Updated
Summary
Texas officials refuse to answer questions about the Uvalde elementary school shooting. The first January 6 Committee hearing is set for Thursday night. After an 11-month investigation that included 1,000 depositions and interviews and the collection of over 140,000 documents, the January 6 Committee will make its first presentation to the American people in a primetime hearing that will be carried live. Trump election liars are running for secretary of state in 17 states.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening to you, Rachel.
You have set the stage for this week`s hearing, the January 6th hearing, which surely are the most important hearings since Watergate. And I know you have mentioned your experience with the Watergate hearings, and I`m not sure how much you actually remember of those —
(LAUGHTER)
O`DONNELL: — of those hearings, or exactly you know, which diaper you were wearing at the time. But —
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, “TRMS”: I was six weeks old. Maybe, I remember. I don`t know.
O`DONNELL: So, I remember of it I was a student at the time. And watching it from that distance of a student, where I thought, I know everything. It never felt, it was no horse race component to it. I do not remember any discussion of what`s going to happen, because of these hearings.
All I remember was the excitement of what are we going to learn tomorrow.
MADDOW: Yes.
O`DONNELL: What are we going to learn, if you watch this thing today? What`s going to be revealed? I mean, it was kind of like, you know, watching Barry Mason episode on TV. What was going to be revealed, and not what`s going to happen to these people, and yet the worst things that happen to those people, so many of them and there are going to prison. The president ended up resigning.
But I don`t remember watching it in anticipation of Richard Nixon ever getting on helicopter and leaving town. And that`s — this time around, but it has all of that built into it. This sense of, okay, then what happens after the hearing, after the revelations, as if the truth itself is not enough?
MADDOW: You know, I think it`s a very good point. And I feel like it`s important for me, looking back on it, when I think about those iconic moments from the Watergate hearings, you know, the person what did the president know, and what did he know, that was a Republican who said it. They don`t remember that that was a Republican who said it, because that wasn`t, as you say, it wasn`t the lens through which we were watching it. We were watching it to find out what actually happened, and the idea that there would be a partisan cast in the way it was received, you know, now, at the time, and now since, doesn`t seem to have been the importance of it.
I mean, I don`t know, I feel like the committee, it is a bipartisan committee, right? There are Republicans on the committee, even though the Republicans want to believe those aren`t real Republicans. There is an expectation that we are going to learn new things about what happens, that we didn`t know before. We certainly are going to hear from witnesses we have never heard from before, if “The New York Times” reporting and NBC`s reporting tonight is correct.
So I do think it`s going to be a little bit of a reveal, learning what actually happened, separate and apart from us, this cycle of analyzing with effect that`s going to be on the country`s psyche about it. I`m really intrigued to see what they`re going to show us. And I think people who say they`re going to ignore it are being honest.
O`DONNELL: You know, and one element of it that I don`t think was present at all, but let`s just remember, this is a student watch thing at a time. I don`t remember anyone anticipating Republicans — the Republican Party is going to pay a price for what is revealed in these hearings.
It didn`t — I don`t remember crossing anyone`s mind that, oh, Republican senators will lose their reelection campaigns, or Republican House numbers will lose the reelection campaigns, because this would somehow tar that entire Republican Party. It tarred in the Nixon administration, and it didn`t reach beyond that.
MADDOW: Well, there Republicans went into the Watergate hearings, went into the Watergate investigation, saying that it was a witch hunt, saying that there had been no wrongdoing, saying the president hadn`t done anything wrong. And that they were sure of it, and this was a waste of time. And it was just when the information came out, particularly from Nixon White House insiders, that their jaws dropped along with everybody else is.
So, I`m sure it must have been part of their calculation when they went to Nixon and told him it was time to go, that they were trying to separate themselves from him. But they did go through a transformation of their own, in terms of defending him, versus deciding he was indefensible.
We saw the Republicans do that on January 6th. They just immediately relapsed as soon as Trump survived the impeachment.
