Updated
Summary
Steve Bannon convicted in Jan. 6 related case. Jan. 6 committee raises questions about missing Secret Service text messages. Biden working from White House amid COVID diagnosis. Monkeypox cases reach at least 15,000 worldwide. Trump, Pence make dueling appearances in Arizona. 1/6 hearing impacting Trump`s brand.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: That is this week`s Last Word. The 11th Hour with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
ALICIA MENENDEZ, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, Trump ally Steve Bannon guilty of defying a subpoena sent by the January 6 committee, as fallout grows from last night`s damning hearing, raising still more questions over the Secret Service and security. What comes next for the committee?
Then, split screen rallies in Arizona as establishment Republicans take on the big lie, as the 11th Hour gets underway on this Friday night.
Good evening, I`m Alicia Menendez in for Stephanie Ruhle. And tonight, Steve Bannon is the first of Trump`s close aides to be convicted as a result of investigations into the Capitol riot. This afternoon, a jury in Washington found the political adviser turned podcaster guilty of two counts of contempt of Congress. Those charges are the result of his refusal to comply with a January 6 committee subpoena. The verdict came hours after the committee`s primetime hearing saw White House insiders paint a damning portrait of a president choosing to allow a deadly insurrection to rage unchecked.
Tonight, the panel called today`s Bannon verdict, “A victory for the rule of law and an important affirmation of the Select Committee`s work.” Despite the guilty verdict. Bannon and his lawyer remain defiant after the jury`s decision.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: The prosecutor missed one very important phrase, right? I stand with Trump and the Constitution, and I will never back off that ever.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is round one.
BANNON: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what happened.
DAVID SCHOEN, ATTORNEY FOR STEVE BANNON: This is a bulletproof appeal. You will see this case reversed on appeal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: As Bannon awaits his sentencing on October 21, the committee is promising a new round of public hearings in September. Tonight, member Jamie Raskin described what`s ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): There are still witnesses coming forward. And we still continue to learn more about the plot, even as all of the essential elements of Trump`s attempt to dismantle the results of the 2020 election and overturn the constitutional order are well known by now to everybody. So we have to book continue the investigation, but then also begin to wrap it up by figuring out, well, what are the legislative recommendations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: And a former adviser to the panel also hinted, there may be more surprises ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORMER REP. DENVER RIGGLEMAN, FORMER ADVISER TO JAN. 6TH COMMITTEE: There`s things that committee hasn`t released and there`s a lot more data than that. The committee even after eight hearings still has momentum. I know for a fact that they have a lot more data, they have an amazing amount of data.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: The committee is also focused on those missing secret service techs related to January 6. Agency Director James Murray today issued a statement saying, “I have directed our personnel to cooperate fully and completely with the committee. And we are currently finalizing dates and times for our personnel to make themselves available to the committee for follow up inquiries. Homeland Security Inspector General has opened a criminal inquiry into the missing tax. Some of the Secret Service agents who January 6 investigators would like to hear from have now hired their lawyers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Some of the officers said that they`d be coming and taking under oath. They have not come in, and they recently retained private counsel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you say the officers who have retained counsel, is that referring to Ornato and Engel?
LOFGREN: And the driver.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the driver?
LOFGREN: Yeah.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: The Congresswoman is referring to former White House Deputy Chief of Staff Tony Ornato, who had served as a secret service agent Robert Engel, the former head of Trump`s security detail. During last night`s hearing, we saw and heard evidence of what the agents assigned to protect Mike Pence for facing as rioters stormed the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold. Hold, they`ve entered the building. Hold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Harden that door up. If we`re moving, we need to move now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we lose any more time, we may have, we may lose that ability to leave. So, if we`re going to leave, we need to do it now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`ve gained access to the second floor. And I`ve got public about five feet from me down here below.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, copy. They are on the second floor. Moving in now. We may want to consider getting out and leaving now. Copy?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: That day was the start of the public political riff between former President Trump and Mike Pence. So tonight they are both in Arizona campaigning for two rival Republican candidates for governor. There is much more on that just ahead.
[23:05:09]
And with that let`s get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel. Jeremy Peters, a Political Reporter for the New York Times. He is the author of the new book, “Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party and Got Everything They Ever Wanted.” Ryan Reilly, Justice Reporter for NBC News. And Barbara McQuade, a veteran federal prosecutor and former U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan, she worked with the DOJ during the Biden transition, and is a professor at the University of Michigan`s law school.
