Updated
Summary
Congress hears the truth about the Uvalde massacre. Pressure mounts on Congress to take action on Gun Violence. Today, Attorney General Merrick Garland inadvertently gave more cover to the Texas cover-up of the police failure during the mass murder at Robb Elementary School. Kevin McCarthy who now attacks the January 6 committee, thought it was a very good idea five days after the January 6 attack on the Capitol.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. I know you`ve been concentrating on the hearing tomorrow. I think concentrating on the House hearing this morning about Uvalde, about the mass shooting in Baltimore.
I heard there something that changed my understanding of how bad this is. And it was actually description by a doctor who treated some of the survivors and saw some of the bodies of the first dead children that they had at the hospital. His testimony, there are parts of it, that I`m not sure that every word he said about what he saw with those wounds got across.
And there is one word that he used that I`m going to get you in this hour. It is a horrifyingly graphic description. You know, there`s been that discussion recently about should be photographs of this so that people can really understand it.
Well, Chris, there was language there in that hearing today that is beyond anything that you would actually expect to see in such photographs. I`m not sure that it had any impact at all on the Republican members of that committee.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, “ALL IN”: Yeah, I watched a clip, a long clip of the individual you`re talking about. It was incredibly powerful and I agree that that is as important for people to hear as any debate about these images.
My father worked in gun safety activism and one of the things that you find in those circles is a lot of the most militant people are emergency room doctors, trauma doctors who work in places where they see day after day, after day, after day what`s bullets due to a body. I think we saw that on display here in the hearing today.
O`DONNELL: Yeah, it was. We are going to get it in this hour. Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: Thanks.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
Five months, five months. Governor Greg Abbott needs the Texas cover-up to continue for just five more months, so that Texans get no more new information about what happened at Robb Elementary School for the 78 minutes when kids and teachers were bleeding to death on the floor. Today, Attorney General Merrick Garland made an announcement in Washington intended to pierce the Texas cover-up but will probably have the effect of helping the Texas cover-up continue for at least another five months. We will have more on the cover-up in Merrick Garland`s inadvertent contribution to it later in this hour.
The hour that police spent standing in the hallway of the school doing nothing has been called by Uvalde`s local newspaper Uvalde`s darkest hour ever. A woman who works at that newspaper, “The Uvalde Leader News”, said today that for some politicians, quote, guns are more important then children. She is talking about Republicans, of course, because it is the Republican Party whose official position is to assure that America`s mass murders are the best equipped mass murders in the world while the Democratic Party for decades has been trying to ban the sale of the favored tool of America`s mass murderers, the AR-15 assault rifle.
The woman who said guns are more important children said that today right to the faces of Republican members of Congress in a hearing in the House of Representatives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIMBERLY RUBIO, MOTHER OF UVALDE VICTIM ALEXANDRIA RUBIO: We understand that for some reason to some people, to people with money, to people who fund political campaigns that guns are more important than children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: It is a great tragedy of this moment in American history that that statement is not shocking, that statement doesn`t shock anyone today. That statement is simply a fact of legislative history.
Guns are more important than children. And Republicans have supported that very principle with the votes they have cast for and against gun legislation.
Republicans have done everything they possibly can to make guns as easy to get as possible, including assault weapons invented for use by trained soldiers in water. If guns were not more important than children in Texas, then they would not have had to build 19 child-sized coffins in Uvalde. One for Kimberly Rubio`s daughter Lexi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUBIO: Lexi received a good citizen award and was recognized for receiving all A`s. At the conclusion of the ceremony, we took photos with her, asked her to pose with her teacher, Mr. Reyes. That photo — her last photo was taken at approximately 10:54 a.m., to celebrate we promised to get her ice cream. We told her we loved her and we would pick her up after school.
I can still see her walking with us towards the exit. The word that keeps scrolling across my memory as she turns back to us to acknowledge my promise and then we left. I left my daughter at that school and that decision will haunt me for the rest of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: She is now haunted for the rest of her life for doing what we all would have done. Of course, she left her daughter at school, that`s where her daughter was supposed to be. But because an 18 year old had no problem legally purchasing to assault rifles and 1,000 rounds of ammunition and large magazines that ammunition. The parents of Uvalde are going to be haunted the rest of their lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUBIO: And we`re at school, my husband was with me. We sat aside for a while before it became clear that we wouldn`t receive an answer from law enforcement on scene. San Antonio firefighter eventually gave us a ride back to the Civic Center where the district was asking all families who had not been reunited with their children together.