O`DONNELL: Yeah, they did it in reverse order. Kevin McCarthy immediately came out and said, well, almost immediately Mitch McConnell almost immediately saying, you know, this is the president`s fault. And as time went on, they became more defensive of the president.
MADDOW: Yes, exactly. I mean, you go back and you watch Mitch McConnell`s speech on the floor of the Senate during the impeachment hearing, about how the civil — civil lawsuits and the criminal law have ways of dealing with this.
[22:05:08]
And the president did it, and the president`s responsible. And you know, Kevin McCarthy and other things that about the president being responsible, being as this unconscionable thing, and then just hopping in his lap immediately as soon as he survived it. It is with — I mean, history will tell that in its own blunt way.
O`DONNELL: Rachel, I will be joining you on the set Thursday night, as you guide us through these hearings.
MADDOW: Yeah, I will be following your lead, as much as you will be following mine, Lawrence. I`ll see you then.
O`DONNELL: You are the boss, see you Thursday.
(LAUGHTER)
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
The darkest hour ever. That`s what the Uvalde newspaper calls it. And that`s the subject of the most important editorial ever published by a small town Texas newspaper.
On Sunday, the Uvalde leader knew said that Uvalde`s darkest hour was the time between 11:33 am and 12:50 pm, where the mass murderer shot and killed 19 children, to teachers at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde.
The Sunday edition of the Uvalde leader news, Sunday edition, it`s only 20 pages long. It is not a newspaper accustomed to having the editorial opinion delivered to a national audience, or even to the leaders of Texas state government.
Sunday`s editorial was greeted by silence from Texas Republican Governor Greg Abbott, who has the authority to fire the state law enforcement officials, who, he says, did not tell him the truth about what happened in Uvalde. Uvalde later news says the people working for Governor Abbott, in the Texas department of public safety, have been as incoherent as a quote, drunken sailor, drunken sailor. That`s what the Uvalde newspaper is calling the Greg Abbott investigative team.
The head of the Texas department of public safety, Steve McCraw, right there, delivered that one meandering press conference that you see him doing there, in which much of what he said then turned up to be false. Greg Abbott has not fired him. No one has been fired.
No one has resigned, including Pete Arredondo, the chief of the Uvalde school district police, who was reportedly in command inside the school, went according to the Uvalde leader news editorial, quote, 19 officers from the Uvalde PD, school district, Department of Public Safety and Border Patrol waited, apparently frozen by orders or fear, in the hallway. Frozen by orders or fear. While Chief Arredondo and those 19 officers where frozen for an hour, the Federico Torres` 10-year-old son, Rojelio, bled to death on the floor of his classroom.
On Saturday, Federico Torres said this about Chief Arredondo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FEDERICO TORRES, FATHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM ROJELIO TORRES: If I were him, I would quit my job. Even if he doesn`t quit, he`s supposed to be fired, get out of there. He did nothing for us.
He failed us. He failed our kids. He failed the future (ph) of this community.
What is he going to do now? How is he going to wake up tomorrow?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: He is apparently having no trouble waking up tomorrow. His professional life only seems to have actually improved since he failed utterly in Uvalde`s darkest hours. Chief Arredondo was sworn in last week as the newest member of Uvalde`s city council. It was done in secret, which might have been a violation of law in and of itself, doing that in secret.
And when a CNN reporter caught up with him at the end of the week, last week, he didn`t look or sound like someone who was troubled in any way at all. He stood there for a moment, before hustling away, refusing to answer any questions, because Chief Arredondo, along with every other Texas government official, and every other Texas law enforcement official involved in this case, does not want any more information about it made public now.
Governor Abbott rushed to Uvalde the day after the mass murder, to push personally tell a story about what happened in that school. He wanted to be at the microphone that day, the center of attention, telling Texas and the country everything about what happened in that school. He praised the heroism of the officers who went into that school, without ever saying that they waited over an hour to do anything.
