Updated
Summary
French President Emmanuel Macron emerges triumphant against right- wing candidate Marine Le Pen. Congressman Charlie Crist of Florida discusses his gubernatorial campaign and Governor Ron DeSantis` war against Disney. Billionaire Elon Musk buys Twitter. A dramatic show of support for Ukraine comes as two top Biden officials visit the country. More text messages are revealed in the January 6 investigation.
Transcript
ARI MELBER, MSNBC HOST: Thanks for joining us on THE BEAT WITH ARI MELBER.
“THE REIDOUT WITH JOY REID” starts now.
JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, everyone.
We begin THE REIDOUT tonight in France, where Emmanuel Macron emerged triumphant against right-wing fascist Marine Le Pen. Macron, a centrist who was infuriated many on the left and the right, was able to push back an increasingly normalized extremist party fronted by Le Pen.
His victory was never guaranteed, but, as 8:00 p.m. rolled around, Macron was declared the clear winner with roughly 58 percent of the vote. Le Pen`s loss, despite effectively clawing her way to the top by softening her politics and rebranding her party, was a direct rebuke to the growing ethno-nationalist fascism spreading throughout Europe.
Just take a look at Hungary, where Viktor Orban was resoundingly reelected, after turning the country into a white Christian ethno-state that bans gay marriage is aggressively anti-Muslim immigrants and attacks liberal institutions, the press and controls the judiciary system.
It should come as no surprise that Le Pen has received the backing of not just Russian banks, but of Trump`s most slovenly supporter, Steve Bannon, who is an active opponent of democracy.
With all that said, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, and Le Pen`s loss is a resounding victory for democracy and for the French people, who, despite deep frustrations with the president, chose democracy over extremism.
The same, unfortunately, cannot be said here in America, where the modern Republican Party is taking a page from Orban`s book and leaning hard into authoritarian socialism, where Christian conservatives are waging a full-on jihad against those who disagree with their increasingly and obsessively anti-gay/anti-trans/anti-immigrant/anti-history views.
Look no further than the free state for some of Florida, where Ron DeSantis has waged a hypocritical war on Disney, freaking Disney. Why? Because they dare to push back on his hideous don`t say gay law.
Last week, the state legislature voted to dissolve Disney`s special Reedy Creek District, which allowed them to control zoning and operate their own police and fire departments and kept them from having to operate under rules that other counties must use.
I`m old enough to remember when those same Republicans in 2019 had a heart attack when the San Antonio City Council voted to bar Chick-fil-A from the city airport. The reason? The council opposed what they called Chick-fil- A`s — quote — “legacy of anti-LGBT behavior.”
Republicans cried foul and squealed about the company`s freedom of speech. Flash-forward to 2022, where Florida Republicans are proudly attacking Disney`s freedom of speech and fake punishing them by effectively hiking taxes on hundreds of thousands of Floridians, to the tune of roughly $160 million. That is almost a 25 percent tax hike on the people who live in Disney`s counties.
On top of that, they`re passing $1 billion in Disney bond debt onto every Florida taxpayer to punish Disney for speech. Now, naturally, such a massive tax hike would make you think it is political suicide for DeSantis. But if you dig a little deeper, you realize why they just don`t care. Orange County and Osceola County, which would also be affected, are chockful of Democrats.
Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings told an NBC affiliate that: “If we had to take over the first response and public safety components for Reedy Creek with no new revenue, that would be catastrophic for our budget in Orange County. It would put an undue burden on the rest of the taxpayers in Orange County to fill that gap.”
But, again, why would Florida Republicans care? Political punishment is the point. I mean, the guy who filed this legislative assault on Disney, a state rep named Randy Fine, has also threatened funding for the Special Olympics, the Special Olympics, over an argument with some school board members and because he didn`t get invited to a dinner.
Yes, it is that bad in the former Sunshine State. Representative Charlie Crist, the former Republican governor, now Democrat, slammed DeSantis` tactics, calling him a threat to the state`s economy and a wannabe king.
And if all that doesn`t scare you enough, buckle up, buttercup, because, today, baby MAGA signed a bill that allows him to create his own private police force that is tasked with pursuing alleged election law violations. Just lovely. The big lie will now have its own battalion of goons. I wonder who they will go after first? I think you can guess.
Joining me now, Congressman Charlie Crist of Florida, who is campaigning for governor of Florida again, an office that he previously
Governor — I always going to call you Governor Crist.
(LAUGHTER)
REID: Congressman Crist, thank you so much for being here.
[19:05:01]
I`m tempted, but…
REP. CHARLIE CRIST (D-FL): It`s great to be with you. Thank you so much.
