Updated
Summary
Highland Park Mayor Nancy Rotering discusses her city`s trauma following July 4`s mass shooting. Mary Trump`s discusses her uncle`s potential legal troubles. How long before an American woman is prosecuted for having an abortion?
Transcript
JASON JOHNSON, MSNBC HOST: I`m Jason Johnson. That does it for me.
Ari will be back tomorrow.
THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID is up next.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on THE REIDOUT:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FANI WILLIS (D), FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I think that people thought that we came into this as some kind of game. This is not a game at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Fani Willis means business.
After the nearly unprecedented subpoena of a sitting United States senator, the Georgia prosecutor says she`s not done with her investigation of Trump`s effort to find votes to reverse the results of the election and that Trump himself could be next.
Also tonight, Mary Trump joins me, as her uncle`s constant demand for loyalty is being severely tested. More people are coming forward to reveal what they know about the big lie, including Trump`s former White House lawyer Pat Cipollone.
And as access to abortion gets more scarce by the day, we`re asking the question tonight, how long before an American woman is prosecuted for having an abortion?
But we begin tonight with unprecedented measures in an unprecedented investigation. Today, Fulton County district attorney Fani Willis spoke out for the first time after a special grand jury sent a fresh round of subpoenas in her investigation into interference in Georgia`s 2020 vote.
And it`s worth noting that one of the recipients is pretty extraordinary. Among those summoned was sitting United States Senator Lindsey Graham for information on his phone calls to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger questioning legally cast mail-in ballots.
It is not every day that a United States senator is subpoenaed in a criminal investigation, let alone a criminal investigation into potential crimes involving a former president of the United States.
But today, in an exclusive interview with NBC Blayne Alexander, DA Willis made clear that she is not afraid to do a lot of unprecedented things in her investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAYNE ALEXANDER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Can we expect to possibly see additional subpoenas from people in former President Trump`s inner circle or Trump associates?
WILLIS: Yes.
ALEXANDER: Are we talking about family members? Are we talking about former White House officials?
WILLIS: What I am doing is very serious. It`s very important work. And we`re going to do our due diligence in making sure that we look at all aspects of the case.
ALEXANDER: Might we see a subpoena of the former president himself?
WILLIS: Anything`s possible.
ALEXANDER: You`re not ruling out? It is possible to…
(CROSSTALK)
ALEXANDER: Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Willis said the grand jury should hear directly from the people involved in trying to overturn Georgia`s election.
In a statement, an attorney for Lindsey Graham said he intends to fight the subpoena, adding — quote — “In my conversations with Fulton County investigators, I have been informed Senator Graham is neither a subject nor the target of the investigation, simply a witness. This is all politics. Fulton County`s engaged in a fishing expedition and working in concert with the January 6 Committee in Washington” — unquote.
Well, Willis responded to that charge in real time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIS: What do I have to gain from these politics? It`s some inaccurate estimation.
It`s someone that doesn`t understand the seriousness of what we`re doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Willis said she hopes Graham will come forward and testify truthfully. But she indicated that she would — how she would handle resistance from any of the seven subpoenaed members of team MAGA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIS: Nobody wants to come to the prosecutor`s party. That`s just kind of part of the work that we do. We will take it before the judge and the judge will make a ruling if we have a legal right to bring them before the court.
My job is not to bring you here because you want to come. My job is to make sure that the grand jurors get all of the evidence they want.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: As Willis` investigation edges closer to the former president`s inner circle and possibly Trump himself, it stands in stark contrast to the other potential legal liability that the former president has faced.
Two top prosecutors in an investigation into Trump Organization business practices resigned in February, after new Manhattan district attorney Alvin Bragg expressed doubts about indicting the former president and effectively paused the investigation.
Trump and two of his children must testify in New York Attorney General Letitia James` parallel investigation into the Trump Organization starting next week, but that is a civil investigation.
Meanwhile, in the House January 6 Committee`s investigation, Vice Chair Liz Cheney has indicated that there could be multiple criminal referrals against the former president, but emphasized that the Justice Department doesn`t have to wait for recommendation to take action.
Fani Willis stressed in her investigation that no one, no one is above the law.
[19:05:01]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIS: If you come into my community and you commit a crime, you deserve to be held responsible. I don`t care what your race is. I don`t care what your gender is. I don`t care the status you have reached. I don`t care who you care to love.
ALEXANDER: That includes the former president?