[22:10:02]
And as the story that Governor Abbott told, started to fall apart the next day, thanks to reporters on the scene and family members who were outside the school, Greg Abbott sent his head of the Department of Public Safety, Steve McCraw, out to tell the story again and get it right this time, but after that story started to fall apart, everyone went silent. Everyone involved is now helping Chief Arredondo keep his job for as long as possible, keep that paycheck coming in as long as possible.
The school board asked the power to fire Chief Arredondo, as the chief of the school department police force. But they had a meeting last week, and they did nothing. The longer Texas authorities can keep secret what happened in that school day, they increase their chances of not having to do anything about what the Uvalde leader news advocates at the end of its editorial. The editorial echoes what people in Uvalde said to President Biden when he visited, do something.
The editorial says, do something. Raise the legal age to purchase all firearms to 21, the same that`s required for a handgun or a pack of smokes. Remove liability protections for firearms, manufacturers, who are targeting our teenagers with messages of killing. And for god sake, restrict high capacity magazines to law enforcement and the military.
Governor Greg Abbott has been publicly opposed to each of those things. One governor did something. Three weeks, that is all it took, three weeks, after ten black people were murdered by a racist mass murderer in Buffalo, New York, in a supermarket on May 14th. It took the New York legislature three weeks to pass new legislation on gun safety, which New York Governor Kathy Hochul signed into law today.
It includes an increase in the age from 18 to 21, for the purchase of the kind of assault weapon that was used in the Buffalo supermarket, and in Robb Elementary School in Uvalde. It increases licensing requirements, and it bans the sale of body armor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D), NEW YORK: Today is a start — it`s a start and it`s not the end. Thoughts and prayers won`t fix this, but taking strong action will. And we`ll do that in the name of lives have been lost, for the parents who will no longer see children stepping off a school bus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Three weeks, Governor Hochul did that in three weeks. Governor Abbott has done absolutely nothing in two weeks since that you all the mass murder. The Greg Abbott plan appears to be out the new cycle and do nothing.
On Sunday, 250 self declared got enthusiastic and donors to Greg Abbott and other Republican campaigns, took an ad on “The Dallas Morning News” urging the federal government to do something, including raising the age to purchase the gun to 21, expanding background checks, and creating red flag laws that allow judges to restrict gun access, at the request of family members and others who consider someone dangerous.
Matthew McConaughey who was born in Uvalde wrote an op-ed piece for “The Austin American-Statesman” today, advocating the same list of reforms, and a national waiting period for purchasing assault rifles. McConaughey wrote: Individuals often purchase weapons in a fit of rage, harming themselves or others. Studies show that mandatory waiting periods of reduced homicides by 17 percent.
Governor Abbott knows that the more we learn about what happened in that school, the more pressure will build on Republicans in Texas to do something. But, but if it takes a year to find out what happened in that school, then the political imperative to do something could collapse, as it always has in the past.
So, as of tonight, the Texas plan, from chief Arredondo all the way up to Governor Abbott, seems to be, wake them up, stay silent, and wait out the wave of pressure from Uvalde`s newspaper and if you Republican donors and Matthew McConaughey, just wait them out, and do nothing.
And leading off our discussion tonight is Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez. He represents Texas 19th district, which includes Uvalde.
Senator, thank you very much for joining us again tonight.
[22:15:00]
And thank you for being the most responsive Texas government official, concerned with this, involved with this, who is trying to let all of us know as much as possible, day in, day out with.
Your reaction to this continued silence from Chief Arredondo and others, who were all part of putting out a story that has since collapsed in many ways, and have not come forward to correct it, and clarify?
ROLAND GUTIERREZ (D), TEXAS STATE SENATOR: Lawrence, first, off thanks to you for continuing to keep the pressure on law enforcement officials and Austin. Let`s be clear, this is the most infamous day in our state`s history. And it will remain shrouded as long as Greg Abbott once it so.
