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CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST, “ALL IN”: That is “ALL IN” for this week.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW with Mehdi Hasan starts right now.
Good evening, Mehdi.
MEHDI HASAN, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Chris.
America, the only Western democracy where politicians get to pick their voters. Voters don`t pick their politicians.
HAYES: Very, very bizarre situation.
HASAN: Bizarre and undemocratic.
Thanks, Chris. Have a great rest of your night.
Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour.
And we start tonight in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, where this happened last week. Just see if you can figure out what is going on here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh yeah. Where is Goliath? Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You are welcome. Bless you.
Wow. How powerful is that? Oh my gosh. Our next governor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Our next governor. Yes, that man in the center, the man receiving the giant sword, that was Pennsylvania state senator and Republican candidate for governor, Doug Mastriano. The man dressed in multiple American flags, and the woman to his left or the organizers of this event in Gettysburg last week. And they are gifting Mastriano what they call a David sword.
That is a nice gift. Who doesn`t appreciate a good sword, right? But honestly, the sword may have been the least weird thing about this event because this was a big QAnon event. And not just QAnon, it was kind of a every conspiracy theory under the sun event.
This was the poster for the event which was called Patriots arise for God and country. The headliner for this event you can see her name there, Dr. Betsy Eads. She is actively pushing a theory that people who got the COVID vaccine booster shot are going to get AIDS. She was the headliner at this event.
Not long before they got to the headliner, the organizers really set the tone for this two-day gathering with a video that played in the event first hour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Media propaganda, the child trafficking, and the slave economy. All of these systems will crumble down.
The darkness will collapse, and only a few countries at first, but other countries will soon follow. We will unite against the dark.
(MUSIC)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: That crazy video keeps going like that with a hodgepodge of every conspiracy theory possible from 9/11 was an inside job to 5G networks are killing you, to Hitler`s death was faked. Didn`t see that one coming, did you?
But of course, all of those conspiracy theories are just the appetizers. The main course is the big one that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald J. Trump. And candidate for governor, Doug Mastriano, wasn`t just attending this event, he was all in. His campaign auctioned off this print of a painting of a very muscular Donald Trump to raise money for his campaign.
Someone paid $4,000 for it. Madness.
Mastriano himself who has been subpoenaed by the January 6th investigation over his efforts to overturn Joe Biden`s win in Pennsylvania. He gave a speech in which he described that subpoena as a badge of honor. And you know, how times change, and how fast they change, because just last year, Doug Mastriano was distancing himself from the same group, and this same event.
His spokesperson at the times that he strongly condemns the QAnon conspiracy theory, and that it was a mistake that he was listed as a speaker at last year`s conference. But this year? He is not shying away. He went all in, and left with a sword, and a goody bag.
And Doug Mastriano, remember, is the front runner for the Republican nomination for governor in Pennsylvania. One new poll out today shows him with a 14-point lead over his nearest opponent, that poll maybe a bit of an outlier, but you get the idea.
It is time to say it, this is not the fringe. This is the Republican Party now. And it not just in Pennsylvania, last weekend, Republicans in Michigan chose to election deniers to be their candidates for statewide office in November.
One of those two candidates spoke at a QAnon conspiracy theory conference late last year.
[21:05:01]
She is now the official Republican nominee for secretary of state in Michigan, which means that if she wins in November, she will be in charge of overseeing elections for the entire state. The other candidate has said that his Democratic opponent, the currently serving attorney general of Michigan, should be in jail. And if he replaces her as attorney general, he has the power to help do that.
Next door in Wisconsin, the front-runner for the Republican nomination for governor, the closest thing to an established candidate in that race, this week said that she to believes the 2020 election was rigged.
And it is not just election conspiracies that are animating the Republican Party now. The QAnon craziness is seeped into more and more of the GOP`s agenda. The central thesis, I guess, of the QAnon conspiracy is that the country is run by a couple of Satan worshipping Democratic pedophiles.
And what is the latest crusade from Republican politicians? Pushing laws to outlaw any mention of a gender or sexuality in schools. And then shamelessly accusing anyone who objects, Democrats, even the Disney Corporation, of being pedophiles, or groomers out to molest our children.
