Updated
Summary
How seriously is the Justice Department investigating Donald Trump`s actions as part of its criminal probe of the 2020 election? A major development occurs in the effort to free Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan from captivity in Russia. Olivia Julianna discusses turning an attack by Congressman Matt Gaetz into an opportunity to raise money for abortion services across the country. The Republican Party`s obsession with tax cuts is examined.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: That`s the best ways to connect with me personally, but you can also go @AriMelber and answer our question, where does Dr. Oz live?
A little bit of fun to end the hour. That does it for us.
THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID is up next.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on THE REIDOUT:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Do you think that he may be prosecuted over his actions?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I mean, that`s just ridiculous for me to comment over what some grand jury may be looking at. And I don`t see anything to prosecute him over, but…
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Lindsay doesn`t think so, but maybe, just maybe, Merrick Garland will come to believe that Trump should be prosecuted. And we`re starting to see the signs.
I will also explain why Republicans, just like Lindsey Graham, are so willing to tolerate the party`s rapid descent into fascism. I will give you a hint. It`s a word that starts with “T” and ends in “axes.”
Also tonight, a major development in the effort to free Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan from captivity in Russia.
And I will be joined by Olivia Julianna. She`s the amazing young woman who turned a disgusting attack by Matt Gaetz into an opportunity to raise money for abortion services across the country.
We begin tonight with the new signs that the Justice Department is moving the ball in its investigation into the January 6 insurrection. The House January 6 Committee has spent the summer laying out its laser-focused investigation into the former president`s actions leading up to the attack on the Capitol.
And while these hearings have been blockbuster and widely watched, if you found yourself frustrated, asking, where`s the accountability, you are not alone.
But it`s important to just keep in your mind alongside your work worries or where your kids socks are or what date your credit card is due and all the other real-life stuff rattling around in there, alongside fears of the end of democracy and whether your state now owns your body, that the way to understand these hearings is to remember that this committee is part of a legislative body. It cannot prosecute anybody.
All it can do is investigate what happened on January 6, 2021, record it for history, which is important, and recommend changes in law or policy to prevent another insurrection, or worse.
And, on that score, what we`re hearing is the work of the committee already informing talks in the Senate to try to reform the arcane Electoral Count Act of 1887 to ensure that no future president could try to pressure their vice president, the way Trump tried to, to get him or her to invent fake powers to undo an election.
Senator Susan Collins and Joe Manchin have taken up an effort to overhaul the law in the Senate, leading a bipartisan group of 16 senators.
And I can just see the faces that you all are making. And please know that some members of the January 6 Committee are also not impressed by those generally ineffective senators` efforts and perhaps would like to go even further.
The committee has also taken great steps to remind us that this was in fact an attempted insurrection, highlighting another option. Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, the Insurrection Clause, disqualifies a person from holding office if, having taken an oath to the Constitution, they engaged in insurrection or rebellion.
Then there`s option three, criminal referrals to the Justice Department. Vice Chair Liz Cheney has indicated that there could be multiple referrals regarding the former president. And Attorney General Merrick Garland was asked about that in his exclusive interview with NBC`s Lester Holt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think that`s totally up to the committee. We will have the evidence that the committee has presented and whatever evidence it gives us. I don`t think that the nature of how they style the manner in which information is provided is of particular significance from any legal point of view.
We have our own investigation, pursuing through the principles of prosecution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Fast-forward 24 hours and a lot of what we have heard from the committee and what the Justice Department is pursuing now is falling into place.
NBC News has confirmed that the Justice Department is looking into the former president`s actions in its criminal probe into January 6 and efforts to overturn the 2020 election, trying to find out what he told his inner circle about efforts to install pro-Trump electors in states that President Biden had won and trying to encourage Mike Pence to recognize those fake electors.
NBC has also learned that investigators obtained phone records of former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows back in April, along with other top Trump aides. “The Washington Post” first reported these developments, noting that the DOJ investigation appears focused on two potential tracks, the first, seditious conspiracy and conspiracy to obstruct a government proceeding.
And the second is potential fraud connected to the effort to submit those fake electors and to corrupt the Justice Department, meaning that quite a lot of what we have heard in these public committee hearings is starting to converge with the DOJ investigation.
[19:05:04]
For example, Greg Jacob, former chief counsel to Pence, testified to the committee last month that coup memo lawyer John Eastman`s proposals to have Pence overthrow the election likely violated the Electoral Count Act. And multiple reports indicated that Jacob testified before a grand jury recently.
Meanwhile, today, the Justice Department obtained a new search warrant to access the contents of John Eastman`s phone, which was seized by the FBI last month. Not long after, federal agents also searched the home of former assistant Attorney General Jeffrey Clark, also involved with encouraging those alternate electors.