We were to believe that a prosecutor, the local Republican Party (AUDIO GAP) staff of three or four, asking the tough questions, which agencies where in that hallway? I know very clearly, there was between two, and as many as 13 DPS troopers in that hallway.
We need to know for ourselves so that this never happens again. We need to create corrections, and absolutely, we need to change laws. But Greg Abbott, after now, five massacres (AUDIO GAP) refuses a single thing (AUDIO GAP).
O`DONNELL: Senator, I`m sorry. We are having a lot of trouble with your audio and being able to hear it. So, we`re going to try to fix that. We will come back to you if we can get it straight up.
Joining us now is Tony Plohetski, investigative reporter from “The Austin American Statesman”, and Zach Despart, politics reporter for “The Texas Tribune”.
Tony, let me begin with you.
And Chief Arredondo`s position how long can he maintain his silence on this? How long are the people of Uvalde going to accept this?
TONY PLOHETSKI, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN: Well, presumably, he can keep quiet as long as he wants to. Although, certainly, there continues to be called for him to address the public of Uvalde in some way, be it through an interview, or a news conference, or a written statement.
Let`s face it. He holds the answers to some of the most critical questions about what`s happened a week ago, tomorrow. He has the ability for us to walk and explain to us, his mindset, why in the world the police director who chose to do this, why he thought it was a barricaded subject instead of active shooter? How many officers worked in that hallway? What was the conversation going on?
Again, these are all the questions that he has the answer to. But so far, we haven`t heard them at all. And he can, apparently, stay quite as long as he wants to. And as you mentioned, Lawrence, the school board has not even placed him on any sort of administrative leave, which frankly, it`s common when a law enforcement official, or a law enforcement officer is the subject, or has had some involvement in a questionable circumstance like that.
O`DONNELL: And, Zach, who has Greg Abbott fired for lying to him about what`s happened in the school? He said he was livid about that. That was his word, livid, about people not telling him the truth, so that he couldn`t tell Texas the truth when he held that press conference. Has he fired anyone for that?
ZACH DESPART, THE TEXAS TRIBUNE POLITICS REPOTER: To my knowledge, Governor Abbott has not fired anyone related to that. Those are some of the key questions that were still trying to figure out. And as you mentioned, Governor Abbott has come down to bundle Uvalde, to be able to brief the public on the awful events that had happened.
What we, as reporters, are still trying to figure out how good the governor get so many facts wrong? How good the head of state police get so many critical facts wrong? As you mentioned, initially, in the narrative, they have said that the gunman had been confronted by police officer outside the school. None of that appear to be true.
So, we would like to figure out exactly who misled the governor and why. And why the state officials were not from the start, able to get so many of these crucial facts correct? One of the things is that challenging a reporting, as we talk to so many Uvalde residents, when we had been in town, and they want to know who to hold accountable.
But it`s hard to answer that question when they don`t know all the facts. And I don`t know if all the facts president right now are in fact the right ones.
[22:20:02]
O`DONNELL: Well, Tony, one place to look to hold accountable, is who is withholding facts, who is withholding information from the people in Uvalde is a completely separate issue from exactly what happened that day. Those issues overlap, but they know who`s withholding the information from them.
PLOHETSKI: Well, and to a larger extent, we do to. We all have filed numerous requests for information so far. We have not received any of the requested information. Under state law, agencies do have about ten days total to respond. So, we`re still waiting on those requests.
But make no mistake, at any moment in time, they could choose to release audio excerpt of 911 calls, or even transcripts of 911 calls, as well as surveillance videos from the school, body camera video from the numerous police officers who were there, and all of that, of course, would help create a picture, and potentially, the most accurate picture of what happened that day.
O`DONNELL: And, Zach, sometimes, prosecutors have a reason for withholding information like that, because it`s a pending criminal investigation that could end up in a trial, in court. There is no criminal investigation here, because the criminal in the school was killed in the school. So, there is no law whatsoever for prosecutor in this case at this time, unless the prosecutor wants to somehow prosecute police officers for some reason, who were in that school.