Republican legislators are also racing to see who can ban the most books in schools, setting up new tribunals that we`ll sift through every school library and remove any but that Republican lawmakers find objectionable. Or maybe a book ban isn`t quite stringent enough for today`s Republican Party. Maybe what we need is a good old-fashioned book burning.
(BEGN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE REP. JOHN RAY CLEMMONS (D-TN): Let`s say you take these books out of the library, what are you going to do with them? Are you going to put them in the street? Light them on fire? Where are they going?
STATE REP. JERRY SEXTON (R-TN): I don`t have a clue. I would burn them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: The 2020 election was stolen, Democrats are a bunch of pedophile groomers, burn all of the books we don`t like, this is the Republican Party now. Which makes it absolutely hilarious that Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, the man who was just buying Twitter, surveyed this political landscape and concluded that Democrats, Democrats, are the ones who have become crazy extremists.
I mean, whatever you think of Elon Musk`s politics are his plans for Twitter, here is a guy who was unquestionably brilliant in some areas, he has designed cars, and spaceships, and built these successful companies, but his big brain take on today`s political situation is literally this stick figure drawing he shared on the social media platform he is in the process of taking over. This stick figure drawing that shows a figure in the middle standing slightly left of center politically in 2008, and then watching Democrats sprint left towards the following 13 years while Republicans stayed put exactly where they were. No change from the Republicans there.
Musk wrote quote, I strongly supported Obama for president, but today`s Democratic Party has been hijacked by extremists. It is the Democrats who have gone far left, not the Republicans far-right.
As the political scientist Don Moynihan replied, Obama`s party is led by Obama`s vice president, and the other party is led by the guy who tried to orchestrate a coup. But sure, it is the Democrats who are extremists.
Even by the bunker standards of Elon Musk`s tweet, it is a bonkers take on the political situation. But it does one thing to know that he is wrong on this, to know that it is the Republicans who have become radical, extreme, conspiracy minded, book burning, extremists, it is another thing to say, to go out and say it. It is another thing to call the Republicans out on what they have actually become.
And there are some signs that maybe Democrats are starting to figure out how to talk about this, finally, how to call out the Republicans on what they have become, in ways that will resonate with American voters.
The Democratic state senator in Michigan went viral last week for her response to a Republican colleague who had sent a fundraising email accusing her of wanting to groom and sexualize children. Her righteous fury electrified a lot of Democrats. Michigan states that Mallory McMorrow even got a call from President Biden who thanked her for saying a lot of what needed to be said. Indeed.
Democrats also took notice this week when Congressman Jamie Raskin called that one of his Republican colleagues. This time it was not for calling people pedophiles, it was for Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene calling out NATO allies Nazis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Mr. Speaker, the United States of America witnessed the most astonishing spectacle. We are here to debate, aid to the people of Ukraine, defending themselves against a machine invasion by Vladimir Putin and his army. Then the minority puts up the distinguished general lady from Georgia who does not mention Ukraine once.
[21:10:02]
She does not mention the thousands of Ukrainian civilians who have been slaughtered by Putin`s army. She said that the aid that the taxpayers of America are sending to the people of Ukraine to defend themselves against Vladimir Putin and the Russian army falls into the hands of Nazis. I want to see her proof. Where is her evidence?
She talked about NATO Nazis. Does the minority believe that our allies in NATO who are trying to defend the people of Ukraine are Nazis? Has it come to this?
The gentlelady talked about a massive invasion. We had a massive invasion of our own chamber. And she continued to be a cheerleader for the insurrection. And denied what happened here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: A lot of Democrats saw that this weekend thought, now that is how to do it. Call them out. Called him out for what they are, for what they are doing. Even President Biden seems to be feeling his way towards doing more of that sort of thing. Speaking to teachers at the White House this week, he went off script for just a moment to marvel at Republicans trying to ban books.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Teaching is one of the hardest jobs in this country, to be able to do it well. And one of the most important. Today, there are too many politicians trying to score political points trying to ban books, even math books. Did you ever think, any of you younger teachers, did you ever think that you would be talking about book burnings, and banning books, all because it doesn`t fit somebody`s political agenda?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: CNN reports today that Biden is eager to go on the attack against the Republicans in the midterm campaign. I`m sure many Democrats, many of you watching at home are thinking, yes please! And the sooner the better.