Soon after, we received the news that our daughter was among the 19 students and two teachers that died as a result of gun violence. If given the opportunity, Lexi would`ve made a positive change in this world. She wanted to attend St. Mary`s University in San Antonio, Texas, on a softball scholarship. She wanted to major in math and go on to attend law school.
That opportunity was taken from her. She was taken from us. I`m a reporter, a student, a mom, a runner. I read to my children since they were in the womb.
My husband is a law enforcement officer, an Iraq war veteran. He loves fishing and our babies.
Somewhere out there, there is a mom listening to our testimony thinking I can`t even imagine their pain, not knowing that our reality will one day be hers unless we act now.
Thank you for your time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: She`s right. Because guns are more important than children, there will be more mothers who are haunted for the rest of their lives. The most haunting thing said today at the hearing was not said by a parent who lost a child. It was one word said by doctor who treated victims at the hospital in Uvalde that day.
The word flashed past our ears quickly, one word in the middle of a 19 word sentence. No one used the word again in the hearing. No one commented on it.
The word now lives in the congressional record in a transcript of that hearing and perhaps that`s where we should leave it because it is the single most grotesque word that has been used to describe what happened. It was in the testimony of Dr. Roy Guerrero, a certified pediatrician who himself is a graduate of Robb Elementary School.
Dr. Guerrero began his testimony with reference to his Hippocratic Oath as a physician.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROY GUERRERO, PEDIATRICIAN IN UVALDE, TX: I swore an oath, an oath to do no harm. After witnessing firsthand the carnage in my hometown of Uvalde, to stay silent would be to betray that oath. Inaction is harm, passivity is harm, delay is harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Yes, all of those things are harm. That is the harm inflicted on the American people and American schoolchildren by Republicans — inaction, passivity, and delay.
[22:10:06]
That`s what Republicans always do after mass murders — inaction, impassivity, and delay. Dr. Guerrero remembered the old days of Robb Elementary School, which reminded me of my time in elementary school when no one was worried about anyone coming through the door with a gun.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUERRERO: Back then, we were able to run between classrooms to visit our friends. I remember the way the cafeteria smelled on hamburger Thursday`s. It was right around lunchtime on Tuesday that that gunman entered the school through a main door without restriction, massacred 19 students and teachers. He change the way that other student at Robb and the family remember that school, forever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Dr. Guerrero described his first minutes at the hospital as the gunshot victims were arriving from Robb Elementary School.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUERRERO: I raced to the hospital to find parents outside yelling children`s names in desperation. They were sobbing as they begged for any news related to their child. Those mothers` cries that will never get out of my head.
As I entered the chaos of the ER, the first casualty that came across with me was Cerrillo. She was sitting in the hallway, her face was still clearly in shock, but her whole body was shaking from the adrenaline coursing through it. The white Lilo & Stitch shirt that she wore was covered in blood, and her shoulder was bleeding from a shrapnel injury.
Sweet Miah, I`ve known her my whole life. As a baby, she survived major liver surgeries against all odds. Once again, she is here as a survivor, inspiring us with her story today and her bravery.
When I saw Miah sitting there, I remember having seen her parents outside. So after quickly examining two other patients of mine in the hallway with minor injuries, I raced outside to let them know that Miah was alive. I wasn`t ready for the next urgent and desperate question. Where is Elena?
Elena is Miah`s 8-year-old sister who is also at Robb at the time of the shooting. I didn`t find Elena. But what I did find was something no prayer will ever believe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The doctor`s next sentence contained that word that is so disturbingly graphic. There has been some recent debate, as Chris and I were just discussing, about showing photographs of what happens to children who are shot by high powered assault rifles with bullets traveling at 3,000 miles an hour, and expanding as those bullets passed through human flesh and bone.
Some people suggest that those images would change America from the country where guns are more important than children. The theoretical model for that would be Emmitt Till`s mother`s decision to leave his casket open after his lynching so that American can see what happened to her son. She did that in hopes of changing America.