Now, while the Justice Department`s scrutiny of the former president is for now not a criminal investigation of Trump itself, it sure does raise the prospect of something extraordinary, as no other president has been charged with a crime in all of American history.
And joining me now is NBC News presidential historian Michael Beschloss, along with Jill Wine-Banks, former assistant Watergate special prosecutor and an MSNBC legal analyst.
Thank you both for being here.
And I`m going to start with you, Jill Wine-Banks, just on the knowing what about presidents and prosecution, and the fact that Nixon came real close to getting prosecuted, probably would have been prosecuted…
MICHAEL BESCHLOSS, NBC NEWS PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Should have been.
REID: … had he not been pardoned by Gerald Ford. So — right, he could have been.
BESCHLOSS: Should have been.
REID: When you — I agree with you on that.
When you look, Jill, at what the Justice Department seems to be looking at, and also listening to Merrick Garland be as animated as a Merrick Garland can be, because he`s not super animated.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: But he was — I guess that was his version of animated.
How likely do you think it would be that they really will investigate Donald Trump himself for crimes related to January 6?
JILL WINE-BANKS, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: I now believe that it is happening, not just that it is likely to happen. I believe that is the right thing.
Michael and I had an exchange today on Twitter. And I think we both agree that Nixon should have been indicted. I fought for that when I was a special prosecutor while he was president. I do not believe that there is anything in the Constitution that exempts him, any president, from being indicted.
And then, certainly, the day he resigned, I went back to Leon Jaworski and argued that he should be indicted right then, when he was just an ordinary citizen. Donald Trump is an ordinary citizen, and is committing crimes right now.
And he must be stopped. I think that, had Nixon been stopped, if he had not just been an unindicted co-conspirator, which is a very powerful step — I`m — it was very important. It let us use the evidence of his tapes at trial, which we couldn`t have if he wasn`t a co-conspirator.
But if he had been, one, there would have been a precedent and we wouldn`t be dithering around arguing about, should it be done or shouldn`t it? And, secondly, maybe, just maybe, Donald Trump would have gotten a message from that he couldn`t commit crimes and get away with it.
And maybe he wouldn`t have tried to take down our democracy. Maybe he wouldn`t have attempted a coup. Maybe he wouldn`t have used the big lie to rile up a crowd to try to interfere with Congress and the vice president. I think it was important, that we should have done it back then. I think it was wrong that Ford pardoned him.
And I`m sympathetic to Ford`s motive. I don`t think he acted out of any bad motives. I think he meant well in trying to protect America. But this is the result of nonaction back then. And let`s not make the same mistake twice.
REID: You know, and Adam Kinzinger took that same argument that I know both of you agree with, because we follow you on Twitter, Michael Beschloss.
So we know — we know that you agree wholeheartedly with what you just — what we just heard.
BESCHLOSS: I follow the two of you, too, sure.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: See, listen, we are like a mutual following on Twitter admiration society.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: Absolutely.
But here`s Adam Kinzinger basically making that same point, but then taking that point forward. Here`s Adam Kinzinger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): My belief is this. We never want to get to a position in a country where we prosecute last administrations, because that`s what failed republics, failed democracies do.
But if a failed coup, and an obvious coup attempt, and a president that didn`t just choose not to act, but willfully watched to see where the mob would go for three hours on January 6, if he is not held accountable through law, I actually fear that that is a far worse precedent than anything else.
If we just wash this under the rug and say, for the sake of the country, let`s put this aside, there is going to be somebody else, whether it`s Donald Trump in 2024 or somebody else somewhere down the line, that recognizes that as the floor of their behavior and pushes even more. And we can`t survive that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: And, Michael, to that point, Donald Trump was making a speech in Washington this week where he talked about essentially a purge of all bureaucrats that he doesn`t like in Washington…
[19:10:02]
BESCHLOSS: Right.
REID: … essentially saying he would like the power to purge governors that he doesn`t like.
We have already seen him use the National Guard to clear a path for him to go and hold a Bible for a photo-op and use military might and force to do that, and displaying the military in a way in front of the Lincoln Memorial in June of 2020 during the George Floyd protests, as sort of a show of military force. Look at that.
That is the way Donald Trump thinks about power. And so I would like you to take that same thing forward, what Jill said and what Adam Kinzinger said, because this is like not a theoretical threat. It`s a real threat. Donald Trump is just one of the people who could do it.
BESCHLOSS: Total threat.
Donald Trump is a would-be dictator, and he has been for seven years. He`s given us all sorts of signals that he would grab as much power as possible, to the point that it is fascist.
