Updated
Summary
January 6 Committee concludes first public hearing. Jan. 6 Committee lays out its key themes. Rep. Raskin reacts to first 1/6 Public Hearing. Select committee airs previously unseen video of Jan. 6. Cheney trailing in Wyoming primary polls.
Transcript
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Good evening once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle. Tonight, the January 6 Committee concluded the first of a series of its public hearings, and the point was abundantly clear, our democracy remains in danger.
Moments from now we`ll talk to a committee member Jamie Raskin in his first interview since the hearing. There was never before seeing testimony from Trump`s inner circle, including Attorney General Bill Barr, and the former President`s daughter and Senior Adviser Ivanka Trump.
There was also disturbing new footage of the violent attack that took place on the Capitol. That Committee laid out exactly how the hearings will show that this was a culmination of an attempted coup. And they say the former president was at the absolute epicenter of it all. Here`s just some of what we saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. BENNIE THOMPSON, (D) MISSISSIPPI JAN.6 SELECT COMMITTEE CHAIR: Donald Trump, the President of the United States, spurred a mob of domestic enemies of the Constitution, to march down the Capitol and subvert American democracy.
BILL BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I made it clear, I did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff which I told the President was bullshit.
IVANKA TRUMP, PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP`S DAUGHTER AND SENIOR ADVISER: I respect the Attorney General Barr. So I accepted what he was saying.
REP. LIZ CHENEY, (R) 1/6 COMMITTEE VICE CHAIR: President Trump summoned the mob, assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack.
MIKE PENCE, (R) FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: President Trump is wrong. I had no right to overturn the election.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pat Cipollone threatened to resign.
JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: I kind of took it up to just be whining to be honest with you.
NICK QUESTED, BRITISH DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: For anyone who didn`t understand how violent that event was, I saw it, I documented it and I experienced it.
CAROLINE EDWARDS, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER: I saw friends with blood all over their faces. I was slipping in people`s blood.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: They were peaceful people. These were great people. The crowd was unbelievable. And I mentioned the word love, the love — the love in the air. I`ve never seen anything like it.
CHENEY: Tonight, I say this to my Republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible, there will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And that was just a bit of what we saw. With that, let`s get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel this evening, Jackie Alamani, Congressional Investigations Reporter for The Washington Post and an MSNBC Contributor. She was in the room during tonight`s hearing. I want to bring in former Missouri senator and MSNBC Political Analyst Claire McCaskill. And Neal Katyal joins us, Department of Justice veteran and former acting Solicitor General during the Obama administration who has argued dozens of cases before the Supreme Court.
Claire, here we go night one is done. It was brutal and damning for anyone associated with the insurrection with trying to overturn the election or even push the big lie. Do you think that committee did their job?
CLAIRE MCCASKILL, (D) MISSOURI FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I think the committee did a great job tonight. I thought Liz Cheney was particularly strong. She laid out the case. I think Neal will back me up here. It was an elegant and thorough opening statement. The jury, which is the American public, heard very clearly what Donald Trump did in terms of the big lie. And what was really compelling about it, Stephanie, is for the first time, we saw Bill Barr say that Trump`s big lie was bullshit. And I`m quoting here, everybody gets mad at me. I`m quoting the tape, we heard his daughter say, my dad`s a liar. That`s what she essentially said. She believed Bill Barr. And so when you have that on tape, that really sets the table that what this man did around the election, was trying to lie to the American people to hold on to power and there`s nothing more on American than that.
RUHLE: Among many other reasons, is that why Fox News didn`t air it tonight? Is that why Republicans don`t want us to watch. How do they push the big live tomorrow after America just saw Bill Barr say, it was bullshit?
MCCASKILL: I think they didn`t want to show it because it is — first of all, they`re implicated. I mean, they talked about Sean Hannity`s text. We know that other hosts there were texting saying have him do something and they know that Trump did nothing. Trump was sitting in that dining room watching those television screens with a violence unfolding smiling, smiling, thinking it was perfect, with no attempt may just stop the violence, or the mayhem that was going on.
[23:05:21]
RUHLE: And what did his firstborn daughter say? I believe Bill Barr.
Jackie, you have been covering this from the start. You were in the room tonight. Tell us what it was like, especially when that new video was playing?