I don`t know. I don`t know what can change America. And I don`t know if it would help to present any more graphic accuracy about what weapons of war do to children`s bodies. But Dr. Guerrero told us what we would see if we saw what happened to the children in Uvalde.
And I for one know that I absolutely do not want to see that. There is no warning before the doctor described what happened to those bodies in today`s hearings. But I must issue a warning now. The next sentence that you are about to hear contains a word that you have not heard before about what happened to at least two children, the first two dead children at the hospital that Dr. Guerrero saw.
It is by far the single most disturbing thing and most graphic thing I have ever heard about a mass murder. You will never forget it. And maybe for you, the best decision is to just leave that word buried in the congressional record and never know it. But it is the truth of what happened and the doctor is going to be haunted by this for the rest of his life.
And he told this truth to Congress because he wants us to know this truth. And so, here is Dr. Guerrero`s description of the first two dead bodies that he saw, a site that he says, quote, no prayer will ever relieve.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GUERRERO: Two children whose bodies had been pulverized by bullets fired at them decapitated, whose flesh had been ripped apart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Decapitated. Not a single Republican who heard that today was moved by that word, not one.
Democrats want to ban the sale of the weapons that do that to children but Republicans want everyone to be able to buy assault weapons, including 18 year olds.
[22:15:04]
Republicans defended that at today`s hearing, even after hearing Dr. Guerrero tell them that a mass murder with an AR-15 in an elementary school classroom literally blew the heads off of children. That didn`t change the thinking of one Republican on that committee today, not one. I thought I knew with those weapons could do, but I didn`t know that. Decapitated.
That`s why they needed green sneakers to identify the body of one of the kids as Matthew McConaughey told us yesterday. That`s why they needed DNA tests in some cases. That`s part of why parents waited so long to find out if their kids were dead or alive and that`s why Matthew McConaughey, although he was mightily trying to control his anger found himself literally pounding the table once yesterday in the White House press briefing room. Decapitated.
If al Qaeda did that you two American soldiers, Republicans would be willing to wage a war over that. But if you do it in America classroom, you will get inaction, passivity, and delay from those very same Republicans.
Dr. Guerrero said today: I became a pediatrician because I knew children were the best patients. He told the story of his patient Miah overcoming liver disease and finding her alive at the hospital that day. Miah was alive because, as we first reported to you on this program two weeks ago, she covered herself in blood, the blood of our dead friend so that the murderer would think that Miah was already dead.
Miah testified to the committee today from her home in Uvalde.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIHA CERRILLO, 11-YEAR-OLD UVALDE SURVIVOR: My name is Miah Cerrillo. (INAUDIBLE) she went to lock the door. She was back in the room. She said, go hide and then we want to go hide behind the teacher`s desk and behind the desk.
Then he shot the little window. And then he went to the other classroom and then he went in. There was a door between our classrooms and he went through there. He shot my teacher and he told my teacher “good night” and he shot her in the head. And then shot some of my classmates.
When I went to the backpacks, he shot my friend that was next to me, and I thought he was going to come back to the room, so I grabbed a little blood and put it all over me and —
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you think when you put the blood on yourself?
CERRLLO: And I just stayed quiet. I got my teacher`s phone and called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you tell 911?
CERRILLO: I told her that we need help, and to send the police in our classroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there something that you want people to know about that day about you, or things that you want to be different, what would it be?
CERRILLO: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you feel safe at school? Why not?
CERRILLO: I don`t want it to happen again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think it`s going to happen again?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Miah is right. It`s going to happen again.
After this break, we will be joined by another witness who testified at that hearing today and had to explain to Republicans how wrong they are. And David Hogg, who has been in Washington all week, will join us after a chance encounter today with Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski. That`s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:23:39]
O`DONNELL: We saw two different lobbying approaches on Capitol Hill today. Here is David Hogg in a chance encounter in the hallway with Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski who seems open to some form of gun legislation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): I recognize this. Nice to meet you.
(CROSSTALK)
DAVID HOGG, PARKLAND SURVIVOR: We are just trying to do the right thing here. We don`t want the next generation out here. We`re not like the NRA or anything, like trying to do some crazy stuff. We just —
MURKOWSKI: You are looking for some steps.
