Updated
Summary
New text messages show Trump allies` secret effort to overturn 2020 election. Judge holds Trump in contempt in N.Y. legal battle. Top U.S. officials meet with Zelenskyy in Kyiv. New Russian attacks in key Ukrainian cities. Elon Musk reaches deal to buy Twitter. Perdue repeats Trump election lies in debate.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And we`re out of time. THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, the new explosive January 6 text messages between Trump`s inner circle and the usual GOP suspects in Congress. While the former president has more legal troubles of his own, he`s been found in contempt.
Then two Cabinet members making high stakes, high risk trip to the capital of Ukraine, as Russia strikes deeper into the country.
Plus, the latest acquisition to the world`s richest man. The question is, once he owns it, will he actually want it? As THE 11TH HOUR gets underway on a Monday night?
Good evening, once again, good to be back with you. I am Stephanie Ruhle. And we begin this evening with those new revelations about how Trump`s most loyal allies schemed to try to keep him in power at the center of that effort, his last Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.
CNN has obtained more than 2300 text messages that Meadows turned over to the January 6 Committee, sent and received between Election Day 2020 and Joe Biden`s inauguration.
There are texts from family members, Trump`s lawyer, former White House officials, dozens of Republican House members and campaign officials. Two are from Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene on December 31, 2020, she wrote this, “I`m here in D.C., we have to get organized for the 6th. I would like to meet with Rudy Giuliani again.”
And here`s what Greene sent Meadows on January 6, during the Capitol riot, “Mark, I was just told there`s an active shooter on the first floor of the Capitol, please tell the President to calm people. This isn`t the way to solve anything.”
NBC News has not confirmed the 1000s of text messages passed. And so far, Meadows refuses to give a deposition to the January 6 committee. This evening, we heard from one committee member on that very subject.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN, (D) MARYLAND HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON JANUARY 6: All of these 1000s of texts make the argument for why we need Mark Meadows to come in and testify to explain precisely what his role was. What was their attitude towards the violence on the streets? What was their plan? How far were they willing to take it? The assertion was that this was just, you know, a wild demonstration as it had been called by Donald Trump that got out of control. But it was really a lot more than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And according to Friday night`s court filing from the committee, Meadows was warned that the rally could become violent. In testimony to the committee, one of Meadows` top aides said a Senior Secret Service agent alerted Meadows to intel about possible violence.
Meanwhile, there is new separate legal trouble for the former President. A New York judge holding Trump in contempt of court for failing to turn over documents to the state attorney general who`s investigating him for fraud. Trump has now been ordered to pay 10,000 bucks a day starting today until he cooperates and his lawyers no surprise are promising to appeal.
With that, let`s bring in this evening`s first experts a pair of Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Phil Rucker, Deputy National Editor at the Washington Post and Carol Leonnig, investigative reporter with The Washington Post. They co-authored the New York Times best seller. I Alone Can Fix It. And MSNBC Contributor Chuck Rosenberg joins us, former U.S. attorney and a former Senior FBI official.
Good evening to you all, Carol, I want to start with you. Three days, three days before the inauguration, Marjorie Taylor Greene sent this text message to Mark Meadows, “In our private chat with only members several are saying the only way to save our republic is for Trump to call for Marshall law.”
Note on your screen she misspells the word martial, as though she is writing about the off price retailer, which of course she wasn`t.
Now, last week, last Friday night, Marjorie Taylor Greene herself testified under oath. She couldn`t remember telling Trump or his chief of staff to declare martial law. So where do you even begin with this is, are these damaging for her besides her reputation?
RUHLE: Phil?
CAROL LEONNIG, THE WASHINGTON POST INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: It`s extremely damaging.
RUHLE: Carol, excuse me.
LEONNIG: Sorry. That`s right. It`s extremely damaging and not just because she misspelled, you know, the Marshall Plan versus martial law. But it`s worrisome because it indicates, I mean, think about the two things we learned and just one text here. One is that they`re having very secretive closed door member only meetings likely I presume based on the context Freedom Caucus members who are discussing on moss, the idea of martial law three days before Biden is to be inaugurated.
[23:05:16]
The stunning nature of this, as you can tell, Stephanie, is we hadn`t known that after January 6, after the democracy was almost pushed off the rails by some of these Freedom Caucus members who were trying to put maximum pressure on Congress members not to certify the election. We didn`t realize that even after that attack, they were still pressing for this very point. And the secretive nature of it is also pretty interesting goes to the issue of intent. You know, what were they hoping to do? Hide what they were doing first and foremost.
