Updated
Summary
Russia launches new strikes in and around Kyiv. Senior Pentagon official says, Russian warship was hit by two Ukrainian Neptune missiles. Zelenskyy says, Russia may resort to nuclear weapons. NBC reports, Moscow warns U.S. of unpredictable consequences if it ships more weapons to Ukraine.
Transcript
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: We`re out of time. See you Monday, THE 11TH HOUR with Stephanie Ruhle starts now.
STEPHANIE RUHLE, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, Moscow fires back after the U.S. confirms it was Ukraine who sank Russia`s battleship in the Black Sea. New attacks on Kyiv from Putin`s military and new fears about nuclear weapons.
Plus, explosive new reporting about how far two GOP lawmakers were willing to go to try to overturn the election. A member of the January 6th committee is standing by.
And COVID is not done with us yet. Bestselling Author Michael Lewis on whether we will need a brand-new pandemic playbook as the 11TH HOUR gets underway on this Friday night.
Good evening once again, I`m Stephanie Ruhle.
As Ukraine enters day 52 of its war against Russia, Moscow is launching new strikes on Kyiv and other cities across the country and is promising now to increase attacks on the capital. This may be retaliation for the sinking of a key Russian warship, which U.S. officials have confirmed was indeed hit with two Ukrainian missiles.
There are also new reports of potential war crimes. Police in the area around Kyiv see the bodies of more than 900 civilians have been discovered, most of them fatally shot, executed. President Zelenskyy now asking the U.S. to declare Russia a state sponsor of terrorism.
And as the fighting intensifies, the Ukrainian leaders said the world needs to prepare for Putin to resort to nuclear weapons.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: And not only me, I think with all of the world, all of the countries have to be worried. They can, for them, life of people is nothing, that is why.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: This week, President Biden signed off on that $800 million military aid package. Today, a White House official has confirmed that Moscow has warned the U.S. to stop giving Ukraine weapons or face, quote, unpredictable consequences.
For more on the situation near Kyiv, we welcome back our friend, Igor Novikov. He`s a former Adviser to Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. Igor, good to see you again.
I cannot imagine how it felt to learn that the bodies of more than 900 civilians have been discovered very close to your home.
IGOR NOVIKOV, FORMER ADVISOR TO UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: Well, unfortunately, I have to say, it`s just the tip of the iceberg. I have been saying all along that we are grossly underestimating the death toll of this war. I think, at the moment, if we count the military casualties, I think it is somewhere close to 50,000 people. And I think that`s an underestimation as well. So, that is the reality of this brutal war, and from what I`m seeing and hearing, I think it`s only going to get worse.
RUHLE: After they crushed Bucha, Russian forces basically left Kyiv, or so we thought. But now you are getting airstrikes again. What do you think the Russian strategy is? Are you again on high alert that they`re coming back for Kyiv?
NOVIKOV: Well, Kyiv for them is very symbolic. I mean, they were never able to achieve to take Kyiv or let alone hold it. So, I think, you know, striking Kyiv for them carries that symbolism that they have the upper hand in this war. There is no strategic reason to actually carry out these airstrikes. So, I think those airstrikes are going to continue as well. Putin is very unhappy about his missile cruiser that went down two days ago.
So, I think we are going to see some more airstrikes. There haven`t been any in Kyiv tonight. There were, as far as I remember, three last night. And from what I heard, because I`m away for five days, five more days. My mother who is actually living in my house now is my eyes and ears on the ground. And the way she described it last night was it was probably one of the worst explosions she has heard throughout this war, so not the worst but one of the worst.
RUHLE: Do you feel like you need to get your mother out or your family out? Until now, you have basically been holding tight in Kyiv. But when the president is now warning that Putin could use nuclear weapons, does that make you want change your plans?
NOVIKOV: Well, I was actually worried about nuclear weapons three days since into this war. Because, you know, the entire world, I think Putin included, expected us to go down in two to three days.
[23:05:04]
But, you know, Ukraine actually pushed back and is winning in a major way. So, I think that threat existed for a long time and is only getting worse now.
