you winnow out the evidence that might not be admissible in a criminal trial, it will really have really no alternative but to conclude that Donald Trump is an ongoing danger to the republic. And that he has already committed the most serious crimes short of treason.
And in fact, by essentially waging war against the United States, he did what many people would have called treason. I think all of it has to be included and there is no reason to filter out anything.
I think that what Fani Willis is likely charging Georgia is likely to become part of what Merrick Garland should seriously consider including in a federal indictment.
O`DONNELL: Harvard Law professor Laurence Tribe, thank you very much for joining us once again. We always learn a great deal whenever we have you. Thank you very much.
TRIBE: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: And coming, Glenn Kirschner was in the courtroom today when Steve Bannon became the first member of the Trump team to be convicted of a crime because of the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Glenn Kirschner will join us next.
And in our last segment tonight, Mary Trump will be joining us with her reaction to what the committee showed her Uncle Donald doing during the attack on the Capitol.
[22:36:21]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Criminal defendant Steve Bannon walked into federal court in Washington today wearing his inexplicable trademark two shirts and walked out a convicted criminal with two guilty verdicts.
The judge scheduled his sentencing for October 21st. Steve Bannon`s convictions on two counts of criminal contempt of congress for refusing to testify and to provide documents to the January 6th committee are each punishable by a fine of up to $1,000 and a maximum of 12 months in prison. The jury apparently had no struggle in reaching a verdict after Steve Bannon literally presented no defense — none, nothing.
In her closing argument, federal prosecutor Molly Gaston said the case, quote, “is not complicated but it is important. The defendant chose allegiance to Donald Trump over compliance with the law.”
Steve Bannon is, no doubt already planning how to use whatever prison sentence he might get to cement his public image as a martyr for Donald Trump, a status he will be using for the rest of his life to try to trick Trump cultists out of their money.
Joining us now is Glenn Kirschner, former federal prosecutor and MSNBC legal analyst. He was in the courthouse and watched the entire trial.
Glenn, maybe the least surprising verdict of anything you and I have ever covered here.
GLENN KIRSCHNER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. As you say, Lawrence, Bannon presented no defense. You know, he promised that he was going to go medieval during the trial. I kept my eye out for anything that looked medieval and I think we were all let down. They really went out with a whimper.
Now of course, they gave yet another speech on the courthouse steps after Steve Bannon was convicted in under three hours of jury deliberations, promising to go medieval in the appellate court.
Well, let me tell you, Lawrence, that you know, appellate proceedings are cotillions as compared to trial court proceedings. So I don`t think we`re going to see anything medieval out of that but, you know, the Department Justice has come under withering criticism lately and I think we do need to acknowledge the really remarkable work of the two prosecutors in the case, Molly Gaston and Amanda Vaughn.
They tried a superb support case and they really left Bannon`s team nowhere to go. And I think that`s why the jury resolved case so of quickly. They barely had time to select the foreperson and have lunch.
O`DONNELL: And they had a Trump-appointed judge here. And what — the prosecution kept a simple case simple. It`s easy to make the mistake of thinking there is a lot of pressure on this case. We`ve got to do a lot. But they really reduced it as following your tweets today from inside the courtroom to like getting a parking ticket. You get a parking ticket, you don`t have choices. You`ve got to comply with what`s on that parking ticket.
KIRSCHNER: You don`t give the D.C. government an ultimatum if you get a parking ticket. You can go to court and contest it, which is what Steve Bannon could have done. He could`ve gone to Congress. He could`ve answered question by question by question. Those questions that did not involve potential privilege, and then, he could have invoked privilege for any questions that he reasonably believed did raise an executive privilege issue.
He didn`t do that. He not only defied the congressional subpoenas, Lawrence, but he posted and boasted and celebrated the fact that he was defying them. I think he was his own worst enemy, when he was basically posting a confession to the crime on social media.
O`DONNELL: The plan is to profit from the martyr status, eventually. Glenn Kirschner, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
KIRSCHNER: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, Donald Trump`s niece Mary Trump will join us next.
[22:44:55]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: The voices you are about to hear are our next guest`s Uncle Donald, and her cousin, Ivanka, who is coaching Donald.
[22:49:43]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack yesterday. And to those who broke the law, you will pay. You do not represent our movement. You do not represent our country and if you broke the law — can`t say that. I already said “you will pay”.
