Updated
Summary
Former Trump White House aide arrested today for defying congressional subpoena from House committee investigating the January 6th insurrection. Trump former aide, Peter Navarro, was arrested then appeared hours later in court. Two Trump allies are facing criminal consequences. Republican Congressman Louie Gohmert is responding to the Navarro news by warning that it imperils people’s ability to lie to Congress.
Transcript
JOHN HEILEMANN, MSNBC HOST: Thank you for indulging me and being patient with me and hanging out with me this week. I know how much you miss Nicolle. And she’ll be back on Monday. I will miss you, though. And right now THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER begins — we just had him on the show, he’s now someplace else.
Ari, great to see you. I know what you’re going to talk about all night. Go get them.
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Perhaps. Good to see you, John. Thank you so much.
Welcome to THE BEAT. We begin with breaking news.
Former Trump aide Peter Navarro indicted today by the Justice Department on two counts, contempt of Congress for the way that he has defied repeatedly and publicly the insurrection probe. This is big news whether you follow it here on MSNBC where Mr. Navarro has been a guest or anyone, really in the Trump world or around the nation because this is a Trump White House adviser indicted for issues related to the insurrection.
Here’s how it all played out today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA MITCHELL, MSNBC HOST: The breaking news just moments ago involving former top Trump White House official Peter Navarro.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Peter Navarro has now been criminally indicted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The DOJ indicted him on two counts of contempt of Congress.
CHRIS JANSING, MSNBC HOST: And former adviser Peter Navarro is at this hour in federal custody and about to make a court appearance.
KATY TUR, MSNBC HOST: He was issued a subpoena in February to produce documents and appear before the committee in March, but refused to do either.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow. They cuffed him, took him out. Serious business here.
ELIE HONIG, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: This is very bad news for Peter Navarro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are keeping an eye on the federal courthouse down in Washington, D.C. where Navarro is currently before a judge.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And that’s how the news played out all afternoon across all the news channels because this is just a huge development. Navarro in court today. You can see the sketches. He told the judge that he thought it was unfair that he was unable to make a phone call after his arrest. He came out to speak to reporters and he used that appearance, you see him there, this was just within the last couple of hours, to complain about the way that the feds treated him.
He was apprehended and arrested at the airport. He said, at the, quote, “door of the airplane.” He discussed the way he was put in handcuffs and leg irons. That’s what happens when you are arrested in this matter if you defy a lawful subpoena to this degree.
We actually have more on that aspect later in the program. But I want to give you all the big news first. The DOJ filed this indictment under seal yesterday. Indeed, that was right before he appeared on THE BEAT last night and they said that would be done until the government’s arrest operation was executed. Now that is the most aggressive way to deal with a potential arrest, and the reasoning was approved by a judge who said that basically Navarro’s conduct up until now meant that there was reasonable grounds to suspect that he might flee.
Tamper with witnesses or evidence, that’s a new crime, if he did it, or destroy evidence. Also separately a new crime. So today beyond Merrick Garland’s Justice Department who also had a judge view that risk as serious. For comparison, that did not happen to Steve Bannon. That did not happen in every arrest in the Mueller probe. That is a show of force by the government and the view by this government that Mr. Navarro must be treated like a legal fugitive.
Now I mentioned that we now know, because this was under seal, what we didn’t know last night. That when Mr. Navarro appeared here for what was his third interview, discussed these issues on THE BEAT, he was already under sealed indictment. He did say, though, at the time that he thought he was in some kind of discussions with the Justice Department.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE AIDE: I’m in negotiations, discussions, with them about that.
MELBER: As of today you are discussing with the Justice Department turning over those records?
NAVARRO: No. What I did was, they’re — let me say this very carefully. I had responded to the Justice Department, and there will be ongoing interactions on that to be determined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was exactly 24 hours ago. This hour last night. In the ensuing 24 hours Mr. Navarro has seen where that goes. He has been put in handcuffs and leg irons. He was dramatically arrested at the airport. Whether or not he understands the gravity that he’s facing, whether anything changes in the coming days, only time will tell. He would face up to two years in prison if convicted on these counts.
He also faces a separate grand jury subpoena for cooperating with that separate probe. We don’t know where that leads, but rhetorically Mr. Navarro talked about the fact that federal prosecutors were involved, that they do send people to jail, and here’s what he said about the risk.