HOGG: I am.
MURKOWSKI: Yeah, I get that. I totally get that. And I think that in Congress, we owe some — we owe some steps to you.
HOGG: Okay.
MURKOWSKI: OK, we have some work to do.
There is so many layers to this, you can recognize that.
HOGG: Yeah.
MURKOWSKI: But we can`t say it is so complicated that we can`t do anything because I think that`s where the (INAUDIBLE) is, we haven`t been able to make any —
HOGG: Any progress at all.
MURKOWSKI: Any progress. We just say, oh, this is too hard, too hard to say. And It could not be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And here is Becky Pringle, the president of the National Education Association testifying in today`s House hearing, explaining to Republicans how absurd it is to think teachers with guns can prevent school shootings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BECKY PRINGLE, NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION PRESIDENT: We cannot place enough armed guards at every school building in America to protect our babies.
[22:25:04]
We cannot ask educators to carry weapons and wear body armor while teaching and nurturing our students, because by the time someone has shown up with a military weapon, it is already too late.
I just want you to imagine that was a middle school teacher. My responsibility was to ensure that every student was nurtured and that they could learn, come to school to learn every day.
And now, the suggestion that I as a teacher would be responsible for carrying a weapon and making a split decision, split moment decision about whether I was going to shoot someone or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now is the president of the National Education Association, Becky Pringle, and David Hogg, cofounder of March for Our Lives. He is the survivor of a school shooting at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Florida.
And, Becky Pringle, let me begin with you in testifying at that committee. You certainly took on the Republican idea of let`s just load up the teachers with guns.
PRINGLE: Lawrence, can I just say that it was quite an emotional day. It was gut-wrenching. We spent the first portion of your show showing those videos. I was there with those witnesses, listening to those parents and students.
It was inspiring to see survivors of gun violence standing up and telling their stories, reliving the trauma to try to protect others. It was infuriating to see some members on that committee blaming teachers, the parents, and criticizing us for politicizing this issue when every single day over 100 people die from gun violence. It was infuriating, it was insulting. We at the NEA, our 3 million members and all the educators across this country will continue to stand up and speak up, and we will not stop.
O`DONNELL: David, what did you take away from your moments with Senator Murkowski?
HOGG: That — well, I have already known. I believe our country is a lot more united than you think we are. It`s just that Americans who are at Republican voters and gunners, liberals, and non-gun owners, need to demand that our Congress act and do what they believe that we can`t, which is work together and get something done, something substantial, not something just that is a talking point, but something actually truly substantial.
And, Lawrence, there`s one thing I wanted to say to everybody tonight. I want everyone who`s watching, every parent or anyone to take out a photo on your phone right now and look at a photo of your child. Look at a photo of your best friend, your significant other.
I want you to imagine the last time that you had a great time with them and everything. Now I want you to imagine them being killed tomorrow. Because on February 14th, the day before the shooting at my high school, we also thought this could ever happen to us in Parkland, Florida, as the safest community in Florida.
I need everyone watching this to get activated before this, march with us on June 11th, with gun owners, with Republicans, Democrats, with non-gun owners, everyone to demand action. If you want to march with us, you can text “march” to 954954. Once again, that`s “march” to 954954. This is outrageous. We have to demand action together as Americans.
O`DONNELL: David, you are marching on Saturday in Washington, D.C. and in other parts of the country?
HOGG: Yes, that`s correct. We are in D.C. and other parts of the country to put pressure on the senators because it`s just the beginning.
O`DONNELL: Yeah.
Becky Pringle, the Texas — it is possible for teachers in Texas to have guns. And of the 369,000, 369,000 public school teachers, exactly 361 have taken that option. So, less than one tenth of 1 percent. And yet, that was a solution and remains a solution in the minds of some Republicans.
PRINGLE: Lawrence, that`s as everything, right? Our teachers overwhelmingly rejected that idea, so do our teachers, so do our parents, because we do not want to put the burden of that responsibility on our teachers or other educators in our school buildings.