You were talking, Joy, about Trump promising a purge if he becomes president again. Who did the most famous purge in recent history? That was Stalin. Did not work out too well for either his country or the people who were purged. Millions of people were killed, which I`m not predicting, but who on earth would even say such a thing in any case?
Just about the worst thing that any president of the United States can do is to try to use his power to wreck our democracy and take total power that goes outside of the Constitution. That`s what Donald Trump did on the 6th of January.
He was at the center of this coup d`etat blueprint. No president in American history — and there have been some really bad ones, including, as Jill knows…
REID: Yes.
BESCHLOSS: … Richard Nixon — no one even attempted to come close to doing that.
So, if he does that, and gets away with that, what does that say to him if he, God forbid, comes back in 2025 to the White House, or another president who says, gee, Donald Trump got away with it, Richard Nixon got away with something less, so I`m just calling to see if I can mobilize the 101st Airborne to intimidate people in American society who do what I want?
In that case, we would have a lawless society. It`s absolutely essential that at least an indictment of Donald Trump be investigated. And I think the last 24 hours is nothing but good news.
REID: Yes, I mean, I think about Ron DeSantis, who is basically Trump with a brain, but who also has a mind to literally control what teachers say, what businesses can say…
BESCHLOSS: Absolutely. It`s fascistic.
REID: … who wants to have utter control over speech, think about him with that same power.
I did want to ask you, Michael, about just the historical prospect of the United States taking that step and indicting a president. The great Lester Holt did ask Merrick Garland about what that would do in tearing apart the country.
BESCHLOSS: Right.
REID: And, in this case, tearing apart the country means there`s a part of the country that is armed and deeply fascistic. There are Proud Boys and Oath Keepers still out there who essentially are willing to do violence for Trump.
What do you think would happen in the country if Trump were indicted?
BESCHLOSS: Well, I think it`s going to make a lot of people angry.
And I think we are already getting close to the edge of civil war. And this would make it worse. But — and I`m so glad Lester asked that question, because, as you know, a lot of people are saying that. It`s not the attorney general`s job to be a political pundit and say, gee, if I indict this guy, this group out in Wyoming might be angry, and they might be violent. That`s not his job.
His job is to enforce the law and pursue justice wherever it leads. And it makes me cry that our country has come to the point where an indictment of an ex-president, even if we find that it`s very much deserved, could take us over the edge of civil war.
But the alternative to that is to have an attorney general saying we`re going to let criminals run wild, especially in the White House, because, if we prosecute them, we might have political problems. That would be terrible.
REID: Yes, indeed.
And last point to you, Jill.
We learned through audio evidence that the former Defense Secretary Chris Miller has said Trump never did order National Guard, didn`t order troops. Again, he ordered National Guard to help him…
BESCHLOSS: Another lie.
REID: … bully — exactly — to bully people, citizens against their First Amendment rights, but he didn`t order National Guard at that time.
Andrew Weissmann has said he thinks that might be another potential element of a crime, that Trump lied about it, that he said in his speech he tried to give himself the excuse that he did order the National Guard. That appears to be a lie.
Do you think that that could factor into the DOJ`s investigation in any way?
WINE-BANKS: I am not so sure that lying to the public can ever be a crime, even though it should be, and even though it is an impeachable offense.
It is one of the things that the Watergate prosecutors gave in the road map to impeachment to the House committee was lies by Richard Nixon. But the failure to act is a dereliction of duty. And I think that that is something that is worth looking at.
[19:15:04]
I think, as you point out, he used the National Guard for his own benefit in a wrongful way. And he did not use them to protect his vice president, to protect any member of Congress. The fact that members of Congress are forgiving him and forgetting what he did to them is shocking to me.
And I think all of these things come together in a — one massive conspiracy that includes many tentacles.
REID: Yes.
WINE-BANKS: I will have to wear my octopus pin for you next, because it has so many tentacles.
REID: I need to know what pin you`re wearing now, though, before we go, Jill. What`s the pin?
WINE-BANKS: Oh, whoops. it`s fallen. But it`s Lady Justice. Let me get it back.
REID: Lady Justice.
WINE-BANKS: Yes, lady Justice.
REID: And I can`t — we…
WINE-BANKS: Justice is now acting. And I`m very happy.
REID: I adore both of you.
And I`m going to have to have you both come back, because I want to talk about this question of, could this man, Donald Trump, ever credibly take the oath of office? Because the words of that oath are antithetical to everything that he did the first time.
BESCHLOSS: Which he violated.
REID: Which he violated.
(CROSSTALK)
WINE-BANKS: … the crime that says, if he`s convicted of that, it`s automatic he cannot hold office.
Of course…
REID: That…
WINE-BANKS: … the Constitution says the same thing.