RUHLE: But, Chuck, here`s the thing, if we were to make a list of things, Marjorie Taylor Greene has said or done that are worrisome, we`d be here all day and all night. In a court of law, does her saying she doesn`t remember, is that good enough? Did she get away with it? She didn`t say I didn`t do it. She said, I don`t remember.
CHUCK ROSENBERG, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Yeah, I mean, Stephanie, you`d have to be able to prove that when she said, I don`t remember. She really did remember, and she was lying about not remembering. And of course, that gets hard. The way you would do that would be to talk to people around her to see if she had concocted some kind of story. But that`s the problem with perjury cases generally, they`re very hard to prove, because you need a very precise question. I need a very precise answer. And if somebody says something like to the best of my recollection, or I don`t really recall, then perjury becomes almost impossible. So to your question, does she get away with that? Probably.
RUHLE: Phil, I want you to take a look at some of the text messages sent to Mark Meadows as the insurrection was happening. Former Trump official Mick Mulvaney, “He, Trump, needs to stop this now. Congressman Bill Timmons, “The President needs to stop this ASAP.”
Donald Trump Jr. himself, writes, “This is one you go to the mattresses on. They will try to F his entire legacy if this gets worse. Reince Priebus writes, “Tell them to go home.”
Many — OK, here`s the issue though. They write all of this on January 6, and just as a few days later, many of these very same people said the riot was overblown. Americans want to move on. How do they square this? Or do they have to, Phil, do they just bank that the news cycle moves on and their supporters aren`t paying attention?
PHILIP RUCKER, THE WASHINGTON POST WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Stephanie, it`s this revisionist history. But what we see in the text messages is that even Trump`s most stalwart allies on Capitol Hill and elsewhere in the Republican firmament, we`re seeing what was playing out with their own eyes. What we all saw as Americans that day, which is violent, rioters storming the Capitol, and hurting people and trying to lay siege to our democracy and they were alarmed. They wanted urgently for the President to call his supporters to stand down.
And what we know is that it took President Trump 187 minutes from when he touched spoke at the ellipse at that rally and told his supporters to go march on the Capitol until he finally reluctantly agreed to step into the Rose Garden at 4:17 that afternoon, and deliver his video statement telling his supporters to go home.
That was an excruciating period for all of those who cared about the Trump legacy, who had worked and sacrifice their own character and reputations in the service of this President to see him be silent for so long. And I think that`s why you saw the urgency the all caps messages that they picked off to Mark Meadows, the Chief of Staff.
RUHLE: Chuck, I want to share what former SDNY Prosecutor Daniel Goldman had to say, his reaction to these revelations. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL GOLDMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: We`re seeing text messages more and more come out about everybody begging Donald Trump to intervene. And he just refused. I mean, what kind of a leader of any responsibility would just sit there watching? And when they had the authority to intervene and do nothing?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: But, Chuck, we know what type of leader, Trump didn`t stop it, because he loved it, because it was in his honor. There`s no debate about that. The question is, can they take any of this information gathered and filed criminal charges?
ROSENBERG: Well, I know I answered your last question with — probably, Stephanie. I`m going to answer this one with a maybe, again, it`s going to turn on intent. So you`d have to show that he read the text messages, that he understood the text messages, that he didn`t care that he intended. This is the important part, that he intended for Congress to be obstructed in its counting of the electoral vote.
Dan`s right about the moral deficiency of our former president. That`s not news. What we have to do if you want to hold someone accountable in criminal court and prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt to a unanimous jury is prove intent. And prosecutors will tell you it`s always the hardest thing to do. That`s why you have to talk to the people who were around Mr. Trump. You can`t just rely on the text messages. They`re interesting. They`re important. They may even be evidence, but they do not conclusively establish intent.
[23:10:29]
RUHLE: They sell books, but they might not result in punitive consequences.
Carol, you are our expert when it comes to the Secret Service. And according to Friday night`s January 6 committee court filing a Secret Service agent had warned Meadows about possible violence on the 6th. What do we know about that agent?
LEONNIG: It`s a really complicated and controversial hosting. This was a very senior leader, the leader of President Trump`s protective detail for at least a year and a half. Donald Trump liked him so much. He wanted to make him a political adviser. And in a huge break with Secret Service tradition, you know, an objective agency that`s supposed to be nonpartisan. This man Tony Ornado was named White House Deputy Chief of Staff.