That responsibility falls squarely at the feet of elected officials who had not yet done their job to protect our kids. David said it all. We, here in America, the majority of Americans support comprehensive common sense gun laws, the kinds of measures that the Protect Our Kids Act, that the House just passed this evening have in it, the majority of Americans.
[22:29:41]
Now those who have been elected to pass these laws need to do their jobs.
O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what the Buffalo Police commissioner said today to the committee about the “good guy with a gun” theory, stopping the mad man with the AR-15.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH GRAMAGLIA, BUFFALO POLICE COMMISSIONER: He engaged the shooter as he entered, hitting him with at least one shot. It is often said that a good guy with a gun with will stop a bad guy with a gun. Aaron was the good guy and was no match for what he went up against, a legal AR-15 with multiple high capacity magazines. He had no chance.
Assault weapons like the AR-15 are known for three things. How many rounds they fire, the speed at which they fire those rounds and body count.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: And David, you have been arguing against this “good guy with a gun theory” for years now.
DAVID HOGG, CO-FOUNDER, MARCH FOR OUR LIVES:: I have. And the reality is, Lawrence, we have tried this talking point over and over again. There are now more police officers in schools than there ever have been since Columbine.
And we`ve — that`s been the solution that we`ve seen time and time again. And I want people to realize that, A, in Parkland, the good guy with a gun on campus, an SRO, failed. In Texas, 19 — 19 good guys with guns only proved to be cowards with guns.
And you think that you can just arm teachers and that, A, they are even going to accept that? But B, that somehow they are going to also have the same level of training as law enforcement? You are out of your mind.
Teachers already have so much going on. My mom is a teacher. They have to be so many things, let`s not make them be an armed guard on top of everything else, because our politicians won`t do their jobs.
O`DONNELL: David Hogg and Becky Pringle, thank you for trying to protect all of us in Washington today. And thank you for joining this discussion tonight.
HOGG: Thanks.
PRINGLE: Lawrence? Lawrence?
O`DONNELL: Yes?
PRINGLE: Can I tell you — can I tell you something David said in 2018?
I reminded him of this when I was with him in Houston. He said, we are not done yet. You will know when we are done. When this country passes common sense, comprehensive gun laws, then we are done.
O`DONNELL: That`s it.
PRINGLE: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you both very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming up, Attorney General Merrick Garland inadvertently gave more cover to the Texas cover-up of police inaction at Robb Elementary School today. The Austin American Statesman`s investigative reporter Tony Plohetski — will join us next.
[22:32:51]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Today, Attorney General Merrick Garland inadvertently gave more cover to the Texas cover-up of the police failure during the mass murder at Robb Elementary School.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MERRICK GARLAND, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: The review will be comprehensive. It will be transparent. And it will be independent. We will be assessing what happened that day. We will be doing site visits at the school. We will be conducting interviews of an extremely wide variety of stakeholders, witnesses, families, law enforcement, government officials, school officials. And we will be reviewing the resources that were made available after — in the aftermath.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The attorney general announced the appointment of a few retired police chiefs and others to the team in the community relations section of the Justice Department that will conduct a review, not an investigation, of what happened at Robb Elementary School.
I repeat, this is not a federal investigation. The attorney general never used the word investigation. It has no power, it has no investigative powers whatsoever, no subpoena power.
A “critical incident review” as the Justice Department calls these things, is just a review. It`s just that. Mostly a review of paperwork in other law enforcement agencies` investigations. But authorities in Uvalde are now saying that they will not answer any public questions about what happened at Robb Elementary School until Merrick Garland`s review is complete.
Justice Department incident reviews like this always take much, much longer than the five months Governor Greg Abbott needs to preserve the cover-up until election day in Texas on November 8th.
Chief Pete Arredondo, who is in command in the school that day, will not be forced to answer a single question from Merrick Garland`s Justice Department review, not one. No one can make him answer a single question in that review. And so the cover-up continues.
Joining us now is Tony Plohetski, investigative reporter for the “Austin American-Statesman”.
Tony, we have heard people, the district attorney, others in Uvalde saying, oh, we can`t possibly answer any questions while the investigations are going on, including what they call the federal investigation, which is not actually an investigation.