JACKIE ALEMANY, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, Stephanie. It was a heavy night all around. Lots of new information came at people in the audience that left tears flowing and mouths open at some points. I think the less — during the moments where lawmakers weren`t talking, I think were the most powerful moments ultimately. When we heard directly from people like Caroline Edwards, who described in really shocking and graphic detail about watching her colleague Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, and his final moments. He later passed the next day in what was perhaps the most chilling moment, I think throughout the entire hearing, she — her voice was quivering at times, and she walked the audience through watching him turn as pale as a sheet of paper. And this was after she had already blacked out due to a concussion, woke up from that being out of consciousness and got back to work and ran over to the west front of the Capitol from the bike racks.
And shortly thereafter, she was then tear gas described losing her vision and then continue to describe a war scene walked the audience with a very steady voice. She was nearly emotionless at times, talking about how the people around her were bleeding throwing up. She was slipping in people`s blood is what she told the crowd this evening, was moments like that, that were really gripping, seeing that footage firsthand. The hearing was overall very visual heavy. And I think that was, you know, I think it`s the committee is able to break through to portions of the American electorate that maybe aren`t paying attention. It is those kinds of things that the video montage of the most violent episodes of the insurrection, and a really chilling and just sad testimony from people like Caroline Edwards that are going to — that`s going to ultimately break through.
RUHLE: Caroline Edwards, a police officer, not a politician.
Neal, from a legal perspective, what was your takeaway? What happens next?
NEAL KATYAL, FORMER ACTING U.S. SOLICITOR GENERAL: Well, I mean, I think first of all, just before the lawsuits, the impact of the hearing is general, because for anyone who has doubts about the hearings, and there were so many naysayers stuff. I mean, I have a question what would happen if the committee didn`t have this hearing tonight, if Congress never got a chance to speak for itself, and the hearings are about, as you say, the legal issues and the perpetrators, but they`re also a chance for Congress to draw a line in the sand and announce that violence against our democracy will never, never be met with silence.
Now legally, you know, a crime requires two things, requires criminal intent and requires a criminal act. And for criminal intent, the mens rea, I think it was really established today with respect to Donald Trump in really powerful ways. Donald Trump was told repeatedly he lost the election, he was told to by his data people he was told it by Bill Barr, his — you know, vaunted Attorney General. And most devastatingly, his own daughter thought so and said she agreed with Bill Barr, who called it bullshit. And if Bill Barr knows about anything, he knows about bullshit.
And then with respect to the criminal acts, the actus reus, you know, it was so powerful when the — when Liz Cheney showed — went through this and said Donald Trump never called anyone. He sat by while the Capitol was under attack, didn`t call the military, didn`t call the National Guard, didn`t call the justice department, didn`t call Homeland Security. Instead, it took to Pence and others to do that. And so look, I think, Liz Cheney, in particular tonight, was beyond outstanding.
I mean, I think I`m a pretty good lawyer, but she — what she did rivals, anything I`ve ever seen in any courtroom anywhere. And, you know, also just across party lines of do that. I got to say, if this country is going to make it through and get it and transcend this ridiculous partisanship, it`s acts like that, and I`m saying this about someone who used to call me, she used to run ads against me calling me a member of the Justice Department, Al-Qaeda 7 and all sorts of nonsense, and you know, it was nonsense in the past, but tonight it was exactly right on.
RUHLE: Did the American people realize that about Liz Cheney, because Liz Cheney has just been painted as this anti-Trump politician. She`s a true conservative Republican. We`re talking about Dick Cheney`s daughter. And before the insurrection, I mean she voted with Donald Trump over 90% of the time. So besides laying out a really good case tonight, did she lay out a case that reminded America that this is about democracy, not politics?
[23:10:19]
MCCASKILL: I think she was — she is the one who is constantly pointed out, this is about a notice of the Constitution, that she`s not going against Donald Trump. She`s not going in favor of the Democrats. She`s there for the Constitution. And I thought she did an elegant job of doing that tonight. And I think people do need to realize this is an act of political courage by her because she`s not from a state where she can get by have some Democrats vote for her. She`s from a state where 70% of the people in our state are Republicans.