So at the moment that he was giving Donald Trump political advice about how to get reelected, run good campaigns, or for example, clear protesters who were peaceful from Lafayette Square on June 1, one of the more authoritarian moves of Trump`s presidency, when he was serving Donald Trump, he was not a secret service agent, he was White House Deputy Chief of Staff, these are things returned to the Secret Service. But one of the most disturbing things for my sources, current and former secret service agents is this individual was essentially enabling Donald Trump and everything that he did. And here now we`re learning that he had plenty of inside intel from the Secret Service that January 6 could turn bloody. And yet that didn`t change how the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Justice, the FBI, the entities that are supposed to protect our country, from domestic extremism, that didn`t change how they behaved.
RUHLE: It could turn bloody and it did.
Chuck, I want to ask you about Trump`s other issue, the legal problems he`s having, he has now been held in contempt. And he`s going to owe 10,000 bucks a day starting today if he doesn`t cooperate, but here`s the thing, Donald Trump in is well versed in not paying his bills. He`s an expert in it. So what happens if he doesn`t pay?
ROSENBERG: Well, first, let me distinguish something for your viewers. I know they`re smart, but they may not know this. There`s criminal contempt where you punish somebody for not complying. That`s not this case. And there`s civil contempt, which is this case where you`re trying to compel somebody to comply, what the judge is doing by finding Mr. Trump $10,000 a day is trying to compel his compliance. So Mr. Trump holds the proverbial key, Stephanie, he can either hand over the documents that perhaps he`s hiding, or he can convince the judge that they have diligently searched for documents, and there are no more.
So if he doesn`t want to pay $10,000 a day and a fine. He actually has a really easy path out of this. The question is, will he take that path? Or will he continue to stonewall the court and the Attorney General of the State of New York and one way he could do that, of course, and you know, he`s good at this as well, is by appealing the trial court`s decision to hold him in contempt. We`ll see. But if he doesn`t want to pay a fine, there`s a really easy way not to pay the fine.
RUHLE: All right, Chuck is giving us criminal consequences, civil consequences, Phil, we`re learning a lot in this new book by these New York Times reporters. But here`s the thing we`ve learned a lot from so many of these books. But shamefulness and hypocrisy don`t result in crimes. Did we learn anything that could translate into real political consequences?
RUCKER: Well, from this book, we learned a few things that helped fill out the character of the Republican leaders on Capitol Hill. Of course, the news from the Jonathan Martin and Alex Burns book last week about Kevin McCarthy wanting to call on or telling fellow House members that he wanted Trump to resign. But then tonight, we learned in an excerpt that our colleague Josh Dawsey, obtained that Mitch McConnell, the Senate Republican leader, late in the night of January 6, said he believed that that event, that riot at the Capitol was going to be fatal politically for Trump. He said something along the lines of and I`m paraphrasing here, he really shot himself in the head, this time referring to President Trump, because he had instigated those rioters to storm the Capitol. And McConnell was exhilarated by it. He was celebrating that moment because he thought it was finally the event that would do Trump in.
[23:15:10]
He even inquired with the authors of this book about the 25th Amendment, whether Cabinet members in the administration. One of them, of course, was his own wife, Elaine Chao, the Transportation Secretary, whether Cabinet members and the Vice President were considering some sort of late action to remove the president from office, he seems to be almost gleeful at the political, the dire political state that President Trump found himself in, in the hours after that attack.
RUHLE: Riveting, interesting, it will sell books, however, it is unclear if there will be any consequences. I`m interested to see those text messages with Mick Mulvaney. If he`ll join CBS this Morning tomorrow and discuss with them exactly what he meant in those texts. He`s a contributor there now.
Phil Rucker, Carol Leonnig, Chuck Rosenberg, always great to see you all.
Coming up next, the U.S. calls for weakening Russia`s military as it continues its brutal assault on civilians in Ukraine. Former Ambassador Michael McFaul is standing by.
And later, what happens next? Now that this country`s most influential social media platform belongs to the world`s richest man. THE 11TH HOUR just getting underway on a busy Monday night. Good to be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:21:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can`t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine.