REID: It`s always good to talk to you.
So, just for those who think that I have just — what I just said is hyperbole, I want to quickly play for our audience this same man, Representative Fine, state Representative Fine, in a back-and-forth — or two Republicans it back-and-forth about the bill that punishes Disney.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE REP. CARLOS GUILLERMO SMITH (D-FL): Is this bill not a direct result of Representative Roach saying, if Disney wants to embrace woke ideology, it seems fitting they should be regulated by Orange County? Isn`t that what this bill is?
STATE REP. RANDY FINE (R-FL): When you poke the bear, or you kick the bee`s nest, sometimes, issues come out. And I think that when the bee`s nest got kicked, based on how a guest in our state chose to comport itself, I think what ended up happening is the idea of special districts were taken a look at.
QUESTION: Is there an opportunity for Disney to change their mind and say, we will disregard this whole woke agenda, we will go back to what we originally dealt with, the state of Florida, and would the governor then say, OK, fine, you keep your status, but let`s talk more, we`re going to keep an eye on you now?
What — how does this play out for Disney? A lot of people like Disney and they don`t want to not like Disney anymore.
LT. GOV. JEANETTE NUNEZ (R-FL): Sure. And, of course…
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: That second speaker was the lieutenant governor of Florida saying, yes, sure, if they change their ways, maybe we will change our mind.
And this idea of, you poked the bear, and now we`re going to take a new look at special districts, they didn`t, Governor, did they? Because they only took a look at one special district. There are a lot of others. They didn`t go after Daytona. They didn`t go after NASCAR that has Daytona Beach. They didn`t go after The Villages. Just this one.
Your thoughts?
CRIST: You`re absolutely right, Joy-Ann.
I mean, this is punishment. This is punitive. And it`s intentional. And it`s bullying. I mean, Disney can`t express their right to free speech in the Sunshine State anymore? I mean, this has got to be unconstitutional, number one, under both the United States Constitution and the Florida Constitution. It is outrageous.
And then the notion that the governor is saying, yes, in a press conference where he signed the bill last week, are you doing this to, like, take out punishment upon them, he goes, yes, that`s what we`re doing, and just to brazenly admit it like that.
Usually, you would be maybe a little more subtle, but not this follow. And it`s unbelievable. You`re a Floridian, former Floridian. And people in Florida are good people. They`re decent people. They`re kind people. They deserve better than this. And it`s disappointing, and it`s heartbreaking.
I wear these yellow wristbands every day. And they say, practice the golden rule every day, which simply means do unto others as you would have done unto you.
Well, if Ron DeSantis, our current governor, and I hope soon not, ever learned the golden rule, he`s evidently already forgotten it. And that`s astonishing to me that you have this kind of attitude.
But I think I have figured it out. Joy, I think what`s going on here is that Governor DeSantis is so laser-focused on the 2024 Republican presidential primary, and going against Donald Trump, he is trying to out- Trump Trump and doing these kinds of things.
I mean, he signed into law recently the most anti-abortion bill in Florida history. He`s gone after LGBTQ kids, I mean, African-Americans who want the right to vote openly and freely in the Sunshine State, has been made more difficult by legislation that he has signed, taking away drop boxes in minority communities throughout Florida, also making it more difficult to use mail-in voting.
Fortunately, a federal court already took that down. But they have passed another one this session. So we`re going to have to go to court again to try to stop these things. But it`s one thing after another. It`s almost like he goes to bed every night thinking, what group can I punish tomorrow? Women, African-Americans, LGBTQ, you name it.
REID: Mm-hmm.
CRIST: And now he`s not just gone after Disney in an anti-business fashion.
The Florida Chamber of Commerce ought to back me instead of DeSantis for what`s going on.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: And I`m more pro-business.
But this isn`t the first time. He did it to the Florida cruise industry too.
REID: Right. Yes.
CRIST: Because they wanted to make sure that people that came on the votes didn`t have the virus.
REID: Right.
CRIST: I mean, it`s unbelievable, really.
REID: And, I mean, the thing is that you used to be Republican, and there used to be a pretty solid principle among Republicans that you don`t choose winners and losers, that the government shouldn`t be doing, and they shouldn`t be using the tax code and the power, the raw power of government, to pick winners and losers.
I`m going to put that graphic back up. There are 1,800 special tax district in Florida. This is not a thing that only Disney has.
CRIST: Right.
REID: They went and excised one. And that one is where Universal Studios and Sea World and Disney are.