WILLIS: And so Lady Justice here is blind. If he committed a crime in my jurisdiction, then it includes him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Joining me now is Nick Akerman, former assistant special Watergate prosecutor and a former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Paul Butler, Georgetown Law professor and a former federal prosecutor, and David Jolly, MSNBC political analyst and former Republican congressman who`s no longer affiliated with the party.
Nick, I`m going to start with you.
Lindsey Graham. So this is unprecedented. This is actually a very big deal for a sitting United States senator to be subpoenaed in a criminal investigation. Here is what his lawyer said about what he did that made him of interest to attorney Fani Willis.
“As chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Graham was well within his rights to discuss with state officials the processes and procedures around administrating elections.”
OK, that sounds fine, except here`s what “The Washington Post” reported that he actually did. Graham also asked — he basically asked if ballots can be excluded. “Graham asked whether Raffensperger, Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state, had the power to toss all mail ballots in counties found to have higher rates of non-matching signatures. Raffensperger said he was stunned that Graham appeared to suggest that he find a way to toss legally cast ballots. `It sure looked like he was wanting to go down that road,` said Raffensperger.”
In your mind, Nick, when you think about what Lindsey Graham actually did, is it obvious, as obvious to you as it is to his lawyer that he`s not a target, that he`s simply a witness?
NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: I wouldn`t say he`s merely just a witness.
I mean, he`s got to be a subject of this investigation. He`s got to be somebody that the grand jury is going to be looking at. Was he part of Trump`s scheme to basically steal the vote in Georgia?
I mean, this is the one case where prosecutors have really got the goods on Trump. They have got him on tape, two tapes. They have got Rudy Giuliani also on tapes. If there is one case — this is unlike the case you mentioned before, the tax case in New York, where you had no real witness against Donald Trump, a possibility of the former comptroller maybe flipping, but it`s all on paper.
There`s nothing that ties Trump to it. Trump is on tape-recorded evidence here. He can`t cross-examine it. He can`t hide from it. It`s there. It shows him pressuring and threatening Brad Raffensperger. And it certainly seems like Lindsey Graham was part of the same scheme.
And so I wouldn`t assume that Lindsey Graham is simply a witness in this case.
REID: And, Paul, I mean, this is — let me just give a list of all the people that were — this is the latest set of subpoenas.
It`s Lindsey Graham. It`s Rudy Giuliani, John Eastman, who we will all remember for — who wrote the coup memo, Jenna Ellis, who was part of Trump`s legal team, Cleta Mitchell, whose name keeps coming up. She sat in on that very call where Trump asked to find 11,780 votes, Kenneth Chesebro, who worked to coordinate these ultimate electors, which you know was illegal, and someone named Jacki Pick Deason, who spoke at the same December 2020 hearing as Rudy Giuliani.
And the — and so it looks like what Fani Willis is sort of zeroing in on is not just the call, Paul, but these — the fake electors scheme as well.
PAUL BUTLER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: That`s right.
Fani Willis sounded more like a local sheriff than a prosecutor when she said, if you come into my jurisdiction and you commit a crime, you will be charged with a crime.
Fani Willis say is tough. She threw the book at schoolteachers in Atlanta, who she charged with racketeering in a cheating scandal. And now it looks like her next big racketeering case might be the first prosecution ever of a former president. Prosecutor Willis seems to think about this case as in part about equal justice under the law.
Prosecutors bring cases if they think it`s in the public interest and they think they can persuade a jury beyond a reasonable doubt. As Nick said, Trump incriminated himself. He committed election fraud on tape, when he asked the secretary of state to find 11,780 votes.
Joy, Trump`s trying to steal Georgia`s 16 Electoral College votes is the same kind of local crime as if he walked into the Walmart in Atlanta and tried to steal a baseball cap.
REID: Wow.
And so it seems so crystal clear and so dead to rights, David. And the response that she`s been getting — let me just play a little bit more of this really extraordinary interview. And this is Fani Willis saying that she`s received threats, which there you go.
[19:10:04]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEXANDER: Have you gotten threats specifically because of your investigation into the former president?
WILLIS: Yes, and a lot of racist comments. It`s foolishness.
Look, I know I`m a black woman. I`m proud to be a black woman. So insulting me with racial slurs is — maybe it entertains them. It`s of no consequence to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It`s interesting, well, the usual sort of MAGA foolishness she`s getting for doing — for defending the law in the state of Georgia.