But of course, it is not just what you say, it is what you do. The Democrats can`t just go on the attack. They have to do stuff that voters like as well. So, can they do both?
Who better to ask than Congressman Mondaire Jones in New York. He sits on the House Committee on Education and Labor, and is deputy whip of the Congressional Progressive Caucus.
Congressman, thank you for joining us tonight. We just went through a long list of Republican politicians, and the radical behavior, they`re crazy statements, they`re QAnon friends, what should Democrats be doing ahead of the midterms to draw attention to this behavior? Why not stop all of the kumbaya bipartisanship talk and call some of these Republicans what they are? Extremists, fascists even?
REP. MONDAIRE JONES (D-NY): I think that there is nothing wrong with speaking truth. Because the American people need to understand what is at stake in November. I think that by the time that we get to November they will. You are seeing Democrats obviously advocate in a community that works for everyone, even as we draw attention to the fact that the other folks are not trying to do that, and instead are being distracted by QAnon conspiracy theorists, like Madison Cawthorn, and Marjorie Taylor Greene, I am so hopeful to the point of actually doing something that this president is going to come through and cancel student debt, which is broadly popular with the American people across the political parties.
HASAN: I am going to come back to student debt in one moment, but just one more question about the whole extremism discussion. What is your reaction to Elon Musk, soon to be a new owner of Twitter, saying that the Democratic Party, your party, has been taken over by extremists?
You are a freshman congressman. A progressive. If you`re referring to people like you?
JONES: I think Elon Musk is referring to anyone who is going to hold people like him accountable. This is someone who is greedy to the point of no return. He is someone who has done quite well for himself, and of course, no one should begrudge someone who has done wall for themselves. But he`s someone who has repeatedly skirted accountability, someone who does not like to pay taxes, and someone who is demonstrably out of touch with reality.
When he talks about a major political party that is trying to undermine democracy itself, that party being the Republican Party, and describes that party are somehow being more in touch with the American people than Democrats, who are simply trying to provide health care for everybody to lower the cost of gas and groceries at the grocery store, and to provide military and humanitarian assistance to Ukraine in the midst of this nearly unprecedented assault by Vladimir Putin, you have got to ask yourself: what world is he living in?
HASAN: Yes. It is a very good question. It is a world we will all be living in soon on Twitter. That is for sure.
Back in February, let`s talk student debt. Back in February, you wrote, quote, student debt cancellation is good policy. It would lift multiple generations out of crushing that and allow them to invest in themselves, their families, and our economy. And it is massively popular among Americans, almost two out of every three voters across the political spectrum to support student loan cancellation. You said president Biden has the power to get this done with a stroke of a pan and it is time for him to do so.
[21:15:01]
I think Joe Biden has been listening to people like yourself, and others who have been pressuring him to stick to his campaign promise. He is now saying he is willing to cancel some debt. We are going to hear some announcements soon, but only some, not the 50K that Chuck Schumer and Elizabeth Warren wanted. Maybe the 10K he promised during the campaign, almost certainly heavily means tested.
I feel like it is going to be such a disappointment. Maybe I am being pessimistic. But I feel like it is going to be one of those policies that kind of hedges in between everyone, and ends up in raging both the right and the left, classic Democratic Party splitting the difference and upsetting everyone.
Why can`t you just go with the full 50k?
JONES: Look, well, Mehdi, I have seen no evidence that this president is going to means test student debt cancellation. We don`t means test Social Security and Medicare. We don`t means test K-12 public education.
The fact that somebody has student that to begin with is a form of means testing. So, let`s leave it at that, and make it a universal program. We know that Republicans, independents, and Democrats support this policy. This is the right thing to do. The research shows it is going to be a major boom for the economy in terms of the GDP.