There`s no way, there`s enough Democrats if every single Democrat shut up voted for, I don`t think there would be enough to get her over the top. If in fact, Trump`s pick in Wyoming ends up having the kind of vote totals that looks like she has right now. So the point is history is going to be kind to Liz Cheney, history is going to be cruel to other Republicans.
RUHLE: Will history — will Republicans be kind to Liz Cheney? We`re not about to see Republicans stand up and say, hey, we just watched that first hearing. We were wrong. Trump`s a bad guy. We`re with Liz, however, are you going to see the national GOP maybe start to dial back? Because they`ve been pushing hard against Liz Cheney for the last year and a half?
MCCASKILL: No way. Especially when she said what she said tonight. She`s the one who called out other Republicans and said, Donald Trump will be gone and your dishonor will stay. She`s going for it. And I don`t think the other Republicans are going to bring her back in the fold. She`s out there by herself.
RUHLE: Well, she`s not out there by herself.
MCCASKILL: No, she`s out here with the Constitution.
RUHLE: There you go, right there. She`s out there with the Constitution. Constitution has stood a lot longer and the rest of us.
MCCASKILL: That`s right.
RUHLE: Neal, watching this footage, how can you say this is anything but domestic terrorism? This is — if this isn`t domestic terrorism, I have no idea what it is.
KATYAL: I completely agree, Steph. I don`t think there`s a question about that. I think, you know, if you`re trying to defend these folks, you`d have a really hard time. I think one of the things I really liked about what the committee did, though, is they took the easy case, the domestic terrorism stuff, they didn`t dwell on it, they showed us all of the things we — you know, we — and even folks like us who watch this stuff a lot, needs to be reminded of just how horrific it was. But then they linked it to a larger story, a larger story about Donald Trump in particular, the weaving that they did of First Person testimony, and a TikTok along with Trump`s statements, I thought was particularly brilliant.
And just the other thing I want to say about the history and the colloquy you were just having with Claire a moment ago, I don`t think this is actually about Liz Cheney, and how she goes down in history. I mean, I — for me, it`s about the history of the event. I mean, memory is not an automatic process. We remember because people like Liz Cheney, fight to preserve the truth for the history books, no matter what the personal cost is. And I`m so, you know, we can`t follow — we have to follow her lead. We can`t rely on someone sitting in a library one day to uncover the truth. So what this committee is doing, what she`s doing, is bringing that out for the history books, not for her, but for all of us and our children.
RUHLE: Jackie, it wasn`t as dangerous what they did, it was wildly stupid. When you watch those insurrectionists, they were videoing themselves. I would think if I robbed a bank, I`d be sneaking in with a bag over my head and jumping into a getaway car. Did they believe that Donald Trump was going to save them? It`s amazing. It`s like some of that footage we watched was theirs.
ALEMANY: I think they did believe, Steph, that`s why many of them have actually gone to prison over the former president`s orders. You heard in that last montage that the committee showed apt to conclude the hearing insurrectionist in their own words, saying that they thought that President Trump directed them to go to the Capitol to commit these crimes. And they were just following through his orders.
But, and one of the lines that stood out to me, most actually, during the hearing was Nick Quested, the documentary filmmaker who was embedded with Enrique Tario, the leader of the Proud Boys and was with far right extremists on the day of January 6, and after he had a — you know, this violent been bloody day, embedded with them and documenting what they were doing. He said that they went in and just and got some tacos, post insurrection. And to me that really drove home this idea that the insurrection was just happening in plain sight. These people were not worried about, with the exception of Enrique Tario, who at that point in time was already a target for law enforcement. They were proudly posting on the internet and making very clear what they had been doing and it wasn`t until really, in the aftermath did some have the realization that what they had done was wrong and some still continue to deny that what they did was wrong.
[23:15:19]
But just on the topic of Liz Cheney, the other line that really stuck with me, as well during this hearing, was when she said there will come a point when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain. To me, that`s the top three of the lines that I think we heard this evening.
RUHLE: Let`s talk about that point when Donald Trump will be gone. Neal, do you think a criminal case against Trump was laid out?
KATYAL: I do. I absolutely do, as I say, requires those two things, criminal intent and a bad criminal act. And both of those I think we`re at least if not met tonight, enough evidence to really say to the Justice Department, you have to open an investigation. If you don`t have one already against Donald Trump, we know there`s an investigation generally, about January 6 than we know the Attorney General has said you`ll follow the evidence wherever it leads, charge anyone, no matter what their position of responsibility had been.