But I wonder if there`s a sense that, above that level, the sort of mucky, gross, base level, there`s some Republicans who might be kind of rooting for this, David. I`m thinking about Mitch McConnell, who said — there was this quote — and this was about the impeachment — that Mitch McConnell allegedly said — and this is a quote from the book “This Shall Not Pass.”
“The Democrats are going to take care of the son of a bitch for us,” referring to his imminent impeachment.
DAVID JOLLY, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
REID: There might be schadenfreude, that now it wouldn`t be even the January 6 Committee. It would be the black lady in Georgia.
JOLLY: Yes, quite ironic.
And you know who could help solve some of those threats of violence and racism? Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell, to be honest. I mean, if Lindsey Graham wanted to play the role of John McCain in this moment, he would be the first one to condemn the epithets that are coming towards the prosecutor in Fulton County. But he`s not. He`s hiding from her.
And I would suggest, honestly, it`s almost comical, Joy, how perfectly Lindsey Graham this entire moment is, that the guy lights the fire and then wants to run from it.
But here`s the other great irony in it and Lindsey Graham`s behavior in this moment. I would say go to Mitch McConnell and others, which is this. You know what ultimately will lead to the subpoena of Donald Trump? Lindsey Graham`s lack of cooperation.
If Lindsey Graham truly says, look, there was a legitimate legislative purpose, I was not doing this on behalf of the president, because Donald Trump told me to, if he wanted to go under oath and do the interview in Fulton County and say, that was the nature of my phone call, it gets very hard for the Fulton County prosecutor to then subpoena Donald Trump.
But it`s very easy without Lindsey Graham for the Fulton County prosecutor to say, you know what, Judge, because of the lack of cooperation of Lindsey Graham, the senator from South Carolina, we now have reason to believe that we need to bring under oath the former president of the United States, Donald Trump.
It is perfectly Lindsey Graham. It is all about the senior senator from South Carolina…
REID: Wow.
Paul, is that how you…
JOLLY: … and about nobody else.
REID: Paul, is that how you would play it if you were the prosecutor in this case?
BUTLER: I sure would.
Graham has no privilege. He wasn`t employed by the White House. So he can`t claim executive privilege. And even if he could, there`s that crime-fraud exception. So he`s not a subject now, Joy. He`s a witness, but you`re a witness unless and until the evidence makes you a subject or target of the investigation.
But Graham would almost certainly take the Fifth, and so would Trump if he is subpoenaed. So this news is earth-shaking not because we`re likely to hear testimony from these folks, but because it`s the clearest indication so far that DA Willis is focusing on the former president of the United States.
REID: Absolutely.
And just the news keeps coming, Nick. I`m going to throw this one to you because this came out sort of while we were preparing to get the show together. This is a “New York Times” bombshell headline, that it turns out that, in 2017 and 2019, James Comey and Andrea McCabe, two Justice Department foes that — people that Donald Trump thought were foes, faced intensive IRS audits, the kind that you don`t normally get, that people have called the autopsy without the — without the benefit of death is the nickname for them.
Nick, what do you make of the fact that two people that Donald Trump had had his DOJ investigate for alleged crime, they never were prosecuted, who he persecuted personally, saw as his enemies, magically get these very, very unprecedented audits, both of them, both McCain and Comey?
AKERMAN: Extremely suspicious.
This is precisely what I investigated as part of our process in the Watergate investigation. Richard Nixon had an enemies list, and he provided that enemies list of people at the IRS to get them audited. I mean, this is precisely what Nixon did to make life miserable for people who he didn`t like.
He did it with the IRS commissioner. He asked them to do it. And he also had Larry O`Brien, who was the chairman of the Democratic National Committee, audited. So there`s a very specific way to get to this. And that`s looking at all the documentation relating to the audit, trying to figure out who touched the returns, who asked for the audit. How did it originate?
IRS has very specific documents that one has to fill out before they do anything on this kind of investigation. And that should — the question is, will that lead right back to the White House?
REID: And Charles P. Rettig, whose term expires in November, he basically was allowed by the current president to allow — to stay in until his term expired.
[19:15:01]
It is, just to be clear, Nick Akerman, a crime for anyone at the IRS to call for the audit of any individual person, right?
AKERMAN: No question about it, absolutely a crime.
We did not have enough evidence to actually prosecute anybody for that crime. But it`s a fairly easy crime to investigate. And I`m sure, as a result of this article that came out in “The Times” tonight, that somebody`s going to be looking at this.
REID: Yes, there are coincidences, but, sometimes they take a lot of work to make happen.