[19:10:01]
And if you could just explain, as somebody who has had to administer the state as its governor, when you do that, and then you transfer the need to improve those Disney rides and police and do fire services for Disney, that then is the responsibility of Orange County and of Osceola, right?
This is going to literally raise the taxes of every Floridian in those counties, but then of the whole state, because the bond debt is now on the state.
CRIST: Well, the whole hit is going to be about $2 billion. Think about that.
This will be the largest single tax increase in the history of Florida under Governor Ron DeSantis. What happened to less taxes, less government, more freedom from the Republican Party? Apparently, it`s out the window.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: Because it`s all about authoritarianism. This is democracy vs. autocracy.
And I`m in favor of democracy. He tried to tear it down with his anti- democracy legislation as it related to our voting rights.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: I served with John Lewis, a wonderful civil rights leader who used to always tell me and any of my colleagues in Congress who would listen: Charlie, let me tell you something. The right to vote is precious.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: In fact, he said: It`s so precious, it is sacred, something from God.
It gives us our right to freedom, our right to express ourselves, whether you want to protect a woman`s right to choose, LGBTQ children, or Disney`s right to free speech.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: It`s unbelievable what he`s doing. It really is.
REID: And let me — you`re a member of Congress now.
I mean, the other thing that went somewhat under the radar, unfortunately, is that this governor demanded that his sycophant legislature literally eliminate Val Demings` district and Al Lawson, state Senator Al Lawson`s district. It`s very, very particular. It`s the same area.
So, now this part of Orange County will lose its black congresswoman, to be replaced, presumably, by a Republican who he will draw some crazy looking district to force a Republican in there. So he`s taken away black representation. As you said, he`s taken away the ability of African- Americans to vote. And he passed this police force that you know is going to be sicced on black Floridians to intimidate them out of being able to vote.
Do you even recognize Florida at this point, given what they have done, as you said, attacking LGBT kids, teachers, threatening teachers with $10,000 fines and lawsuits just for teaching?
CRIST: Right.
REID: Have you ever — do you even recognize Florida at this point?
CRIST: No, I don`t. I don`t. I don`t recognize it under his leadership.
But I do recognize my Florida. And I know most Floridians are good people, just like you, and just like me, I hope. And the notion is that they deserve better. Real Floridians don`t want this. They don`t want anti- women, anti-gay, anti-African-American, anti-environment, anti-public education leadership.
They want somebody who can bring people together and make Florida rise again. And what he`s doing is depressing our state.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: We`re the Sunshine State. He`s, like, blotting out the sun. It`s unconscionable. It`s not right. It is not sacred, as John Lewis would say.
It is absolutely the wrong thing to do. We deserve better. We`re going to get better. Help me beat him, CharlieCrist.com. And we will make a difference and bring the sunshine back to Florida.
REID: We are out of time, but I have to note that Shevrin Jones, state Representative Shevrin Jones, a friend of the show, did endorse you today.
CRIST: He did.
REID: Are you going to be able to motivate African-American voters, voters of color, teachers, all of these constituencies that are being targeted? Do you have a plan to motivate those folks to actually fight back and vote?
CRIST: Absolutely.
Well, listen, number one, Val Demings is going to be our Senate candidate. So I love her. And she`s going to help us with minority turnout extraordinarily well.
Two of my three sisters, Joy-Ann, were public school teachers in the Sunshine State. My dad was on the school board. I`m a public school kid. I graduated Florida State University. I think you need to be a graduate of a great state university in Florida, instead of where Ron went, Harvard and Yale. We need somebody who knows Florida better than he does. And that`s what I think is going to turn it out.
They — Floridians want somebody who cares about them, who cares about the issues they`re dealing with, like high property taxes, high property insurance.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: But you can`t even buy a home in Florida unless you`re a millionaire or a billionaire.
REID: Yes.
CRIST: And those are the kind of people who are supporting DeSantis.
Regular people are helping us. That`s why we`re going to win. It`s all about people. It`s not about money.
REID: High taxes that are about to shoot way up, Floridians. Pay attention.
Congressman Charlie Crist, who is running again for governor of Florida, and I can attest a very nice guy. So, maybe nice guys finish first. We shall see what happens.
Thank you, sir. We really appreciate you being here.
And coming up next on THE REIDOUT: We have seen the Elon Musk story before, the nation`s wealthiest citizens not content to sit on their fortunes, use it to seek power and to exert control over the public square.
Plus, a dramatic show of support for Ukraine from two top Biden officials, with Defense Secretary Austin saying that Ukraine can, can win this war.
[19:15:08]
And the Mark Meadows text messages, the panic on the right, as their insurrection turned violent, the coordination with right-wing media, and Margie Q. Greene`s chilling and, of course, misspelled reference to martial law, which, just last week, she said she couldn`t recall. Huh.