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: When it comes to Russia`s war aims, Russia is failing. Ukraine is succeeding. We don`t know how the rest of this war will unfold. But we do know that a sovereign independent Ukraine will be around a lot longer than Vladimir Putin is on the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: In the hours after the Secretary of Defense and State completed a risky trip by train this past weekend to meet with President Zelenskyy in Kyiv, Russia has been intensifying its attacks targeting infrastructure deep inside the country. NBC`s Cal Perry is live for us tonight in Kyiv. Cal, what was that trip all about? Was it a ceremonial show of force? Or did it mean something more for them to be there?
CAL PERRY, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Look, I think part of it was the ceremony show of force that being here on the ground showing the Russians that these two senior members of the U.S. government are willing to travel here a city at war, a city that was going through air raid sirens to physically show their support. We`ve seen it from European leaders, now we have it from American leaders.
Secondary to that was to deliver weapons and to deliver the news of these weapons that are basically coming right now. And then finally, I think part of the mission was to say what they said to the international world when they were back in Poland, and that is that a weaker Russia is what America is after and that the tide of this war has changed that Ukrainians now have the Russians for the first time on the move, Stephanie.
RUHLE: Help us understand, you have been in the region for months, but you`ve never been in Kyiv specifically, how has this country changed? What is it like there now?
PERRY: So look, I think when I was here on my first trip, and I took a brief two to three week break out, there was a lot of talk and a lot of discussion about how the Ukrainians were slowing the Russians down, how they were able to defend Kyiv. And keep those tanks on the outer edge, and we saw that driving in.
The destruction is everywhere. But the Russians were stopped dead in their tracks on the outskirts of this city. Now, the discussion is about how many Russians can be killed before Russia flees this country. There is a concern of nuclear retaliation. There`s a concern that Russia could use chemical weapons. But for the first time since this war started, it feels like and we`re hearing from the government that they have Russia on the run.
For example, these howitzers, they want long range artillery, not just to keep the Russians at bay, this artillery goes 40 kilometers into Russian lines is to actually turn the Russians around and push them back into Russia. Stephanie.
RUHLE: Cal Perry, thank you. Good to see you, again. I appreciate you joining us.
I want to bring in Michael McFaul into the conversation, former U.S. Ambassador to Russia, and MSNBC International Affairs Analyst. His book titled, From Cold War to Hot Peace: An American Ambassador in Putin`s Russia.
Ambassador, I want to start with what we heard from Secretary Blinken, this message Ukraine is winning, Russia is losing. Is that how Ukrainians feel? I spent the last week volunteering at the Poland Ukraine border. And all those people who are crossing the border had lost everything. They lost their homes, they were leaving their sons, they were leaving their husbands. They certainly didn`t feel like they were winning. So is he right to be sending that message?
AMB. MICHAEL MCFAUL, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Yes and no. So I think it`s right to send that message about the war altogether. Because remember, what were the key objectives that Putin said he was going to do? First, he was going to annex all of Ukraine because they don`t deserve to exist as an independent nation. He failed that. He was going to do not certify the country, that`s regime change. Kill Zelenskyy, put his puppet in place in Kyiv. He failed at that. He was going to destroy the Ukrainian military, he failed at that. Take the major cities, including most importantly, Kyiv, he failed that that.
So now, Putin himself has changed the goals of their military special military operation, as they call it, which is the defense of Donbas. So if you think about the war Ukraine is winning but there still is the battle of Donbas, and that is where the action is now, that is where there`s going to be huge casualties. The Ukrainians feel confident, as you were just discussing, but I think it`s premature to say the Ukrainians are just, you know, weeks away from winning the battle of Donbas. I`m not prepared to say that I think this is going to be a bloody hard fight.
[23:25:26]
RUHLE: Then what do you think about Secretary Blinken`s message that the U.S. is going to reopen its embassy in Ukraine, eventually, he predicted that diplomats are going to be back in the capitol within weeks.
MCFAUL: Fabulous. And I really want to give my congratulations for them to make that trip. I talked to one of the senior officials on the Ukrainian side in that meeting today. And it was more than symbolism. They had a very substantive conversation about concrete military assistance that they need. And they had a big discussion about sanctions to, which the Ukrainians really want the west now to focus on especially now that President Macron has won reelection.
And third, it will be very important, they announced a nominee Bridget Brink as the new ambassador. I know Bridget, she`s a fantastic hire. I hope the Senate will not do the things that they normally do these days, and get her through. Because they want to have Americans in Kyiv.
By the way, they want to have military officers from the United States in Kyiv, so that they can talk to them on a daily basis. And that`s what comes when you have the embassy open there as opposed to, you know, in Poland or Lviv.