Nick Akerman, Paul Butler, and David Jolly, thank you very much.
Mary Trump joins me next, as her uncle`s former White House counsel Pat Cipollone prepares to reveal what he heard and saw as the former president plotted to overturn the election.
THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:24]
REID: The January 6 Committee is getting closer and closer to Trump`s inner circle, having struck a deal with former White House counsel Pat Cipollone to sit down for a closed-door videotaped interview on Friday.
The committee also announced it will hold its next public hearing next Tuesday focused on the Trump world connections to the violent organizations that carried out the Capitol insurrection.
And while no witnesses have been announced, former deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews has reportedly agreed to testify at an upcoming hearing. For Trump his constant demand for loyalty is going to be severely tested, because as information continues to come out about his culpability for the insurrection, those around him will need to make a choice between remaining loyal and refusing to criticize him or telling the truth and standing up for our democracy.
With me now, Mary Trump, Donald Trump`s niece and host of the podcast “The Mary Trump Show.”
Mary Trump, it`s always good to see you.
I want to, before we get to this, the sort of meat of this segment, ask you about this bombshell “New York Times” report that two people that Donald Trump had severely targeted, James Comey and Andrea McCabe, were targeted for IRS audits.
And this is what Michael Schmidt — how he summarized it: “The minuscule chances of the two highest ranking FBI officials who made some of the most politically consequential law enforcement decisions in a generation being randomly selected for a detailed scrub of their tax returns a few years after leaving their posts presents extraordinary questions.”
What do you make of that? It seems unsurprising, given who Donald Trump is.
MARY TRUMP, AUTHOR, “THE RECKONING: AMERICA`S TRAUMA AND FINDING A WAY TO HEAL”: Yes, of course.
But it is important to emphasize just how vanishingly small the chances are that this was indeed random. And we`re talking about tens and tens of millions of people, and 8,000 pulled randomly, that two of Donald`s so- called…
REID: Yes.
M. TRUMP: … enemies would end up being audited in this way is almost impossible.
So it just shows you that we`re only looking at the tip of the iceberg here. We have no idea who else has been in the crosshairs. And as things ramp up in both the January 6 hearing and in Georgia, as you have been talking about, it will be fascinating to see what else is uncovered in this light.
REID: Absolutely.
This is from the story: “Out of nearly 153 million individual returns filed for 2017, for example, the IRS targeted about 5,000 people out of 153 million. That`s one out of 30,600 people.” So, yes, it`s vanishingly small.
M. TRUMP: Yes.
REID: Let`s go to Pat Cipollone, because he is the person who Liz Cheney, the vice chair of the 1/6 Commission, has been adamant that she wants to hear from, that the committee needs to hear from.
Here`s what Cassidy Hutchinson, who was an aide to Mark Meadows, said about Pat Cipollone`s warnings that Trump should not, not, not go to the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO MARK MEADOWS: Mr. Cipollone said something to the effect of: “Please make sure we don`t go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We`re going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.”
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Knowing Donald Trump as you do, what do you think he might have done if he`d gone to the Capitol?
M. TRUMP: Joy, I have been thinking about that a lot, because it doesn`t make sense if Donald thought for a second he was going to be in harm`s way.
Quite honestly, when I first heard months ago that he was going to go up to the Capitol, I didn`t think it was true, because he`s such a physical power.
But then we hear he knows these people were armed. We know that the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers were on board from the very beginning. And I`m beginning to — my speculation at this point is, he knew that they were going to be there to escort him into the building, where he would make his play on the floor of Congress.
I mean, again, it`s speculation, but I can`t think of any other scenario in which he would put himself in such a position. He needed to feel 100 percent confident that he was going to be just fine.
REID: So, that — I mean, when you take that and then you put Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony about Donald Trump apparently lunging for the wheel, demanding, I`m the effing president, take me to the Capitol, so, in your view, that would — he wouldn`t have demanded to go when he knew there were people who were armed, which he did, unless — in your words, unless he felt he was being escorted by armed men into the well of the House?
M. TRUMP: Right.
And let`s assume for the sake of argument that the story about his lunging for the steering wheel and physically assault a Secret Service agent is true. And there`s no reason for us to believe that that story is not true at this point.
[19:25:05]
He only did that knowing that these people can`t fight back, right?
REID: Yes.
M. TRUMP: So, at the same time, he knows that the clock is running out. This was his last chance to make sure that he got the result he wanted, which was to overturn the results of the 2020 election, in which he lost.