THE REIDOUT continues after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:20:04]
REID: Let me take you back to America`s Gilded Age in the late 19th century. It was a time of rapid economic growth, but also a period of gross materialism and blatant political corruption.
The wealthy grew even wealthier and looked to wrestle control of every facet of human life. One of the most powerful and corrupt robber baron of the time is sitting there at the table, financier Jay Gould. Gould used every underhanded trick, from bribing public officials to massively manipulating stocks. He had control of the railroad lines and newspapers and, for a time, he single-handedly controlled America`s telegraph wires.
And with those wires, Jay Gould controlled the flow of information in this country.
Fast-forward to today. You could make the case we`re living in a new Gilded Age, where you have people with extraordinary wealth, like Elon Musk, as Axios points out, looking to follow in the footsteps of people like Gould, and they want to control everything, from the courts, to politicians, to the leading forums for information-sharing.
And, today, it became official. Twitter accepted Musk`s $44 billion offer to buy the company and put control of this dominant social media platform into his hands. It is not enough for the richest man in the world to try to replace agencies like NASA and send people to near-space. He also wants to control what he calls the town square.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA MOTORS: Twitter has become kind of the de facto town square. So it`s just really important that people have the — both the reality and the perception that they`re able to speak freely within the bounds of the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Now Elon Musk will own the town square.
With me now, Anand Giridharadas, publisher of The.Ink and author of “Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World.”
So, Anand, my friend, what does it mean for Elon Musk to privately own the town square?
ANAND GIRIDHARADAS, PUBLISHER, THE.INK: It`s such a good analogy.
And I love that setup, except I would make one disanalogy from the period you talked about. Those people 100 years ago did not own portals into a billion people`s minds in real time, right? The nature of the technology is now such that, if you are now Elon Musk, or a Mark Zuckerberg or others, it is not just owning a newspaper or owning the rail — and owning the railroads and owning this and that.
It is specifically this particular kind of straw into the live consciousness of a very large chunk of humanity at all times. There`s studies that have been shown that this power can be used to tilt elections, if someone were to want to use it that way.
And so what you`re seeing right now — and I call it “Winners Take All” for a reason — this is the winners-take-all playbook.
REID: Yes.
GIRIDHARADAS: First, you just try to make money. That`s the kind of foundational, overriding goal. But if you just do that, you`re going to have regulatory pressure. You`re going to have people mad at you after a certain point.
You`re going to have all kinds of problems. And so what you do is, you take the spoils of that moneymaking, and you buy political influence in Washington. You fund super PACs. You fund things like the Federalist Society, different approaches that you know well.
And then you start investing in rigging the discourse. It`s not enough just rig law and policy. You want to rig the discourse. You want to make sure you control the terms on which people can talk back at you.
REID: Right.
GIRIDHARADAS: I`m curious what the safeguards are at Twitter after this acquisition.
Do people get to read the D.M.s of the leading dissidents and journalists and regulators in the world? I have D.M.ed over the years with people who work in governments, people whose — who have critical positions relative to all kinds of authority.
I`m curious, what are the safeguards preventing the world`s richest man? I`m sure there are some. I`d love to hear what they are. But this is truly the winners-take-all world, where not just — as you said, not just one form of power, but every form of power is used to purchase the next, and up to the point where we are fully encircled, and democracy itself is suffocated.
REID: And I would not — I would doubt that there would be very many safeguards.
I mean, Elon Musk calls himself a free speech absolutist. Well, first of all, that`s B.S., because he has a long history of literally threatening to sue bloggers who say things he doesn`t like about him or who post things about Tesla that he doesn`t like. His history is that it`s free speech, sure, but don`t say anything about me I don`t like, because I will sue you.
He also, I think, is showing — I think it`s a tell. And I don`t know if you agree with this. The right has made multiple attempts to remake Twitter. They have had Gettr, which, I`m sorry, it does sound like a porn name. They have had Parler. They have had Gab, which is full of Nazis. They have had all — and it never works, because the thing is, they don`t want to talk to each other. They want to talk to us.
They want to talk to the culture. They want to meet they — if they were where black Twitter was not, they would be sad because they couldn`t attack black people.
[19:25:03]
Elon Musk tweeted today: “I hope that even my worst critics remain on Twitter, because that is what free speech means.”
Charles Blow had already beaten him to the door and said, I`m done. Lots of people were trying to get on CounterSocial today, because CounterSocial is actually moderated And doesn`t allow people to attack people.