In terms of staying Kyiv or outside Kyiv, look, with Putin in this world, with the way he`s behaving, I don`t think anywhere is safe. There aren`t any safe havens when you have an authoritarian dictator with nuclear weapons threatening to use them against the free world.
So, you know, I am currently out of Ukraine for one particular reason. That reason is that apart from the military side of things, there is also an economic war that`s happening against Ukraine. And there are a lot of things we need to do to make sure that our economy stays afloat and our businesses can continue to operating. But, no, I plan on going back.
And as far as Ukrainian women are concerned, here is a personal story. And when I was kind of leaving, I said to my family, guys, you want to come with me? You should come with me, you must come with me. I even kind of try to remember that your Disney trip. They agreed but on one condition that they`re coming back with me.
So, I do not want them to return to Ukraine in the next few weeks, but, unfortunately, we are an equal society and there`s (INAUDIBLE). In a democratic vote I think I`m losing this one.
RUHLE: Especially if those members of your family are strong woman, which I`m sure they are.
You mentioned keeping the Ukrainian economy intact. How can you do that? I mean, millions of Ukrainians have been forced to flee, so they can`t possibly be keeping their businesses running and employed.
NOVIKOV: Look, the Second World War was won by the allies thanks to a certain program called land lease. I think we need to launch a land lease for businesses in Ukraine at the moment. That is one thing.
Secondly, I think any socially responsible business in the west should consider introducing new temporary position of a chief Ukrainian officer at the moment. So, I think businesses need to cooperate and collaborate with Ukrainian partners and counterparts, especially given the fact the Ukrainian brand, you know, that brand Ukraine is one of the hottest brands in the world right now. So, it is a non-zero sum game. I mean, there is extra value to be created.
And last but not least, I think we need to forget the way we used to do things and kind of unleash our creativity on this. So, as I have said before, we need to buildup, we need a (INAUDIBLE), we need anything we can come up with. These are like the start-ups of the 21st century, the country, fighting a major war for the entire free world. And, you know, we need to get that entrepreneurial kind of spirit behinds in keeping us afoot.
RUHLE: For the entrepreneurial spirit behind brand Ukraine, I got time for that. Igor, always good to see you, glad that you are safe, best to your family. Thanks for joining us.
I want to dig deeper and bring in our experts this evening. Michael McFaul, former U.S. Ambassador to Russia and MSNBC International Affairs Analyst. His book, titled From Cold War to Hot Peace, An American Ambassador in Putin`s Russia. And Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for The New York Times, who spent years as the Moscow Bureau Chief for the Washington Post.
Ambassador McFaul, President Zelenskyy told The Atlantic, if the Russians are not expelled from Ukraine`s eastern provinces, they can return to the center of Ukraine and even to Kyiv. It is possible. Now is not yet the time a victory. What are you hearing from your friends in Ukraine about Russia`s expected offensive?
MICHAEL MCFAUL, MSNBC INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Exactly that, that they are preparing for the battle of Donbas. They think it will be the central battle and the critical battle in this war. They feel very good that they won the battle of Kyiv. And I think that will go down historically as one of the biggest battles in the history of Ukrainian sovereignty, in the history of the Ukrainian nation.
But it won`t mean much if they don`t win the battle of Donbas. Because if they do not stop the Russian forces there, exactly what President Zelenskyy says, they think that they will continue to move up from the south towards Kyiv again. So, everything is at stake in this battle yet to come.
RUHLE: In this battle yet to come cannot be won without serious support from western allies. I know you talked to the Biden administration, and what are they telling you about this next phase? How do they see it, Ambassador?
MCFAUL: I talk to both administrations. I talk to President Zelenskyy on Tuesday. And what you get, the sense you get talking to both, our Pentagon officials on him, on Tuesday, it`s just a different sense of time, right?
[23:10:05]
So, I applaud what the Biden ministration does. Their latest package of 800 million, 800 billion — 800 million, excuse me, is incredible. It is new stuff. The long range artillery, I think is really important. That is something Ukrainians have been asking for a long time and haven`t received.
But for Zelenskyy and for his chief of staff and for those people living in the bunker, they want all that stuff yesterday. The S-300 that came from Slovakia, that is fantastic. But they have been talking about that for three weeks. Why did it take so long to come?