But I think now the evidence is really they`ve laid out in a really careful way what that case against Trump looks like. It`s building on, Steph, the decision by a federal judge a few months ago in California, Judge Carter, who wrote a lengthy opinion saying, after reviewing the evidence that Congress put before him, and he said, it`s more likely than not that Donald Trump committed serious felonies on January 6, and my — you know, my fervent hope is if this were anyone else, there`ll be an obvious criminal investigation going on right now at the Justice Department. And just because you`re the president, it doesn`t a former president, it doesn`t make you above the law. And if we`re not going to prosecute for something, investigate and prosecute for something like this, what are we ever going to prosecute for? What is there that`s more important than this?
RUHLE: Claire, I`m not sure what network he was watching, but I am 100% sure, Mitch McConnell was tuned in. What`s he thinking tonight? He`s no friend of Donald Trump`s?
MCCASKILL: No, he can`t stand Donald Trump hates him. He`s worried about Donald Trump`s candidates winning Republican primaries, which makes it harder for him to take back power. But you know what he`s thinking tonight, where I sure hope gas prices stay really high. That`s what he`s thinking, because he really wants to distract the American public from the reality of what we saw tonight. And how complicit they all are in allowing Trump to remain in this lock grip position of power within their party. And I think he`s hoping that the high gas prices and the inflationary pressures in our economy will be enough to make people forget, he just said to change out the debt.
RUHLE: It sets?
MCCASKILL: Well, it`s politics.
RUHLE: And do you think it`s successful? Take me — to I know we`re out of time, but I have to — take me to Missouri, taking me to Missouri, that`s your state tonight, not people who are hard red or hard blue, take me to your average family in Missouri. Are they watching?
MCCASKILL: Well, first of all — no, most of them are because my state has become very, very trumped. It is a very — he`s a very popular guy in Missouri. The vast majority Republicans call themselves Trump Republicans in Missouri. So most of them were not watching and most of them would tell you with a straight face that the election was stolen and Donald Trump won it.
RUHLE: Well, then I`m glad you spent a whole lot of time right here in New York City, Claire McCaskill. Claire McCaskill, Jackie Alemany, Neal Katyal, thank you all so much.
Coming up, January 6. Committee Member Jamie Raskin is here to share his thoughts on tonight`s hearing, his takeaway on what they accomplished and what is left to be done? The 11th Hour just getting underway on this very important Thursday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:23:35]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: There`s a reason why people serving in our government take an oath to the Constitution. As our founding fathers recognize democracy is fragile. People in positions of public trust are duty bound to defend it to step forward when action is required. In our country, we don`t swear an oath to an individual or a political party. We take our oath to defend the United States Constitution. And that oath must mean something. Tonight, I say this to my Republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible. There will come a day when Donald Trump is gone. But your dishonor will remain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: A very powerful message from the January 6 committee Vice Chair Liz Cheney tonight. Another member of the January 6 committee joins us now, Maryland Congressman Jamie Raskin. He was also the lead impeachment manager in Trump`s second impeachment trial. He`s been busy over the last two years. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. I know it has been a busy one. But it is done. I`m quite sure your Democratic colleagues have called you said it was a great night. But what I really want to know if any Republicans called you tonight?
REP. JAMIE RASKIN, (D) MARYLAND HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON JANUARY 6: I do not appear to have any texts or emails from Republican colleagues other than listen out, I think.
RUHLE: I want you to think back in time when you decided to become a lawyer maker, did you ever think that there would come a day that there would be a violent attack by Americans on our Capitol and the President of the United States would do absolutely nothing to stop it. Because that`s what you laid out for us tonight?
[23:25:15]
RASKIN: The whole thing is surreal, if you can rewind to the days before Trump was elected in 2016, because none of us ever expected a violent assault on Congress, in order to seize the presidency and steal a presidential election. But that`s what we all lived through. So it was kind of traumatizing tonight to be thrust back into that immediate period. But I think that the country comes to its senses, when people remember how utterly strange this is. Can you imagine any president of the United States from the very beginning, you know, Washington, and Adams and Jefferson and Madison and Monroe and John Quincy Adams, all the way up through Barack Obama, you know, the Bushs and Clintons. Can you imagine any president who would watch what we put on the hearing tonight, and react with anything other than absolute horror and shock. And yet, we`ve got a former president, who, not only his based his whole political ideology around a lie, a big lie that he actually is the President now, and won the election, and it`s been stolen from him, but continues to propound that and propagandize his followers with lies. And so they`re in absolute denial of all of the facts and the realities that we just made available for the entire American public to see.