Do you see this as a tell that they can`t recreate Twitter, because Twitter without us, without the regular people, isn`t useful or entertaining to them?
GIRIDHARADAS: I think that`s very true.
And I also think this free speech issue needs to be unpacked, because like a lot of issues promoted by people like this, the actual thing they`re saying is not the actual issue.
So, the actual issue, I think, there is a feeling that people like Elon Musk propagate, and is certainly widespread on the fascist right today, that this is a time of censorship and control and suppression of ideas on the right by these social platforms and other institutions.
Well, what`s actually been going on is that there have been modest, pretty inadequate, modest, slight efforts by some of these platforms to solve an actual free speech issue, which is that so many human beings feeling so unsafe, and being so unsafe, when they use these platforms, being bullied, being harassed, being brigaded, being doxxed for the crime of being female, or of color, or both…
REID: Yes.
GIRIDHARADAS: … that you were actually drastically limiting the amount of speech out there, because people just don`t want to play in that kind of sandbox.
And these platforms have understood that, and have made faint, modest efforts to address that by saying, let`s not have as much Nazism on the platform.
REID: Right.
GIRIDHARADAS: Let`s not have as much misogyny and bullying. Let`s still have a lot of it, but less.
Anyone who has ever actually reported a tweet knows that it almost never still is shut down. But they have tried.
REID: Yes.
GIRIDHARADAS: And this is what`s called censorship.
Elon Musk lives in a world in which the only kind of free speech is white men feeling free to say whatever the hell they want. And what he doesn`t understand, what a lot of those folks don`t understand is, speech is actually freer when everybody, everybody not only has the opportunity to have an account, and they`re able to afford a phone to be able to tweet, but can feel safe…
REID: Yes.
GIRIDHARADAS: … can know that they`re not going to get harassed, can know that they`re not going to get outed, can know they`re not going to get piled on by the kind of Astroturfed stans of some very rich man.
And this future in which there would actually be more abundant and equitable speech terrifies the crap out of people like Elon Musk.
REID: Yes. Indeed.
I mean, there was a time when anybody who was Jewish on Twitter, if you expressed views that were anywhere to the left of Donald Trump, you would get the “into the oven” response almost immediately. And these people literally follow you, so that, 10 seconds after you tweet anything, you get the monkey attacks, and you`re the — it`s the constant assault.
And without the ability to assault, they`re not entertained. They`re not entertained.
GIRIDHARADAS: Correct.
REID: And so they want to abuse. And, in their mind, that`s free speech, as you said, because a certain type of person must be able to harass you.
Baby, no, you don`t have the right to harass anybody. People can leave. They can choose to not be in that space anymore. And some people will.
I can tell you, look, if you want to follow me on CounterSocial, I`m at @JoyAnnReid, OK? I`m just going to throw that out there. And I don`t own nothing of it. I`m getting nothing for saying that. I`m just saying there are other places that people can go.
Anand Giridharadas, thank you very much.
Still ahead: Two top U.S. officials travel to Kyiv in a show of solidarity with President Zelenskyy, as Russia`s brutal push into Ukraine`s eastern industrial heartland grinds on.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:40]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In terms of our — their ability to win, the first step in winning is believing that you can win. And so they believe that we can win. We believe that we can win — they can win, if they have the right equipment, the right support.
And we`re going to do everything we can.
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We don`t know how the rest of this war will unfold, but we do know that a sovereign, independent Ukraine will be around a lot longer than Vladimir Putin is on the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Secretary of State Tony Blinken and Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin made a strong show of support for Ukraine, taking a train from Poland to meet with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in Kyiv over the weekend, where they pledged hundreds of millions of dollars in new aid for the country.
Additionally, the White House announced today that President Biden will nominate a new ambassador to Ukraine, a position that has been vacant for three years since Marie Yovanovitch was chased out by the Trump administration.
This comes as Russia continues its assault three full months into their unprovoked and, frankly, terroristic war. They`re targeting critical infrastructure, attacking multiple fuel and railway systems in Central and Western Ukraine. And they continue to bear down on the besieged port city of Mariupol, where the latest — where the last of the Ukrainian resistance in the city, about 2,000 fighters, are holding up in a — are holding on to a Soviet era steel plant.
[19:35:01]
The plant, where 1,000 civilians are also sheltering, has been continually pummeled by Russia. While Russia continues to have claimed to have allowed a humanitarian corridor out of the plant today, Ukraine contradicted that, saying they haven`t actually provided a safe passage for Ukrainian control — into Ukrainian-controlled territory.
Joining me now is former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine William Taylor, who is the vice president of Russia and Europe for the U.S. Institute of Peace.