RUHLE: Your team, I know has been working on ideas for new sanctions. When I was away last week, I met with a lot of people who has family still living in Russia, Russians and their parents, their siblings in Russia. And they told me that over the last 10 years since the country has become more and more isolated. Russia has become self-sustaining. People need fewer and fewer things because they haven`t had foreign businesses to be relying on and they`re not actually feeling the sanction so much. Do you see that to be true?
MCFAUL: No. So individuals may think that and most certainly the farther you live from Moscow and the major cities, that is true, sanctions have less impact on you there. But if you`re trying to build tanks, not being able to get the chips that you need to build those tanks, it has a very direct effect. If you`re in the oil and gas industry, and you need technology to come in, it has a very direct effect. And don`t believe me, listen to the Russian government officials when they talk about the giant economic hit, that they`re going to suffer this year because of sanctions. It doesn`t mean that Putin is going to pull out right away, but sanctions are having economic consequences, especially for the big cities in Russia.
RUHLE: All right, then. We`re going to leave on that note, Ambassador McFaul, always good to see you. Thank you for making us smarter tonight.
MCFAUL: Sure.
RUHLE: Coming up, he is a billionaire making really big promises, including authenticating all humans. What Elon Musk buying his new Twitter toy really means for the rest of us, when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:32:56]
RUHLE: The world`s richest guy is set to buy one of the world`s most influential social media companies. After weeks of uncertainty, Elon Musk struck a deal to buy Twitter at a price of roughly 44 billion bucks. But the question is, what`s he going to do with it?
Twitter as a company as a stock has massively underperformed? That is not a secret. Activists have tried to change it. But it is such a huge undertaking fraught with conflict and politics and craziness. Those who could raise the money to buy it don`t want the responsibility or the headache. So what`s it going to look like?
And for that, let`s welcome New York Times contributing writer and host of the Sway and Pivot podcast my dear friend Kara Swisher, and NBC News Tech Correspondent Jake Ward, who has been covering disinformation and studies the effect of social media on human behavior.
Kara, you are an Elon Musk expert. He might be the only person with the money, the brazenness and the love of chaos to actually do this. But now here we are, what`s it going to look like?
KARA SWISHER, CO-HOST OF VOX MEDIA`S PIVOT PODCAST: Well, the last two are critically important to this endeavor. As you know, this is really kind of a big, big swing for him. And he`s doing something that a lot of people sort of wanted to do, but couldn`t because of the controversy or antitrust scrutiny or anything else. And he was probably one of the few in the position to pull off something like this.
I don`t know what it`s going to look like. He`s talks about being a free speech platform. I`m not sure what that means. He talks sort of insults advertising, as did Jack Dorsey in a very similar tweet. Interestingly, similar tweet, he talks about it being a place where there`s trusts where there`s open algorithms. So it`s a lot of words and it`s kind of a word salad. We`ll see what it means in execution going forward, but actually, we won`t see because you`re not going to be able to see into this company anymore if it goes private.
RUHLE: Okay, but Jake, it`s great to talk about these things in platitudes. Right now, Elon Musk has the privilege of being a heckler posing as a free speech warrior. But what he`s about to become is a massive content moderator on one of the biggest platforms. How does that mean? Is that a job that he wants to do?
[23:35:]
JAKE WARD, NBC NEWS TECH CORRESPONDENT: You know it is not at all clear here, Stephanie, that you know his incredible popularity on Twitter, right? He has over 80 million followers in any way qualifies him or prepares him to run the party, right? You just can`t necessarily gain the experience you need, being in charge of one of the world`s top political and social interaction platforms, just because you`re really one of the loudest voices on it. I mean, you know, as Kara pointed out, there`s really no telling what this thing is going to look like. Especially because this guy has no experience whatsoever with any of the lines of business involved in Twitter. He has no media experience, he has no experience with advertising, Tesla doesn`t even really advertise.
And, you know, the idea that he`s also now going to be essentially the referee of major political speech around the world, including possibly the decision of whether or not to bring Donald Trump back onto the platform. And in doing so, possibly, you know, supercharge a second presidential bid. I mean, all of that is definitely way outside what Elon Musk has ever done before. Now, even though he is, of course, so accomplished and all these other areas of industry.
RUHLE: Then given all that, Kara, that he might not like the daily grind of this job, the scrutiny it`s going to put on his life. Should we be thinking about when and if he doesn`t like this? Who could he end up selling it to?