REID: Yes.
WINE-BANKS: So, yes, he should not be — and when “The Wall Street Journal” says that he`s not capable of being in office again, that he cannot be trusted…
REID: Yes.
WINE-BANKS: … know that the Republicans are starting to move away.
REID: That`s Rupert Murdoch.
WINE-BANKS: Yes.
REID: That`s Rupert Murdoch. They`re trying to run.
Michael Beschloss, Jill Wine-Banks, cannot think of two better folks to open up the show tonight. Thank you both very much.
Up next on THE REIDOUT: breaking developments in the effort to bring Brittney Griner home, as well as Paul Whelan. And it`s going to mean the first high-level talks between the United States and Russia since the war in Ukraine began.
THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:53]
REID: The Biden administration announced today that it has offered a substantial proposal to Russia to secure the release of WNBA star Brittney Griner and former Marine Paul Whelan, both being held by the Kremlin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: In the coming days, I expect to speak with Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov for the first time since the war began.
I plan to raise an issue that`s a top priority for us, the release of Americans, Paul Whelan and Brittney Griner, who have been wrongfully detained and must be allowed to come home. We put a substantial proposal on the table weeks ago to facilitate the release.
Our governments have communicated repeatedly and directly on that proposal, and I will use the conversation to follow up personally and, I hope, move us toward a resolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: The announcement marks the first time the administration has publicly revealed concrete steps that it has taken to secure the release of the two detained Americans.
And while Secretary of State Tony Blinken did not provide any details on the proposed deal, two sources familiar with the talks tell NBC News that the substantial proposal involves trading Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout, who is serving a 25-year sentence in a U.S. prison.
And in Russia today, Griner was back in a Moscow court, where she testified for the first time in her own defense. The Russians arrested her on drug charges, alleging that she was in possession of cannabis-derived vape cartridges at a Moscow airport in February. If convicted, which, in Russian criminal cases, happens 99 percent of the time, Griner could face 10 years in prison.
In the case of Paul Whelan, he`s been detained in Russia since 2018. He was sentenced to 16 years imprisonment, on charges of espionage, which he has denied.
Joining me now is Julia Ioffe, Washington correspondent for Puck News, and Jonathan Franks, a crisis management consultant and spokesman for the family of Trevor Reed, who was recently released from Russia in a prisoner swap.
And, Mr. Franks, I do want to start with you.
This is Brittney Griner`s legal team responding to discussions of this deal: “Griner`s Russian defense team learned about U.S.` offer from the news. Defense team is not participating in the swap discussions. From the legal perspective, the swap is possible only after the court reaches a verdict. In any case, we would be really happy if Brittney will be able to come home and hope it will be soon.”
What do you read into that statement? And is that accurate, that, essentially, she has to be convicted and sentenced before anything could happen?
JONATHAN FRANKS, FOUNDER, LUCID STRATEGIES: I think it`s theoretically right.
I think it`s the proper way to do things. But this is a country that`s orchestrated and controlled by one man. So, if he wants Ms. Griner to leave, she will leave. And I hope that she does soon, along with Mr. Whelan and also Marc Fogel, who was sentenced to an absurd term earlier this week.
REID: And that is the other thing, is that we don`t hear about Mr. Fogel, Marc Fogel.
We have heard about some of the other folks and obviously Mr. Whelan. Why do you suppose it`s being done so piecemeal? Trevor Reed`s release was individual for — and it was a swap for — it ended up being a prisoner swap.
Fogel isn`t even being brought up. What do you make of sort of the piecemealing of this?
FRANKS: I don`t know.
I — honestly, since last October, we — the Reeds and I had been trying to lobby — we were lobbying for a two-for-two deal. We were surprised when it was the one-for-one deal. And when it was a one-for-one, we hoped it would soon follow with Mr. Whelan and Ms. Griner.
And 91 days later, it looks like we`re kind of heading that direction. And to the president, to Secretary Blinken, I say bravo for that.
REID: Julia, let`s talk about this Viktor Bout.
He was sentenced to 25 years in prison. This is in 2012. He was convicted of selling arms to Colombian rebels, which prosecutors said were intended to kill Americans. He has about five years left on his prison sentence. So it`s not as if he`s got 25 years to serve. This is a pretty bad guy.
What do you make of the fact that this is the ask on Russia`s side, potentially?
JULIA IOFFE, WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK NEWS: We don`t know that this is the ask on Russia`s side, but they have been wanting Viktor Bout back for a long time. He is a notorious arms dealer.
[19:25:02]
And the reason that they were so incensed by Viktor Bout`s arrest is because he was taken not on U.S. soil, but in a third country. And Russia is very upset by that. They don`t think that — they`re saying Russia is not running around taking American nationals in third countries, and neither should you be.