[18:05:08]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: This is why I’m fighting.
MELBER: OK. So let me respond.
NAVARRO: This is why I’m willing to go to jail for this, Ari.
MELBER: Let me respond to you and —
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That’s why he’s fighting and prepared to go to jail. We update this chart which yesterday showed that he had faced a subpoena from the grand jury and contempt like these other four. But now it is only Mr. Bannon and Mr. Navarro who have both been indicted pursuant to the probe. Those other two individuals have not. Hearings regarding the insurrection and the investigative findings the January 6th Committee will begin next week.
And on this newsworthy night, we begin with two former federal prosecutors who know exactly how these cases work. John Flannery and Barbara McQuade.
Welcome to both of you. John, what do you think is significant about how the Justice Department is dealing with Mr. Navarro? And did his conduct and actions contribute to the assertive arrest maneuver that was made today?
JOHN FLANNERY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Peter Navarro would have struck Justice, made no bones about it, as recently as last night when you spoke with him, and then he is surprised that he’s arrested for what he’s admitted to on the air? I think this indictment says, no, you don’t get away with such acts. The nation needed this because we need an accounting and we’ve begun a process to have that.
MELBER: Hmm. Barbara?
BARBARA MCQUADE, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTION: Yes. I think, Ari, the Justice Department would do well to have you simply invite Peter Navarro to come on your show. He’s now come on your show I think at least three times and confessed to this crime. But I note that in the motion to seal this arrest warrant they said that they were concerned not only about risk of flight but also about tampering with evidence, or tampering with witnesses.
And so for all of those reasons they thought it best to arrest him, rather than have him voluntarily surrender. I think he has shown himself to be irrational and a bit of a loose cannon. And so I think for safety and integrity of the investigation, an arrest in this situation was appropriate.
MELBER: Appreciate both of your straightforward answers on that. On the wider investigation, what everyone thinks of Mr. Navarro and his conduct thus far, John, what does it tell you that he is both indicted here, arrested today for the reasons I just went through, and also of interest to the DOJ with the grand jury subpoena for the evidence he has in the wider probe?
FLANNERY: I think that’s very significant, and what we have learned from at least “The Guardian,” I haven’t seen the subpoena that is at issue in the grand jury, but it sounds like the thing they’re interested in is his communications with Trump. In other words, the head of the snake. And I think that’s important. If you’re going to test the hypothesis, who was involved and where were they involved?
What did he know and when did he know it? That kind of argument. Takes us back to Watergate. So I think that’s significant and that suggests that if they’re asking him this question they’re asking others that question, and that’s the tremendous advance, if that’s what it means.
MELBER: Hmm. And Barbara, Mr. Navarro has of course been more valuable than many. He also at times seems to be speaking very forthrightly. I covered and went through the lawsuit he filed, which he has every right to do, a civil suit about this, but he was representing himself, and he spoke last night what he views as the stakes and at his age the amount of jail time that he might be facing. Again, we only now know this was — he’d already been indicted which he didn’t know when he said this. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: The seriousness for me, Ari, is, you know, the average life span in America for an American male is 76 years old. If I were to go to prison for a year, which is what the contempt of charge could do to me, that would be about a fourth of my remaining life, and there would be a fine that would take a significant portion of my retirement savings, so I’m taking this very seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He says that, Barbara, as a human being, that he’s looking at those stakes. What do you say to that concern that he has, and why our system gives people avenues to both cooperate, litigate, debate the requests they receive, but ultimately in a nation of laws the fact that you know the former president or think you’re important is not supposed to release you from the same obligations others have. Right, Barbara?
MCQUADE: The reason he’s looking at potential prison time is because he has refused to comply with a subpoena. Everyone has a right to a defense and if he wants to assert a rigorous defense in court he is entitled to do that. He’s presumed innocent. On the other hand, we know from his own admissions he received a grand jury subpoena from the Justice Department a week ago because he disclosed it. He said that he — disclosed it as part of a filing where he was challenging his subpoena from Congress.
[18:10:00]
We know that the date because he disclosed it for complying with that subpoena was yesterday morning, June 2nd, at 9:00 a.m. Later that day he was indicted because he failed to comply not only with Congress’ subpoena but also DOJ’s grand jury subpoena. And so he made it very clear that he had no remorse, no — I also noticed in the questions, there were, you know, he said he was working to resolve this. So you’re in discussions to resolve this now? And he kind of backtracked and said, well, no, that’s not really what’s going on here.