DESPART: Yeah, I mean, obviously, I`m not in the Uvalde County district attorney`s head. Certainly, she considers something like that about the kind of police officers how they present themselves, and how they responded to the incidents. I think it`s perhaps less likely. One thing that is notable is the Department of Public Safety and the governor had brief the public for three days in a row last week, and since then, they have referred all questions to the district attorney.
And essentially, it gives them a way of saying, we are no longer going to communicate back to the public, and we`re for all of this that way. So it`s truly sort of the public has given them a red wall application.
O`DONNELL: Yeah, Tony, before you go, I see no other role for the prosecutor here, except to block information from becoming public. There is no crime to investigate, because there is no potential defendant now for those 21 murders.
PLOHETSKI: Well, that`s exactly right. I mean, legal experts I`ve talked to here in the state, I`ve asked them to look at the facts as we know them now. If they foresee any criminal charges against anyone, including the responding police officers, and so far, as we sit here tonight, no expert who practices criminal law and the state of Texas, who I`ve talked to, I said that`s really even a potential.
O`DONNELL: This is the Texas cover-up until proven otherwise. And this district attorney is now the key player in keeping everything covered up. I don`t know if it looks different close in Texas, but we`ll keep checking with you on this.
Tony Plohetski and Zach Despart, thank you both very much for joining us tonight.
DESPART: Thanks, Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, the Justice Department charge five members of a group that foolishly calls themselves, the Proud Boys with seditious conspiracy for their role in the January 6th attack on the Capitol. Neal Katyal will join us to discuss those charges, and what to expect in the January six committee first public hearing on Thursday.
And later, we will be joined by Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson to discuss how the Trump election liars are now running for secretary of state in many states around the country, and what that means to the future of counting your vote in elections?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[22:28:13]
O`DONNELL: After an 11 month investigation that included 1,000 depositions, and interviews, and a collection of over 140,000 documents. The January 6 Committee will make its first presentation to the American people in a primetime hearing that will be carried live on this network, on Thursday night, beginning at 8:00 p.m. The public hearings are reportedly going to include never before seen video from interviews, the committee conducted, official photographs from the Trump White House photographer, and surveillance footage from the January 6th attack.
“The New York Times” is reporting tonight, that one of the witnesses we know will be testifying on Thursday night is Caroline Williams, a Capitol police officer who is injured during the riot. According to “The Times”, she is believed to have been the first officer who is injured that day. NBC news can also confirm that another witness on Thursday night will be the man who recorded this video. His name is Nick Austin, and he is a documentary filmmaker, who had been following the extremist group that calls themselves the Proud Boys, in the lead up to and during the January 6th attack.
The video you are looking at here is a meeting that took place in an underground parking garage, on January 5th, the day before the attack, with leaders of the so-called proud boys, and another crazy lunatic group the calls themselves the Oath Keepers. So, it was the craziest meeting the crazies, along with other pro-Trump crazies in that garage.
[22:29:49]
The “Washington Post` reports, quote, “Although the committee has not made a final decision, people familiar with the investigation believe the panel will screen footage of testimony from Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner, including Trump`s account of her father`s actions in the West Wing on January 6.
Everybody will pay attention when Jared and Ivanka talk on video. It doesn`t matter how damning the presentations are, said a person close to the investigation.
Asked about the committee`s findings, Wyoming Republican Congresswoman and vice chair of the committee Liz Cheney, told CBS News this.
LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Let me say this way, I haven`t learned anything that has made me less concerned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What has made you more concerned?
CHENEY: Well, I think the extent, the expanse, how broad this multi-pronged effort was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it a conspiracy?
CHENEY: I think, certainly — I mean if you look at the court filings —
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe it was a conspiracy?
CHENEY: I do. It is extremely broad. It`s extremely well-organized. It`s really chilling.