So, it is just a sense of time. They want everything right away. I think the Biden administration is doing the best they can. And Presidents Zelenskyy wants them to do more and to do it faster.
RUHLE: Mr. Baker, every once in a while, we see a clever posting on Twitter, and we saw one tonight, courtesy of Tom Nichols, where he asked, if the Russian warship sank in a storm after an accident, why is Russia vowing to attack Kyiv in retaliation? The Kremlin seems to be having trouble keeping their propaganda straight. It is a good question.
PETER BAKER, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes. I know, exactly, I did not do it, if I did it, it was justified, is the old excuses. Look, you know, right, the Russians, have of course, never going to admit when they have suffered a setback of the sort that they have suffered here.
Losing the Moskva is a big deal, maybe not strategically but certainly symbolically. It is an embarrassment to a world power that aspires to re- established itself on the globe as a superpower. It is a reminder of some for the Russian-Japanese war back in 1905 where the great fleet sail around the world take on the Japanese, It was sunk there at Port Arthur. It was an embarrassment and it lasted basically for generations for Russians. This is some a repeat of that.
And it tells a story about a determined Ukrainian opposition that is not going to go down easily there. They are not simply going to roll over there. They are going to do everything they can, even to the point of taking down this Russian battleship.
I think that for Putin, it is a reminder that nothing has gone the way he thought it was going to go. He thought they would take over quickly. He thought they would be in Kyiv within days. He thought that they would drive a wedge in NATO. The exact opposite has happened. They have been driven out of the central part of Ukraine, NATO is more unified than ever, even the Finns and Swiss. Stalin could not get them to join NATO. Khrushchev couldn`t get them to join NATO. Brezhnev couldn`t get them to join NATO, but Putin looks like he will. That a complete miscalculation on the part of Vladimir Putin on an epic proportion.
RUHLE: And so what is Putin doing? He`s hiding the news. Peter, you posted earlier today that the Russian government is not blocking the independent Moscow Times Russian Service because of its war coverage. How significant is that move?
BAKER: Well, you know, this a small bit of a larger story, right? The larger story is they have done everything they can to shut down what remained of independent media in an already autocratic society. And that does not mean that Russians can`t get the news if they want to using VPN or finding other ways to get out. But for the vast majority of Russians who aren`t going to that trouble to find a news, what it means is that, broadly, they are subjected to the propaganda of the Kremlin.
The Kremlin isn`t telling about the Moskva. And if they are, they`re giving a song and dance about how it was just an accident. The Kremlin is not telling them about the devastation of the people of Ukraine, who are considered to be fraternal brothers and sisters of the Russian people. The Kremlin is not telling them about all the setbacks and how they have been completely shut up for the world because they do control the levers and apparatus of information.
That does not mean that Russians aren`t getting it. Remember, when you have body bags coming home, that overrides propaganda. When you see sons and daughters being buried because they have died in a war that people don`t understand why they are waging, that has an impact that is hard even for Kremlin to control.
RUHLE: Ambassador, I know you are paying attention to that, specifically military mothers in Russia. The Washington Post is reporting that Ukrainians are using facial recognition software on dead or captured Russian soldiers and they`re contacting their families. Do you think that could help swing public opinion against Putin, or at least get more information, as Peter is pointing out, true information, to those families wondering where their sons and daughters are?
MCFAUL: Well, first, it is an indication that Putin is losing the war that he`s blocking the news. I think that is another thing to remember. Peter, I think you are an embedded journalist way back in the day when we wanted the American people to know about our armed forces and what they`re doing. They`re doing the exact opposite because they do not know wanted to know about losses. I think that is very important to understand.
Stephanie, it is a really hard question. My prediction is not right now but in the long-term, that right now, people are scared, people are even afraid to get news.
[23:15:01]
The hard-core opposition people, like Peter talked about, using VPNs, the news is there, but a lot of people just don`t want to hear it, they don`t want to talk about it. I have students here at Stanford who their parents won`t even talk to them about the war, Russia students, because of this tension. It`s things they can`t talk about.