I think taking a stand in a case like this after they clearly have fully explored whether cooperation was an option, he clearly was not interested in going down that path. The Justice Department had no choice but to hold him accountable. This is not an effort to coerce his testimony at this point. This is an effort to punish him, to tell people around the world that you need to comply with congressional subpoenas when they’re served, otherwise Congress loses that power.
And so that’s a very important part of what’s happening here. And by the way, he’s not looking at one year in prison, which is a quarter of his remaining — expected life. He’s looking at potentially two years in prison because he was charged in two counts that could be served consecutively. So I guess that’s half of his remaining life.
MELBER: Exactly. As you say, with the data that he was doing.
John, I have just about one minute left. But some headlines that came out of last night’s interview were basically also about the legal privilege he doesn’t have. In the middle, you see Trump doesn’t have your back because, John, he’s talking about a privilege the president hasn’t asserted. Will that matter if this goes to trial, briefly?
FLANNERY: I don’t believe it will make any difference at all, and you know, him posing as victim for misconduct that he does not deny, that’s a pretty weak argument. As weak as this privilege argument, which has been thrown out in several cases, and we have — Biden makes that determination. He hasn’t. Trump hasn’t made the determination right or wrong. So there is none. And the privilege runs to the president. It doesn’t run to Peter Navarro.
MELBER: Right. You both walked us through this very clearly. You both have been federal prosecutors, dealing with exactly these type of situations. And Barbara I think makes a point worth underscoring that we’re going to explore later in the broadcast, which is when you look at this kind of punitive move by the feds, it’s not the first thing they do, it’s not the second. But when they get to this point dealing with someone in this manner what they are saying is no person is above the law. That’s certainly a principle that has been tested in the era for the president that Mr. Navarro once served.
Barbara McQuade, John Flannery, I want to thank both of you.
And I want to tell you what’s coming up because this has been a busy news week and a busy news night here. We have a special report. I’m going to walk through with you what Peter Navarro said and did, and why it matters in the wider effort to stage a coup to rob you of your democracy. It is that serious and I will try to answer a question that some of you have asked me when I’ve run into MSNBC viewers.
Why does Mr. Navarro come on the program? What is he saying? We’re going to get into all that seriously because this matters for democracy.
And tonight, Michael Cohen, a former lawyer for Donald Trump, who also had been in the soup and the thick challenges of these kind of investigations is my guest on set, in-person here tonight on THE BEAT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:17:42]
MELBER: We’re checking the breaking news upending Washington and Trump world today. Former White House aide Peter Navarro indicted and arrested for defying the January 6th probe. Now we went through the latest news at the top of the hour. Now for a special report, I want to turn with you to how we got here.
This is truly extraordinary. It’s a path that has few precedents in history but it may also offer clues to where these cases are headed along with the wider insurrection probe. Of course, there’s the track in the DOJ and Congress, where those key hearings will begin next week.
But things look different now than they did when this all started. So we’re going to go back right now to that tense and odd period right after Trump officially lost the election. And then he kept losing those lawsuits, which tried to challenge his loss.
Whatever you think of Rudy Giuliani’s advocacy, Mr. Giuliani did have the legal right to file all of those lawsuits, and he had the right to go to those legislative hearings, but as the courts continued to close the doors, slamming them shut, judges from both parties appointed by different presidents, it was a dead end.
So something else started to take shape and as is so often the case in news or history, it wasn’t 100 percent clear at the time. But some of those Trump lawyers started to go soft or try to leave. Some Trump appointees like Bill Barr were out of there. Trump was a lame duck losing one term.
But then something else started to happen. More extreme members of that last almost sort of dead ender Trump circle they started pushing plans that had nothing to do with the law or the courts. That did not exercise the rights, as I mentioned to people like Mr. Giuliani to file suits or even lie in public which whether we like it or not is something you’re allowed to do.
No. People started talking about things you are not allowed to do. Talking about things that end democracies. Talking about things that cost people their lives. Trying to abuse power through a coup. So the pitch went from talking up fraud that didn’t exist to some Trump allies saying, wait. Even if we lost the election and even if we lost all the court cases, and even if the Supreme Court won’t help, maybe we can just get Mike Pence and the Congress to reverse the results, cancel the election, steal it for Trump.