We are not in a situation where former President Trump has expressed any sense of remorse about what happened. We are in fact in a situation where he continues to use even more extreme language, frankly than the language that caused the attack.
And so people must pay attention. People must watch, and they must understand how easily our democratic system can unravel, if we don`t defend it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Today a federal grand jury indicted Enrique Tarrio, the longtime leader of the so-called Proud Boys on seditious conspiracy charges. Four other members of the so-called Proud Boys were also indicted.
According to the indictment, Tarrio was involved in discussions and had received a document describing a plan to occupy buildings in the Capitol complex on January 6.
The indictment says, the documents set forth a plan to occupy a few crucial buildings in Washington, D.C. on January 6, including House and Senate office buildings around the Capitol, with as many people as possible, to show our politicians we the people are in charge.
And joining our discussion is Neal Katyal, former acting U.S. solicitor general and an MSNBC legal analyst.
Neal, I want to begin with what we just ended with there. This federal grand jury indictment for seditious conspiracy, including the details there about their plan, was to occupy the Hart Senate office building, and the Russell Senate office building, Dirksen Senate office building — buildings you know well, that I know well and used to work in to, in effect, they believed, take over the government.
NEAL KATYAL, MSNBC LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, so Lawrence, this is a really serious charge, Section 2384, seditious conspiracy. And to prove it, the prosecutors are going to have to show that two or more people tried to conspire to overthrow the government, or prevent the execution of law. And the one thing we know about Merrick Garland is that he`s incredibly cautious.
So the fact that he`s gone and brought these charges, I think is really significant. It`s not the first time the Justice Department has used this statute. They also used it against the Oath Keepers founder Stewart Rhodes and some of his henchmen. And three of those people had pled guilty, and are indeed cooperating now with the Justice Department.
And so I think the charge makes a lot of sense. The Proud Boys after all were involved in this attack on the Capitol from the start. The video you just showed a moment ago, Dominic Pezzola, was the — who was a Proud Boy has been the first person to breach the Capitol.
And remember, Lawrence, the Proud Boys are the very entity that Donald Trump, during a presidential debate, when asked about whether he`d accept the results of an election if he lost, he exhorted them to quote “stand back and stand by”.
O`DONNELL: Yes, as people talk about, you know, what is going to be the result of the January 6 committee hearings. Here, we are seeing a parallel result of an investigation that is issuing indictments now, that is actually really doing this work.
KATYAL: Exactly, Lawrence. So the Justice Department has done that, going after the people who have actually breached the Capitol, and the like. They`ve also gone after some people like Steve Bannon, or Mr. Navarro who, you know, didn`t provide evidence to the congressional committee. They haven`t done what I think many people are clamoring for, which is to actually, you know, bring some sort of action against higher ups at the White House, who at the very least they stood by and did nothing for 181 minutes. And at the most, probably did more.
You know, that maybe that the Justice Department waiting for these congressional hearings to take place. You know, there`s multiple different explanations of what could be going on. But they are two different tracks, as you say.
[22:35:01]
O`DONNELL: Neal Katyal, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight.
KATYAL: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And up next, Trump election liars are running for secretary of state in 17 states. Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson is running for reelection against one of those Trump election liars. Never in history has more been at stake in what were the previously low visibility state campaigns for secretary of state.
Michigan secretary of state Jocelyn Benson will join us next.
[22:35:35]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Republican supporters of Donald Trump`s election lies are running for office to take control of counting votes in elections. One of those candidates is Tina Peters, a county clerk in Colorado, who`s running to be that state`s secretary of state. She is, quote, “under indictment related to allegations that she tampered with elections equipment and a judge has barred her from overseeing this year`s elections.”
According to States United Action, an organization that tracks candidates who backed Donald Trump`s election lies, at least 23 election deniers are running for secretary of state in 17 states including in Michigan, a state that Trump lost by 154,188 votes.