SWISHER: Well, he could run it for a while then take it public again. I mean, he`s going to keep in the current CEO, obviously, Jack Dorsey is involved. He tweeted a very unusual tweet about Radiohead, and a song and this is the way it should be. It sounds like he was planning with Elon and the way these tweets ran. I`m not even sure, I can`t even tell.
Obviously, Jeff Bezos weighed in with a sort of negative tweet. But, you know, I honestly think he`s going to run it and then possibly take it public, again, in a different format, a different form with maybe a different business, maybe not advertising, maybe subscription, maybe a public square, maybe it`s it`ll become a utility, a public utility. Who knows?
RUHLE: I want to share that tweet by Twitter co-founder, Jack Dorsey, where he writes, “In principle, I don`t believe anyone should own or run Twitter. It wants to be a public good at a protocol level, not a company, solving for the problem of it being a company, however. Here`s the thing, though, I do love it when these billionaires talk about let`s just do public good, and no one should own it. Founding Twitter is what made Jack Dorsey the billionaire he is today. So that`s kind of hard for me to stomach.
SWISHER: It might be yesterday. I woke up sucking on a lemon. I don`t know if that`s the Radiohead lyric that he quoted. You know, I don`t know what to say. I know, I honestly this is like, there`s not a wackier group of people than these tech people. And they`re moving around assets in a really unusual way. Elon is on the hook for a lot of money. Let`s just keep that you`re you know, you started in business, Stephanie. And you know what that means? These banks and these loans, and he`s got to — he`s got to make good or I don`t know what I honestly don`t know what actually.
RUHLE: Let`s go to that, though. What — like this thing isn`t a done deal. Jake, talk to us about the hurdles, he still needs to go through, right? We`re months away. People are going, oh, my God, Trump`s going to be on Twitter tomorrow. No, no, no, no, no, no, this thing is not a done deal.
WARD: No, that`s right. It has to go through certainly the regulatory hurdles, but there`s no indication that any one at the federal level is going to get in the way, because he`s not buying a competitor. There`s almost no antitrust issues here. So that`s probably going to go forward. You know, the truth of the matter is, he does have the money, he has at least put up a huge amount of basically his ownership of Tesla as collateral. If Tesla were to somehow tank as a company and the stock were to go down, he`d suddenly have to repay that debt really quick.
But right now, Tesla is doing great. And so he does seem to have the firepower to make this thing happen. But he`s going to run into all kinds of crazy problems. I mean, right that the election is one thing, but think about this. I mean, the — Stephanie, the European Union just passed one of the most sweeping regulatory changes in the history of the internet, the Digital Services Act, which is going to make platforms like Twitter, financially and legally responsible for hate speech. If it goes up on there.
You know, this at a time when this guy is buying this stuff after having talked at the TED conference about wanting to basically open this thing up, make it much more of a free speech platform, he was asked if there`s sort of a something that`s in the gray area. What`s your attitude about that? He says, well, the tweets in the gray area, I should leave it up. You`ve got that guy in suddenly in charge at a time when everybody`s thinking about how these platforms need to be better controlled and moderated. How do we better studied and still he`s going to make it private, you know, there`s no indication that he`s going to go along with any of that. So just as, Kara says, it`s such a weird piece of news. This guy is such a strange person to be taking over something like this. It`s a very, very surreal day for all of us who watch this stuff.
[23:40:00]
RUHLE: What is gray area to the colorblind.
Kara, last question to you, is it a foregone conclusion that Trump`s going to be back on Twitter?
SWISHER: I think if you want it to be, I think Elon was against the band at the time. So I would assume he`s continues to be that way. Trump is over messing around with rumble and some sad little merger over there and they`re trying to like revive Trump`s true social and it`s back and this and that. And he said he wasn`t. I don`t think he can resist. Honestly, again, if he runs, he`s going to be on Twitter. I just don`t see. He just can`t resist he. He just can`t quit it. Like let`s just say it that way.
RUHLE: He just can`t quit it. Kara Swisher, Jake Ward, thank you so much.
When we come back, speaking of the former president, he`s on the campaign trail in Ohio while his former vice president visits the state of Iowa. We`ll ask a former Republican Congressman if there is still a place in the party for those who break for Trump, when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:45:36]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You know what, he`s the guy that said some bad (bleep) about me. He did. He did. But you know what? Every one of the others did also. In fact, if I went by that standard, I don`t think I would have ever endorsed anybody in the country you wanted. They all said bad but they all came back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: They all came back. That is what former President Trump campaigned on while he was with Senate candidate and former Never Trump Republican JD Vance this past weekend in Ohio.