RUHLE: Then given that, is it frustrating to you, when you hear over and over? What`s the programming going to be like? Will it captivate an audience? Will it keep our attention? You just laid it out for the American people? Is it not incumbent upon us to care about democracy? This isn`t the finale of the sopranos you`re putting on here?
RASKIN: Well, hey, I so appreciate that question. After so many immediate people, you know, want to know, how exciting and how compelling and how news breaking and all the bombshells and all that stuff. And I appreciate what you`re saying because, look, the reality of the situation is just clear. We had a president of the United States who tried to overthrow the presidential election that he lost in. And he tried seven different things that we`re going to lay out in new detail for people, but it ended up with a violent mob insurrectionary attack on the Capitol itself. And an attempt to coerce the Vice President of the United States to step outside of his constitutional role to nullify the Electoral College votes that had been sent in by 10s of millions of Americans.
So it was a total assault on our constitutional order. And people were asking for more excitement. And you know, what do you have next time. So in any event, we`re going to lay out with just documentary specificity, and concreteness, all of these efforts to set aside the constitutional order, overthrow the presidential election and seize the presidency. And we`re going to show what the inevitable result of that kind of autocratic and authoritarian attitude is, which is violence. And we have to ask ourselves as a country, is this what we want the 21st century to be like? I mean, do we want coos and insurrections? Do we want Civil War? Do we want bloodshed in the streets of our state capitals at the U.S. Capitol school board meetings and so on. Because, you know, people understand the way that Donald Trump used these domestic violent extremist groups, but they`ve used him too, and they have grown in power. These are groups that could only gather 500 at their unite the right rally in Charlottesville in August of 2017.
Now, they were the Vanguard stormtroopers of rallying in March of 10s of 1000s of people that turned into a mob insurrection that nearly toppled the government of the United States and overthrew an election. That`s a pretty heady experience for these people. But we`ve got to make sure that`s the end of it, and that we`re not going to dissolve into violence, clans all over America, that can`t be the future of the greatest multiracial, multi- ethnic, multi-religious, constitutional democracy that ever existed. We got to keep growing as a democracy. So we`ve got to fortify our institutions.
RUHLE: But sir, this isn`t a trial. What can you do, what everyone saw tonight is as awful as you could possibly imagine, what can the committee recommend because that`s what you can do, you can — what can you recommend that would prevent another January 6?
[23:30:13]
RASKIN: Well, we`re going to have a very broad series of recommendations. We haven`t settled on all of them yet. But some of the prominent things that are being discussed are amendments to the Electoral Count Act, to make sure that nobody can nullify the popular vote of the people in the States, within the electoral college system. There are those of us who have believed that the Electoral College system is itself a danger, and certainly a threat to democratic values. And that I don`t know whether we`ll be able to get unanimity in the committee around that. But I think everybody should agree that we need to defend the right to vote at every level and defend the integrity of our elections, against proliferating efforts at subverting election integrity that are taking place in a lot of states around the union. So we got to work on that.
And then there are things that we can do, obviously, to physically fortify the Capitol. So that, you know, certainly the windows should be shatterproof. So, extremists don`t think that we`re a soft target in that way. And, you know, that there will be a whole series of things that we can do, and I think we will take effective action here. But ultimately, democracy is in the hands of the people all over America. And we`ve got to fortify democratic values in every State of the Union.
RUHLE: I know I`m at a time but then I have to ask you can make recommendations. You know, who can go further? The Department of Justice, you went to Harvard Law, Merrick Garland was watching tonight, did you lay out enough that the Department of Justice will simply have to act now?
RASKIN: Well, we`re furnishing greater and greater specificity and factual detail to the kinds of things that Judge Carter in California said months ago now justified the belief that Donald Trump likely had committed Federal offenses, and he laid them out that Donald Trump was likely involved in a conspiracy to interfere with a federal proceeding, a conspiracy to defraud the people of America of our election.