[22:39:58]
TONY PLOHETSKI, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FOR THE “AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN”: I think people are really torn about this whole thing, that yes, they see your point as well. But on the other side of the equation, there is also the belief among many people in Uvalde and frankly across the state, that if they are ever going to get any real answers, that those answers are going to have to come from an independent investigative agency, like the Department of Justice doing this work.
There have been efforts, as we have been talking about for two weeks since this happened to get real clear answers. And so far the public is just not getting a full, complete and accurate narrative about what happened that day.
And as we have also been talking about, Lawrence, the person who was perhaps in a key position to do that is Chief Pete Arredondo.
O`DONNELL: Yes, and I know you`ve made efforts since through the school superintendent and others to find out what`s has happened to him. He is employed by the school district, which means he is fireable (ph) by the superintendent of the school board.
Let`s put all of their names up there. There is the superintendent Hal Harrell, the school board is Luis Fernandez, Robert Fowler, Laura Perez, Javier Flores, Anabel White, Cal Lambert, J.J. Suarez, and not one of them has any issue whatsoever as of now with the chief who did nothing in that school for over an hour.
PLOHETSKI: Well, one thing that is so striking, I think, also, to so many people, is that they have not taken the step of at least putting the chief on some sort of administrative leave. So that he is not coming to the office every day and performing his duties as police chief. That is usually so typical when there is a law enforcement official who is the subject of an investigation or has such close proximity to a major catastrophe or a major tragedy like we`ve seen in Uvalde. And yet the school board, nor the superintendent, have taken that step.
So, what the superintendent has said publicly is that he believes that they need more information and that they need more of an assessment about what happened that day.
But it is striking that as far as we know, as we sit here tonight, the superintendent and the school board haven`t fully completed an interview or haven`t interviewed their police chief to get a full narrative, a full account from him, about everything he did in that school that day.
O`DONNELL: No school population has been more badly served than Uvalde by Superintendent Hal Harrell. He is officially the worst school superintendent in America tonight, clearly participating in a cover-up at this point. And if he is not, let him come forward and explain how he is not.
Tony Plohetski, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
PLOHETSKI: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And up next, five days after the January 6 attack on the Capitol, Kevin McCarthy thought the January 6 Committee was a very good idea. And we actually have that on tape. That`s next.
[22:43:23]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: The breaking news of the night is that Kevin McCarthy who now attacks the January 6 committee, thought it was a very good idea five days after the January 6 attack on the Capitol. And we know that thanks to audio revealed by the “New York Times” Alex Burns and Jonathan Martin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We cannot just sweep this under the rug, we need to know why it happened, who did it, and people need to be held accountable for it. And I`m committed to make sure that happens.
First option, as some people talked about, is a censure resolution against the president. Both Republicans and Democrats are drafting these. And one could be introduced or co-sponsored.
Another item that we can discuss is a bipartisan commission to investigate the circumstances surrounding the attack. We need to know and have the facts exactly what happened and when. This needs to be done in a targeted way that doesn`t distract from keeping the Capitol safe over the coming weeks.
But what we learned is that people can get in. We learned that people planned. We need to have all the facts especially for all of us and we should do it in a bipartisan manner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Today a federal judge ordered attorney, John Eastman to turn over documents to the January 6 Committee. The judge`s order highlights an email that must be turned over written on December 22nd 2020.
The judge said, “This email considers whether to bring a case that would decide the interpretation of the Electoral Count Act and potentially risk a court finding that the act binds Vice President Pence.
Because the attorney concluded that a negative court ruling would tank the January 6 strategy, he encouraged the legal team to avoid the courts. This email cemented the direction of the January 6 plan.
[22:49:53]
O`DONNELL: The Trump legal team chose not to seek recourse in court, instead they forged ahead with a political campaign to disrupt the electoral count. Lawyers are free not to bring cases, but they are not free to evade judicial review to overturn a democratic election.
Accordingly, this portion of the email is subject to the crime fraud exception and must be disclosed.
Join us now Paul Butler, law professor at Georgetown University and a former federal prosecutor. He`s also an MSNBC legal analyst. And we are joined by Barry Berke. He served as chief impeachment counsel during Donald Trump`s second impeachment trial and as special counsel to the House Judiciary Committee during Donald Trump`s fist impeachment trial.