Meanwhile, Trump`s own vice president is still refusing to apologize for not going along with Trump`s plan to illegally subvert the 2020 election on January 6. Mike Pence was in Iowa again this weekend, perhaps leaving his options open as a Trump alternative in 2024.
So let`s discuss, I want to welcome former Florida Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo. He was a member of the Republican conference for about two years during the Trump presidency. He`s also an MSNBC Political Analyst.
Good evening. I want to start with what former Georgia Senator David Perdue now running for governor opened last night`s debate with a proven lie. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FORMER SEN. DAVID PERDUE (R), GEORGIA GOV. CANDIDATE: First off, folks, let me be very clear tonight, the election in 2020 was rigged and stolen. All the madness we see from the Biden administration, 2 million illegals, rising gas prices. Unbelievable inflation, the brink of war. All that started right here in Georgia when our governor caved and allow radical Democrats to steal our election.
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RUHLE: OK, David Perdue is not a dumb man. He knows what he did was tell a lie. But is this the formula? Repeat Trump`s 2020 election lie, get his endorsement and win an election? Is that how this works? And if it is, how`s Pence`s strategy going to work out?
FMR. REP. CARLOS CURBELO, (R) FLORIDA: Well, Steph, good evening, what you saw there is a man who`s desperate, despite having Donald Trump`s support, he is down in the polls. And that`s why he`s willing to lie blatantly on television like that, just to try to win over those Trump supporters who still are not supporting him. And that`s the playbook. And that`s going to be on display this whole primary season in the Republican Party, which Republicans continue subscribing to this lie, trying to survive just hoping to get another opportunity to serve an elected office and which ones embrace the truth to the defense of Mike Pence even though a lot of people disagreed with a lot of the way he conducted himself while he was vice president right at the end, he refused to go along with Trump`s lies. And here two years later, he continues speaking the truth.
We`ll see where that goes. Pence is respected among the Republican Party. He is a true conservative, and he`s also committed to the truth.
Now, you`re right, Stephanie, that may or may not work. That`s what`s going to — the question that`s going to be answered this primary season is, is the Republican party still a fully owned subsidiary of the Trump Organization? Or will it go back to being an entity of its own with people who whether we agree or disagree with them say the truth?
RUHLE: Well, they might want to look out, being a fully owned subsidiary of the Trump Organization, newsflash, it`s gone bankrupt six times.
Let`s go with a different strategy in Utah, former Republican Evan McMullin. He`s now running as an independent against Mike Lee, and he just accepted the endorsement of the state`s Democrats. What do you think of that move?
CURBELO: Well, Evan McMullen has been committed to fighting Donald Trump since 2016. And he has planted his flag in Utah. He did gain some traction in the past, and now he`s trying to build a coalition, not necessarily of people who agree on policy, but on people who agree that politicians should be honest, or at least should be committed to saying the truth.
So we`ll see if this strategy works out for McMullin, you have to give credit to some of these conservatives and Republicans who are trying every possible strategy to defeat Trumpism because they know it`s not only bad for the Republican Party long term. It`s also dangerous for the country. So kudos to McMullin for going out there and trying to build a coalition of Utahns who care about the truth, who understand now that Mike Lee seems to have been intimately involved in the process to try to overturn the January 6 to overturn the 2020 election on January 6, ultimately, he did do the right thing and certify the results. But boy, did our country pay a heavy price for the propagation of that lie?
[23:50:24]
RUHLE: OK, I`m out of time, but I must, must ask because Trump said he would take anyone over Mitch McConnell for a Republican Senate Leader. If Republicans take the Senate. Do you think there`s anyone who can beat McConnell like let`s remember, you might not like Mitch McConnell, he might not be a great guy to hang out with, he is hugely powerful, maniacally strategic, and last I checked, he won his last election and Trump lost.
CURBELO: Steph, Mitch McConnell staying power is extraordinary. Right now, it seems like he`s the only Republican who has confronted Trump on numerous occasions, who has called out Donald Trump lies. I know his record hasn`t been perfect, according to many, but certainly, there`s a few times where he`s been explicit and denouncing Trump. We know he hasn`t spoken to him since before the 2020 election and he still has extraordinary support inside the Senate Republican Conference. My money`s on Mitch McConnell always.