It is good to see you all. Ryan, I want to start with you. You cover the Steve Bannon trial all week, from jury selection to verdict five days. Talk us through the arguments and the atmosphere in that court?
RYAN REILLY, NBC NEWS JUSTICE REPORTER: Yeah, you know, at the end of this, it was a pretty simple case that the government was trying to get forward. And that`s basically what they emphasize to the jury in closing arguments. And this is very straightforward. Steve Bannon have been subpoenaed, he was required to show up at this time, he didn`t show up at this time, he was required to turn over documents, he didn`t turn over documents. And that was basically their case, at 1.1 of the Assistant U.S. Attorneys was prosecuting the cases sort of compared Steve Bannon, in this case to someone a child who had been given a punishment, and was trying to argue against that punishment afterwards, but it`s too late, right? You need to go to timeout now. So that`s basically what they were trying to play Steve Bannon in this scenario.
And, you know, the jury only took three hours, and that included lunch in selecting a four person. So it was a relatively quick turnaround in this case, and I think that`s just because the case was so straightforward. And because Bannon — because of the judge`s rulings, and because of standing precedent, wasn`t able to actually put forward that much of a defense. He was very limited in the defenses that he was allowed to bring forward. And that`s something obviously that they`re preserving for appeal. That was a constant theme of this case throughout the week is that they are making a record for appeal. So that`s inevitably where we`re going next.
MENENDEZ: Right. Jeremy, it is evidently where we`re going. And of course, you had Bannon on Fox this evening, combining his promise to appeal that we`re just referencing with a broader political message against both Biden and the 1/6 committee. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: People have to understand right now this an ideological war and we cannot lose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: Listen, this trial is about accountability. But when it comes to Bannon`s supporters, how is it playing? And what would the takeaway be, if Bannon does end up in prison?
JEREMY PETERS, POLITICAL REPORTER, “THE NEW YORK TIMES”: So I`m not sure how many voters in November Republican or otherwise are going to remember Bannon`s trial as some type of flashpoint or galvanizing incident. But I will say that you`re absolutely right, that this overall theme of persecution that the grove Justice Department is trying to come after law abiding Trump supporters. That is the narrative that Republicans are pushing. That is a narrative that conservative media is pushing. And if you listen to that Tucker Carlson interview, Bannon basically laid out the entire playbook right there. And it`s the Trump playbook. They are coming for you. They are coming for us.
And if you inhabit this world of conservative media, that is basically all that you`ve been hearing about the January 6 committee, you`re not hearing about the phone calls that Secret Service agents made to their loved ones, which by the way, Tucker Carlson mocked tonight on the air. So yeah, I guess you did hear about it. But you heard about it in a mocking way. You`re not hearing about the fact that Mike Pence had to be escorted out within seconds of Secret Service agents fearing that he might be in danger that he and his family might — their lives might be in danger. What you`re hearing is, this is a lawless committee of an authoritarian regime that wants to lock anybody up who disagrees with the established order. And it`s a — that`s a very powerful message. It`s a disingenuous message. It`s a dangerous message in a lot of ways.
But that is how they see this committee. That is how voters are being sold, a bill of goods about what this committee is really doing and expect to hear a lot more of that not just from Steve Bannon and his supporters, but from President Trump, frankly, if he chooses to run again, which seems quite likely at this point.
MENENDEZ: Barbara, Jeremy just laid out how these plays with voters, especially the Trump true believers, but I want to hear from you, Bannon`s continued tough talk, his martyrdom. Is it going to have an effect on his sentencing and his appeal? how are those likely to go?
[23:10:04]
BARBARA MCQUADE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yeah, when you notice he talks tough when he`s out of the courtroom. In the courtroom is very much a different story, didn`t testify, you know so much for going medieval and making this the misdemeanor from hell. He didn`t testify, because in a courtroom, the truth matters. And he knows he can`t just go in there and use his usual bluster. There`s a penalty if people tell lies under oath in a courtroom.
And so the judge in this case, must sentence Steve Bannon to at least 30 days in jail, so he will serve that much the most, he could serve is one year on each of the counts, there are two, you could stack them and could make that up to two years.