And we also know that entire generations of people are unable to start families are unable to start businesses, are unable to pay off the skyrocketing costs of a college education, as wages have remained stagnant for decades when you adjust for inflation.
So, it is the right thing to do on the policy, and yes, on the politics as well. We see young people in particular, having an abysmal impression of the White House and I think that we need to make sure that we are taking every opportunity to show the American people that we are looking out for everybody, young and old. And that means taking a look at the trends of (INAUDIBLE) that college education is just out of reach, if you want to be able to afford to go to it.
HASAN: Congressman, you and I have discussed student debt before. I hope that you are right tonight when you say that it won`t be means tested. I guess we will find out very soon.
Congressman Mondaire Jones of New York, member of the House Committee of Education and Labor, deputy whip of the Congressional Progressive Caucus — thank you for your time.
JONES: Thank you.
HASAN: Tonight, we had expected to see former President Donald Trump hold a rally in Nebraska with his favorite candidate in that state`s Republican gubernatorial candidacy. Trump stuck by his longtime friend and donor Charles Herbst here in that race, despite Herbst facing sexual assault allegations from multiple women.
Earlier this month, “The Nebraska Examiner” reported that eight young women has accused Herbst or of groping them, at various events over the past five years. Late this afternoon, we learned that Trump`s rally with Herbst or has been postponed, not because of the allegations of sexual assault, but because of hail storms, tornadoes, and other incumbent weather in the area.
The two men both accused of sexual assault by multiple women have rescheduled their joint appearance for Sunday, after church, I guess.
We have much more ahead tonight. How Trump`s big lie is prompting some Republican election officials to apparently commit really weird crimes.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:22:50]
HASAN: Remember all of that talk from Republicans about voter fraud in the 2020 election? Or hysterical warnings about election tampering? It appears that they were right.
This is a picture of Dallas Schroeder, the top election official in Colorado, according to a new “Reuters” report. It was taken from a surveillance video where he was seen a copying computer drives containing sensitive voting information. That report states that Schroeder later testified that he not only made copies of that highly sensitive data, but he then gave it to two lawyers. But don`t worry, he said he took great care and what he was doing.
Quote, Schroeder said that he was careful to preserve chain of custody with the data he gave the attorneys, asserting that the copied hard drives remained in sealed containers.
Mr. Schroeder is now under investigation for possibly breaking election laws. And is being sued by the state of Colorado for not returning that data.
So, yes, Republicans were right to be worried about election tampering. Only this guy was a Republican himself. When those cameras caught him copying the computer hard drives, he was reportedly getting instructions by a political activist who is trying to prove that Trump won the election. Trump did not win the election.
And the reason we know all of this, the reason we know about any of this is because Mr. Schroeder caught up to this scheme and a very remarkable way. As “Reuters” reports, Schroeder admitted to copying the hard drives and a lawsuit that he joined with other Republican officials against Colorado secretary of state. It wasn`t exactly hiding what he was up to.
Apparently, this was just one of eight attempts to gain unauthorized access to voting systems in America that “Reuters” has uncovered since the 2020 election, and wait for it, each one involved local Republican officials or activists taking the big lie and wrecking havoc with it.
The story is yet another reminder of while we talk about politics on a very national level, Trump`s conspiracies about the 2020 election have already filtered all the way down to the most local of levels. It is permeated every level of Republican discourse. Right down to ordinary folks in districts all over the country who believe this stuff.
Joining us now is Nathan Layne, a journalist for “Reuters”, and one of the bylines on that reporting.
[21:25:02]
Thank you so much for being here.
We laid out the case of Mr. Schroeder, but can you highlight some of the other instances in which Republican officeholders, or party activists tried to gain access to voting systems?
NATHAN LAYNE, REUTERS REPORTER: Sure, sure. Yes. My colleague Alexander Olmert (ph) dug deep into the Schroeder case there in Colorado. I took a close look at several cases in Michigan. A crazy case in the village township where a Republican, and the presumed Trump supporter basically convinced three men that she was working for the government, working for Sidney Powell, and convinced them to head to the local government office and started tempering with the vote tabulator there.