RUHLE: Here`s one strategic beast, Mitch McConnell Carlos Curbelo. Always good to see you. Thanks for joining us tonight.
CURBELO: Good to see you too
RUHLE: When we come back, the best of humanity my takeaway from spending a week in Poland when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:55:50]
RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, the best of humanity. I wasn`t here at the anchor desk last week because my son and I spent his Spring Break volunteering at the Poland Ukraine border. And one of the biggest and clearest takeaways from working with refugees is that this is a war against humanity itself. Mothers and children, senior citizens forced from their homes and their country, to places where they don`t speak the language, where they don`t have any contacts. And they don`t have a plan.
You are going to see a lot more coverage on the plight of these refugees and the devastation of this war in the days and weeks ahead. However, I also want to share that amid this tragedy, I had the privilege of witnessing the absolute best of humanity.
We spent the week working with PAH, Polish Humanitarian Action Group who`s working around the clock at border crossings to help Ukrainians through their resettlement process. We also volunteered with World Central Kitchen, who is preparing an incredible 300,000 meals a day to those impacted by the war.
Volunteers from all around the world, every age, race, demographic, all coming together with one singularly focused mission to help those who need it most. I want to share this guy, Ben Dosing (ph) he`s a lawyer from Kentucky. He`s living in a hostel. He shows up at the border every single day, sometimes in a chicken suit. Other days, you see it right there and a hot pink bunny suit to give kids a comforting treat.
Famed Chef Mark Murphy (ph) seen here on the left, led our kitchen and has been there for seven weeks straight without one single day off. A French volunteer named Fabian (ph) seen here in maroon on the left, he left the group, headed home to France just for the weekend. One reason to vote for Macron, now he`s headed back to Poland.
Alex Dennis Lengow (ph), he was a leader of my group, a Russian born logistics expert. He`s been leading WCK volunteer kitchen, and he`s got no plans to go home anytime soon. Yesterday, he led an orthodox easter egg dyeing project at the Shamis Refugee Center, which currently holds hundreds and hundreds of displaced children. And during my time there with Alex, we shipped out an astounding 14,000 sandwiches.
As my son pointed out that when there`s so much chaos, the only thing you want to do is do your small part. There is no time to think about problems you have at home issues in your personal life, none of that matters. All you can do is focus on how do you get four slices of cheese on that bun as fast as possible. And many of these photos were taken by Robert Claire (ph), a career combat photographer who leaves Poland and he`s now heading to Libya, before returning home to the states.
Each one of these people extraordinary humans, many of them staying in hostels and hotels an hour away from the volunteer site. Because housing is in such short supply that is of course refugee needs. They show up seven days a week 12 hour shifts, many of them canceling their plans to return home.
At the border when we worked with PAH, I met Kubi (ph) a Polish man who left his job in Poland to volunteer at the pedestrian border crossing. That`s where the refugees are in need of the most assistance because they are arriving by foot with only what they carry. Chances are they don`t have the money. They don`t have a place to go. They just need help.
I also gained a new appreciation for the importance of donating things like coats, hats, toys, and books. You`re always reminded to do those things, but sometimes we forget about it when we`re cleaning out our basements or our closets. Well, I can tell you, when a bus comes across the border with a five year old that has been traveling for days, the only thing on earth you want to do is dig through that donation bin and find the perfect stuffed animal or maybe a fire truck. Same goes for winter coat in the right size for an older gentleman who made the trip without one.
For my son who like me, couldn`t speak Ukrainian, couldn`t speak Russian and didn`t have the information or the skills to help people with what they needed most, just the act of blowing bubbles for hours was somehow an injection of joy that we all seem to need.
And to the Polish people, so many opening their homes, offering rides, leaving their own jobs to volunteer on their days off, truly embracing the principle of love thy neighbor, it was astounding to witness.
My point is this, in the face of so much darkness, I want you to know that on the ground, there is also so much light. And while I come home saddened, I am also incredibly inspired. There are so many good people doing great things. And tonight, I want to honor them.
We`re going to talk a lot more about this war in the extremely difficult days ahead. But tonight, I leave you with this message that there is light. And it is being led by service organizations, governments and volunteers like you and me. Putin`s inhumane war is also bringing out the best in humanity.
And on that note, I wish you all a very good night, from all of our colleagues across the networks of NBC News, thanks for staying up late with me. Good to be back. I`ll see at the end of tomorrow.