As for an appeal, the judge in this case, in my view, properly rejected, frivolous — privileges that Steve Bannon wanted to rely on, arguing that executive privilege was an issue here, completely baseless. He was not an employee of the Justice Department at the time. And the thing that he did so different from everyone else is he did not show up at the time appointed for the hearing. He did not show up, he did not produce any documents. And so his failures — it`s complete failure to do that, I think would belie any sort of executive privilege. So the statistics say 90% of all convictions are affirmed on appeal, I see no reason why this one shouldn`t follow that same route.
MENENDEZ: I mean, Ryan, and this is all playing out as the 1/6 committee`s investigation continues. There has been some cooperation with the Justice Department. What are you watching for in the weeks ahead?
REILLY: Yeah, I mean, I overall, a lot of these cases are going to grind down. I think we`re going to have a bit of a pause from the January 6 committee, their next public hearings aren`t going to be until September, we might have some news that`ll dribble out before that. But meanwhile, this Justice Department train just keeps on chugging, it`s going to continue, it`s going to be — it`s going to be a very slow process in many ways. Although many would argue that for the Justice Department and for the giant bureaucracy, like the FBI, and for the DOJ that this is a relatively quick pace. But I mean, there`s just, you know, hundreds of these cases more to come. There`s hundreds of people who have been identified already to the FBI, who haven`t yet been prosecuted, just slam dunk cases, that there`s really no reasonable doubt that it`s them, especially considering all the evidence that the Justice Department has access to that online (inaudible).
You know, just today we saw a guilty plea, actually, from the online personality known as Baked Alaska, 60 days back, he was telling a judge that he was innocent of the crime that he was charged with, and that he was going to plead guilty anyway, and the judge wouldn`t let him move forward.
Today, actually, we were supposed to hear on a public fly, what was going to proceed in the case, but actually, someone was live streaming it. So the judge cut off public access. But ultimately, we learned afterwards is that this individual pleaded guilty. There was another individual who was found guilty by a jury this week. There are two jury trials going on in that federal courthouse. And this was an individual who was charged with going inside the Capitol on January 6, and that was a, you know, a plan that he made. He climbed up the wall. He tried to explain to the jury that back home in Tennessee, lots of people climb up things, that didn`t go over well with the jury. And evidently because they turned around a verdict on that a felony count just as quickly as this — that jury turned around their verdict in his misdemeanor case. Both cases were about two or three hours and there you go, guilty.
MENENDEZ: Barbara, I wonder from your vantage point how the committee did last night in terms of laying out an argument that could potentially lead to criminal charges?
MCQUADE: I thought they disclosed some very important facts here that I think tend to support Donald Trump`s criminal intent that could be useful for a number of charges, but in particular, the charge of obstruction of an official proceeding, that proceeding is the joint session of Congress, where they are meeting to certify the vote. And we now know that Donald Trump in the words of Adam Kinzinger, didn`t fail to take action. He chose not to take action. And in fact, during times when people were pleading with him to take a call from the Pentagon, or call up the National Guard, or at least go on TV or send a tweet calling off the mob, instead, he is there calling Rudy Giuliani and calling senators to try to get them to take advantage of this opportunity to delay the vote.
And so if you have a wrongful purpose here, trying to subvert the proper outcome of the election, and you take action to interfere with an official proceeding, delaying the proceeding, that is sufficient evidence for obstruction of an official proceeding, and I thought the evidence that the committee laid out last night advanced the ball on that particular charge.
MENENDEZ: Jeremy, your colleagues at the Times writes, “at a minimum, the committee`s hearings have created a backdrop to the early maneuvering around the 2024 campaign that prevents — presents challenges for Mr. Trump among independents and Republicans who might want a new face and a more forward-looking candidate.” Talk to me, Jeremy about the hearing`s potential impact on 2022 and beyond?
[23:15:06]
PETERS: So I hear two things when I talk to people. One is that there are still a number of Republicans who couldn`t quite fathom voting for Trump a third time, after everything that we`ve learned from these committee hearings, and regardless of all of the punditry that says Americans aren`t paying attention. They are in polls show, in fact, that Republicans are saying that they`ve actually learned things new that they didn`t learn before from these hearings.