Look, I think that the most effective thing that we did this evening was to demonstrate beyond any doubt in anybody`s mind that all of this was based on Donald Trump`s determination to keep the presidency based on a big lie, because the claims of electoral fraud and corruption irregularity were all thrown out by more than 60 federal and state courts, including eight judges, Donald Trump nominated himself, and they were rejected by every federal department that Donald Trump went to and yet, he`s hell bent determination on staying in office is what made this whole sequence of horrific events unfold.
RUHLE: Congressman, thank you for joining me tonight. I know it has been a very long day. Congressman Jamie Raskin from the state of Maryland, thank you.
Coming up, we`ll have even more of what we heard from former president`s inner circle right there on the screen right now. You were looking at the first daughter and senior adviser to Trump, Ivanka Trump. You know who she believed, Bill Barr, not her father. Why all of this matters, when the 11th hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:38:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARR: Repeatedly told the president in no uncertain terms that I did not see evidence of fraud and — you know, that would have affected the outcome of the election. And frankly, a year and a half later, I haven`t seen anything to change my mind on that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did that affect your perspective about the election when Attorney General Barr made that statement?
I. TRUMP: It affected my perspective. I respect Attorney General Barr. So I accepted what he was saying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Some of the most powerful elements of tonight`s committee presentation come from those very people. The former President`s most loyal allies, including his Attorney General, and his daughter.
With us tonight, MSNBC Political Contributor Matthew Dowd, former George W. Bush Strategist and Founder of Country Over Party and former Florida Republican, Congressman Carlos Curbelo. He was a member of the Republican Congress conference for the first two years of the Trump presidency.
Matt, what does this do to the power and the brand of Trump going forward, pushing the big lie, looking to run again, when now we have all of this video of his innermost circle saying he was full of it?
MATTHEW DOWD, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST TO BUSH-CHENEY CAMPAIGN: Well, I think the big problem in America today is become much bigger than Donald Trump. I mean, I think obviously, people need to be held accountable. And I think that`s a step in that. I mean, in order to get there, you got to have the truth and then you got to have accountability. And then you can get to a point which we all want where the country can reconcile, and we can get past this, you know, non-militarized civil war that we`re in right now at this point, though, that what happened at the capitol in my view, is as bad as anything in our country has had since the Civil War. They`ve since the opening shot of the Civil War. But I think this virus or this cancer has festered in the Republican Party so now that if Donald Trump went away, it`s still a problem, because there`s still a majority of the Republican Party that believes in the big lie, that pushes us more towards autocracy each day, that doesn`t seem to have an allegiance to the Constitution in the course of this.
[23:40:24]
And so yes, we absolutely need to do this for posterity. We absolutely do need to keep our eye on the ball and the threats to our democracy, including this one and the ongoing threats to our democracy. But the problem is much deeper now than Donald Trump. It has festered in a major political party. And that`s troublesome for our country.
RUHLE: Not long ago, both of you gentlemen were proud members of that party. Carlos, take me to those who know better, we see in that new video, staff members, staff members on Kevin McCarthy`s team running for their lives. And now the guy who they work for is trying to discredit the whole thing.
FORMER REP. CARLOS CURBELO, (R) FLORIDA: Well, Steph, and we heard Kevin McCarthy`s own words immediately after riot.
RUHLE: OK. But you know these people, what are they saying behind closed? Like they`re in a bar right now watching this? What are they saying?
CURBELO: Anyone who and anyone who talks to most Republicans in private, they all agree that this was a big lie. They agree with Ivanka Trump or anyone that has any doubt, I think tonight, the fact that the president`s daughter does not believe him, I mean, that should answer any question or any doubt that anyone has in these House Republicans, almost all I`m not going to say all of them. There might be a handful of true believers there. But almost all of them know that this is a massive lie. They know it led to this horrible insurrection this mob that attacked the Capitol. They`re just trying to survive. They put their political survival above the truth.
But to differ with Matt a little bit, I do think the tide is turning. We didn`t get to talk about it much because of Uvalde understandably but —
RUHLE: So talk about it.