And they have been wanting the DEA to kind of rein itself in, or the U.S. government to rein in the DEA and stop seizing Russian nationals in third countries. That is kind of the crux of the matter for them.
But Viktor Bout is kind of a nasty guy. It took a while to catch him. And I can see why the U.S. government held on to him as long as they did.
REID: I mean, they`re not having to run around, because they`re seizing Americans in their airport.
And, Julia, in the case of Brittney Griner, she`s somebody who was helping them. She is somebody who was there and dedicated to improving and enhancing Russian women`s basketball. Here she is. She testified in court today. Let`s — I just want to play a little bit of — we haven`t heard her for a while. So let`s listen to what she had to say in court.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BRITTNEY GRINER, WNBA PLAYER: We had to use my phone for — and Google Translate for him to be able to tell me a little bit.
There was a lady that was there that they said was an interpreter, but it was more just her telling me, surname, sign, really short words. She didn`t explain the content of the paper. Like, I didn`t know exactly what I was signing. My rights were never read to me. No one explained any of it to me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
REID: And, Julia, I don`t — I`m reluctant to take anything that she says at face value now. She`s a prisoner. And she has to say whatever it takes to try to free herself.
But what do you make of the fact that they did go for this very high- profile detention of somebody like Brittney?
IOFFE: So here`s what I think happened, and this is what I`m gathering from my sources, is that she was — I think this was a routine arrest.
I think the customs — the border agents didn`t know she was. Like, when you go, when you land at Sheremetyevo, this is what happens. You go. You have to put your luggage to the scanner. It`s kind of — it`s a little scary and uncomfortable. It`s very police state-y.
And they saw the vape cartridges. They arrested her. But when — when a foreigner comes in contact with the police, they have to call the FSB. And I think, at that point, they realized that they had such a high-value prisoner.
And, unfortunately, when we have these kinds of swaps, it creates more and more incentive down the line for Russia to keep kidnapping people, so that they can swap — and not just for other prisoners that they want. But, for example, there was the Israeli American woman that they seized in the exact same way as she made to Sheremetyevo airport. It was going through the transit zone.
And they swapped her for property in Jerusalem that the Russian Orthodox Church wanted. So it`s the state basically kidnapping people because they know the U.S. wants its citizens back or Israel wants its citizens back, but Russia doesn`t give a shit.
REID: And last question to you on this, Jonathan.
Well, we`re actually out of time. We`re going to have to have you both back, because this is obviously not going to be over anytime soon.
Jonathan — Ioffe, Jonathan Franks, thank you both very much.
And still ahead: Gen Z abortion rights activist Olivia Julianna joins me to talk about how she has raised more than $300,000 thanks to Matt Gaetz`s disgusting and juvenile trolling.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:28]
REID: Kansas is in abortion island in the Midwestern Plains.
That is because the Kansas Supreme Court back in 2019 ruled that the state`s Constitution protects the right to choose. Did you know that voters in Kansas, viewed as a reliably red state, have repeatedly expressed support for some reproductive rights?
A poll last year found that 60 percent of Kansans opposed making abortion completely illegal. And slightly more than half believe that the Kansas government should not regulate abortion.
So here`s the rub. Kansas voters, who have a primary election Tuesday, are being asked to support or reject an amendment that would explicitly strip the state Constitution of that right, making it easier for the Republican- controlled legislature to further restrict or even outright ban abortion.
And that legislature has been just licking its chops at the prospect. In the spring, a bill was introduced to ban abortion statewide with no exceptions for rape or incest. The timing of this referendum is no accident. Republicans placed it on the primary ballot, because who is super engaged in the dog days of summer? Why, religious fanatic die-hards. That`s who.
And they`re being mobilized by churches across the state. Proponents and opponents of the amendment have been going door to door to get people to turn out, considering that early voting is already under way. After the overturning of Roe, many women and men across the country have been wondering how they can fight back. Well, Tuesday will be the first test.
[19:35:00]
In the meantime, reproductive rights allies living in abortion deserts are working hard to help people find alternative routes, among them, 19-year- old Olivia Julianna of Texas
Olivia called out none other than Matt Gaetz, who`s being investigated for alleged sex trafficking for making — and she accused him of making — or she noted that he made really gross comments about reproductive rights activist.
Gaetz, who has accomplished literally nothing in Congress, except becoming a well-known MAGA troll and being the best friend of a man indicted on multiple counts of sex trafficking, then targeted Olivia personally, because, apparently, he has not developed enough testosterone to become an actual adult man, which might explain his taste in paramours, allegedly.