So I think there may be a small number of those people. But let`s face it, all of our presidential elections are decided on a knife`s edge these days, and that really matters. That said, I think that you look at Trump`s stranglehold on the Republican Party. And the fact that Ron DeSantis might be rising in the polls, he may have something like 25% support, Trump`s support has waned somewhat. It`s, however, remained consistent since January 6, that if you ask most Republicans, they will say they are Trump Republicans first before they are Republicans who are loyal to the GOP. And I don`t think we can overlook that. He remains the strongest figure in the Republican Party. This is his nomination to lose. And no matter how many columns in newspapers, like the ones that we read every day might be written about his grip weakening. We`ve seen those stories written many times before, and they`ve often been wrong.
MENENDEZ: Barb, I`ve got about 20 seconds left, but I got to get you in on this, what you make of the Secret Service agents who are involved in the investigation now lawyering up?
MCQUADE: Yeah, you know, I don`t fault anyone for seeking legal representation when they find themselves at the subject of an investigation. But it does suggest to me that there are concerned about more than just missing text messages that they`re concerned about their own criminal liability. And so, you know, sometimes where there`s smoke, there`s fire.
MENENDEZ: Jeremy Peters, Ryan Reilly, Barbara McQuade, thank you all.
Coming up, a presidential case of COVID calls for a checkup with one of our favorite physicians. Dr. Vin Gupta is standing by.
And later, the ruptured political relationship between the former President and Vice President drew a new face today. They are both in Arizona tonight. And so are we. The 11th Hour just getting underway on Friday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:22:18]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ASHISH JHA, WHITE HOUSE COVID COORDINATOR: It`s great to see the President doing better. He`s doing better because he is vaccinated, he is boosted. He`s getting treatments.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: White House COVID Coordinator Dr. Ashish Jha, saying though his recovery from COVID may take time, President Biden is improving. The White House says he is keeping a busy schedule, posting this image of him speaking by phone with his national security team this morning. And leader with his top economic team telling them, he sounds worse than he feels.
We welcome back Dr. Vin Gupta, Critical Care Pulmonologist and Faculty Member at the University of Washington Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation. Dr. Gupta always good to see you. The White House`s physician warn today that some symptoms still lingering. Is that to be expected?
DR. VIN GUPTA, PULMONOLOGIST AND CRITICAL CARE DOCTOR: Alicia, good evening. Great to see you. It is, and it`s encouraging to hear that he`s doing better. He looks like he is active, at least, and is able to participate work, he does look a little fatigued. So you should rest. The President`s watching, you should rest. But he`s able to talk in full sentences at least. He`s sounds like his oxygen levels are normal at baseline. And so those are all very reassuring signs. A dry cough sounds like he`s getting an Albuterol inhaler totally makes sense. Our lungs can get constricted a bit if we`re fighting off a respiratory infection. So that might get tighter, albuterol can help.
So everything here is as normal. For your viewers just — as we`re entering in the next few months cold and flu season, have — one of these oximeters on hand, I know we`ve talked about this, Alicia, if you`re feeling unwell, put this oximeter on, do walk up the stairs, your heart rate should go up, but your oxygen levels should remain roughly the same. If it doesn`t, if it drops significantly, that tells you something`s wrong, you should go talk to your medical provider.
MENENDEZ: Dr. Gupta, your note about if the President is listening that note from you to rest, it brings me to something I wanted to talk about, which is the sort of delicate balance that the White House is up against, where they both want to protect confidence, show that the President is recovering. In doing that they are showing a lot of him continuing to work and I wonder what you make of that?
GUPTA: You know, I see what they`re doing. I agree with you, there is that tension there that we want to project confidence. It`s reassuring to see the President doing better and recovering. And yet I think it`s important for the President at age 79 otherwise fairly healthy to say you know what, I`m going to take it easy because even though I`m double boosted, how on packs loaded, I should be taking rest as should you if his fellow American is in that same situation down the road. So I do think it`s OK to message on rest and to actually, live by example in that fashion but I understand that they`re in a difficult spot.
[23:25:08]
MENENDEZ: So the country dealing with Coronavirus, especially, you know, the BA.4, BA.5 variance, you also have the country dealing with the spread of monkey pox. Talk to me about how prepared we are for this new challenge?