REID: Pat Cipollone`s testimony, I would assume, will destabilize Donald Trump mentally, because this is somebody who knew everything. This is White House counsel. He knew all of the dirty deeds that were going on and believe them to be illegal.
What do you think is going on inside MAGA world and in the Trump inner circle thinking about that testimony coming?
M. TRUMP: Well, I assume that the plates and the ketchup bottles have been battened down.
But it`s not a pleasant place to be, because, again, as you mentioned at the top of the show, this is closing in on all sides now.
REID: Yes.
M. TRUMP: And, in fact, I think the situation in Georgia is much more of an immediate risk to Donald right now, because DA Willis seems to have this nailed down.
And she understands, at least as well as anybody else, that Donald`s entire life is a RICO case. And she has the goods, shall we say.
REID: Indeed.
I want to read you — because the one place that Donald Trump does seem to be able to count on absolute loyalty is sort of out in the world of MAGA voters and state level MAGA politicians and obviously members of Congress, people at the political level, but also the voting level.
There is this pretty wild CBS/YouGov poll that is — that asked Republican voters, what do they want Republican midterm candidates to focus on? More than half, 52 percent, said that they want their candidates to focus on loyalty to Trump.
What do you make of that? Not on issues, not on inflation, not on nothing, just loyalty to Trump.
M. TRUMP: Besides finding it unbearably embarrassing, I think it just shows the extent to which people have been taken in.
Human beings hate being wrong. And much like the person that they will follow to the ends of the earth, despite the fact that that`s a one-way street, they`re just going to double down, because, otherwise, everything they have believed in, everything they have sacrificed for will be shown to be a lie.
And that is something I think most of them cannot grapple with. So here we are; 52 percent, I mean, that`s the same percentage who thinks that he`s a better president than Abraham Lincoln, so it shouldn`t really surprise us.
REID: Yes.
Yes, I mean, even in the end, many of Jim Jones` followers refused to drink the Kool-Aid, which is why there was so much mass carnage in his fake, made-up place in Guyana.
M. TRUMP: Right.
REID: Mary Trump, thank you. Really appreciate you.
Coming up next, Mayor Nancy Rotering of Highland Park, Illinois, joins me on how her community is coping after America`s latest high-profile mass shooting.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:32:47]
REID: Police say the gunman who is being held without bail on seven counts of murder has confessed to the horrific mass shooting in Highland Park, Illinois.
Officials still don`t know his motive, but say that he contemplated using his semiautomatic rifle from which he had shot 83 rounds into that parade in a second shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, where he drove after escaping the scene.
We`re also learning more about the victims of the shooting. Irina and Kevin McCarthy were attending the parade with their 2-year-old son, Aiden, who was found at the scene alone.
Jacki Sundheim was a beloved member of her synagogue and a former preschool teacher.
Stephen Straus was a longtime Highland Park resident. Family members told “The Chicago Tribune” that the 88-year-old was energetic beyond his years.
Nicolas Toledo hadn`t wanted to go to the parade. But his family brought him because his disabilities meant that he couldn`t be left alone.
Eduardo Uvaldo went to the parade with his family, who attend every year.
And Katie Goldstein, mourning her mother`s death, had been looking to get out of the House and have some fun when she attended the parade.
NBC`s Lester Holt spoke to her daughter, who was with her when she was shot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASSIE GOLDSTEIN, DAUGHTER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: And I told her that it was a shooter and that she had to run.
So I started running with her. And we were next to each other. And he shot her in the chest. And she fell down. And I knew she was dead. So I just told her that I loved her, but I couldn`t stop because he was still shooting everyone next to me.
I got 22 years with her. And I got to have 22 years the best mom in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Beyond the nearly 40 people injured on Monday, many were left traumatized.
NBC`s Dasha Burns spoke to 11- and 9-year-old sisters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like, scared of like maybe some louder noises. Like, when there was fireworks, that scared me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am still scared of, like, big noises, so, like, police sirens and stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m probably not going to go to any more parades.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just feel scared that now, parades, thinking about this would happen again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[19:35:05]
REID: As the community grieves, we`re learning more about how the gunman was able to legally obtain his weapons, despite police receiving a clear and present danger report on Robert Crimo after he threatened to kill family members in 2019.
They weren`t able to stop him from purchasing those weapons, since his father had sponsored his request. The shooting has also highlighted the limitations of local gun control without a federal assault weapons ban. Though the weapon he used in Highland Park was banned in the city itself, he was able to obtain it elsewhere in Illinois.