Now, in response, Olivia announced a fund-raising campaign which has so far raised $300,000 for abortion rights. She even wrote the rather undistinguished congressman a quite classy thank you note.
Olivia Julianna joins me now.
And, Olivia, thank you so much for being here.
Saw the tweets and how viral they went and your responses. And I love my producers, and I was like, can we get her on the show? And thank you for agreeing to come on.
I want to get it out of the way. Your — you have responded on social media to Matt Gaetz` disgusting — I won`t even characterize them, but basically making fun of and putting down women who are abortion rights activists.
And you`re a 19-year-old kid, and he decided to target you. Your thoughts?
OLIVIA JULIANNA, GEN-Z FOR CHANGE: I mean, I`m not necessarily surprised that this is a path that Matt Gaetz would take, considering, since he`s been elected into Congress, his judgment has been questionable, at best.
I`m surprised that he thought that I would just allow him to publicly body- shame me, when I very clearly have a reputation in the past of letting Republican politicians know that kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
REID: Amen. You will not beat Gen Z at the trolling.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: And don`t even try. Leave that — leave your whole generational alone on social.
So, now that we have gotten that out of the way, I do want to talk to you about — I know you`re from Texas. But we`re seeing in Kansas kind of the way that getting rid of Roe has given Republicans the opening to do what their most fanatical part of their base wants, which is ban abortion, potentially with no exceptions.
This — in this case, it`s being put to a vote publicly in the state of Kansas. You have raised a lot of money. Tell us what you plan to do with that money, because this is a time when people need organizing. They need door knockers. They need people to literally be in the faces of folks who might be infrequent voters.
Is that what you intend to do with all this money you`re raising?
JULIANNA: Absolutely.
I want to make it noted that this money is being split amongst 50 abortion funds across the country, especially in states where those services will be needed the most because of restrictive abortion laws.
So this money is going to the people who need it. It`s going to the funds that are going to help people get the health care they need, despite these Republican attacks against reproductive rights. I`m extremely excited that I have been able to use my platform to do something that will genuinely make a tangible difference in people`s lives.
REID: And how much have you raised so far?
JULIANNA: Last I checked, it was $330,000 in the last 48 hours.
REID: That`s really — that`s really dope.
And I called you a kid. I will apologize for that, but you`re a kid to me.
But I wonder, for other young women your age — I mean, you`re a kid to me, right? It`s sad that somebody your age has to think about the state owning your body. But you`re in a state, Texas, where that is what the Supreme Court has said is OK.
What are women, young women, girls, teenagers your age worried the most about?
JULIANNA: I think there`s a lot of risks that come with reproductive health care access, whether it be the criminalization of miscarriages, whether it be people being stripped of their bodily autonomy, or even something as extreme as contraception being under attack.
I think a lot of women across the country are afraid in general of not just their right to an abortion, but their right to simply exist and make decisions about their own body and their own identities.
I will say that I have seen my generation mobilize like no other before, whether it be on social media or marching in the streets or even marching to the ballot box. We saw record vote — we saw record voter turnout in 2020, especially amongst Gen Z.
And with these kinds of attacks coming from Republican politicians, I am more than certain we will see it again come this November.
REID: Because that`s been the thing, is that people are — I see pundits saying, oh, well, the Democrats are going to get wiped out. And that`s just the way it is, because there`s this history and that history.
And I feel like they`re not noticing how angry women of all ages are about the loss of our right to exist as full citizens. Do you see the kind of anger that you think could sustain all the way through November?
JULIANNA: Absolutely, I do. I see it every day on social media.
[19:40:00]
I have platforms on every platform. And I see tens of thousands of women on a daily basis talking about how they are making plans to vote, they are making plans to fight back against these abortion bans and against these oppressive laws that are being put forward.
And I have no doubt whatsoever that they are going to make their voices heard, whether it be in the streets or whether it be in November. And I think that we`re starting to see more and more Republicans, like Matt Gaetz, make these childish attacks because they know that these women are mobilizing across the country, whether it be women who marched back when Roe was first decided upon, or whether it be young women like me, who have been fighting this fight for the last few years as teenagers.
So I think that we`re going to see a lot more people fighting for this than the Republicans are expecting. And I`m quite excited to see that myself.
REID: Amen.
I mean, Alito may want us to all live in the 19th or 18th century, but women ain`t going back to the 19th, 18th century. And, by the way, Matt Gaetz wouldn`t have been effective in those centuries either, because he`s really not good at this whole being a congressman thing.
Olivia Julianna, that`s me, not you. I`m putting that on myself.
Olivia Julianna, thank you very much.