[18:20:06]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNA ELLIS, FORMER TRUMP LEGAL TEAM: Our strategy is to make sure that we continue to challenge all of these false and fraudulent results.
BORIS EPSHTEYN, FORMER TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISER: The vice president has got a lot of power and that’s very important to recognize.
STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP SENIOR AIDE: That’s a huge deal. I keep saying the mantra. You call the play, now run the play now. Right? It’s like the old Green Bay power sweep. It’s very simple and very — just one thing that leads to another. Very logical. End it. Victory is affirmed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: I just showed you two relatively obscure Trump aides and an ex-aide Steve Bannon moving towards what I’m telling you about. They were out of power. Bannon was. But he was publicly pushing for action on January 6th that would magically and illegally overthrow the election.
Now before the insurrection we witnessed that stuff looked honestly random, embarrassing, fanciful, and in a piece of news that at the time looked good for Donald Trump’s potential liability, back then those were people mostly outside the White House pushing this kind of talk, but here’s what we know now. Here’s why this is such a big news story tonight.
There were people inside the White House onboard with this. As Bill Barr bolted Navarro stepped up and he later confessed that he was the inside man trying to push the coup attempt or sweep. It wasn’t until November ’21 that Navarro would himself write about some of this in a wider memoir about his time in the administration but that led to questions about how the sweep would work. Who else was considering joining it?
We reported on that. We asked Navarro to come face the questions and he did. Essentially confirming what Bannon had pitched from the outside.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: We had over 100 congressmen and senators on Capitol Hill ready to implement the sweep.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: So when Navarro was not publicly part of Trump’s election defenders in late 2020 he might have actually been more pivotal. And again everyone loves to tell you they know everything. This was not known in public at the time. So the others were doing those press conferences but Navarro we now know was quietly plotting in secret and he was getting others on board, and encouraging state legislature to overturn the results.
They had a suspicious call on January 2nd with some of Trump’s team, with allegedly Trump himself, important, and very consequentially, hundreds of state legislators. This is in Navarro’s contempt report which I’ll get to but he told them allegedly, quote, “Your job is to take action.”
And you know what else happened on January 2nd? That was four days out from the insurrection. Some people may or may not remember this. But this is important. You might even hear about it next week in these hearings if they go through the timeline because that same day that we now know Navarro was secretly trying to get partisan help on the ground to steal the election in states that Trump lost, well, Trump was dialing up one of those states, same day. This is what put him under criminal investigation even now.
Calling the secretary of state in Georgia, demanding massive voter fraud. Find me votes. Congress began investigating this. We have all these different strands, what was the rally really trying to do? What about these fraudulent electors, the state legislators I just mentioned you, trying to get Pence involved? And initially questions were focusing on Trump aides and of course Bannon and Meadows. They both fought the House probe and both were held in contempt. One indicted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: The grand jury now has indicted Steve Bannon for contempt of Congress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For spurning subpoenas to answer questions and provide documents that the House Select Committee investigating the deadly riot.
GARRETT HAAKE, NBC NEWS SENIOR CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT: The fate of Mark Meadows now lies in the hands of the Justice Department. This after the House voted to hold Donald Trump’s former chief of staff in contempt of Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was late last year. And that was coming into view. Why are certain people so intent on hiding and running? And are they the same people who were involved in something so bad that at the time they didn’t want to talk about it in public. They had this secret plot. So here on MSNBC we pressed Navarro on what was it? Exactly what was he trying to do?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: We had over 100 congressmen and senators on Capitol Hill ready to implement the sweep. We were going to challenge the results of the election in six battleground states. We were following the Constitution and rules of the Senate to simply get a recount of what the votes were.
MELBER: Do you realize you are describing a coup?
NAVARRO: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He says no. This will be adjudicated. The January 6th Committee would later cite that very interview as evidence. Those were one of the few times that, again, Navarro was publicly pressed on the plan. It’s a very different way to garner information than just reading what he writes without being pressed on it or the other place where MAGA fans had been hearing him, which isn’t really an interview, but more a public strategy session where he and his co-plotter, Bannon, talk up these schemes.