I would be remiss, sir, if I did not credit you with the idea that you first mentioned on the show that you thought the right people to visit Ukraine, the right person to visit Ukraine was the secretary of defense, Lloyd Austin. He did that, along with Tony Blinken, the secretary of state.
What do you think the significance of that visit was?
WILLIAM TAYLOR, ACTING U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Joy, I think it`s exactly what you said.
It is a demonstration of the strong support of the United States for Ukraine. And this support is not just rhetoric. This support takes the form of weapons is important. This support takes the form of actually people beings there in Kyiv, shaking hands with the president.
This support is now going to be led by an ambassador out there, first time, as you say, in three years, a fully confirmed ambassador.
That said, there`s been a good charge out there, Joy. Let`s be clear. She`s done a fine job. But it`s also good to have a confirmed — a Senate- confirmed ambassador out there. So this trip has demonstrated that strong support. And I`m sure the Ukrainians appreciate it.
REID: And let me play a little bit of what Lloyd Austin said, and this was — seemed really significant — about what we would love to see long term vis-a-vis Russia.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AUSTIN: We want to see Russia weakened to the degree that it can`t do the kinds of things that it has done in invading Ukraine. So it has already lost a lot of military capability and a lot of its troops, quite frankly.
And we want to see them not have the capability to very quickly reproduce that capability.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: If and hopefully when Ukraine wins this war, will one of the mistakes that Russia made having essentially allowed the West to make Ukraine`s military more modern?
TAYLOR: Joy, you`re exactly right.
And let`s be clear. It`s going to be when the Ukrainians win this war. And, just as Secretary Austin said, this has already hammered the Russian military. I understand that the Russian military has used about 70 percent of all its precision-guided weapons. The number of Russian soldiers that have been killed, we`re talking about probably 20,000, according to the Ukrainians.
And others have put the number at a very high level as well. So they have already lost soldiers. They`re using up their equipment. They`re already down. And so Secretary Austin is exactly right.
That said, we want the Ukrainians to win soon. We want the Ukrainians to win and push the Russians out, so that they can regain their sovereignty.
REID: Yes. And what do we do — I would be remiss if I did not ask you, what do you think is the impact and import of Emmanuel Macron being reelected, and particularly defeating a very pro-Putin Marine Le Pen?
TAYLOR: You said it exactly. You said it exactly, Joy.
That is, had the other person won, it would not have been good for the Ukrainians or for Europe, or for France, for that matter. And so Macron has been active. He`s been very supportive of Ukraine. He has recognized his failure, frankly, to get Putin to do anything serious.
And so Macron is the right person for this job right now in France.
REID: Yes, indeed. It`s a good weekend, definitely. We were all watching that French election with bated breath.
Ambassador William Taylor, thank you, sir, very much. Really appreciate it.
Up next: new insights into Republican efforts to overturn the election and the events of January 6 from thousands of texts sent and received by Trump`s former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows.
We will bring you the latest after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:43:38]
REID: There`s a pattern that we often see in the Republican Party.
It`s an illness, really, driven by the urge to end democracy, rather than turn away from Trump, where do-nothing Republican leaders say one thing in private and quite another thing in public.
The latest receipts revealing such behavior obtained by CNN come in the form of 2,300 text messages sent and received by Trump`s Chief of Staff Mark Meadows between Election Day 2020 and President Biden`s inauguration.
The trove of texts range from conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories to reactions to the Capitol attack coming from the usual suspects, Trump`s family, Cabinet members, Republican Party leaders, and elected trolls like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who, on January 17, days before Biden`s inauguration, texted to Meadows — quote — “In our private chat with only members, several are saying the only way to save our republic is for Trump to call for martial law,” with martial spelled like the character Fire Marshal Bill.
Another text exchange showed Sean Hannity of FOX News taking direct orders from Meadows on coverage. On Election Day, Hannity texted Meadows to ask about turnout in North Carolina. Meadows responded: “Stress every vote matters. Get out and vote.”
“Yes, sir,” Hannity replied. “On it. Any place in particular we need a push?”
“Yes sir.”
What was that part again, Sean, about not being told what to say on your program?
[19:45:02]
Now, keep in mind, this is the same Mark Meadows who was told that plans to try to overturn the election using so-called alternate electors were not legally sound and that the events of January 6 could turn violent, this according to a court filing from the House panel investigating the attempted Capitol coup.