Joining me now, the mayor of Highland Park, Illinois, Mayor Nancy Rotering.
Mayor Rotering, thank you so much for being here.
We — as we put up another list of the people who died for — unnecessarily on July 4, how is the city coping? How are family members coping and how is that toddler who was left alone faring?
NANCY ROTERING, MAYOR OF HIGHLAND PARK, ILLINOIS: Thank you, Joy.
The toddler is going to be in my heart for the rest of my life. That story came to me pretty soon after we all had sought shelter. I was getting texts with this picture and people saying, we have this baby. We don`t know who he belongs to. First, we called — we tried to call the hospitals. Nobody was claiming him.
And, at that point, I had that sinking feeling that nobody was claiming him because they were no longer alive. He`s with his grandparents. There`s a GoFundMe that`s been created for him.
It just breaks my heart. This was a day that started off so joyfully. We hadn`t had a parade for two years. We had several generations together to celebrate. The weather was perfect. It was an unbelievable feeling of everybody coming together.
And it is just incomprehensible to me that somebody from our community would bring this sort of violence and evil to our streets. It just doesn`t make sense.
So how are we doing? We`re sad and we`re furious. There — I have been walking around talking to people. I tell anybody who comes to me that I`m hugging them before we`re talking. We`re — people are crying. People are coming from all over the region. It`s not just people from Highland Park, because I think a lot of people view us as their city.
Most people sort of view the quintessential Midwestern town, and we`re that on the Fourth of July. I mean, it doesn`t get more American. And then, sadly, to have a mass shooting in the middle of it, unfortunately, is also making us very typically American.
REID: Yes, indeed.
The vice president, Kamala Harris, was in town. And you saw her, met up with her yesterday. And let me play a little bit of what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We got to be smarter as a country in terms of who has access to what, and, in particular, assault weapons.
And we got to take this stuff seriously, as seriously as you are, because you have been forced to have to take it seriously. The whole nation should understand and have a level of empathy, to understand that this can happen anywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: It has to be incredibly frustrating to have a city that has very strong gun safety laws, but they are trumped by the laws outside of your city, and then at a larger level by the Supreme Court essentially saying, to every man a gun, but specifically that long guns, that assault-style rifles, because they are rifles, are essentially unregulated at all.
ROTERING: Right.
REID: Talk a little bit about the frustration of the fact that there are no existing gun laws that could have stopped this man from getting his firearm.
ROTERING: That`s been my beef all along. Every single time we have heard about a mass shooting, it seems it`s always prefaced by, and it was legally acquired, the weapon was legally acquired.
To me, that says that we have been failing to pass appropriate laws for years and years and years, since I don`t know when, Sandy Hook. So let`s talk about — we as a city passed our assault weapons ban in the wake of Sandy Hook, because we felt we needed to make that statement. And the state of Illinois gave us a very small window in which to pass that law. And so we did.
That window has shut. But let`s be clear. It needs to be a national ban. There`s nothing to stop anybody from going to Missouri or Indiana, those are close enough places, picking up whatever they want and coming back into Illinois.
So there can`t be a patchwork. And anybody who will listen to me, I`m begging you. Until this horror is in your front yard, you don`t quite understand the magnitude of the carnage. And for poor Cassie Goldstein to know that her mother had already died and to have to take off and leave her lying in the streets to save her own life, and we heard that story several times — my own husband was right there.
He has seen things nobody should ever see. When Senator Duckworth came to town, she talked to us about how she had never heard sounds like that since she was in combat in Iraq. These are combat weapons. These are weapons built specifically to destroy large swathes of humanity rapidly.
[19:40:10]
Why on earth those need to be available on the streets of America makes no sense to me. And I think we need to do something about it. I know we have been talking about it for decades.
REID: Yes.
ROTERING: I don`t know what it`s going to take in this country for somebody to say, enough is enough.
But I`m here, as the mayor of the middle of probably one of the most American cities in America, celebrating on America`s birthday, saying, if this doesn`t get your attention, if Sandy Hook didn`t get your attention, if Uvalde didn`t get your attention. I don`t know what you`re talking about.
REID: Yes.
ROTERING: And, frankly, let`s say mental health is an issue. It`s an issue throughout this world.
I`m kind of fed up with Mitch McConnell and his statement about, oh, we need to do more for mental health, when the Republicans aren`t funding mental health. We need to put more resources towards mental health services and help people get the help they need.