But over time, the answer is yes. If the war drags on, more news travel informally among families that their sons are being killed in Ukraine, it will begin to erode Putin`s support for this war. But that will be overtime, not immediately.
RUHLE: Overtime, and in the immediate, people are dying. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us on this Friday evening, Ambassador Michael McFaul and Peter Baker.
Coming up, with evidence in the January 6th investigation growing by the day, we will ask a member of the House committee what could be coming next.
And later, anger is growing in China over COVID restrictions. While here at home, distrust is on the rise. In the institutions that are meant to help. We will hear from bestselling Author, Michael Lewis, who predicted this.
The 11TH HOUR just getting underway on this Friday night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:20:00]
RUHLE: Tonight, the truth is coming out. New text messages obtained by CNN reveal just how involved Republican Senator Mike Lee and Congressman Chip Roy were in the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. NBC News has not reviewed the text messages, which are said to span from just after the election until days before the insurrection.
On November 7th, Senator Lee texted Mark Meadows offering, quote, unequivocal support for Trump to exhaust every legal and constitutional remedy at his disposal.
That very same day, Congressman Roy texted Meadows saying, we need ammo. We need fraud examples. We needed this weekend. Then on December 16th, there is a text from Mike Lee that says, quote, if you want senators to object, we need to hear from you on that, ideally getting some guidance on what arguments to raise.
But then, both lawmakers appear to have had a change of heart. On January 1st, 2021, Congressman Roy texted, if POTUS allows this to occur, we are driving a stake in the heart of the federal republic.
Earlier today he responded, saying no apologies for my private text or my public positions. And the spokesperson for Mike Lee tells The Times, his text offer, quote, the same story Senator Lee told from the floor of the Senate on the day he voted to certify the results.
So let`s dig in. We are pleased to welcome this evening, Democratic Congresswoman from the state of California, Zoe Lofgren, a member of the January 6th committee. Thank you for joining us tonight.
How important are these text conversations to your investigation?
REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): Well, let me just say, we have a very large amount of material, about 100,000 documents, many of them text messages from various people. We talked to more than 850 witnesses and it is ongoing. There are multiple depositions and interviews going every day. So, I think, you know, we can piece things together.
But I`ll just note this. Although Senator Lee and Congressman Roy, in the end, voted to certify, they were certainly at some point advocating extraordinary efforts.
And I think it is worth thinking about what the Constitution really provides. It says every state — the legislature — shall appoint electors, choose how the electors will be selected. Every state has done that. They chose an election. And if a state decided that the legislature wanted to appoint electors, it is not clear they can do that. We don`t look at the Article 4 that often but Article 4 guarantees to each state a republican form of government.
Part of our whole system of government rests on the wishes of the voters selecting those — either the Congress or the president. And what was being pursued here, you know, they were trying to get Sidney Powell in, was to overturn what the voters had done, extraordinary and very dangerous.
And the last text that Mr. Roy sent, saying it would be the end of our constitutional republic, that would be correct. Congress doesn`t choose the president. The American voters choose the president.
RUHLE: But let`s say we look at these texts and we agree that they are terrible, that this conduct from these two men does not fit the offices they hold. Here is the issue. So what? They don`t actually care what you or I think. They don`t care what the committee thinks. The only thing that changes the game is that these two gentlemen broke the law, violated some rule and they are forced to step down or face consequences. By your estimation, have any laws been broken?
LOFGREN: Well, I am not going to reach the conclusion you have just stated here. But we are doing a complete review of the activities of a variety of people.
[23:25:06]
Obviously, you know, from what has been publicly reported, there was a plot that preceded the violence on January 6th. It wasn`t just you know randomly people showed up and decided to attack the police officers and try and disrupt the proceedings. There was a plan and a plot and many people were involved. I think it is a mistake. I don`t know how these messages get leaked. But I think it is a mistake to just focus on the dribs and drabs that emerge onto the public arena.
We will have very substantial hearings in the very near future, laying out, as well as we can, in this detailed a fashion as we can, the evidence about what happened. And we hope that that will be definitive and help people renew their passion for the American democracy.