GUPTA: So, on monkeypox and I`d love to talk about the winter when we`re dealing with all these threats at the same time, maybe in a surge capacity. But monkeypox right now, Alicia, it`s really hard for individuals that test positive, or who may have been exposed to develop a treatment plan if they needed or if they`re already positive and are suffering. Those that are actually infected with monkeypox, this can be a debilitating illness, it`s very serious, not the same risk as COVID-19, where we think close transmission, literally physical contact with an individual is what`s necessary for transmission. So rest assured, we`re not dealing with any other pandemic.
Having said that, there is a medication here, Alicia, that`s difficult to access outside of large medical centers. It`s called TPOXX for short. It`s under compassionate use, meaning you have to be in a clinical trial for the CDC to actually get access to it. A lot of bureaucracy, a lot of paperwork, I`d like to see if we can make it easier for people to access that therapy to help people now not in a few months when maybe it`s fully approved.
To go back to quickly to COVID preparation for the winter, Alicia. This is where we really need to think every state, every governor has the ability to make it easier for their citizens to access the care they need by making sure telehealth services are easily available. Right now, it`s only possible in 12 states in the country, for state — for medical providers out of state to provide care to their patients, to their citizens in state which is crazy. We should have a driver`s license paradigm for medical licenses, any physician, any nurse, any mental health provider can practice medicine in a virtual care environment across all 50 States if they have a valid medical license like driver`s licenses.
We also need to be revisiting, Alicia, especially for those that are higher risk, the duration of therapy for packs limit. The big question for President Biden`s physicians is that day five does he started an additional course of tax with it because he`s higher risk. You`ll remember to Dr. Fauci completed one course had rebound started a second course that was the President`s position in an abundance of caution. I`d want him on 10 days (inaudible).
MENENDEZ: Dr. Vin Gupta, always keeping us focused on the big questions. Thank you so much for being with us.
Coming up, with the newest revelations of January 6, still sinking in. Two leading characters hit the campaign trail for opposing candidates, when the 11th Hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:32:16]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You are going to elect a truly great woman who I`ve gotten to know very well, Kari Lake, as your next governor.
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Karrin Taylor Robson is the clear conservative choice for Republicans in Arizona.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MENENDEZ: The former president and his former running mate at dueling rallies in Arizona stumping for two rival candidates in the state`s upcoming GOP primary for governor. The race has become an all-out battle over what it means to be authentically Republican. Case in point, Trump back to Kari Lake, has called Pence back candidate Karrin Taylor Robson, a rhino for not fully embracing Trump`s stolen election lie.
Following it all for us is NBC`s Vaughn Hillyard. He`s in the town of Prescott Valley, Arizona, where Trump just took the stage at Kari Lake`s rally. Vaughn how much does a Pence endorsement versus a Trump endorsement matter to voters there? What are you hearing?
VAUGHN HILLYARD, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Alicia, I actually been talking to advisors to Karrin Taylor Robson for the last several months here. And there were conversations in which there were questions, would have Mike Pence endorsement be helpful here in the state of Arizona, among Republican voters ultimately, about 11 days here before the August 2 primary. The former Vice President showed up on the campaign trail alongside Karrin Taylor Robson. But also Governor Doug Ducey, who is outgoing governor who of course, caught the scorn of Donald Trump when he`s certified Joe Biden`s election win here in the state of Arizona. And I think he was telling right after Pence exited the campaign trail here and shortly before Trump flew in for this rally taking place right now.
Pence put out a tweet he has been hesitant to go toe to toe with Donald Trump on the campaign trail. In fact, today is the first time he`s really done so. And in Pence`s tweet, he said, “If the Republican Party allows itself to become consumed by yesterday`s grievances, we will lose.” And I got to tell you, Alicia, you`re at the rally tonight with Trump with his back candidates for governor, U.S. Senate and Secretary of State Attorney General so much of the focus has been the 2020 election. The choice is clear. Now it comes down to whether Republican voters in Arizona choose the Pence path or the Trump path.
MENENDEZ: Vaughn, I`m curious, you have been to a lot of these rallies over the years, sort of what you make of what you`re watching tonight?
HILLYARD: You know, Kari Lake just took the stage. She was a longtime local news anchor here who evolved into an election nine conspiracy theorist candidate for governor and there`s a real likelihood that she is the nominee for governor but then becomes the governor and wins the general election here. And she just stood up on stage next to Donald Trump and said that she hopes that superman comes back and comes back soon, of course, referring to Donald Trump.