And coming up next: What do you get when you take a three-legged stool and chop off two of the legs? The modern Republican Party. I will explain next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:51]
REID: The composition of the Republican Party is often described as a three-legged stool.
One leg represents the social conservatives, the Christian far right who are obsessed with seizing women`s bodies. The second leg is made up of hawks thirsty for unnecessary wars. And the third would be the fiscal conservatives.
This framing was popularized by the rise of the new right and the election of Ronald Reagan. Things have changed, though, quite a bit since the Reagan era, meaning this stool is still a stool, just rearranged a bit. Yes, one leg still represents the white evangelical Christian fanatics, and another leg still represents the war hawks.
But that third leg is now made up of neofascists and their grievance politics, the people who want hierarchical Christian man rule. But here`s another thing about that stool. No one ever talks about the seat, right? It is an important component. The seat holds it all together. Otherwise, there is no stool.
And that seat at the top is the Republican obsession with tax cuts, the single most important thing for the Republican Party. It`s why Republicans vote Republican, why they consistently show up to vote. It is how they win and why they win.
It`s how they elected a reality TV star riddled with controversy, because, as anti-tax activist Grover Norquist said in 2012, the only thing the Republican Party needed in its next president was enough working digits to handle a pen to sign the precious, the massive tax cuts for the rich.
It`s why you hear all those Republicans saying that, while they didn`t like Trump`s personality, they liked the policies, even though the only policy things that he accomplished in four years were packing the Supreme Court with anti-Roe, but also very corporate and rich-people-friendly judges, a stimulus package that literally handed billion-dollar bags to the airline industry and other corporate welfare recipients, and signing a massive tax cuts so sweet, it made Paul Ryan retire from politics, like the fullest guy at Thanksgiving dinner.
The phenomenon was crystallized even further yesterday in Washington, D.C., when Donald Trump and Mike Pence gave dueling speeches on America`s future. Now, at one Marriott, Trump painted a grim fascism-friendly picture of the nation, a similar sort of speech to his American carnage speech in 2017.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our country is now a cesspool of crime. Our streets are riddled with needles and soaked with the blood of innocent victims.
They want to damage you in any form. But they really want to damage me, so I can no longer go back to work for you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: How not to hide under your bed.
Well, at that other Marriott, you had Pence praising Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I will tell you that I couldn`t be more proud of the record of the Trump/Pence administration.
So I don`t know that our movement is that divided. I don`t — I don`t know that the president and I differ on issues. But we may differ on focus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: OK, what? Proud of the Trump/Pence administration, even after the Trump part of the Trump/Pence administration literally sent armed thugs to hang you? There`s video. We know you saw it, Mike.
It just shows how Pence and his fellow Republicans are willing to overlook anything, even attempts to publicly lynch you, so long as they get the precious, and, no, not a wall. Now, you know they never intended to do that, right? It`s the tax cuts for the uber-rich.
And up next: how Reaganomics stuck it to millennials, set the stage for Trumpism, and why radio host Thom Hartmann wrote an apology to young Americans mired in debt.
He joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:53:55]
REID: Former White House aide Cassidy Hutchinson may be cooperating with the DOJ`s January 6 probe and did offer damning testimony against Donald Trump.
But let`s not forget the praise she also shared about her former boss.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: As a staffer that works to always represent the administration to the best of my ability and to showcase the good things that he had done for the country, I remember feeling frustrated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Now, you heard that right. The good things Trump did for this country? Those good things being what exactly?
David Hoppe, former chief of staff to tax-cut-obsessed one-time House Speaker Paul Ryan, shared his answer on our show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID: List them. List these policies, because I hear people say this a lot. What policies, specifically?
DAVID HOPPE, FORMER PAUL RYAN CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, the tax cuts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: There you go.
Joining me now, Thom Hartmann, host of “The Thom Hartmann Program.”
Thom, I`m a big fan, so I am excited to find the we get you onto the show. And I`m such a big fan that I`m going to forgive you for ignoring Generation X in your otherwise excellent op-ed.
[19:55:07]
But I want to read a little bit of this op-ed.
THOM HARTMANN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: You skipped us.
HARTMANN: It`s great being here you.
REID: We always get skipped, though. We`re used to it. We`re used to it.
This is your apology to young Americans. And you wrote this on “The Hartmann Report.”
“Dear millennials, I`m sorry we didn`t stop them. Your generation today holds only 4.6 percent of the nation`s wealth. And you`re most likely struggling to own a home and are deeply in debt. What happened? In a word, Republicans. The most important reason millennials are so badly screwed these days is the various changes in our tax code that began in the 1980s. Reagan dropped the top tax rate on the morbidly rich from 74 percent down to 27 percent, and cut corporate tax cut rates from 50 percent to functionally nothing.”