Even so, Meadows pushed forward with the rally that led to the march on the Capitol. And so here we are again, the right telling us one thing in public, only to say something entirely different in private texts, conversations and phone calls, only to deny the wrongdoing or, better yet, pivot and dodge, which is exactly what House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy did today when asked about the leaked audio where he is heard saying that he would advise Trump to resign following the mob assault on the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I never told the president to resign. It was a conversation that we had about scenarios going forward.
But that`s not really what is critical, happened 15 months ago. What`s happening is what`s happening on this border right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Ah, yes, when text messages reveal that you plotted a coup, and when audio reveals that you are a liar, deflect against the backdrop of a fake border crisis.
Republicans, we know all your tricks, including how to revive the big lie just in time for the election.
And that is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:51:56]
REID: Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin, who is a member of the committee investigating January 6, had a front-row seat to the violence and mayhem of the January 6 attack.
Remember, he was there as MAGA goons tried to barrel into the chamber. But the moment that he describes as chilling was when former Vice President Mike Pence refused to leave the Capitol as insurrectionists stormed the building.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): He uttered what I think are the six most chilling words of this entire thing I have seen so far. He said, “I`m not getting in that car,” because the Secret Service agents, who presumably are reporting to Trump`s Secret Service agents, were trying to spirit him off of the campus.
And he said: “I`m not getting in that car until we count the Electoral College votes.”
He knew exactly what this inside coup they had planned for was going to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REID: Joining me now is Christina Greer, associate professor of political science at Fordham University, and Joyce Vance, University of Alabama law professor and a former U.S. attorney.
And, Joyce, I want to go to you first, because that is chilling. And even when I first heard the story, when you heard that Mike Pence literally looked at those Secret Service agents, and said, “I`m not getting into the car,” his one — there was one Secret Service agent that he trusted.
The rest of them, he`s like, I`m not getting in the car with these people.
The more that you hear about the context of that, the more chilling it is. What does it say to you?
JOYCE VANCE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: You know, the basic Secret Service protocol is to get one of their protectees out of a theater that`s dangerous if something is going on.
So when you have gotten armed — or, rather, a violent insurrection at the Capitol, the Secret Service instinct is going to be to take their protectees and get them out of danger`s path.
I think what we`re entitled to here, though, quite honestly, Joy, is an explanation from Mike Pence of what he thought when he said those words. And it should be public. It should be in hearings that the January 6 Committee conducts. I know we have seen the reporting that he doesn`t believe that he should testify and shouldn`t have to.
But I`m reminded that a certain former secretary of state spent 11 hours testifying to the Benghazi Committee.
REID: That`s right.
VANCE: I think Mike Pence can tell us the truth about what happened, what he knew, and what he meant when he uttered those words.
REID: Right, because, Christina Greer, there are two ways to play that scene.
Way one is that Mike Pence is being valiant and saying, I`m not going to abandon the Capitol while this count is going on. I want to say there to do my job. The other one is, oh, I know what they`re going to do. I know that their plan is to get me out of the way and have Chuck Grassley sit in my seat, because Chuck Grassley is going to throw the election to Trump, that, somehow, there`s knowledge that he understands what the plot is, right?
Those are the two ways to look at it.
CHRISTINA GREER, FORDHAM UNIVERSITY: Absolutely.
And, Joy, keep in mind, Mike Pence was very dutiful to President Trump for four years. So he knows the extent to which President Trump began to unravel, especially after he lost to Joe Biden. He knew that he was definitely not willing to step down.
And don`t forget, on January 6, so many of those protesters, insurrectionists and traitors to our nation, were calling on hanging Mike Pence.
REID: Yes.
GREER: And so he could not trust that the president would stick up for him or protect him.
I agree with everything that Joyce says. I think the only thing where I would slightly disagree with Joyce is that we can`t trust Mike Pence to tell the truth. He carried Donald Trump`s water for four years. So, ideally, it would be great if we had a vice president who would get on the stand and explain what his thought process was.
But we saw Mike Pence lie consistently to go in lockstep with Donald Trump time and time again. So I don`t think that we can expect any honesty out of anyone from that administration anytime soon.
REID: It is interesting that you — he was the victim of — just like everyone else — there was a noose brought to hang him. And yet he seems, for whatever reason, refusing to say anything.
He can`t possibly think he has a future in Republican politics, but he`s mum. And it is questionable why.
Here`s another item. This is from “The New York Times,” Joyce. There`s a filing that has new details about what the White House was planning for on January 6 and what folks knew.
Testimony disclosed by the House committee investigating the attack showed that Mark Meadows, the chief of staff, and former Congress members discussed directing marchers to the Capitol as Congress certified the election.