RUHLE: Your colleague on the committee, Jamie Raskin, said, we should be prepared to possibly learn about new crimes. Can you elaborate on that? I am not sure what he meant.
LOFGREN: Well, I`m not sure what he meant either, so I cannot comment on it. But I will say that the plot that preceded the January 6th attack started well in advance and it was very broad and really is pretty chilling.
RUHLE: I look forward to learning more at those hearings. Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren, thank you so much for joining us this evening.
Now, I would like to welcome back to the program Luke Broadwater, Congressional Reporter for The New York Times.
Luke, first, I want to get your reaction to what you just heard from the Congresswoman.
LUKE BROADWATER, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Sure. Well, obviously, she and the committee are taking these text messages in context, that this is one piece of the overall puzzle, as they`re putting together their case of what happened on January 6th. And it does sound like from what Congressman Raskin said, that they may have more evidence that they have yet to reveal to the public. So, you know, we are all looking forward to seeing exactly what that is.
And as reporter, we are always interested in getting as much information out as possible. And so, sometimes that happened through leaks, sometimes that is through on the record statements, but in the case with these latest text messages, these were through leaks and the same with the testament from Stephen Miller yesterday.
So, we are hearing more and more come out of the committee but it would be very interesting to me personally, and I think all of us who were there at the Capitol on January 6th, to see these reports and these public hearings from the committee gets ready to roll them out.
RUHLE: You almost see the learning curve in the text messages, right? On November 7th, Mike Lee is texting Meadows trying to get Sidney Powell in to see Trump. Later on, he fully backtracks, because he, like the rest of us, watched her completely off-the-wall wacky press conferences. So, you watch sort of this arc of learning, at least for these two Republicans who, in the end were like, okay, we are going to certify this thing and get out of crazy town
Are we going to see the same type of track for other Republicans?
BROADWATER: Yes, it is interesting, because you know more than half of congressional Republicans vote to object to the election. So, if Mike Lee and Chip Roy ultimately stand on the side of the voters on January 6th. They side with the actual results of the election. But it took them a while to get there.
Mike Lee tries three different attempts. First, he wants Sidney Powell in there. Then he cannot believe the false and defamatory thing she is saying. Then he wants John Eastman to have a crack at overturning the election. And then he wants the fake elector plot or the alternative electors to perhaps be put forward. And when those don`t materialize, only then does he say, well, I cannot go forward with this and we have got to back off this.
And Chip Roy does a similar thing. He goes and investigates alleged election fraud down in Georgia. And when no election fraud materializes, he says, guys, we have got to call this whole thing off.
But there were so many people who, despite that lack of evidence, decided to go ahead with it anyway. 147 Republicans in Congress voted to object to Joe Biden`s victory. I mean, that was a majority of the House of Representatives.
RUHLE: Well, you say that these texts offer sort of a window into Republican beliefs of these false claims of voter fraud. Are we going to see a lot more of that when we learn, when we get more texts messages in the coming weeks and months that a whole host of Republicans without knowing any hard-core informational or evidence bought into this idea?
[23:30:00]
BROADWATER: Yes, I think we will, definitely. I mean, we know that Mark Meadows turned over more than 2,000 text messages. And we have seen only a sample of those so far through different leaks. And we know that the committee has many, many more documents and evidence than what has been released so far.
I mean, Alex Jones, when he went in for his deposition, he said he was shocked to see that the committee already had his messages, that he didn`t have to turn them over to him.
So, they`ve put out a lot of subpoenas for text messages, for phone records, for even bank records. So, they are sitting on a trove of material that has not been public yet. And I`m fascinated to see it.
RUHLE: And Mark Meadows, as we have learned this week, he knows a bit about voter fraud himself. Luke Broadwater, thank you for joining us this evening, I appreciate it.
Coming up with COVID threatening to make a comeback, we will take a closer look at the trust issues surrounding the agencies that are supposed to be keeping us safe. Bestselling Author Michael Lewis predicted this would happen and here we are. He joins us when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[23:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: With residents who were ordered to surrender their homes, so they could be turned into COVID isolation site.