[18:25:12]
It was this moment that came one day after Meadows was held in contempt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: You are the hero on January 6th, Steve. You were the guy who had the Green Bay Packers sweep strategy to go up to Capitol Hill. Pence is the quarterback. Then we had 100 people working on the Green Bay team. There’s linemen, halfbacks and fullbacks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Bragging about overthrowing the government in public seems audacious, even for Steve Bannon and even if you sprinkle in this incessant need to do sports analogies. But as they say, whatever. They both knew there were open probes going on. They both have government experience and litigation and investigation is part of modern governance. But they went out there, I want to show you this.
We’ve shown you some of THE BEAT interview. But I want to show you the path here. They went out there and literally taunted Congress as feckless and acting without consequences.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BANNON: There’s been no outreach from 6th January Commission for — and here’s the reason. Because, Peter Navarro, the first thing you’ll send over is hey, put this in the official record, which would be the Navarro report.
NAVARRO: That is —
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: The dog that didn’t bark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The dog that didn’t bark. No outreach. Bannon saying the government had not reached Navarro yet and they drew their conclusions from that. At the time maybe it was unclear if the government ever would get to Navarro. But the dog barked. Its barked more than once. First hitting Navarro with a House subpoena. He defied that. Again, in looking for answers we go to the sources whenever we can. We ask the questions, we’ve invited him on to discuss the choice to take it this far, to defy. And he came and shared his view of legal privilege.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Why risk a legal battle or going to jail to refuse to discuss them with the committee under oath?
NAVARRO: The president has invoked executive privilege. It’s not my privilege to waive.
MELBER: Do you understand that you’ve already waived it by discussing it.
NAVARRO: No, no, no. Stop right there, Ari.
MELBER: They want it under oath.
NAVARRO: That’s not what happened.
MELBER: And number two, finally, Peter, are you prepared to risk indictment for defying the subpoena?
NAVARRO: I’ll stand tall on this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: He kept defying. Unlike, say, Giuliani or other aides who cooperated. The committee barked again. He’s now, Navarro, just one of four held in contempt and House investigators in the contempt proceeding noted that he shredded his own privilege case by talking about this in public. As they make the case against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): He has so much knowledge to share with the journalists but he refuses to share that knowledge in response to a lawful subpoena.
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): He’s written a book boasting about his role in planning and coordinating the activity of January 6th.
REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D-TX): He’s given multiple television interviews regarding our subpoena. He’s failed to comply with our investigation.
CHENEY: Mr. Navarro insists that he is above the law.
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): This is America. And there’s no executive privilege here for presidents much less trade advisers to plot coups. The courts aren’t buying it and neither are we.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: The House held him in contempt after that. And then questions swirled both from members of that committee I just showed you and analysts about whether Attorney General Garland’s DOJ would act.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC ANCHOR: What’s the holdup at the Department of Justice?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The Department of Justice has a duty to act on this referral and others we have sent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That was March, which isn’t that long ago. Then Navarro filed his lawsuit against the committee. And now we’re up to this last couple of weeks because in that recent lawsuit, Navarro dropped a bombshell. He himself revealed that the Justice Department had hit him with a new criminal grand jury subpoena with the deadline of yesterday. Navarro did not apparently complied with that but he did join me for a third interview. That’s yesterday last night which would be his last interview before today’s indictment.
Now I want to show you something that we’re about to report for the first time tonight because it’s all brand new. And it goes into this context. In the final countdown to today’s assertive arrests Navarro was of course facing that deadline of yesterday. When he didn’t show up he was indicted under seal. And if you look at that actual magistrate document here, which I’m going to keep on the screen for you, this is dated June 2nd. But you see under the highlighted there it comes in at 16:34 military time. That’s 4:34 p.m.
The judge approving treating Navarro like a fugitive because of the risk of flight or tampering, which is a new crime. That this would stay under seal until they got him, which they did at the airport. That’s 16: 34. It’s two hours before Navarro would join us on air last night. So according to the filing, keep in mind when he was saying these things last night, he was already under secret indictment which makes last night’s interview, unlike any we’ve done with him or any we’ve ever done. While under sealed indictment not knowing that he would wake up the next morning and be arrested at an airport handcuffed and shackled. He was telling us last night things like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, FORMER TRUMP AIDE: I have responded to the Justice Department and there will be ongoing interactions on that to be determined. If I were to go to prison for a year, which is what the contempt of charge could do to me, that would be about a fourth of my remaining life.