And another case in Michigan, in Adam Township, it was actually the clerk. She is a Republican who was essentially refusing state orders to perform maintenance on the machine because she believed that it could erase evidence of fraud in the 2020 election. And since the county officials came to take possession of the machine, she had taken a key component and kept it in her office. And that is being investigated as a criminal investigation.
HASAN: Wow. And there is a recurring theme, especially in your reporting of, quote, preserving evidence, even as these people break election laws on camera, or admit to doing so in legal filings. I know that you are not a psychologist, you are a reporter, but can you speak to the rationale behind these vigilante investigations of how they are able to persuade people to do them?
LAYNE: Well, sure. It is exactly as you laid out previously. The rhetoric is there. The Trump, and his allies talk about how the election was rigged against him. And his followers, and his supporters believe that.
So, it is a leap. But, it is one that some people are willing to take to go from that rhetoric to action. And if you talk with people, especially in rural parts of these states that we looked at, they believe it. I have been alarmed, and very surprised at the level of believe, and how strongly they believe that the election was rigged.
And what is remarkable is that in many cases, they are choosing to believe conspiracy theorists, and election deny lists, over their own county officials. I talked about Adams Township. There is the county clerk there who oversees the local clerks. He is a Republican, and a very reputable clerk. And he has been trying to guide that process.
But they just, they are more willing to believe someone like Sidney Powell than they are their local officials.
HASAN: Yes. I wonder what their media is like. I suspect a lot of these people are not listening to officials because they are busy watching Fox, Newsmax, and OAN.
And quick last question, this guy Schroeder, in Colorado, I believe he is running for — despite being investigated for election tampering. Is there a trend here or is he an outlier? They`re just not caring and running for more offices?
LAYNE: Yes. You see that. A lot of the people that are sort of caught in these instances they are not backing down. I have seen some reporting about, it was an attempted breach, but in North Carolina were local Republican leader essentially was threatening the local elections official, that if she did not give access to the voting equipment, he was going to get her fired. And we reported about that a week ago.
And he has since organized another of and, with an election denier. So there is really no backing down.
HASAN: There isn`t. I would call these people shameless if that requires them to have shame in the first place.
Nathan Layne, reporter for “Reuters”, thank you so much for your time tonight. Thank you for your reporting.
LAYNE: Thank you.
HASAN: Up next, a far-right conspiracy theorist who many Republicans have cozied up to four years, now finds himself in trouble. Why Alex Jones is currently embracing the quote, deep state, he normally rages against. That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:34:13]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: Your reputation is amazing. I will not let you down. He will be very, very impressed, I hope. And I think we`ll be speaking a lot. You`ll be looking at me in a year, or a year or two years. I`m a bit of time to run things. But a year into office, you will be saying well, I remember that interview. He said he was going to do it, and he did a great job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: That was then candidate Donald Trump praising the right-wing conspiracy theorists Alex Jones in an interview on Jones`s “Infowars” show as a presidential candidate back in 2015. At the time, Alex Jones was three years until his vial attacks on the victims of the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting where 26 people, including 20 kids, were shot dead in their classrooms. And he was getting rich doing it.
[21:35:01]
Trump didn`t care.
Over the next three years, Alex Jones` online story would make it more than $30 million annually, selling body armor and dietary supplements, as websites on average of 1.4 million visits daily. That interview was one of candidate Donald Trump`s earliest experience and normalizing and promoting dangerous far-right conspiracy theorists.
It serves as a dark warning sign of where American politics would eventually end quickly end up. About two political parties have been so willing to condone and tolerate French conspiracy theories, the Trump`s followers attempted a coup against the seat of American government. A fat conveniently and regulatory foregone an excuse by the parties leaders.
But that moment is also reminder that even the most influential conspiracy theorists can be beaten. Nearly seven years later, Donald Trump is still the de facto leader of the Republican Party. But Alex Jones is on the brink of a run. Thanks to a series of defamation lawsuits brought by the families of the victims of the 2012 Sandy Hook shooting. Thanks to that, Alex Jones not find him self liable for millions of dollars in damages.