I`m just going to let you talk, because every time I hear Republicans say, I didn`t like Trump`s personality, but I liked the policies, all I hear is, I love those tax cuts for the rich. They love tax cuts. And they will — they will literally let the devil become president if they get tax cuts.
But I`m going to let you talk.
HARTMANN: Well, thank you, Joy. And thanks. Thanks so much for having me here. It`s great to see you.
Yes, we have — we are on the tail end of a 42-year experiment in neoliberalism that Ronald Reagan rolled out, the Republican Party embraced, some Democrats embraced as well, although I think there`s a consensus across the Democratic Party now that it`s a failed experiment.
That huge tax cut that Reagan did, and then George W. Bush doubled down on it, and then Donald Trump tripled down on it has transferred literally $50 trillion over a 42-year period out of the pockets of the — of working- class people and into the pockets of the top one-tenth of 1 percent, $50 trillion.
NPR reported back about six years ago that the middle class used to be like half of us, right? I mean, that`s why it was called the middle class.
REID: Yes.
HARTMANN: Actually, in 1980, when Reagan came into office, it was about 60 percent of it — of us.
Now it`s like in the neighborhood of 45, 46 percent of us. The middle class has been wiped out. Our wages were wiped out by this — by Reagan`s neoliberalism, by these Republican policies that they`re still embracing, hating on unions, the so-called right-to-work for less laws and things like that.
They went after our ability to get an education, and yours and our — and my kids and the Zoomers and everybody. I went to college back in the `60s. I didn`t graduate.
REID: Yes.
HARTMANN: But in the brief time that I was there, I was able to pay tuition by working part-time as a dishwasher at Bob`s Big Boy and pumping gas at an Esso association. You could do that in the `60s. That was 68`- `69.
They came after — and now you have got $2 trillion in student debt. We`re literally the only developed country in the world that has a widespread problem of student debt. We — they get after our health care.
REID: Can I just stop you there?
HARTMANN: Sure. Any way you would like.
REID: Can I just stop you right there on the student debt thing?
Because whenever Republicans — when you bring up the idea, because there is this sort of who benefits, right, the cui bono question in politics. If you say we`re going to cut taxes on the rich, Republicans run into it. If you say we`re going to transfer some — a little bit of tax money to sort of pay off student debt, they say moral hazard, right?
It`s always moral hazard if you want to provide health care to people who need it. It`s moral hazard when you want to provide relief to student debt. But it`s never moral hazard to balloon the deficit for more tax cuts. And they`re willing to be more and more extreme to appease the base with bananas, like, social stuff to get it.
Do you think my theory is correct that they`re getting more and more extreme because they have to do more to entertain their base to sell the idea of stealing, essentially, from their base to give to the rich?
HARTMANN: Yes, you`re absolutely right.
And it`s starting to wear thin. I mean, these folks will say, oh, well, we can`t give people free education or free health care.
REID: Right.
HARTMANN: Because, when people get things that are free, they don`t value them. And you can`t just give people money.
And then they go out and they say, but you should not tax our wealth for our inheritance, because we want to make sure that our kids get all our money, right? And at some point, people are going, huh? This doesn`t make any frigging sense.
So, they — so, yes, they went after education. Then they went after our small businesses. I — my whole life, Louise and I have run seven small — have started and run seven small businesses. Four of them were pretty successful. One failed terribly. That`s how you learn.
(LAUGHTER)
HARTMANN: But you just can`t do that anymore. It`s — everything has gotten monopolized, these giant corporations.
Now they`re coming after our rent. They`re — you have got Wall Street buying up houses all across the United States, just so they can rent them out. And then what we find — and “The Wall Street Journal” actually did some pretty good journalism on this about four months ago.
What they found was that, when they hit this critical threshold of — I think it was 4 or 5 percent of all the homes in a community owned by Wall Street, they started jacking up the rents, just boom, I mean, like 10, 15, 20 percent rent increases every single year.
REID: Yes.
HARTMANN: So, the Zoomers and, well, really, everybody…
REID: Yes.
HARTMANN: I said, dear, millennials. I`m sorry, but my kids are millennials, so I was speaking to them, I suppose.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: Mine too.
HARTMANN: But they — yes.
And they just — they have been relentless. It`s all about transferring wealth and power.
REID: That`s correct.
(CROSSTALK)
REID: Transferring wealth and power up. Up, up up.
And, Thom Hartmann, I have to have you back, because we need to talk more about this, because it underlines a lot of extremism in our politics too, because they got to do more crazy in order to sell that to their base.
Thom Hartmann, you`re brilliant. Thank you very much.
And that is tonight`s REIDOUT.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES,” guess what, it starts right now.