This is why I’m frightened —
(CROSSTALK)
MELBER: OK. So let me respond. Let me respond to you. And —
NAVARRO: I’ll take Biden and every single senior staff member in there —
MELBER: And do one — and do one.
NAVARRO: — with subpoenas. And we’ll start with the impeachment of Biden.
MELBER: You do realize these investigators can hear you when you talk on TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: And they can. And the road is to what you see on your screen indicted today. Now half of the people who’ve tried to defy the committee have been indicted. We don’t know if the others await further processing or might be somehow trying to reach an accommodation.
And hours after that this morning, basically hours later from this development, Navarro was arrested then appeared hours later in court. I want to show you this. This is brand-new airing for the first time. He walked out of that court proceeding after everything that got us to this point, and said that it was unfair for the government to treat him this way, to treat him like some defiant fugitive that they could have called him and asked him to peacefully come in, rather than arrest him, handcuff him, and shackle him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: Well, I was on my way to Nashville today, what did they do? They didn’t call me, instead they called me and say, hey, we need you down at court. We’ve got a warrant for you. We’re glad we come. What did they do? They intercepted me getting on the plane. I mean, they put me in handcuffs, they bring me here, they put me in leg irons, they stick me in a cell. That’s punitive. That — what they did to me today violated the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Mr. Navarro there seemingly upset, saying he would have followed the government’s request when he is being indicted on two felony counts for publicly defying the government’s requests. This is larger than any one case or one person indeed, whatever one thinks of Mr. Navarro and his voluble style. That mindset permeated the last administration.
Donald Trump had more aids indicted and convicted than any modern president since Nixon. And unlike Nixon, where the Republican Party and much of the country then rejected and adjusted after Watergate, there was campaign finance reform, Nixon was out in the hustings. There was a whole actual accountability movement that course through our politics and our laws.
Now, today, there are more people on the far right in the Navarro camp. The law doesn’t apply to them, they are above it, and they are genuinely earnestly angry, if it is even attempted to be applied to them. This is more than privilege. This is more than arrogance. This is part of a political movement that has rallied around someone we know flout of the law. Courts can decide whether he broke it, Mr. Trump, but a movement that celebrates this. This is what America is up against. And I assure you, it is a nonpartisan problem about whether law and order and democracy holds or not. That’s what this is about.
We have our shortest break in the program at 60 seconds. When we come back, we get into what else we’re learning today. And then our special guest, former Trump lawyer and witness, Michael Cohen, is back with us, all that. I’ll be back in 60 seconds.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:18]
MELBER: This is a special edition of THE BEAT. And in a moment, we will be joined by former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen. We’re going to discuss the Navarro indictment and how these wider challenges work. He has that experience and what it means for Trump himself.
Meanwhile, two Trump allies are facing criminal consequences, you see here the list. And that leads to the question, what about the other two? And you may have heard about this through across the news even before this news broke today that there are these hearings coming up next week. Some of them will be in primetime. That is a January 6 Committee’s way of trying to get this to break through any potential busyness or partisan filters and present to the nation what they found.
And remember, the hearings already have had real legal ramifications. Before Navarro was indicted, the Committee voted to hold them in contempt. And that’s when they invoked, as mentioned, his interviews.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): But at the same time, he was refusing to comply with our subpoena. Mr. Navarro made multiple media appearances, during which he discussed his various roles in the events that culminated in the January 6 attack. I’d like to play a video media clip right now.
NAVARRO: I have so much knowledge to share with you about what I was involved in what I know.
MURPHY: He has so much knowledge to share with a journalist, but he refuses to share that knowledge in response to a lawful subpoena.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Those are some of the members that we are going to hear from when they do these hearings next week. So we’ll hear from them. They’ll draw on evidence. Some of them might be public like that. Some of it might be undisclosed information that they’ve gotten from these many interviews and all the documents.
And then there are the guests, the witnesses, the people who might also break through the clutter. And remember, in the first committee hearing, it was Capitol police officers giving their testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They ended up on my hands and knees and blind,
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was grabbed, beaten, tased.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No one had ever, ever called me (BLEEP) while wearing the uniform of a Capitol police officer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I braced myself against the impact of their blows and feared the worst.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I could feel myself losing oxygen and recall thinking to myself, this is how I’m going to die.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys are the only ones we’ve got. I need you guys to address if anyone in power had a role in this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: That’s an officer who risked their life defending elected officials, addressing them that bipartisan committee and saying get to the bottom of it. That was powerful. We will see whether there are more moments like that in these hearings.