[23:35:10]
There is one individual that I did see, though, earlier today, when we`re talking about what is the coalition that takes on Donald Trump look like, that`s hasn`t over the last six years, really ever galvanized into much but earlier it was not Ducey, it was Pence. It was also speaker Rusty Bowers. Take a listen to part of my conversation with Bowers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE REP. RUSTY BOWERS (R-AZ): Arizona is a battleground that it will be all across the country. And this is just pre-staging for what will happen in other states. I want options. And Mike Pence is one fantastic option for me to kick that tire and see what the motors like.
HILLYARD: Are you going to win your reelection?
BOWERS: We`re going to kick it right to the end. We`ll see what Mr. Trump has been able to do. But he`s dropped a lot of bombs on our state, and I guess that`s important to him to get into local races down at the legislative level.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILLYARD: Alicia, of course, Bowers is also facing a Trump back challenger. And the question is, can some of these non-Trump back candidates win here in their Republican primaries on August 2. Alicia.
MENENDEZ: All right, as always, our thanks to Vaughn Hillyard.
With us tonight, Maria Teresa Kumar, the President and CEO of Voto Latino. She is also an MSNBC Contributor, Tim Miller, Contributor to the Bulwark and former Communications Director for Jeb Bush, he also wrote a new book, “Why We Did It.”
Tim, talk to me — because I think you understand this electorate well, who in Arizona, is voting for a candidate who was backed by Mike Pence, over a candidate who was backed by Donald Trump?
TIM MILLER, THE BULWARK CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, Alicia, I think it`ll be interesting to find out in about 11 days. You know, this is basically we have running here is that as a diet Maga versus ultra-Maga, right? And I think it`s important to understand the two different categories here. There`s nobody really, the Robson candidacy is not one of anti-Donald Trump`s so to speak, she won`t even go so far as to say that the Joe Biden`s election was legitimate. She just says that it was unfair that he won, right? So it`s a little more muted than the full election hysteria you get from Kari Lake.
And so their theory of the case is that we can kind of walk this line, and we can pick up the 5% to 10%, maybe 5%, really, of anti-Trump Republicans, and we`ll get them. And then we can get maybe the — about a third of the party, maybe even as much as 40% that likes Donald Trump still, but it`s kind of ready to move on. The Bulwark we have this — we have a podcast called the Focus Group. We talked to Maga voters, and you see that it`s about, you know, 1/3 of the party, they stay still like Trump, they`re ready to move on.
And so then the question is, can you get over the hump, right? Can you draw in any of Trump voters? Who might go with you, because you like Doug Ducey, or because some local issues, I think that we`ve seen that be very hard for these candidates to do, they`re really only two states, Georgia and Colorado, my home state where I`m at right now. The only examples we`ve seen so far with these, you know, more diet Maga candidates have won primaries. And so I`m skeptical that it`s going to work in Arizona. And I think if you look at the split screen you see right now there`s Donald Trump rally that looks like a monster truck rally, versus a much more staid kind of event that was, those being held by Robson.
MENENDEZ: Yeah, Maria, I don`t have to tell you, a part of the reason I wanted to talk about you, as we watched what happened in Arizona, during the presidential election, we saw young Latinos, many of whom you work to organize and to mobilize, come out and vote for now, President Biden in part, as a swing back to the xenophobia that we heard from former President Trump as he takes the stage tonight with a lot of the same rhetoric. How do you see all of this playing out in the general?
MARIA TERESA KUMAR, VOTO LATINO PRESIDENT AND CEO: First of all, I think that Arizona, the reason that it has turned into a purple state is because of the mobilization at the ground level by young Latinos who have led it in it. It was a whiplash effect of first Jan Brewer and then Sheriff Arpaio and then finally, Donald Trump going into the White House. So this is long time and coming with young Latinos.
And if it is Lake, that is at the top of the ticket for the governor`s nothing is going to galvanize them more. Take this, Alicia, we`re expecting an additional 80,000 youth to turn 18 since the last election, for this midterm, that`s opportunity and the energy that you`re feeling is oftentimes not just about policy, but more importantly, it`s about making sure that they feel protected and they`re protecting their family. That`s what that vote is.
What I`m seeing when I look at Pence though is that he`s trying to break the fever of the Maga Trump. And that is one of the reasons why you`re seeing more Republicans coming forth. Just last week he was on Capitol Hill, and he got it — he got applause from Texas Chip Roy and other people started applauding him as if he was being one telling the truth about what happened on January 6 commission when he was actually telling what exactly happened but more importantly, we`re seeing these different individuals coming out of the woodwork in the Republican party.