[19:55:08]
You and I talk about this all the time, that we`re starting to put the pieces together. If the White House is saying, we want marchers to go to the Capitol, if Marjorie Taylor Greene, who somehow couldn`t remember it when she was doing her testimony, was literally tweeting, declare martial law, it`s starting to seem like every single Republican knew what the plan was.
VANCE: You know, this is the bright constitutional line that we`re going to have to confront.
And I think the point for that is now, because, as Americans, we have First Amendment rights, not just for speech, but for assembly. We have the right to assemble and peacefully protest. And you can walk across that line into insurrection. And the central question here is, what was the plan? Who was involved in planning? Did it involve an articulate plan to interfere with certification of the Electoral College count to interfere with the transfer of power?
Because, if so, there`s a point at which it`s highly likely that it crosses over that First Amendment divide into criminal conduct. Even if it doesn`t get that far — we don`t know what all of the evidence is out there. I think we all have our suspicions about where that evidence lands.
Even if it`s not technically criminal conduct ,there`s this secondary political question. Do we, as Americans, believe that people who would engage in this sort of conduct belong in elected office, belong on Capitol Hill? And the answer to that has to be a resounding no. That`s why the work that the January 6 Committee is doing to expose the truth is so important.
REID: Oh, and do they belong in governor`s mansions?
Let`s play David Perdue. David Perdue this weekend — I won`t play him. I`m just going to read it.
David Perdue, now, he`s Trump`s choice to be governor of Georgia. He`s going after Brian Kemp, who Trump hates. He said on Sunday that, definitively, in his view, the election was stolen, period, point blank, period, Christina, which means that he`s essentially saying that, if he`s governor in 2024, he will make sure that the election is thrown in the right direction.
That is the problem we have now, is that you have politicians who are pledging to implement the big like next time.
GREER: Absolutely.
I mean, and, as Joyce said, there is this line that so many elected officials are so willing to cross. I mean, Joy, what`s really frightening, though, is that Perdue has a real strong chance of winning this primary. Not only does he have the money. He has the support of Donald Trump, who is making the case to fellow Georgians that Brian Kemp did not protect them against the election, he did not protect them, when now they have a black and a Jewish senator under Brian Kemp`s watch.
That`s undergirding so much of the ire that Brian Kemp is experiencing and what`s helping Perdue in this particular race. I think we also have to look at not just the Marjorie Taylor Greenes, but the Josh Hawleys sort of physically supporting the protesters with his raised fist.
We have so many Republicans who just do not care about the will of law or the Constitution. And so I am concerned about November 2022. And I`m definitely concerned about November 2024, when we have so many Republican electeds who are willing to still pledge their loyalty to Donald Trump, or, if Donald Trump chooses not to run, someone who is a Donald Trump 2.0.
REID: I mean, that is the big risk.
GREER: And I`m thinking about the governor of Florida.
REID: Indeed, and you should be, because that`s his plan, right?
I mean, the challenge here we have, Joyce, is that you have multiple, scores of Republicans who are running essentially promising that they will never let another Democrat become president, that they will do whatever it takes, they will twist any law. They`re already pledging to do that.
Now, they might just be saying that. It might be B.S. that they`re saying to get people to vote for them in a primary, or they might actually do it.
But let`s go to one other thing. I`m going to let you comment on this. You do now have Donald Trump in contempt in New York. The judge has held — held him in contempt over documents that he`s refusing to turn over. He was ordered to turn over materials that Letitia James is seeking, the attorney general. He`s going to be fined $10,000 a day until he does.
So do you think that gets enforced? And is there any other penalty if he refuses still to turn over documents?
VANCE: Well, look, Letitia James is an incredibly serious person. She`s made that very clear throughout this investigation.
This is a civil contempt, not a criminal contempt.
REID: Right.
VANCE: That`s why it`s a monetary fine.
And she could actually have asked the judge to impose more serious sanctions. You can be jailed for a civil contempt until you cure the contempt by complying with court orders. She didn`t go there.
I would look for her to vigorously make the effort to enforce this. And even if there`s the sort of situation here where Trump tries to avoid paying the fine — really, it would be in his best interests just to pay the fine every day and let it go away.
REID: Yes.
VANCE: She would keep it on the front page every day, that he is holding himself above the law, that he`s trying to avoid her inquiry into his corporate taxes.
She will be, I suspect, vigorous in pursuing this.
REID: You know, if he pays, you know who is going to pay it, right?
He`s just going to sell a bunch of MAGA hats and get his marks to pay for it. He`s just going to make his followers give him money. And he`s going to use their money. He`s not going to use his own money.
Christina Greer, Joyce Vance, thank you both very much.
That is tonight`s REIDOUT.
“ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES” starts now.