The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defied the seat of — defiled, right. I can`t see it very well.
Ok, I`ll do this. I`m going to do this. Let`s go.
This election is now over. Congress has certified the results — I don`t want to say the election is over, I just want to say, Congress has certified the results, without saying the election is over, ok?
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF Donald Trump: But Congress has certified. Now, Congress has certified —
TRUMP: Yes. Right.
I. TRUMP: Now, Congress has certified.
TRUMP: I didn`t say the election is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Mary Trump, niece of Donald Trump. She`s host of the podcast, “The Mary Trump Show”, and author of “The Reckoning: Our Nation`s Trauma and Finding a Way to Heal”.
Thank you very much for joining us tonight. What was going through your mind, as you were watching that final hearing of this initial series of it last night?
MARY TRUMP, AUTHOR: Lawrence, it`s interesting, because the outtakes were much — I don`t know if they were hyped, but they created a lot of expectation among viewers of the hearings last night. And I remember feeling underwhelmed because it wasn`t anything beyond what I had experienced from Donald before.
And it wasn`t until afterwards that I realized that there actually was a lot going on in that video. The only thing that surprised me was that he was actually holding it together as well as he did. But because he is sort of a master of self-deception, and as we know from his saying he won`t say that the election was over he was doing everything in his power to convince himself as well as everybody else that there was still room to doubt. And he needed — he needed to keep that door open, didn`t he?
O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what your cousin`s husband, Jared Kushner, had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JARED KUSHNER, FORMER TRUMP ADVISER: He told me it was getting really ugly over the Capitol. And said, please, you know, anything you can do help I would appreciate it.
I don`t recall a specific ask, just anything you could do. Again, I got the sense that, you know, they were, you know, they were scared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They, meaning Leader McCarthy and people on the Hill, because of the violence?
KUSHNER: That he was scared. Yes.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER, (R-IL): Think about that. Leader McCarthy, who was one of the president`s strongest supporters, was scared and begging for help. President Trump turned him down. So he tried to call the president`s children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Were you surprised that during the Trump White House years that other people in power in Washington decided that the best way to handle the situation is to call Donald`s children?
M. TRUMP: No. I mean, I`m not entirely sure why they thought it would be a good idea to contact anybody, but Ivanka or Jared. As we know, and you and I have spoken about that before, Donny didn`t even have the intestinal fortitude to call his father directly, if he even knew his cell phone number.
So, it doesn`t surprise me, because as we`ve seen throughout the years, Donald`s inner circle is shrinking by the second. And there are fewer and fewer people in his orbit who have any sway, and I`m not even suggesting that Ivanka and Jared do anymore, quite honestly.
So, they were probably the last perceived defense against Donald`s doing something incredibly reckless, which as we now know, was to do absolutely nothing, after he had incited the insurrection — insurrectionists.
O`DONNELL: So, the image of him in the 187 minutes seemed to change last night in the way the committee presented it from this idea, this popular idea that`s been out there that he just did nothing for the whole time, and now what they`re there representing was now he was very active. He was active in supporting as commander-in-chief the insurrection.
That that`s what he thought his job was, was to help the insurrection, and use the insurrection to be busy making phone calls to centers.
M. TRUMP: Right. And it was the only slight miss that last night, when Representative Kinzinger said that Donald refused to lead, and as you are suggesting, he actually did lead. He was just leading his people, as he`s been doing for the last four years, quite honestly.
He`s never led the American people. He`s only led people loyal to him, and he knew that the only people he could talk to, who would tell him what he wanted to hear, where people like Rudolph Giuliani and, you know, the execrable (ph) coward, Josh Hawley.
[22:54:55]
O`DONNELL: So that image of him moving into the small room, clearly to keep people out, that made perfect sense to you. He is isolating. He just wants to talk to the people who are going to encourage him.
M. TRUMP: Yes, absolutely, because why else would Donald avoid cameras and the press? It was simply because he needed to shield himself from a counter narrative that he had no interest in hearing, and that did not serve his purposes.
O`DONNELL: Mary Trump, thank you very much for your continued guidance in Trump studies here at THE LAST WORD. We always learn more about your uncle whenever you join us.
M. TRUMP: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you. We`ll be right back.
[22:55:39]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: That is this week`s LAST WORD.
“THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE” starts now.