[23:40:08]
And, you know, Pence may not be someone that I`m aligned with. But if he can break that mag fever and start communicating to Republicans that they have alternatives, that`s actually great, not just for the Republican Party, but that`s great for the country. Because we all know that when Donald Trump is endorsing a candidate, we`re talking about someone who`s misogynistic, or someone who`s racist, who has authoritarian tendencies, who does not play in the Democratic sandbox. And when I say democratic, I`m talking about little D democracy. And so it`s really important that Pence is out there talking about this alternative for Republicans.
MENENDEZ: Tim, let`s talk a little bit more about that alternative. And I want to go back to something you were talking about Sarah Longwell doing these focus groups, she told the Washington Post, not a single participant who voted for Trump in 2020 wanted him to run again in 2024. That echoes what you said, and then said, “They think the hearings are stupid, and they like Donald Trump. But they`re making a political calculation about who can win.” I mean, all three of us have watched focus groups, we know how they go, how sometimes it actually can`t be extrapolated out to a bigger thing that is happening in public. But I wonder if that matches what you`re hearing more broadly? And if that is what you were hearing, not calculus from Republican voters, how then that comports with what we`re seeing from institutional Republicans?
MILLER: Yeah, you definitely don`t want to over analyze, like one or two focus groups, but they`re their interesting, it`s an insight into the mindset of these folks. And I do think that we`ve kind of been here before with Trump, right? Where you get to a period where even his own supporters are kind of sick of him. And they see that, you know, the party lost the midterms, you know, you saw, we saw this back in 2018. You know, maybe it`s time, maybe he`s just a little too divisive. I like him, but it might be time to move in a different direction. That`s what they think.
But eventually, they sort of come back into his arms because of negative polarization, right? They these folks are mostly driven by hatred for the left, you know, hatred for immigrants, in some cases, hatred for the media, and so they get driven back to his arm. So will that happen again, after these hearings were off? I think that`s an open question. But I do think it`s real right now. And there`s a moment. And I think that it`s true that Mike Pence is getting out there and trying to sort of test the waters to see if he can pull some of these people away.
Personally, I`d like to see him try a little harder. You know, I think this is if we`ve learned from the last six years. It`s like you need to seize on these moments to try to hurt Donald Trump and try to take them on, you know, and Mike Pence sent that tweet that Vaughn mentioned, but it`s like in the passive voice. He doesn`t even mention Trump`s name. You know, I would like to see for Mike Pence testifying in front of the 1/6 committee and trying to put a stake through his heart. And I think that might hurt Mike Pence`s in the long term, but it would help the Republican Party in the long-term. And unfortunately, there just haven`t been any courageous Republican leaders willing to do that. And Mike Pence is kind of the latest example, someone who`s putting their toe in the water without actually, you know, having the courage to really do the right thing and try to take Trump out.
MENENDEZ: Maria Teresa Kumar, Tim Miller, thank you.
Coming up, the events leading up to and throughout the insurrection are called a stain on our history last night, we`re going to ask historian Douglas Brinkley, how to prevent it from getting worse, when the 11th Hour continues.
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REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): Donald Trump`s conduct on January 6, was a supreme violation of his oath of office and a complete dereliction of his duty to our nation. It is a stain on our history. It is a dishonor to all those who have sacrificed in died in service of our democracy.
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MENENDEZ: Last night`s January 6 committee hearing displayed just what the former president was doing, or more accurately not doing as the attack on the Capitol was underway. And the continued revelations of Trump`s bad behavior are said to be having an impact on his brand.
Joining us now, Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley. He`s also a History Professor at Rice University. Douglas, just how significant was last night`s hearing, can you help put it into historical context for us?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, it was incredibly damning about Donald Trump`s inaction, his willingness to allow the U.S. Capitol be attacked. Here`s nobody who couldn`t watch these committee hearings and not think that he was an accomplice to the crimes that occurred.
The question is, where does this lead us? I mean, Trump may be dented from this, but he very well, if you have a Liz Cheney, say lose in August doesn`t get the Republican nod. And in Wyoming, where we`re in Trump maybe says he`s running again for President in October. It`s more open warfare to come. But it was a nobody that sane could say that Donald Trump is not guilty of do nothingness and have utter contempt for the U.S. Capitol and in a reckless just concern for people`s lives.