The Trump-endorsed election denier, Kristina Karamo, is running against our next guest, Michigan secretary of state, Jocelyn Benson.
Kristina Karamo claimed that she personally witnessed election fraud as a poll worker in Detroit. The “Detroit News” is now reporting that Michigan attorney general Dana Nessel, expects criminal charges to result from her office`s investigation into the push to overturn the 2020 election in Michigan.
Joining us now is Michigan secretary of state Jocelyn Benson. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. It is such a strange turn of history in this country, that suddenly, the campaigns for secretary of state but statewide, have become among the most important in the country.
And I know you realize that before this era, your office and getting people to name their secretary of state within their state was kind of a trick question. And not a lot of people could answer that, but it`s never been more important now.
JOCELYN BENSON, MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: It`s always been important. Thanks for having me, Lawrence. You know, I wrote a book on this office back in 2008, about how secretaries of state serve as guardians of the democratic process.
And voters have everywhere an opportunity to choose to elect secretaries of state from either side of the political spectrum, who will do their jobs with integrity, from a nonpartisan standpoint. And exactly why democracy prevailed in 2020 was because we had secretaries of state — Democrats, Independents, Republicans — committed to doing their jobs professionally.
And now, the fact that so many of us are being threatened with replacement by the exact opposite individuals who would put party first, over protecting our democracy is truly a five-alarm fire for the future of our elections and democracy.
O`DONNELL: So I feel awkward about this next question, because I want to know, but I`m not sure I want you to say it on TV, so that your opponent can learn. But I want to know what Michigan secretary of state can do to change the outcome of an election?
Well, there`s really three specific paths, all of which can be pursued at the same time. First, interfere with or block the certification of valid election results at the state or local level and there`s various ways that this can happen.
But secondly, the secretary of state, if wanting to use this office to hurt democracy could issue decisions or declarations leading up to or on election day itself. They could cause a great deal of chaos and confusion for our more than 1,500 clerks in the state, failing to provide them with support and clarity, and even investment in security.
And then, finally, the very threat of potential secretaries of state, using these increasingly high-profile positions, as a bully pulpit to spread misinformation and lies, thereby causing citizens to disengage, and lose faith in their democracy is one of the most dangerous and pernicious ways in which this office can be misused.
O`DONNELL: What`s an example in the pre-Trump era of a typical election day moment where a secretary of state might have to issue some kind of clarification to election workers?
BENSON: Maybe if someone is showing up, we saw this in 2020, trying to intimidate voters or block their eligibility, interfere with the professional work of election workers, simply checking a voter in, giving them a ballot. If people show up and say, don`t give that person a ballot, I`m challenging them because I don`t like their last name.
Well, you can`t challenge someone just because you don`t like their last name. But again, it requires us to rapidly respond to issues like that, as they occur. We`ve also had candidates this year advise observers or even voters to go in and pull out the plug of election machines if they don`t like what they see.
[22:44:57]
That`s the type of thing that the secretary of state working with local clerks can proactively work to ensure this doesn`t happen by training our clerks to respond if and when something like that happens.
Just today, we facilitated a meeting with law enforcement officials throughout the state, the attorney generals office and local election officials in our state, to build connectivity, so that we can preemptively prepare for anything, and it`s a big job of what we have to do in this moment.
And if you don`t have a secretary of state leading in that way, you can instead open the door for all the pernicious attempts to undermine our democracy and block valid citizens from voting and block valid votes from being counted.
O`DONNELL: Michigan secretary of state Jocelyn Benson running for reelection, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
BENSON: Thanks for having me.
O`DONNELL: Thank you.
And coming up, this morning Russia fired missiles into Kyiv for the first time in over a month. Russia then imposed new sanctions against 61 U.S. officials. President Obama`s deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes, who was himself sanctioned by Vladimir Putin will join us next.