CURBELO: — what happened in Georgia is a big deal, a big deal, the truth won over Trump`s lie in Georgia. We saw that in California to a lesser degree in Tuesday`s primaries, the tide is turning. I really think the truth is gaining ground.
RUHLE: All right, then, if the tide is really turning, is leading to Georgia, Raffensperger won, Brian Kemp won, you know who was standing with them? Mike Pence. Is Mike Pence about to stand up and testified before this committee? Unlikely.
CURBELO: Well, I don`t know if he`ll testify before the committee but he has spoken before the American people. He has told the American people that Donald Trump lied. He is lined up with Liz Cheney with Adam Kinzinger, with Mitch McConnell to a lesser degree. McConnell has also said by the way, McConnell has not dismissed this committee. McConnell said that this committee`s work is important and that he was looking forward to hearing from it.
RUHLE: Mr. Dowd, I watched video, hearing people say hang Mike Pence, I looked at wooden frames with nooses hanging. Do you really think Mike Pence has come out and stood up and said this was wrong? What happened to me because I don`t feel like I`ve heard it?
DOWD: I mean, I`ve criticized Mike Pence over a number of things and how much he`s just acquiesce to Donald Trump over the course of the last five or six years. I think in this instance, he did stand strong, you have to give him credit. He stood strong as the committee laid out, he stood strong under an immense pressure from the president United States and a number of other Republicans that Mike Pence wants to be friends with, if he has any political future, Mike Pence in that moment, you can criticize him for a lot of other things, in that moment, he stood strong in the midst of that.
I do think, and I`m — listen, I`m with Carlos, I look for any ray of light, that there`s rationality in the Republican Party, and then we`ll return to a rational political party that actually believes in true conservative principles in the Constitution. And I look for any array and I think Georgia is array. The problem is there`s a lot more rays of darkness. I mean, what happened in we basically a big lie supporter is the nominee of the Republicans in Pennsylvania. JD Vance is the nominee of big lie supporter, is the nominee for U.S. Senate in Ohio.
So, and look what`s going on in Michigan, we have a Secretary of State candidates and nut Republicans can`t seem to get out of fraud as for governor, the Attorney General candidate, push the big lie. Donald Trump endorsed him in all of this. And so yes, let`s look for the rays of light. The problem is that the Republican leaders in Congress are more concerned, as Carlos said about their political future. And leaders are supposed to lead people, they`re not just supposed to follow the worst instincts of people. And today, the worst instincts of people are being reflected by the leadership in the Republican Party, not all but by the leadership in the Republican Party. And that`s a problem. They`re not telling the truth to their voters overwhelmingly they`re not telling the truth to their voters.
[23:45:00]
RUHLE: Well, Mike Pence did certify the election, Brian Kemp stood against Trump, Brad Raffensperger stood against Trump and Joe Biden is in the White House.
DOWD: Liz Cheney.
RUHLE: Yes, both of these guests are staying with us, we`re going to take a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RUHLE: Back with us Matthew Dowd, Carlos Curbelo.
Matthew, before we — before I cut you off before the break, you made sure you were given a shout out to Liz Cheney. She is pretty far behind in the polls in Wyoming, what she has done for the American people tonight, is that going to help or hurt her?
[23:50:09]
DOWD: Well, I mean, I think Liz Cheney`s goal is public service. I mean, I work with Liz Cheney in 2000 and 2004. I`ve had criticisms of Liz Cheney related to the Iraq War, and related a number of other things I`ve had of her, but I don`t — I think she`s much more worried. I mean, much more concerned about how what happens with our democracy and our Constitution and her political life.
I don`t — I mean, she is behind as far as I can tell, she is behind. I don`t dismiss the odds of her winning in that. I think her appeal to principled conservatism is still does well, but as I said earlier, she knows she`s putting her political life on the line and doing is on behalf of the constitution of United States of America and our democracy. And she`s willing to lose her office, because that`s not the most important thing she holds dear. What she holds dear is our country.
RUHLE: She rather stand to the Constitution than Wyoming. Carlos, when you watch tonight, it`s unclear if it helped the committee or if it helped Democrats, but it definitively did not help Donald Trump. If you`re in Florida tonight, that`s your home state, if you`re Ron DeSantis. Are you watching this and seeing the lane get even clearer or wider for you to take on Trump in 2024?