One of the top longtime Republicans on the committee, Liz Cheney, is also somewhat at the center of these questions about whether they finish their conclusions and sharing with the nation or go further and go after the ex- president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I think that it is absolutely the case. It’s absolutely clear that what President Trump was doing, what a number of people around him were doing, that they knew it was unlawful, they did it anyway. There’s not really a dispute on the committee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: How does this former president approach the law? His former lawyer is here when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:40:56]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: I was on my way to Nashville today. What did they do? They didn’t call me. Instead, they called me and say, hey, we need you down at court. We’ve got a warrant for you. We’re glad we come. What did they do? They intercepted me getting on the plane. And then they put me in handcuffs, they bring me here, they put me in leg irons, they stick me in a cell. That’s punitive. That — what they did to me today violated the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Trump aide, Peter Navarro, speaking out in front of the courthouse describing his arrest today after much public defiance of subpoenas. I’m now joined by Donald Trump’s former lawyer, Michael Cohen. His podcast is Mea Culpa. And he’s a principal with crisis ex (PH). Welcome back to THE BEAT.
MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER LAWYER OF DONALD TRUMP: Good to see you, Ari.
MELBER: This was a big development. You have been through so much of this. I think people remember. What do you see next for Peter Navarro, for Mark Meadows who was in the White House, while they’re under pressure here to give documents, evidence, testimony about whether Donald Trump was personally involved in pushing the insurrection or the coup?
COHEN: Right. So rest assured that Donald Trump was involved in every single aspect of the coup, starting with who ended up where, who is sitting next to him, the conversations that will go on, he’s involved in everything. The only bad part is that his fingerprints are rarely, if ever, on anything simply because he learned very well from the famous lawyer, Roy Cohn, not to have fingerprints on anything. He has no e-mail, he doesn’t text.
So it needs to be people like Peter Navarro, like Mark Meadows, like a Dan Scavino, like a Steve Bannon, like a Rudy Colludi Giuliani, all going ahead and talking about what they witnessed, firsthand knowledge. That’s the only way that they’re going to end up holding Donald Trump accountable for this.
MELBER: What do you think of the potential Trump defense, which we may hear about during these hearings as they start next week, that they tried everything, but when they got near a line, he backed off, he didn’t — as you say, he didn’t really go to the military. They tried Pence, he said no and it sort of ended there. What about that defense?
[18:45:06]
COHEN: Nonsense. It’s just — it’s not — it’s not real. It’s not legitimate. It’s a lie, which is something that Donald is so good at doing. He just blatantly lies right to your face. And he’ll say the same lie over and over and over again. For what purpose? Because, ultimately, the lie becomes the truth. And that’s what he wants.
Now, Peter Navarro is making a terrible mistake here. He will end up in prison. I mean, he’s foolish, and yes, he’s right, one quarter of his life could now be spent in prison. And rest assured, Peter, if you’re watching this show, and I hope is, you don’t want to go there. Even where I was at, at Otisville. It’s terrible. It’s terrible. You’re removed from your family, remove from your friends, they destroy your name, your reputation. All for who? All for what? For Donald Trump, for democracy to be democracy and peril?
Seriously, what are you thinking? What do you — what legacy do you want to leave to your children, grandchildren, and God willing, great grandchildren? Not the legacy that you’re leaving now, which he looks like a fool? Oh, my God, they went ahead. They picked me up at the airport. It’s unconstitutional.
First of all, Peter Navarro is not a lawyer. I don’t think he understands what he’s saying. I think he’s a PhD in economics. He should stick with what he knows, because what he’s saying right now really makes him look stupid.
MELBER: So that’s a lot of the law. And we’ve spent much of the hour on that. Politics fuses this. You are chaired by people that 10 years ago weren’t sharing you. OK? There’s a kind of political energy around this. Bannon and Navarro have tried to endear themselves with what I alluded to earlier that there’s this right wing support for this kind of stuff.