[22:46:10]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O`DONNELL: Yesterday, Russian forces targeted the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv with missile strikes. Russia claimed that those attacks destroyed military equipment sent in from other countries. The attack comes a week after President Joe Biden pledged another shipment of U.S. military assistance to Ukraine.
Vladimir Putin warned that deliveries of longer-range rocket systems from western nations, would prompt Moscow to hit, quote, “objects that we haven`t yet struck”.
Despite Putin`s threat, Britain today announced it will send Ukraine launch rocket systems that can strike targets up to 50 miles away. The advanced weapons are focused on the Donbas region, where fierce fighting has taken place between Ukrainian and Russian forces on Sunday.
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy visited troops on the front lines. It was his second trip outside of Kyiv to meet with troops on the frontlines. He told them, what you all deserve is victory. That is the most important thing.
Joining us now Ben Rhodes, former deputy National Security Adviser to President Obama and an MSNBC political analyst. He`s the author of “After the Fall: Being American in the World We Have Made”.
And Ben, as I recall, when you were working in the Obama White House, you were on Vladimir Putin`s sanctions list, as he retaliated for sanctions that the Obama administration imposed. And here he is at it again.
BEN RHODES, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I was on the very first sanctions list, Lawrence. I think there were like eight of us on that first list.
(CROSSTALK)
O`DONNELL: Ben, is that framed behind you somewhere in the room, your name on the sanctions list?
RHODES: Yes, I don`t know how I got on that first list, but I`ll take it. I mean I have no money in rubles, I have no assets in Russia. So apart from the travel ban, I can`t travel to Russia, it`s had no impact on my life.
Look, this is something they do tit-for-tat. I mean actually, I think the Zelenskyy video you showed, illustrates the contrast.
Here is Putin, you know, sitting in the Kremlin, sitting at his long table, avoiding anybody who might say anything that he doesn`t want to hear, and issuing lists of American officials that he is sanctioning to literally no impact.
And here is Zelenskyy going, let`s be clear, like this is dangerous where he`s going. Basically, the civilian populations have evacuated these places. He is where the fighting is most intense.
And you know, I think when Putin does these kind of petulant moves, these rhetoric that he can`t back up, or these sanction lists it just kind illustrates how much like he`s not at the center of what Zelenskyy is at the center of, which is, an actually legitimate fight for a country`s future, and one that has inspired people not just in Ukraine but around the world.
O`DONNELL: What is it like for Vladimir Putin when he sees that imagery, that news video of Zelenskyy right there, literally in the trenches on the front lines. Does Putin understand the impact that has worldwide?
RHODES: Yes, I think, you know, Putin by all accounts, and this was certainly the case when we were in government, he believes some of his own rhetoric and propaganda, and what`s proved to be disinformation about Ukraine. You know, that this is a weak, brittle country that would fold in the face of the Russian attack, that actually a bulk of Ukrainian people would like to be a part of Russia.
You know, I think Putin has repeated that lie so much, that I think he might have believed. And what Zelenskyy has come to embody is a Ukrainian kind of civic nationalism that really puts the lie to everything Putin has said in his world view.
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RHODES: I mean this is why it`s such an existential threat to Putin, because everything that he said about the weakness of democracy, the weakness of the west, the fact that countries like Ukraine would actually like to be incorporated back into some version of a Russian empire. Every time we see Zelenskyy doing this, it shows that Putin is a liar.
And you also have to remember, Lawrence, this is the guy — Putin rides around on a horse with his shirt off. You know, you don`t do that unless you have some kind of complex, right.
And what Zelenskyy is doing, he doesn`t have to take his shirt off. Like he`s showing what actual courage is and it`s not something that he Vladimir Putin possesses.
O`DONNELL: Ben Rhodes, thank you very much for joining us again tonight. We hope you survive the sanctions experience.
RHODES: Yes. I`ll be ok, yes. Thanks Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Ben. We will be right back.
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O`DONNELL: That is tonight`s LAST WORD.
“THE 11TH HOUR WITH STEPHANIE RUHLE” starts now.