CURBELO: Tonight was —
RUHLE: Democrats laid out a whole lot of attack ads tonight.
CURBELO: Tonight was definitely a great night for any rival of Donald Trump within the Republican Party. They won`t criticize him publicly. They don`t want to be associated with this committee because they don`t like the way Nancy Pelosi put it together. But tonight was embarrassing for Donald Trump to have his daughter on national television, calling him a liar essentially siding with Bill Barr, who said what Trump was repeating was BS. I mean, for Ron DeSantis this is a wonderful night. This weakens Trump, it diminishes him. So DeSantis rode the Trump wave. He`s gotten off now, probably at the right time.
RUHLE: Matthew, do you think enough American people care about this?
DOWD: Well, I think that`s up to us, in part, and that`s up to the candidates running to make the argument about what this election is about, I think. I actually think that the direction of this committee was less about 150 million voters or 110 million voters, was more about how all of us, what level of importance we put on certain issues. And I get inflation is troublesome, and I get the price of gasoline is not going in the right direction. But if you look at the hierarchy of issues, our democracy should be above those and I think —
RUHLE: OK. But Matthew, I didn`t ask should —
DOWD: And I think that`s the argument they`re making.
RUHLE: But I didn`t ask should, when you walk into a bar in Texas Tomorrow night, the guy sitting next to you, is going to be talking about the hearing or gas prices?
DOWD: But he`s probably going to be talking about the Texas Rangers or the Houston Astros, in all likelihood, that`s what he`s going to be talking about, or hoping the Dallas Cowboys can somehow pull out a season next season despite all the efforts. That`s what they`re going to be talking about. But I think it`s up to us. And it`s up to leaders of the — of both political parties who stand on principle to make an argument over the next 152 days about what this is about.
RUHLE: Well, if they liked the Cowboys, what do you call the Cowboys, America`s team might want to care about democracy.
DOWD: I don`t call them American team. I`m not a Cowboy fan.
RUHLE: Matthew Down, Carlos Curbelo, thank you so much for joining us tonight, I really appreciate you being here.
Coming up, a very timely reminder of what tonight is truly all about. It`s not about politics. It is about protecting and preserving our great democracy, when the 11th Hour continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:58:03]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KANDISS TAYLOR, (R) GEORGIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Hey, everybody, so I have good news. We are going to prove that we have more votes than were recorded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, rigged, rinse, repeat. Georgia Republican gubernatorial candidate Kandiss Taylor, you just saw her on your screen. You didn`t know who she was. I didn`t know who she was. But here`s why it`s important. She ran notably on Jesus, guns and babies platform. Well, she lost her primary 16 days ago. And when I say she lost, she lost big time. She got a measly 3.4% of the vote way behind David Perdue and way, way, way behind the incumbent Brian Kemp, yet being the Trump loyalists that she is she knew exactly what to do next. She is now refusing to concede claiming the election was rigged. Her campaign spokesperson told The Daily Beast, “We have a national data team working on the 2022 primary election fraud, more will be forthcoming.”
Yeah, here`s the thing. She has got a plan to prove that she actually received more votes than the election officials say, a big plan. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAYLOR: But so if you voted for me, if you cast a vote early, if you cast a vote on election day, or if you voted by absentee, I`m going to need you to do an affidavit when it`s notarized with your signature. And it`s you stating and attesting to the fact that you voted for me in the Republican primary in 2022, then that is going to stand up legally. So they actually, were trying to make me look stupid, and it`s going to come back to bite them because we`re going to have way more than that, an affidavits to show that we have more votes than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: No it is not, it is nonsense, it is silly, it is not a foolproof plan. You`re going to forget her name tomorrow. I`m going to forget her name in 10 minutes. But here`s why it matters, because in all seriousness, while this woman is going to go away, the theatrics she is performing right now, they will not. And that is exactly why these January 6 hearings are so very important to our country. If there are no meaningful consequences for all the gaslighting, the false claims for the blatant attempt to overturn elections, even more politicians are going to try to follow Trump`s dangerous playbook in the future. And democracy as we know it, is on the line.
And on that really important and really serious note that everyone must care about, I wish you all a very good and very safe night. Thank you so much for being here. From all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, I thank you for staying up late. And I will see all of you at the end of tomorrow.