One woman on the ground shouting, I beg you please, others being dragged away. The video went viral on social media here before being pulled down by censors.
With the lockdown in its third week, most of Shanghai`s 25 million people remained confined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: And pandemic precautions are making a comeback in some parts of the United States as well with cases back on the rise after a two-month decline. But it is still business as usual for much of the country. So, let`s discuss.
Joining us now, Journalist and Bestselling Author, Michael Lewis, he wrote a book on the early days of the pandemic titled, The Premonition, A Pandemic Story. And a third season of his podcast, Against the Rules, is out now.
Michael, here you are, again, with another brilliant book. For The Premonition, you followed those who are raising the alarm about COVID-19 in the early days and how frustrated they were with inaction from our government. Is the root of our problem that we got a political response to COVID rather than a public health one?
MICHAEL LEWIS, AUTHOR, THE PREMONITION: Yes. It is part of the root of the problem. But the route runs very deep. I mean the CDC was politicized back in the 1980`s under the Reagan administration when they turned the guy who is running the place into a presidential appointee from a career of civil servant.
And from that, I think, flows a lot of what we have now. I mean, it reached — the politicization of the place reached the kind of peak during the Trump administration. But the answer is, yes, that rather than this passionate sort of objective, scientific expert based response, we got a kind of bizarre argument. And as a result, we got — we had just a horrific outcome.
I mean it is something that I don`t think we completely grappled with. You know that when you get 4 percent of the world`s population and 20 percent of the world`s deaths, something is wrong. And I don`t think people really kind of grappled with what was wrong.
It wasn`t just that the White House didn`t know what I what they`re doing, that was part of it, but part of it is that these risk kind of management mechanisms that we have at the federal government have ossified and they have not been tended to for a very long time. And they really aren`t up to managing the problem when it happens.
RUHLE: So, what do we do with this? Now, we are losing our faith and our connections in our agencies, our institutions, our government. What is filling the vacuum? How do we address this?
LEWIS: Well, you know, first thing is there is some sort of — there`s an intelligent postmortem that needs to be done. Like I don`t think — well, so I`m all for like an independent, 9/11-style commission, to go and — among other things, ask a question like who did well and who did badly? Why is the death rate in the Miami area three or four times the death rate in the San Francisco area? Why are the red counties in California that did not comply with a lot of the mandates, why are their death rates two or three times where they are in the blue counties?
I mean, I don`t know the answer but I suspect with the answers is that intelligent sort of public health really had a very big effect. And there is this counterfactual in this country that if we had followed public health advice a little more closely and had been cohesive about it, hundreds of thousands of people would be alive today.
On the other side of it, if you listen to the supposed sort of experts, like Ron DeSantis has wheels out when he says nobody needs to wear a mask, you would have had twice as many deaths.
[23:40:12]
But this is something that — these are sort of analyses that need to be done in order to move forward, like what worked, what didn`t, what should we do with this happens again, because this is unlikely to be like an isolated incident. It comes on the heels of lots of examples of pathogens jumping from animals into people. The bottom of it all is a kind of broken relationship put nature that we have. But some version is going to happen again.
So, what do you do? You start with some trusted source. And you`ve got to build the trusted source. And this has got to be bipartisan and it`s got to be kind of independent to sort to take stock of what actually happened.
RUHLE: Well, that is a problem because mistrust and misinformation are running rampant across the country and the world, for that matter.
I want to change gears, because you have spent decades studying and writing about power, influence and greed. I have got to get your take on this Elon Musk/Twitter possible takeover battle. What do you think of it?
LEWIS: I am wholly unsuited to have an opinion about this. —
RUHLE: That is 100 percent false. You are absolutely suited to do this.
LEWIS: So, you know, Twitter, it is amazing how cheap Twitter is for how important it has become. Its influence is so much greater than the $43 billion or whatever it would cost. You know, is Elon Musk owning it as a private company going to make it more trusted than it is now, a better referee of public discussion, I kind of doubt it. I certainly doubt that the perception is going to be any better.