But let`s be clear. It`s unique in America that you can also access an assault weapon and use that to show how you`re feeling about the world.
REID: Yes, absolutely.
This is not church. It is not Sunday, but you can get an amen from me and I think from everyone who`s watching the show.
ROTERING: Thank you.
REID: Highland Park Mayor Nancy Rotering, God bless you and everyone in your city. Thank you.
And still ahead: How long? How long will it be until an American woman is prosecuted for terminating a pregnancy in post-Roe America? And, perhaps more importantly, what, if anything, are our political leaders prepared to do to fix this awful mess?
Back after this.
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[19:46:13]
REID: Back in April, even before the toppling of Roe, a Texas woman had been charged with murder for allegedly inducing her abortion.
Prosecutors later acknowledged that there was no legal basis for the charges. But the case is a cautionary tale. Five years ago, a black mother of three from Mississippi experienced a stillbirth at roughly 36 weeks. She was jailed after police found that she had searched for abortion information on her phone.
“The Washington Post” reports that her search history helped prosecutors charged her with — quote — “killing her infant child.”
In El Salvador, women have been incarcerated for decades for not producing a live birth, like Teodora del Carmen Vasquez, who ended up spending more than 10 years in prison for what she always insisted was a stillbirth.
Americans must also confront such widespread human rights violations as a radical right devours bodily autonomy in this country, where the prosecution of women suspected of purposefully or accidentally ending a pregnancy could become standard practice.
A question we must seriously mull over these days is, how long before an American woman is prosecuted for an abortion? And, no, this isn`t a dystopian storyline anymore, though we wish that it were.
Today is a dark day in the fight, as the last abortion clinic in Mississippi has closed, the Jackson Women`s Health Organization, nicknamed the Pink House for its bubblegum covered — colored exterior, where protesters clashed in front of this essential, very valuable medical facility, which now serves as a symbol of what the women in Mississippi have lost, the last clinic shuttered, done, instituting a near total abortion ban in a state where a Republican governor does not support or even believe in exceptions for rape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TATE REEVES (R-MS): I don`t believe that an exception for rape will actually make it through the Mississippi legislature and make it to my desk. Again, there`s a lot of effort, particularly in Washington and other places, mainly by the Democrats, to try to talk only about the really small, minor number of exceptions that may exist.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Wow.
But what`s even worse than a woman prosecuted for a miscarriage at stillbirth? Death. In states with strict abortion laws, doctors may hesitate before offering essential lifesaving measures when a woman is bleeding out during a miscarriage, because, remember, the doctors face fears of prosecution too.
It`s why activists are setting off alarm bells over the lack of urgency on the national level. So what can be done about it? And why it`s the governors who are on the front line.
Stay with us.
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[19:53:36]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): Republican leaders, they`re banning books, making it harder to vote, restricting speech in classrooms, even criminalizing women and doctors.
I urge all of you living in Florida to join the fight or join us in California, where we still believe in freedom, freedom of speech, freedom to choose, freedom from hate, and the freedom to love.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: California Governor Gavin Newsom is taking the fight to Florida`s authoritarian in chief, Ron DeSantis, making it plain that all of our freedoms are at stake.
And he`s not the only one. In New York, Governor Kathy Hochul is making extraordinary gains on abortion rights and gun safety, reminding the Supreme Court conservatives that they do not get to rule over her state, while, in Michigan, Governor Gretchen Whitmer remains central to keeping her state a pro-choice free state for women. These governors are leaning into the fight when we need it most.
But when it comes to Democrats in Washington, the question is, is the fight fierce enough?
Joining me now is David Plouffe, MSNBC political analyst and a former Obama White House senior adviser, and Xochitl Hinojosa, Democratic strategist and a former DNC communications manager.
Thank you both for being here.
I`m going to start with you, David, because you worked in a White House. And you know that no one`s ever satisfied. The thing about politics is that no one is ever happy with you. They`re only ever mad at you, right?
And so there is this whole fight about whether the White House is fighting hard enough. And I want to be fair to the Biden administration. They — he`s — Biden has come out and said he supports a carve-out to the filibuster to codify abortion rights. The secretary of homeland — of health and human services, Secretary Becerra, has said he`s going to use his authority via the Food and Drug Administration to make sure people can get abortion medication.
[19:55:11]
On guns, Biden signed. It was the biggest bill we have had in 30 years, but — since the last time Biden was involved in one, but he did sign something. So there is something happening.