MENENDEZ: Douglas, as you and I are speaking there is of course a split screen going on in Arizona. You have the former president, the former vice president down there, rallying for competing candidates, how unusual is it for a president, vice president relationship to go south from absolutely unwavering loyalty to total animosity, the way that Trump and Pence`s has?
[23:50:14]
BRINKLEY: Yeah, you really don`t see anything like it. I mean, you go back to what happened in 1912, Theodore Roosevelt created a third party, the Bull Moose Party, to go after William Howard Taft. But in this case, I mean, you`re looking at Arizona and your reporting spin was interesting. I`m not feeling a lot of kineticism with Trump or Pence there. I mean, I know that it`s hard to see just on a video clip, but I`m not sure that Trump rallies are going to have this appeal like they had four years ago when he was such an oddball figure. Right now many people see him as a criminal as some sort of mafioso, somebody who has a totalitarian instinct about them that`s trying to undermine our democracy.
Pence has been very feckless for four years, obedient to Donald Trump. Yes, he`s come out as a — as the same person in a meeting that Joe Biden won the election, but neither of them seem to me to be the future of the Republican Party. But, you know, they certainly are the two that are going to matter here for the midterms. And in they`re the two big surrogates of the party at this point.
MENENDEZ: And they certainly see themselves as the future of the Republican Party. I`m sure you saw this stunning reporting from Axios that Trump has some plan, should he manage to get back into the White House, “Trump allies are working on plans that will potentially strip layers at the Justice Department, including the FBI and reaching into national security, intelligence, State Department and the Pentagon sources close to the former president say.” I mean, your reaction to that, and then is there any historical precedent for any of this?
BRINKLEY: Everybody needs to read the Axios story. I mean, it is stunning, what it`s asserting, and that is that Donald Trump really believes in the deep state and wants to flush all of these bureaucrats, civil servants, gut, our U.S. government and have it down to only 50,000 employees. It is nutty, and if it`s a serious reporting, it tells you that Trump and his associates really are trying to do a coup. And you have to read it to believe it. It`s just one of the best pieces of reporting I`ve seen in really a couple of years.
MENENDEZ: I agree, and I think nutty is a pretty kind word to describe it. Douglas Brinkley, as always, thank you so much for being with us.
Coming up, it is the gift that just keeps on giving, when the 11th Hour continues.
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[23:57:24]
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REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): As you can see in this photo, he raised his fist in solidarity with the protesters already amassing at the security gates. Later that day, Senator Hawley fled after those protesters that he helped to rile up stormed the Capitol. See for yourself.
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MENENDEZ: The last thing before we go tonight, “Run Hawley Run.” By now, you`ve probably seen this video of Senator Josh Hawley running from the rioters who stormed the Capitol, after very famously riling them up earlier in the day with his fist in the air.
Well, the internet did what the internet does and wasted absolutely no time reveling in the absurdity of Hawley`s hypocrisy. Take a look.
The Missouri Republicans panicked exit was also compared by our friend Matt Miller to a panic George Costanza on Seinfeld and Co-creator of The Office, Michael Schur was reminded of this Michael Scott moment from his hit show. Missouri`s Democratic Party promising to stage a, “Hawlin` Hawley`s 5K race but how did those sitting in the hearing room last night, those who have been seriously contemplating the committee`s evidence for hours react to the Hawley run? Take a look.
Former D.C. police officer Michael Fanone was among those attacked and injured on January 6, he was also in the hearing room last night. It was later asked by Politico what he thought after watching the Hawley video
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MICHAEL FANONE, FORMER OFFICER, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, I mean to be completely honest, to give you my like, the first thoughts that popped into my mind was Josh Hawley is a (bleep).
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MENENDEZ: A rather concise assessment from officer for noon to take us off the air tonight. And this very quick programming note, this weekend on American Voices, I`m going to talk to California Congresswoman Sara Jacobs about her arrest at this week`s abortion rights protests at the Supreme Court and the push to make access to birth control more available. That is American Voices, my show tomorrow night 6 p.m. Eastern right here on MSNBC. And on that note, I wish you a very good night from all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News. Thank you for staying up late and have a great weekend.