You know what I also doubt, I kind of doubt he actually wants to own it. Like it is — talk about a headache, I think it is all just getting our attention. That`s what this is about. He is in the attention economy and that he doesn`t actually want to own it, but he wants us talking about maybe he`ll own it. That is it.
So I don`t spend one time thinking about it, because I don`t think he`s going to own it, because all he wants is to own, because who would? I mean, what a nightmare.
RUHLE: Okay fair. Before I go, I want to ask you this. You wrote Liar`s Poker 30 years ago, and you have been writing about extraordinary American stories since then. Tell me, what do you think about the state of the world right now and where we are going?
LEWIS: It`s terrifying. We have got a lunatic with his finger on the button that just started a war. And he is getting back into a corner and distracting us from existential problems we hadn`t really been facing.
So, what do I think? I think that our country just had an amazing reckoning, at a moment where you would have thought 1 million Americans died in the pandemic. If you would have thought that would be enough to bring us together, it did not bring us together, divided us there further.
So, I am kind of looking at the world and thinking like what does it take to bring us together, it`s going to have to be something even worse. So, I`m nervous about where the world is right now. It seems volatile and even less predictable.
On the other hand, I got a book idea I am really excited about and I am happily scribbling away. And I loved writing the last book. So, I can`t complain. I am obviously — I`m hopeful enough to sit down and write a book. So, but it`s just — I mean Vladimir Putin scares me. He is scared me for a long time, but he scares me now a lot. And I just don`t know where this goes, and nobody does, right?
RUHLE: Well, Michael Lewis —
LEWIS: So, how do you feel about the world?
RUHLE: Scared, scared, scared, scared, but lucky to be speaking to you tonight and trying to help people get better and smarter every night. Michael Lewis, thank you so much joining us, joining me, I appreciate it.
LEWIS: Thanks for having me.
RUHLE: Coming up, we are investigating the story of a Tennessee nurse that became the target for anti-vaxxers and absolutely crazy conspiracy theories when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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[23:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Welcome to one of the internet`s weirdest obsessions, a nurse who got the COVID vaccine in front of T.V. news cameras.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry, I`m feeling really dizzy. I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I look at the photographer like, what is going on? And then she faints like into their arms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel fine now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her name is Tiffany Pontes Dover, and she was totally fine, except for one problem, the internet didn`t believe it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RUHLE: Do you have the chills? I do. Misinformation has spread almost as fast as the virus during the pandemic, and it is not always easy to track the lies back to their source. Take the case of this Tennessee nurse, Tiffany Dover, when she fainted after getting one of the first COVID vaccines, the rumors spread quickly. Those short moments caught on camera were spun up by conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers to try to scare people away from a lifesaving vaccine.
Well, our own Brandy Zadrozny. You know her as the world class reporter covering misinformation, extremism, and the internet, which is why she needed to dig into this almost unbelievable story.
[23:50:00]
And she has laid it all out in an amazing new podcast, Tiffany Dover is Dead, which drops Monday.
Brandy is here with us live. This is unbelievable. This podcast is about Tiffany but it is about so much more, isn`t it?
BRANDY ZADROZNY, NBC NEWS SENIOR REPORTER: This story is really small, when you think about it. A single nurse, she fainted, she got back up, she was fine, she went back to work. But it set off this chain of events that really stands in for a larger problem of misinformation and conspiracy thinking overall. I mean, this happened in a moment when all eyes were on these live streams. You remember it when we were seeing all the nurses and doctors get the vaccine for the first time.
So, when this happened it was one anti-vaxxer literally called it a gift from the gods. This is what they were waiting for and they blew it up so much.
RUHLE: Okay. But straight out of the gate, reputable sources has said, no, no, no, she is fine. Let`s move on. Why didn`t that take hold?
ZADROZNY: Stories are really powerful. And when we want to believe them, as conspiracy theorists do and as anti-vaxxers do, it can be really hard to debunk those ideas.
Now to be fair, adding to this whole problem is the hospital and the response, right? It wasn`t — it was just not a great response to a conspiracy theory. It was sort of strange. Well, the response was that they sort of took her back out and put her on a stairway with a bunch of other nurses. No one talked, she was wearing a mask during sort of proof of life video. It was very strange.