I want to play a little more from what he said on MSNBC, and what he said – – it’s the same as what he says on war room, because he seems to be trying to use publicity, to make himself into something. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NAVARRO: I have responded to the Justice Department and there will be ongoing interactions on that to be determined. If I were to go to prison for a year, which is what the contempt of charge could do to me, that would be about a fourth of my remaining life.
This is why I’m frightened. That’s why I’m willing to go to jail —
MELBER: OK. So let me respond. Let me respond to you.
NAVARRO: I’ll take Biden and every single senior staff member in there —
MELBER: And do what? And do what?
NAVARRO: — with subpoenas. And we’ll start with the impeachment of Biden.
MELBER: You do realize these investigators can hear you when you talk on TV.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MELBER: Which is true, but Navarro and Bannon seem to be trying to use the legal process to also get attention, right, to go on air. It’s maybe not helped them in the short-term, but to cast themselves as the most extreme leaders on the right wing and dear themselves with this movement.
Do you recognize that from anyone that you saw around Trump? And what do you think of that?
COHEN: So it was everyone that was around Trump and what I would say with Peter Navarro’s appearance on your show, and I’m glad he was on, right? I don’t know it shows that he’s got any sacral, any intelligence, right, because as you know, if you’re going to claim executive privilege, you can’t discuss and hear — of course, they’re trying to profit from their book, as Bannon is trying to profit from his war room, podcast, and other affiliations.
But this is exactly what everybody in Trump’s circle was doing. For some reason, Trump gives you the feeling when you’re in that inner circle, in that circle of trust. He gives you that feeling that you’re invincible. You could do whatever you want. The laws don’t apply to you. Why? Because they don’t apply to him.
MELBER: Let me ask you on that.
COHEN: He is the Teflon Don.
MELBER: Do you think Navarro was surprised to be greeted by those agents today?
COHEN: Yes, he was. He thought he was heading off the title — I only — I wonder whether or not he got his mileage back. I mean, that’s this — it’s so stupid to go to the — oh, my God, they put me in handcuffs and shackles. What did you want them to do put you in a Rolls Royce limousine and bring you to court? What would they expect you? Maybe they should take an order what he wants to eat, right, order, order, order in the court. That doesn’t mean that he’s put to say, hey, I want a tuna sandwich. I mean, it’s silly.
MELBER: I got 20 seconds. What’s the most important thing you’re watching at the hearings?
COHEN: Oh, I — look, I think the hearings are not going to produce a single person’s mindset. It’s not going to change a single person’s mindset. I’m interested for the record to see what they ultimately have. Remember, they had a thousand people already giving testimony. I was not one of them, but I’m pretty sure I — I’m pretty sure I’ll be able to read through the lines to understand exactly what’s going on. And you’ll ultimately find that Donald Trump is at the center of it.
MELBER: Michael Cohen on a big news night. Thank you for coming back on THE BEAT, sir.
COHEN: Always, Air. Great to see you.
MELBER: Appreciate it. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:50:11]
MELBER: We talked about the news, the law, the history, some of the politics. Now, we just get to the complete and total ridiculousness of this news day. It is a felony to lie to the FBI. Indeed, that’s part of how they have to do their work. And it’s also a felony to lie to Congress. If you’re in Congress, you care about that. Because when you bring people in, CEOs, government officials, you have to have some strength behind the testimony, otherwise, well, they could just lie or not answer at all.
Members of Congress usually know that, and yet, Republican Congressman Louie Gohmert, today, is responding to the Navarro news by warning that this imperils people’s ability to lie to Congress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LOUIE GOHMERT (R-TX): It actually puts an exclamation point on the fact that we have a two-tiered justice system. If you’re a Republican, you can’t even lie to Congress or lie to an FBI agent are — they’re coming after you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:55:14]
MELBER: If you’re a Republican, you can’t even lie to the government. No, sir. It’s a crime to lie to the government. And if nonpartisan prosecutors are finding that certain people are doing it more than others, well, you should probably face down why that is. This was almost been this comment, but we did want to show you a congressman owning themselves. We’ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MELBER: It’s been a long news week, but we have a special announcement. This Sunday, MSNBC presents the “Devil’s Advocate,” a serious — series about a lawyer and a con man who represented everyone from Manson to Saddam Hussein. It should be pretty interesting, “Devil’s Advocate,” a mostly true story.” That is this weekend, Sunday at 10:00 P.M. Eastern and on Peacock.
“THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID” starts now.