His companies are not trying to declare bankruptcy and desperate attempt to profound a fortune he made pushing lies and diet supplements from being seized. And hearing today in a Texas bankruptcy court, Jones`s lawyers made references to free speech, and Elon Musk`s purchase to Twitter to try to paint Jones and his businesses as victims of the so-called woke mob.
None of that seems to have helped them. The judge overseeing the case said, he could make a decision on Alex Jones bankruptcy ploy as soon as next month. But perhaps, there`s no better example of just how far Alex Jones has fallen and the fact that he is now begging for help from the dreaded deep state he spent so many years railing against.
Last week, Jones probably reach out to the Justice Department to try to get an immunity deal in exchange for cooperating with the departments investigation into January 6. Jones was in D.C. on the 6.
Two people familiar with the matter told “New York Times” reporter Elizabeth Williamson this week that such an immunity deal is unlikely to materialize, leaving Alex Jones out in the cold. No one, not the Justice Department, the bankruptcy courts, or even the former president appear eager to have a lifeline. So does that mean for Alex Jones?
And his case and model for how to push back on the battlers of disinformation and the present age?
Joining me now is “New York Times” reporter Elizabeth Williamson who has been covering Alex Jones` legal troubles. She`s also there are the reason book “Sandy Hook: An American Tragedy in the Battle for Truth”.
Thanks so much for joining us tonight. Walk me through what Alex Jones`s situation is here, and I`ll much money eventually have to pay out to the Sandy Hook families in the end.
ELIZABETH WILLIAMSON, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Sure, Mehdi. So, I think what`s happening here is, the bankruptcy idea is a way to avoid the jury trials. So, late last year, Alex Jones was found liable in four separate defamation suits filed by the Sandy Hook families. That`s because he was obstructing the discovery process and the right up to trial but the judges found him liable by the fall.
So, that means that this year, and it was supposed to begin this week, juries would need to decide how much he must pay the Sandy Hook families in damages. The bankruptcy filing was filed exactly one week before those trials where to begin. And so, this is seen by the Justice Department, bankruptcy court overseer, and the Sandy Hook families lawyers, as a ploy to delay these jury trials for damages, which as you point out, could cost millions of dollars and potentially his business.
HASAN: And the other part of this bustle, of course, the whole DOJ angle. What do we make of Jones trying to cooperate with the Biden Justice Department. Will this help with the bankruptcy case, does the implicitly accept that it will come to the January six?
WILLIAMSON: I think these are two separate issues which have one thing in common. I lost that he is seeking protection from the government which he maligns daily on his show. I think he sees himself as under threat. And, you know, in the Justice Department, investigation to January 6 insurrection, he has been subpoenaed by the House, and he`s reached out to offer a deal to immunity from prosecution to justice in exchange for his testimony.
This probably isn`t going to fly because, partly because he may not know much. So, that`s one issue. And then a separate issue is as we discuss, the bankruptcy case in which he is seeking protection from a federal bankruptcy court for his business. It`s a very unusual bankruptcy filing and that Alex Jones himself hasn`t filed for bankruptcy, just these shell companies.
It`s an effort to ask — to force the Sandy Hook families into a $10 million settlement which is saying that he doesn`t have the finances to do anything further. But this is someone who has made a half million dollars in revenue in the time of the Sandy Hook shooting to the president.
HASAN: Wow.
And last quick question on that. He`s made a lot of money, he has a big reach. Donald Trump went on a show. Matt Gaetz went on a show. Jones got White House credentials at one point, press credentials during the Trump era.
He was mainstream and normalized, this hate monger, this purveyor of anti-Semitism, this bully of families by top people in the Republican Party, wasn`t he?
WILLIAMSON: Yes, and the issue there is that there is a segment of Alex Jones`s audience that was a very valuable constituency for former President Trump. That is the group of people, conspiracy-minded, deeply distrustful of the government, who put him over the top in the presidential election in 2016.
HASAN: Yes, they did. “New York Times” writer Elizabeth Williamson, thanks so much for your time on your analysis tonight, I appreciate it.
WILLIAMS: Sure thing, Mehdi.