And then, of course, the people who are watching this said, oh my God, that`s not her, it`s a body double. And so that furthered the conspiracy theory.
And you just saw the ball rolling down the hill, this thing they call anticipatory disinformation and it went sort of went wild.
RUHLE: Okay, but you have now clearly gone down this path and debunked it. Have you convinced anyone who deeply believed she was dead? Have you convinced anyone that, no, she is alive and kicking?
ZADROZNY: Yes. I think, yes, I have definitely so far, over the last six months that I have been really, really in this story. I have definitely convinced people who I would say we`re dabblers, who maybe started a Facebook group, where is Tiffany Dover, or started a website. Yes, I have some.
RUHLE: Hold on, if you started a Facebook group, Where is Tiffany Dover, I`m going to make it clear, you are more than just a dabbler.
ZADROZNY: I think so. But during the pandemic, the world sort of lost its minds. I mean, the lady who was started that was the lady in Utah. She was engaged, life ahead of her, wasn`t really into these things before. The pandemic really did drive everybody sort of crazy.
I mean, conspiracy theories grow in times of turmoil, when we`re confused, when we`re overwhelmed, when we need answers. And for a lot of us during the pandemic, we all sort of felt that way. And that`s another reason why the story just sort of took off.
RUHLE: Okay, I know I am out of time but Tiffany Dover still live in her town, going to the hospital everyday to work. Does she know that this podcast exists?
ZADROZNY: She does. She does know the podcast exists.
RUHLE: But she hasn`t spoken.
ZADROZNY: We`ll all wait for that together.
RUHLE: Which means you are all going to need to listen to this podcast, Tiffany Dover is Dead, except she is not.
Brandy Zadrozny, congratulations. I cannot wait to listen. Tiffany Dover is Dead drops on Monday wherever you get your podcasts. You are going to want to listen.
Coming up, an update on the effort to feed desperate refugees after eight weeks of war. We are going to hear from a very familiar volunteer on the frontlines when THE 11TH HOUR continues.
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RUHLE: The last thing before we go tonight, making sure no one goes hungry. Since the start of the war in Ukraine, 52 days ago, World Central Kitchen has been on the frontlines, feeding the exhausted refugees as they try to find their way to safety.
Those volunteers have already served more than 10 million meals at nearly 2,000 distribution sites across the war-ravaged region. The founder of World Central Kitchen, well known Chef Jose Andreas, has been there from the beginning.
And earlier today, on MORNING JOE, he described what it has been like trying to get meals where they needed most.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSE ANDRES, FOUNDER, WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN: We were 15 hours in Bucha, in Irpin. The teams from World Central Kitchen kept moving north, we tracked, bringing hundreds of thousands of pounds of food, and or hot meals because sometimes people do not have gas to cook, and they prefer at the beginning to get fresh, cooked meals. But as slowly as things begun becoming normal until the supermarkets reopen again, and the chain of distribution goes back to normal, we are at little bit like impromptu supermarkets.
We arrived to a neighborhood, we open the trucks, we share whatever food we have. Everybody picks and chooses what they want and we going back every day.
This is the situation we face sometimes. There is no way we are going to be able to help people or fight their hunger without certain risk. When we went to Bucha, we knew there were mines all over. Beyond everything else, we found there maybe even more troops near Bucha. Because it used this city and there are always risks. These are the risks watching a person, and now there person that their inside base, who has barely had anything to eat, giving you the biggest hug in history. I think those risks are worth it. We need to be next to the people that need us the most. In this case are those Ukrainian suffering this unjust war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RUHLE: Chef Jose Andreas, who says it is worth the risks to be rewarded with the hugs. I am hoping to score a few of those hugs next week because I will not be here at the anchor desk with you. I am headed to Poland tomorrow with my son, where we will be volunteering at World Central Kitchen`s Polish headquarters and hoping that we can help provide meals for Ukrainian refugees in the region. So, I will not be seeing you next week, but when I come back, I will tell you all about it.
And on that note, I wish you a good night and a great weekend. Be safe, be good. I will see you soon. From all of our colleagues across the networks.