And Barry, let me begin with you, with all of your experience in the kind of work that we are going to see on display tomorrow night in this hearing. How do you think it informs this committee to be getting this audiotape on the eve of their public hearing, revealing how Kevin McCarthy actually felt about conducting this kind of investigation just a few days after the attack on the Capitol?
BARRY BERKE, FORMER CHIEF IMPEACHMENT COUNSEL DURING DONALD TRUMP`S IMPEACHMENT TRIAL: Lawrence, it`s incredibly important because this first hearing in some ways is really going to dictate whether the American people care about what`s going to happen. They are going to be tuning in to say, does this matter.
And the McCarthy tape, which you so eloquently presented could`ve been the opening statement because when you have allies of the former president back in the day contemporaneously saying this matters, it is important, then the American people can see that this is not just a retread of old events but this matters.
And that`s what the committee has to do the most. Show why this matters, that January 6 was not the end of, that was the culmination of a systematic attempt to undermine the elections which Kevin McCarthy says in his own words, in a way that is as clear as any committee member could say.
O`DONNELL: Paul Butler, there is a very troubling term used in this judge`s order today about Eastman`s emails saying that it is subject to the crime fraud exception. What did that mean to you?
PAUL BUTLER, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: It means that there is evidence that somebody committed a crime, either Eastman or someone like Donald Trump. And even though Eastman has been claiming these bogus privileges, the judge doesn`t even have to get to that because if there is evidence of a crime committed then that overcomes the privilege.
Lawrence, every time any judge looks closely at emails or texts, or other documents related to Donald Trump they tend to find evidence of crimes.
O`DONNELL: Barry, tomorrow night when they are trying to — this is essentially like in trial terms, this would be like the opening statement. Is this a moment where they`re going to reveal, in effect, everything that they have and then later hearings are filling in the details?
BERKE: It`s a great question, I don`t believe they`re going to disclose everything. What they`re going to want to do is disclose enough so that they are saying you American people think you know about January 6, you don`t. We have explosive, new evidence.
And we are going to tell it to you in a compelling narrative so it is a must watch TV. So we are going to have it unfold. We`re going to tell you the story. We are starting tomorrow with the crime, Proud Boys, police officers who were seriously injured so you`ll understand the extent of the crime as you would in a violent trial.
But then, we are going to unfold explosive important evidence that you don`t know about to show you why this was the most significant attack on our democracy in the history of our nation.
And I believe though they`re going to have to give some new evidence to bring the viewers in. That`s why tomorrow is so important. I will tell you during the impeachment proceedings for January 6, the very first hearing day we were focused on this because Mitch McConnell had set it up so the first day it would be the worst day. A constitutional argument about whether you can impeach a former president.
We didn`t take the bait, we showed a 14-minute video of the attack to help to set the narrative to bring people in. You`re going to see much more of that after the 11 months of investigation. So I think we`ll see some of the evidence but really the start of the storytelling, the start of the narrative.
O`DONNELL: Paul, because this is a live investigation with developments happening even today, for example with the Eastman case, they`re going to have to make — they`re going to have to adapt to that as they go along as sometimes happens in longer trials where evidence can actually develop during a trial.
BUTLER: Yes, that`s exactly right. So what they want the American people to take away is that January 6 was the most violent attack on the Capitol in 200 years. And Lawrence, it`s crazy that the House can last (ph) to find a way make this horrific attack on our democracy interesting and important to many Americans.
[22:55:00]
BUTLER: But that`s where we are with many people thinking it`s time to move on. And others saying it is all about partisan politics.
I agree with Barry, the panel is producing a show for primetime TV that we`ll have to tell a compelling story with new evidence and with compelling live witnesses. So tomorrow we`ll hear from the U.S. Capitol police officer. She was one of the first law enforcement officers on the scene.
The mob went after her, she suffered this traumatic brain injury. So her testimony is going to drive home the point that the insurrection was bloody, it was violent, and it wasn`t just an attack on a building, it was an attack on human beings.
O`DONNELL: Paul butler and Barry Berke. Thank you both very much for joining our discussion tonight.
BERKE: Thank you, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: We will be right back.
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O`DONNELL: That`s tonight`s LAST WORD.
“THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE” starts now.