HASAN: Still ahead, cracks seem to be forming and Vladimir Putin`s inner circle as more civilians are killed by Russian airstrikes across Ukraine. A member of the Ukrainian parliament joins us from Kyiv to discuss. That`s next. Don`t go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[21:45:59]
HASAN: If you know a thing or two about Russia, then you are familiar with headlines like these. This is from “The Guardian” a few years back, quote, did he jump or was he pushed? Russian journalists fear worse after another death.
Or this one from two years ago. Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny in coma after suspected poisoning.
Here is a particularly blunt one. A trio of wealthy Russians made in a enemy of Putin, now they are all dead.
If you know anything about Russia, then you know that speaking up against Vladimir Putin has consequences. For about reason, even those closest to him, the economic elite, the oligarchs, are too afraid to speak out. But now, with the illegal invasion of Ukraine and the epic economic sanctions imposed by the U.S. and Europe on Russia, the tide may be turning.
From “The Washington Post” today, quote, cracks emerged in Russian elite as tycoon start to bemoan invasion. In the two months since Russia invaded Ukraine, the silence and even acquiescence of the Russian elite has started to fray. And some of the tycoons, especially those who made their fortunes before President Vladimir Putin came to power have begun tentatively to speak.
In one day, they destroyed which was built over many years. It is a catastrophe, said one businessman, who was summoned along with many of the countries other richest men to meet putting on the day of the invasion. Another oligarch simply called the invasion of Ukraine, quote, insanity.
But let`s be realistic. These guys are starting to speak out, off the record, because they are worried about their money. While it is still a good thing that they are starting to talk, it is worth reminding everyone that Ukraine is losing much, much more.
President Zelenskyy said today that at least 900 bodies have been discovered thus far in mass graves surrounding Ukraine`s capital. The mayor of Mariupol said that more than 600 people were injured after Russia bombed a makeshift hospital inside the Azovstal steel plant, where the last defenders of the city along with hundreds of civilians are hiding.
What is taking place is unconscionable. This was the reaction today from Pentagon spokesperson John Kirby when asked whether or not Putin is a rational actor given Russia`s scorched-earth invasion of Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: It`s hard to look at what he is doing in Ukraine, what`s his forces are doing in Ukraine, and think that any ethical, moral, individual could justify that. It is difficult to look at the — sorry. It is difficult to look at some of the images. And imagine that anyone thinking, serious, mature leader would do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HASAN: Mr. Kirby went on to say quote, I can talk to his psychology, but I think we can all speak to his depravity.
To counter that depravity, the U.S. continues to ramp up aid to nearly 20 plates of military aid arrived in Europe from the U.S. to be immediately transferred to Ukraine. It comes as President Biden has asked Congress to approve a whopping $33 billion package to supply Ukraine with military economic, and humanitarian aid for the next five months.
Joining us now is Ukrainian member of parliament, Inna Sovsun. She is live from Kyiv.
Inna, good to see you again. Thanks for being with us.
You and I have spoken multiple times since the start of this war. What phase of the war are we in right now in your view, and how bad is the situation for the Ukrainian people tonight, especially in Kyiv where you are?
INNA SOVSUN, UKRAINIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: First of all, thank you for having me again. And for probably the first time, I am actually happy to say that we are truly grateful to the U.S., to the people, to the administration for the decision that was taken recently about the land lease and money that would be allocated to Ukrainians.
That is truly a big step. We are so appreciative of thought over here in Ukraine. I just wanted to think on behalf of all of us here for the decisions that have been made.
[21:50:04]
Because indeed, the war right now in this stage, we are major battles have taken place in the east, they are not widely reported on the media, because those are around smaller towns, and the Russians are not taking over large pieces of territories (AUDIO GAP).
But they are moving very, you know, step-by-step taking smaller village by a smaller village, and that of course is extremely scary. They keep on hitting with missiles cities all around Ukraine. Kyiv was hit about 24 hours ago. And it was an apartment building that was hit.
It was something very personal on my side, because I actually owned an apartment in that living complex half a year ago. I sold it, but when I looked at the pictures of it, I realized it. It was where I actually owned an apartment in a different building next to that. That just is terrifying.