But what do you make of the criticism that it`s the governors that are leaning in, while Biden seems to be kind of leaning back?
DAVID PLOUFFE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Joy, I`d say the governors right now, particularly if they are incumbents, have a lot to say about the current moment.
They`re either trying to — in blue states in particular, where they control the legislature, trying to force even more protections through their legislature. Or if you are a governor that doesn`t have control of the legislature and you`re a Democrat, you have to say you`re going to hold the line, and that`s why you need to get reelected.
So I do think the fight is really pronounced and clear. I think what has to happen in Washington — I do think Democrats in Washington can be clearer to just everyday say, we don`t have the votes to overturn what the Supreme Court did on abortion. If we get two more senators, and we hold the House, two big challenges, but, if we do that, we will be able to overturn what the Supreme Court did and codify Roe.
They should be saying that every day, talk about the stakes. The other thing that has to happen in Washington — and we`re not there yet, but you previewed this — is, as we have deaths, which we`re going to have, as we have prosecutions of doctors and of women who are seeking abortion services, those need to be highlighted for the American people each and every day, so that you raise the stakes here and people understand what`s happening.
So the states are absolutely critical. I will say this. Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Arizona, Georgia, Florida, a state you know well, these are massive states that have huge governor`s races. They all have huge Senate races. They all have multiple competitive House races. They have key down-ballot races.
So the action is in those states electorally, not exclusively. But, yes, I think there should be more urgency. I`m not sure, quite frankly, people should be going on vacations, taking breaks. I think the people in the states are absolutely panicked about what happened in the Supreme Court, wondering what the pathway forward is.
So I think some of the criticism is well-founded. But I think that we will see more of that, I would expect, in the weeks and months to come.
REID: You know, and, Xochitl, I`m sure that you hear this.
Democrats — I hear it every day, even in my own household sometimes from my kids, that people want to see Biden — it`s not — it`s the “Lord of the Rings” thing, right? They want to see you running for Mordor, right? They want to — they want to hear that the speech that says, we`re going to take executive action. We`re going to take action against these states. We control their highway funding. We`re going to hit that if they don`t stop attacking women.
We want gun reform. We`re going to do these hardcore things. Even if the Supreme Court says we can`t, we`re going to do it anyway. Do you think that there`s a — why don`t Democrats talk that way at the national level? Because they do at the state level.
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, you`re right. And I think David is right too. He`s talking about urgency.
And I think we do need to see more urgency. You saw President Biden speak out immediately. You saw Vice President Harris speak out immediately. The reality is, there is very little President Biden can do. And I think that, to David`s point, we need to start saying, listen, we don`t really have a majority. The reality is, is, we don`t have the votes to pass and to codify Roe v. Wade.
I think that, because of the outside pressure, you saw the administration, you saw President Biden go out and say, you know what, I do want a filibuster carve-out. He`s trying to be more vocal on it. The reality is and the reason why he didn`t say before is because it`s unclear that Democrats, whether Democrats even have the votes to do that.
And so I do think, to your point, Joy, a lot of times — and David would know this — is, when you are the party in power, it`s not about persuasion. It`s about mobilization.
REID: Yes.
HINOJOSA: And it`s about mobilizing your voters to turn out.
And there are very few issues that will mobilize our base, but this is one of them. And Democrats really have to say loud and clear, listen, some of you didn`t vote in the 2016 election, and I want to just let you know, this is what happened. Now we all need to turn out, because the only way that we`re going to stop what is happening at the Supreme Court is by expanding our majority, and we need to do that by going to the ballot box.
Saying alone, like, just we need to go out and vote, I think does not resonate with people, because there are young people who voted in 2020.
REID: Yes.
HINOJOSA: They saw what Donald Trump brought to our country, and they thought that they voted for change. And now they`re like, why am I going to go back out and turn out whenever — we didn`t get what we wanted.
So we have to remind voters is that these elections have lasting impacts. Focusing on states will be critical for the next few decades. And we need to do that. And Democrats do need to show more urgency.
REID: I always tell people, remember, Donald Trump actually did one thing legislatively when he was president. He passed a giant tax cut for the super rich. Everything else he did was rhetorical.
There is no wall. And Republicans took 50 years and never quit voting until they took down Roe v. Wade. They didn`t take it down in one swathe. It took them 50 years.
Vote like a Republican.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: Thank you, David Plouffe. Xochitl Hinojosa, thank you.
And that is tonight`s REIDOUT.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts now.