And when people went through there is terrifying. And actually one journalist lived in that house, she was killed in that strike. She has a journalist for Radio Liberty and they reported her death a couple hours ago.
So he continues, he continues his attacks. He proceeds on the east. And the major thing that we are waiting for, of course, those weapons that are to be delivered, because they urgently needed on the east to stop Russians there. That is the major thing that needs to happen right now.
HASAN: You mentioned they were terrifying a moment ago. You have Russian state TV hosts openly discussing now the possibility of not just World War III with the West, but nuclear war, using nukes, and saying basically, it is okay, we will all die someday, and Russians will go to heaven.
How worried are you that Moscow decides to go nuclear at some point? How much is that risk increased in recent weeks?
SOVSUN: I think the risk has always been there. It is truly terrifying, of course. Trust me, nobody in Ukraine wants to risk our lives, the lives of our loved ones. I still have hope that given the procedure that needs to take place for the set of the nuclear bomb, actually, there will be people on the way that will have to get their approval for the hit that will actually stop that. Because they will realize that that would be the end not just two several Ukrainians, several thousands Ukrainians lives, but it will also be the end of their lives. And I think that they are not suicidal.
HASAN: We hope you are right. We are out of time now.
But, Inna Sovsun, member of the Ukrainian parliament, thank you for taking the time tonight. Please do stay safe.
SOVSUN: Thank you.
HASAN: One last story to get to tonight. And it has to do with the American who helped put the last pro-Russian president in Ukraine into office. This guy. Donald Trump`s former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort.
The Justice Department is now suing him for millions of dollars. The reason may surprise you.
Stay with us.
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[21:57:54]
HASAN: When Donald Trump ran for president in 2016, he hired as his campaign chairman this guy, Paul Manafort. It will never not be an absolutely crazy thing that our last president chose as his campaign chair a guy who had spent the past many years and Ukraine working for a pro-Putin political party, and helping install a Kremlin-friendly autocrat as Ukraine`s president.
The reason he was available to run Donald Trump`s campaign was that the people of Ukraine had finally risen up in a revolution, and that pro-Putin autocrat, Manafort`s boss, had fled to Russia. That democratic revolution in Ukraine sparked Vladimir Putin`s invasion, an annexation of Crimea, and everything that came after.
We are also living through the historical consequences of Paul Manafort`s Ukraine misadventures. But what Manafort got out of the years of working for the pro-Putin political party in Ukraine, was money, lots and lots of money. In 2018, Manafort was convicted of using secret foreign accounts to hide the tens of millions of dollars he made. He also pled guilty to money laundering, and obstruction.
He served two years of a seven and a half year prison sentence. But then he was pardoned by President Trump just before he left office, of course he was. And even knocked back a bunch of real estate he had to — real estate he bought with those ill gotten gains. He recently sold his mansion for more than $10 million. Not a bad deal.
But here is a plot twist we did not see coming. You may recall that when Manafort was convicted on eight felony counts back in 2018, there were another ten charges on which the jury could not reach a verdict. The judge in the case declared a mistrial on those ten counts.
Well, the Justice Department appears to have decided that those counts are not covered by Trump`s pardon. That Trump pardon applies only to the stuff Manafort was convicted for, or pled guilty to, because yesterday the Justice Department filed a brand-new civil suit against Paul Manafort over some of those secret foreign bank accounts where he hid his millions from all of his work in Ukraine, accounts for which he was never convicted.
The Justice Department says he owes the U.S. government almost $3 million in penalties for hiding those accounts. Penalty is the government has been trying to collect from him for the last two years. And now they are asking the court to make him pay up.
Trump`s pardoned looked like he put an end to his accountability for hiding all of that money he made doing pro-Putin dirty work in Ukraine. But now it looks like the U.S. justice system might not quite be finished with Paul Manafort.
That does it for us tonight. Rachel will be here on Monday, and I will see you Sunday night at 8:00 p.m. on my show here on MSNBC, and next week back on Peacock.
Now, it`s time for “THE LAST WORD”. Jonathan Capehart is in for Lawrence tonight.
Good evening, Jonathan.
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